Login required to started new threads

Login required to post replies

Prev Next
Re: How Many minutes did Ryf Lose without an Aero Lid [japarker24] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
Yes, hence the word almost.
Chrissie didn't get any for ~10 minutes despite being in the lead. You can't count on it.

I bet Jan wasn't counting on it.

japarker24 wrote:

Neutral support is almost never available


Except for the fact that it was available for Frodeno on Saturday.......



Kat Hunter reports on the San Dimas Stage Race from inside the GC winning team
Aeroweenie.com -Compendium of Aero Data and Knowledge
Freelance sports & outdoors writer Kathryn Hunter
Quote Reply
Re: How Many minutes did Ryf Lose without an Aero Lid [devashish_paul] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
Don't forget the psychological effect - if you think it is hotter, you feel hotter; and, if you think it gains 3 minutes, it probably will.

David
* Ironman for Life! (Blog) * IM Everyday Hero Video * Daggett Shuler Law *
Disclaimer: I have personal and professional relationships with many athletes, vendors, and organizations in the triathlon world.
Quote Reply
Re: How Many minutes did Ryf Lose without an Aero Lid [devashish_paul] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
devashish_paul wrote:
Since we're talking about Frodo's T2 and at the end of the day Ryf lost by 2 minutes, what would an aero lid be worth? It's fine if you are Chrissie and can run 2:52, maybe you don't want to give away the aero lid savings if you are running 3:05+ range

I have read the thread up to this point and all the mathematics which I am sure is correct. I would certainly have her on a deeper back wheel and probably a better tri-suit. But I would phrase your question differently. How many minutes did she loose without an aero lid - or how many minutes did she gain using a traditional road helmet?

Call me stupid I am sure many on the thread here on in will but from experience in hot humid races I go well with a traditional lid. Aero lids can be very poor on physical performance in this respect, and only experience knows which is right - not always mathematics.

http://mobile.twitter.com/BLambTriathlete
Athlete of the Week
Meet the Team
Headwear
Quote Reply
Re: How Many minutes did Ryf Lose without an Aero Lid [david] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
Quote Reply
Re: How Many minutes did Ryf Lose without an Aero Lid [jackmott] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
Ryf just robbed us of seeing Mirinda run a 2.47 and outrun all the field but 1. That's unforgivable.
Quote Reply
Re: How Many minutes did Ryf Lose without an Aero Lid [chaparral] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
chaparral wrote:
I addition to the helmet, her bike set up could use some work. Why for the love of god did she have a bike pump electrical taped to the her seatpost?

Her coach is the same that Chrissie had, Co2 and neutral support nearly kept her from being unbeaten at Kona. Learn to use it, sure but she's said in multiple interviews that he likes to keep things simple.

Luckily we have the internet where everyone is a monday morning quarterback and apparently should be a professional coach for multiple champions. He has tens of thousands of dollars on the line for that race alone and is so stupid that he's using a helmet that my local tri shop wouldn't sell to a noob.. for no reason. sure....
Quote Reply
Re: How Many minutes did Ryf Lose without Aero Lid [devashish_paul] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
So basically what you're saying is that you'll take their findings as some sort of fact, but are completely comfortable with excluding all of the myriad of confounding factors that their "study" leaves out. Right, gotcha, makes total sense.

I love it when people let their opinions and N=1 experience get in the way of science and fact.

Bob
Quote Reply
Re: How Many minutes did Ryf Lose without an Aero Lid [chris948] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
Sutton has been know to make questionable decisions sometimes, yes.
I'd use him for training but Steinmetz for bike setup.
=)

chris948 wrote:
Luckily we have the internet where everyone is a monday morning quarterback and apparently should be a professional coach for multiple champions. He has tens of thousands of dollars on the line for that race alone and is so stupid that he's using a helmet that my local tri shop wouldn't sell to a noob.. for no reason. sure....



Kat Hunter reports on the San Dimas Stage Race from inside the GC winning team
Aeroweenie.com -Compendium of Aero Data and Knowledge
Freelance sports & outdoors writer Kathryn Hunter
Quote Reply
Re: How Many minutes did Ryf Lose without an Aero Lid [chris948] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
chris948 wrote:
chaparral wrote:
I addition to the helmet, her bike set up could use some work. Why for the love of god did she have a bike pump electrical taped to the her seatpost?


Her coach is the same that Chrissie had, Co2 and neutral support nearly kept her from being unbeaten at Kona. Learn to use it, sure but she's said in multiple interviews that he likes to keep things simple.

Luckily we have the internet where everyone is a monday morning quarterback and apparently should be a professional coach for multiple champions. He has tens of thousands of dollars on the line for that race alone and is so stupid that he's using a helmet that my local tri shop wouldn't sell to a noob.. for no reason. sure....

Is CO2 really that much harder to use than a pump? Could she not spend an hour or two sometime practicing with CO2? C02 is simpler in many ways than a pump. This is not exactly rocket science. Sure Chrissy had problems, but then the lesson is to practice using CO2, not every one carry a hand pump.

