You haven't learned how to do that math yet?

I get ~3 minutes over 180k assuming same effort and a .010m^2 CdA difference (~difference between a typical road helmet and an "aero road" helmet like an Evade)

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http://bikeblather.blogspot.com/

3-4mins

She seemed to be overheating on the run. An aero lid may have done her more harm than good. Maybe she knew that.

Thanks! I knew that was the range, just checking in to see if it would have given her the race win assuming she can thermally regulate for the run. Seems to work fine for Kienle Carfrae and and many more.

The head represents a small surface area of the body and transfers a very small amount of heat. Studies have consistently shown that wearing a non ventilated helmet does not increase internal body temperature.

This was simply a poor equipment choice that cost her the race.

Carfrae wore an aero helmet.

You can follow that theory but I think it can cause overheating.

That jersey wasn't doing her any favors either. Sutto is her coach and he has always be notoriously curmudgeonly about euipment choices.

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Heath Dotson
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It's not a theory, it's evidence.

Exactly what i was thinking as well. Easily gave up 0.7-1s/km compared to something better fitting/aero like the top 3 men wore on the bike.

 I've trained on hot days and raced on hot days and I get more sweat running off my head and onto my glasses using my regular ventilated helmet than I do with my aero helmet. I can't think of a single time that I've felt hot from it. Granted, I haven't raced in Kona...

my n=1.

I train in the deep South. Humidity is the killer. I melt in a non-vented helmet. I melt in a vented helmet, just not as much. They are faster no doubt, but to say that certain individuals that have a tendency to overheat might not be adversely affected with a non-vented helmet isn't realistic in my opinion.

There is a difference between over-heating and the perceptionthat you are over-heating.

If someone thinks they are over-heating, they will likely slow up or adjust their power output. You can't assume that their power would have been the same.

Could she have gone 2-3 minutes faster? Absolutely. Would she have done that? No one knows.

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It doesn't appear she has a particular helmet sponsor, so there would be nothing preventing her from utilizing at least a "stealth aero" helmet like a Specialized Evade, a Giro Synthe, or an LG Course, all of which have plenty of venting.

The 3 minute estimate I made above was in respect to one of those types of helmets. Tack on another 1.5 minutes or so for a full aero lid...like the male and female winners both wore ;-)

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http://bikeblather.blogspot.com/

I know what you are saying. Macca and Crowie both wore vented road helmets in the past. Macca never won Kona until he wore an aero helmet in 2007. In that year, Macca ran 2:42. Crowie finished 2 min behind him and wore a vented helmet. In 2008 Crowie won wearing a vented helmet. Same thing in 2009. 2010, Macca came totally decked out in all the aero gear he could get including aero helmet and won. Crowie wore vented that year. Next year Crowie shows up with the full "HOLY SHIV" set up...aero everything and sets the course record and actually won the race on the bike. Ralaert and Jacobs ran faster but could not close the gap.

Since Chrissie, all the women's races have been won on rides with aero helmets...Rinny + Cave.

Since 2000 I am pretty sure that the only guys to win Kona on a vented helmets were Crowie (2008, 2009) and Tim de Boom. Peter Reid, Stadler, Faris, Macca, Jacobs, Crowie (2011), Kienle all on aero helmets. Van Lierde wore a stubby helmet for Kona last year. Not sure what you count that in.

Show me this studies, please. Show me the peer reviewed, scientifically sound, randomized studies that show a person in a non-vented helmet does not increase internal body temperature.

Eight people in 30 years at Kona have gone to the ICU with heat stroke. The last one (2013) was wearing a vented road helmet. Maybe, just maybe this is an individual issue.

But nonetheless go get me those studies and make sure they're not someone's blog or pontificating. Scientifically sound, peer reviewed studies. Go ahead and grab them, I'll wait.

Bob

Don't be lazy

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed

But look at the Crowie example....how much testing did he do w/ Mat Steimatz before Kona to test body temperatures, etc. swallowing the transmitter so they could measure core temperature, etc.

It took a lot of work to get him last his perception that he would overheat with an aero lid.

I'm not saying she shouldn't have worn an aero lid (she should have). I just don't think you can assume the same power output when doing the post-game analysis.

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Chicago Cubs - 2016 WORLD SERIES Champions!!!!

"If ever the time should come, when vain and aspiring men shall possess the highest seats in government, our country will stand in need of its experienced patriots to prevent its ruin." - Samuel Adams

>Studies have consistently shown that wearing a non ventilated helmet does not increase internal body temperature.

I'm not that impressed with those studies. The conditions generally did not reflect the length of an IM (12K TT, etc), relatively mild heat stress, small sample sizes, and narrowly defined conditions (one Specialized helmet vs. one Giro TT helmet that's probably one of the better-vented TT helmets out there, etc).

I'm not saying they're "wrong," just saying that after reading those I'm not telling myself, "Well, damn, *that's* settled."

However, my n=1 is that my best performance of the year (cycling) was a 20-minute solo breakaway in 90-degree heat with a Giro Attack, not the most ventilated helmet.

Get em yourself ya lazy bugger..... ;)

Not the most aero either according to many people who've tested it in the wind tunnel.

 
>Not the most aero either according to many people who've tested it in the wind tunnel.

OK, going slightly off-topic, do you know what's one of the better road aero helmets that's not the Evade? (the shop I race for will not let me ride Specialized).

Not lazy, just wanted to see if you would post something newer than eight years old using dummies in a wind tunnel wearing wigs...or when studied in an event longer that a 12km TT.

Bob

LG Course

I've been hearing a lot of people say it feels like the most ventilated helmet they've ever worn.

Get the Specialized, put McDonalds, Burger King, KFC, Jack in the Box and Taco Bell stickers over everyplace it says Specialized.

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BC Don
Pain is temporary, not giving it your all lasts all Winter.

Ryf could've won Kona if she wore an aero helmet!

;0)

I can't help but think that for this level of athlete and that level of coach, she almost certainly tried the aero helmet in long training race prep rides, and for whatever reason (?position, ?comfort), ending up not being advantageous for her compared to a regular helmet.

I always wonder the same sort of thing. These are pro athletes. It's not like they don't have access to the latest info and gear, like all of us champs here on slowtwitch! :)

I wonder what Rappstar's take on it is??

I'm assuming that's pink. :)

Sure, maybe she saves a couple minutes. But it sure seems like Rinny was gonna run her down no matter what. We have no idea if she could have kicked it into another gear throughout the run if Ryf was another minute or two ahead.

I'm guessing she could have.

Isn't Ryf a lot...lot...larger athlete than rinny? I think Potts's performance was damn...really damn impressive given the conditions.

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I am pretty sure that her coach, Brett Sutton, makes that decision without any data or testing to back up decision. So no, there was no testing to see if it would actually cause her to even feel hotter.

Some new data (and statements below from) on aero road helmets found here: http://lavamagazine.com/...he-aero-road-helmet/
Most of the article is about the new Giro Synthe. One interesting paragraph in referring aero drag numbers:

And in their aero test (Wind average drag at 25 miles per hour in a ‘head-up” head tilt at 30 degrees), the Synthe came up with a drag number of 350.6 grams of drag. Comparatively, the Giro Air Attack 358.9 grams of drag.
And “Competitor A” “Competitor B” and “Competitor C?”
The other helmets tested were the Specialized Evade aero road helmet (359.2g), the Louis Garneau Corse aero road helmet (360.5g), the Poc Octal (378.8g), the Specialized Prevail road helmet (380.1g) and the Bontrager Oracle (380.5g).

The difference between the current Giro Air Attack -Specialized Evade-Louis Garneau Couse helmets are just under 2 grams via Giro testing standards (30 degree head angle). How does this compare to the aero road lids? Giro said the Air Attack was 16 grams better than the Synthe in drag with head down at a 60-degree head angle (a typical head-down position we hold in the course of an Ironman.

Theory is a hypotheses that has undergone and can undergo repeatable testing to prove it's value. So saying it is a theory was actually playing to your argument and is formed through evidence. For example, the 'Theory of Evolution' isn't just guesswork.

Small point, a bit pedantic, but worth making I feel.

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-bobo

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"What's good for me ain't necessarily good for the weak-minded."

A few questions:

1. Can someone from Specialized and LG corroborate these Giro numbers on their helmets
2. What is meant by 30 degrees head up
3. Is there any relationship to shoulders that plays into the 30 degrees head up. For example in the case of Kienle, his entire head is lower than his shoulders. In the case of Ryf, with head down, her head is lower than her shoulders and tucked in between upper arms. Carfree's head is always above shoulders.

The Evade is vented =)

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Kat Hunter reports on the San Dimas Stage Race from inside the GC winning team
Aeroweenie.com -Compendium of Aero Data and Knowledge
Freelance sports & outdoors writer Kathryn Hunter

here:
http://www.researchgate.net/...a_traditional_helmet

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Kat Hunter reports on the San Dimas Stage Race from inside the GC winning team
Aeroweenie.com -Compendium of Aero Data and Knowledge
Freelance sports & outdoors writer Kathryn Hunter

Jack:

That is the exact article I was referencing and I would argue it has ZERO applicability to long course triathlons since they performed their assessment using a 12k TT on a very small group of 10 athletes. Is it a good start, sure, but to say, as someone did, that this article established a scientific fact is utterly absurd.

Bob

It was meant to be in Pink.