Notice how both the mens and the womans woman this year and the previous year, and many of the years before, wore aero helmets. I guess they were dumb for doing it? The thing is that Brett Sutton has only one reason, he thinks that an aero helmet would be too hot. He just thinks that. That is the only reason. He does not testing and has nothing to back it up. If he had his athletes do tests with aero helmets and compare it to a road helmet, I would at least give him a bit of credit. But there is no testing like this with him. He could have his athletes in the lead up do an ironman effort in Kona conditions with an internal thermometer and see if their internal pressure actually increases. I am surprised that he just does not have all his athletes change their legal names to Chrissy, because that name worked before.

How much money did he lose by not having the winner of the race?
Quote Reply
Re: How Many minutes did Ryf Lose without Aero Lid [Nick B] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
Nick B wrote:
3-4mins

I might agree with that if it was an individual TT. But wasn't she part of the women's train that was 2nd pack out of the water? It wasn't until she took the lead that we were able to see her riding alone somewhere along the back half of the course where she could take full advantage of any aero gains.

So I would say an aero lid would have only netted her 2 minutes and 2 seconds.
Quote Reply
Re: How Many minutes did Ryf Lose without an Aero Lid [chaparral] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
chaparral wrote:
The thing is that Brett Sutton has only one reason, he thinks that an aero helmet would be too hot. He just thinks that. That is the only reason.
chaparral wrote:
He does not testing and has nothing to back it up. If he had his athletes do tests with aero helmets and compare it to a road helmet,

Any sources for this? You're putting words in a guys mouth and accusing him of not backing up his methods, when you are in fact, not backing up anything.

I'd like to see your sources, for all I know he has actually tested it and instead of mouthing off on the internet, goes back to making money.
Quote Reply
Re: How Many minutes did Ryf Lose without an Aero Lid [jackmott] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
jackmott wrote:
Yes, hence the word almost.
Chrissie didn't get any for ~10 minutes despite being in the lead. You can't count on it.

I bet Jan wasn't counting on it.

Did she get neutral support? I didn't think she did, which I always thought was a little strange as far as the rules go.
Quote Reply
Re: How Many minutes did Ryf Lose without an Aero Lid [chris948] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
He also had Chrissie W ride a P2 instead of a P3 because it "fit better".
The fit could have been duplicated with a single spacer on a P3.

Camp Sutton believed this would be slower than the P2, which is false.

A lot of sutton's decisions for Wellington made sense, because she was so fast there was no point risking any chance of a DNF. But the P2 thing didn't make sense even for her =)

chris948 wrote:
I'd like to see your sources, for all I know he has actually tested it and instead of mouthing off on the internet, goes back to making money.



Kat Hunter reports on the San Dimas Stage Race from inside the GC winning team
Aeroweenie.com -Compendium of Aero Data and Knowledge
Freelance sports & outdoors writer Kathryn Hunter
Quote Reply
Re: How Many minutes did Ryf Lose without an Aero Lid [chris948] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
There are only so many vehicles, if they aren't around you, they aren't around you.

chris948 wrote:
Did she get neutral support? I didn't think she did, which I always thought was a little strange as far as the rules go.



Kat Hunter reports on the San Dimas Stage Race from inside the GC winning team
Aeroweenie.com -Compendium of Aero Data and Knowledge
Freelance sports & outdoors writer Kathryn Hunter
Quote Reply
Re: How Many minutes did Ryf Lose without an Aero Lid [chris948] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
chris948 wrote:
chaparral wrote:

The thing is that Brett Sutton has only one reason, he thinks that an aero helmet would be too hot. He just thinks that. That is the only reason.

chaparral wrote:

He does not testing and has nothing to back it up. If he had his athletes do tests with aero helmets and compare it to a road helmet,


Any sources for this? You're putting words in a guys mouth and accusing him of not backing up his methods, when you are in fact, not backing up anything.

I'd like to see your sources, for all I know he has actually tested it and instead of mouthing off on the internet, goes back to making money.

If you look for interviews with his athletes that ask why they are using a road helmet, you will say because their coach told them to. Absolutely no mention of testing. If you have any source that this is an informed descion, feel free to provide it. Notice that Mirinda switched to an aero helmet when she switched coaches from Sutton.

This is also someone that does not allow his woman athletes to use disk wheels.
Quote Reply
Re: How Many minutes did Ryf Lose without an Aero Lid [jackmott] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
jackmott wrote:
There are only so many vehicles, if they aren't around you, they aren't around you.

chris948 wrote:

Did she get neutral support? I didn't think she did, which I always thought was a little strange as far as the rules go.

Sorry, I meant getting a cartridge from a fellow competitor seemed strange, wasn't implying anything conspiracy related.
Quote Reply
Re: How Many minutes did Ryf Lose without an Aero Lid [chris948] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
Yeah, the rules say no outside assistance.
I think generally it is interpreted to mean other competitors are not 'outside'


chris948 wrote:
Sorry, I meant getting a cartridge from a fellow competitor seemed strange, wasn't implying anything conspiracy related.