But after looking at her setup on the bike, I have to admit there should be some upgrades. Sutton athletes don't seem to wear Aero Helmets in Kona, Chrissie never did in Kona, I am sure he thinks there is a disadvantage due to the heat, get her an aero helmet

Also the wheel setup not what you would see from a Uber Biker, the HED wheels I think are JET 6 in front and rear, either way the same wheel. Should be a JET-6 in front and JET-9 in rear setup or a like setup from ZIP.

And get the girl a proper race Kit.

Some counterpoints:

That study was done with cyclists that, over 12k, put out more power than just about any pro ironman cyclist does, and thus producing more heat as well.

That study was done in a 102 degF room, much hotter than Kona

That study was done with a fan producing a wind speed of 6 to 8mph, much less than you would get in kona

That study was done with a Giro Selector, with the visor on, which is a worst case scenario. One could hedge their bets by taking the visor off, or using a helmet like the Evade

Combine that with the real world experiments of Rinny and Craig, and I would suggest using an aero helmet, *especially* for Ryf, who was doing about ~225 watts average would have been producing about 17,000 less joules of heat per minute than the top pro men

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Kat Hunter reports on the San Dimas Stage Race from inside the GC winning team
Aeroweenie.com -Compendium of Aero Data and Knowledge
Freelance sports & outdoors writer Kathryn Hunter

My personal observation is anything that becomes an issue after 5+ hours at low intensity, I can find out in 10-20 minutes at super high intensity. My inclination is that I'll take what they found out in this short duration. The ONLY thing that they would be unable to test is the impact of any potential "heat distress" feeling (not actual core temp rise, but perceived) on the desire to ingest calories over a long race. On the other hand, an athlete may be more diligent about his/her liquid and electrolyte consumption.

Dev

Yeah, the study did not that people *felt* hotter whether or not they were. This didn't stop them from doing the same watts, but a lot of people worry about perception as reality.

I like to have the goal of defeating perception rather than being a slave to it =)

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Kat Hunter reports on the San Dimas Stage Race from inside the GC winning team
Aeroweenie.com -Compendium of Aero Data and Knowledge
Freelance sports & outdoors writer Kathryn Hunter

What about on the run? Some wear visors, some hats, some nothing. Some wear full sleeves, some short sleeves, some sleeveless. Personally I "feel" hotter in a cap and prefer a visor, although some would argue a cap with your neck covered is actually cooler. I think performance can be influenced by how an athlete feels. If I am convinced I am hotter with a cap or aero lid it may influence my performance.

Conquer your feelings.

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Kat Hunter reports on the San Dimas Stage Race from inside the GC winning team
Aeroweenie.com -Compendium of Aero Data and Knowledge
Freelance sports & outdoors writer Kathryn Hunter

I addition to the helmet, her bike set up could use some work. Why for the love of god did she have a bike pump electrical taped to the her seatpost? The seat post is a great aero shape that will produce lots of lift in yaw, and she goes and messes it up with a bike pump? Plus, she should have neutral support anyway right? Even if she does not have neutral support, CO2 is much faster than a pump anyway. Also, why does she have a square bento box velco'd in front of her seat post? Her IA has space for a spares in the frame and a separate compartment for nutrition. Mirinda's set up had all her spares inside the frame.

Her coach is Brett Sutton
I guess Sutton though she could bike fast enough to win with a bike pump attached to the frame, and it was worth having less risk on course in case of a flat.

Neutral support is almost never available

Of course you could learn to use a co2.

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Kat Hunter reports on the San Dimas Stage Race from inside the GC winning team
Aeroweenie.com -Compendium of Aero Data and Knowledge
Freelance sports & outdoors writer Kathryn Hunter

Nah.. Rinny would just have run faster and caught her later. We don't know how fast Runny can run but I am betting it is even faster than 2:50.

Since she didn't collapse at the line... I believe she had another 60-90 seconds in her over the last 10k if needed... but probably not much more.

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TrainingBible Coaching
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More from the Lava Magazine:
this is what the 30 degree angle looks like in the testing chamber:

full view:

In this Lava magazine article it is mentioned that four windtunnels were utilized for testing: University of Washington and British Columbia, FASTER in Scottsdale Arizona and Giro's in house setup. A thermal test of 30 minutes at all 73F was performed and the article's authors noted a "large" difference (exact numbers not stated) between the Giro aero Selector helmet and the new aero road Synthe.

I have no connections with any bicycle, helmet or other company. Yes it would be an interesting read if we could get additional data or even independent examination of the new aero road helmets and compared to the full aero triathlon/time trial helmets.

  

Neutral support is almost never available

Frodeno was probably grateful......

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Pink? Maybe. Maybe not. You decide.