Kat Hunter reports on the San Dimas Stage Race from inside the GC winning team
Aeroweenie.com -Compendium of Aero Data and Knowledge
Freelance sports & outdoors writer Kathryn Hunter
Quote Reply
Re: How Many minutes did Ryf Lose without Aero Lid [jackmott] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
jackmott wrote:
Some counterpoints:

>That study was done with cyclists that, over 12k, put out more power than just about any pro ironman cyclist does, and thus producing more heat as well.

>That study was done in a 102 degF room, much hotter than Kona

>That study was done with a fan producing a wind speed of 6 to 8mph, much less than you would get in kona

>That study was done with a Giro Selector, with the visor on, which is a worst case scenario. One could hedge their bets by taking the visor off, or using a helmet like the Evade

Counter-counterpoint

Humidity? (can't find the full text).

Humidity has a humongous effect on the efficiency of evaporative-convective cooling.

I'd much rather ride 102F in desert humidity than 90F in a Kona sauna.
Last edited by: trail: Oct 13, 14 11:13
Quote Reply
Re: How Many minutes did Ryf Lose without Aero Lid [trail] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
trail wrote:

I'd much rather ride 102F in desert humidity than 90F in a Kona sauna.

Not me.

The dry air is more "desiccating" to me and just makes me feel like I'm in a convection oven. With humidity and a light layer of sweat, ANY small breeze (which one SHOULD be making while riding, no?) feels cooling.

Now then, when stopped and with no breeze on your skin...that's a whole 'nuther story ;-)

http://bikeblather.blogspot.com/
Quote Reply
Re: How Many minutes did Ryf Lose without Aero Lid [trail] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
Quote Reply
Re: How Many minutes did Ryf Lose without an Aero Lid [Francois] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
Francois wrote:
Ryf just robbed us of seeing Mirinda run a 2.47 and outrun all the field but 1. That's unforgivable.
Might be the best quote in this thread. Imagine if she outran everyone but Ivan Rana and still finished 2nd!
Quote Reply
Re: How Many minutes did Ryf Lose without Aero Lid [Macho Grande] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
Macho Grande wrote:
So basically what you're saying is that you'll take their findings as some sort of fact, but are completely comfortable with excluding all of the myriad of confounding factors that their "study" leaves out. Right, gotcha, makes total sense.

I love it when people let their opinions and N=1 experience get in the way of science and fact.

Bob

Hi Bob, I think it is more than N=1. We have a ton of field testing now from Kona going back over a decade. As I pointed out in another post on this thread, since Normann's first win in Kona (2004), every winner has worn an aero helmet other than Crowie in 2008 and 2009. Crowie flipped to full aero gear in 2011 after Macca showed up in 2010 with full aero setup (fast helmet, wheels, tires and bike) and took the win. Men inherently generate much more heat than women because they are larger and riding at higher wattage. A rider riding at 300W will generate around 1200W of heat, while a pro woman riding around 200W will generate only 800W of heat. The pro man has to dissipate 400W extra over a pro woman. If anyone would be penalized with aero helmets it is the pro men and they have all adopted wearing aero lids in Kona (or at least non vented stubby helmets).
Quote Reply
Re: How Many minutes did Ryf Lose without Aero Lid [Nick B] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
Nick B wrote:
The head represents a small surface area of the body and transfers a very small amount of heat. Studies have consistently shown that wearing a non ventilated helmet does not increase internal body temperature.

This was simply a poor equipment choice that cost her the race.

Carfrae wore an aero helmet.

Please point me to the study. I would like to learn. At this point, I disagree entirely and if you have some reasonable evidence, I would love to learn. I melted a few times under the aero helmet, but it may have been my imagination based on your suggestion.
Quote Reply
Re: How Many minutes did Ryf Lose without an Aero Lid [devashish_paul] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
devashish_paul wrote:
Since we're talking about Frodo's T2 and at the end of the day Ryf lost by 2 minutes, what would an aero lid be worth? It's fine if you are Chrissie and can run 2:52, maybe you don't want to give away the aero lid savings if you are running 3:05+ range

While she may have given time by not wearing one during cycling leg, mismanaging body core temp manifests itself later on the run, where losses are much more than 3min. Just my 2cents.
Quote Reply
Re: How Many minutes did Ryf Lose without Aero Lid [atasic] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
This is the only controlled study I know of:
http://www.researchgate.net/...a_traditional_helmet

Craig did some field testing:
http://triathlon.competitor.com/...ro-helmet-test_63574

The melting may have been real, but perhaps you would have melted in any helmet on that day?

Either way I think some very sensible 'safe bets' exist today, such as the Specialized Evade.


atasic wrote:
Please point me to the study. I would like to learn. At this point, I disagree entirely and if you have some reasonable evidence, I would love to learn. I melted a few times under the aero helmet, but it may have been my imagination based on your suggestion.



Kat Hunter reports on the San Dimas Stage Race from inside the GC winning team
Aeroweenie.com -Compendium of Aero Data and Knowledge
Freelance sports & outdoors writer Kathryn Hunter
Quote Reply

Prev Next