Yes, hence the word almost.
Chrissie didn't get any for ~10 minutes despite being in the lead. You can't count on it.

I bet Jan wasn't counting on it.

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Kat Hunter reports on the San Dimas Stage Race from inside the GC winning team
Aeroweenie.com -Compendium of Aero Data and Knowledge
Freelance sports & outdoors writer Kathryn Hunter

Don't forget the psychological effect - if you think it is hotter, you feel hotter; and, if you think it gains 3 minutes, it probably will.

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David
* Ironman for Life! (Blog) * IM Everyday Hero Video * Daggett Shuler Law *
Disclaimer: I have personal and professional relationships with many athletes, vendors, and organizations in the triathlon world.

I have read the thread up to this point and all the mathematics which I am sure is correct. I would certainly have her on a deeper back wheel and probably a better tri-suit. But I would phrase your question differently. How many minutes did she loose without an aero lid - or how many minutes did she gain using a traditional road helmet?

Call me stupid I am sure many on the thread here on in will but from experience in hot humid races I go well with a traditional lid. Aero lids can be very poor on physical performance in this respect, and only experience knows which is right - not always mathematics.

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I wish that were true, but it isn't.

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Kat Hunter reports on the San Dimas Stage Race from inside the GC winning team
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Freelance sports & outdoors writer Kathryn Hunter

Ryf just robbed us of seeing Mirinda run a 2.47 and outrun all the field but 1. That's unforgivable.

Her coach is the same that Chrissie had, Co2 and neutral support nearly kept her from being unbeaten at Kona. Learn to use it, sure but she's said in multiple interviews that he likes to keep things simple.

Luckily we have the internet where everyone is a monday morning quarterback and apparently should be a professional coach for multiple champions. He has tens of thousands of dollars on the line for that race alone and is so stupid that he's using a helmet that my local tri shop wouldn't sell to a noob.. for no reason. sure....

So basically what you're saying is that you'll take their findings as some sort of fact, but are completely comfortable with excluding all of the myriad of confounding factors that their "study" leaves out. Right, gotcha, makes total sense.

I love it when people let their opinions and N=1 experience get in the way of science and fact.

Bob

Sutton has been know to make questionable decisions sometimes, yes.
I'd use him for training but Steinmetz for bike setup.
=)

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Kat Hunter reports on the San Dimas Stage Race from inside the GC winning team
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Freelance sports & outdoors writer Kathryn Hunter

Is CO2 really that much harder to use than a pump? Could she not spend an hour or two sometime practicing with CO2? C02 is simpler in many ways than a pump. This is not exactly rocket science. Sure Chrissy had problems, but then the lesson is to practice using CO2, not every one carry a hand pump.

Notice how both the mens and the womans woman this year and the previous year, and many of the years before, wore aero helmets. I guess they were dumb for doing it? The thing is that Brett Sutton has only one reason, he thinks that an aero helmet would be too hot. He just thinks that. That is the only reason. He does not testing and has nothing to back it up. If he had his athletes do tests with aero helmets and compare it to a road helmet, I would at least give him a bit of credit. But there is no testing like this with him. He could have his athletes in the lead up do an ironman effort in Kona conditions with an internal thermometer and see if their internal pressure actually increases. I am surprised that he just does not have all his athletes change their legal names to Chrissy, because that name worked before.

How much money did he lose by not having the winner of the race?

I might agree with that if it was an individual TT. But wasn't she part of the women's train that was 2nd pack out of the water? It wasn't until she took the lead that we were able to see her riding alone somewhere along the back half of the course where she could take full advantage of any aero gains.

So I would say an aero lid would have only netted her 2 minutes and 2 seconds.

Any sources for this? You're putting words in a guys mouth and accusing him of not backing up his methods, when you are in fact, not backing up anything.

I'd like to see your sources, for all I know he has actually tested it and instead of mouthing off on the internet, goes back to making money.

Did she get neutral support? I didn't think she did, which I always thought was a little strange as far as the rules go.

He also had Chrissie W ride a P2 instead of a P3 because it "fit better".
The fit could have been duplicated with a single spacer on a P3.

Camp Sutton believed this would be slower than the P2, which is false.

A lot of sutton's decisions for Wellington made sense, because she was so fast there was no point risking any chance of a DNF. But the P2 thing didn't make sense even for her =)

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Kat Hunter reports on the San Dimas Stage Race from inside the GC winning team
Aeroweenie.com -Compendium of Aero Data and Knowledge
Freelance sports & outdoors writer Kathryn Hunter

There are only so many vehicles, if they aren't around you, they aren't around you.

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Kat Hunter reports on the San Dimas Stage Race from inside the GC winning team
Aeroweenie.com -Compendium of Aero Data and Knowledge
Freelance sports & outdoors writer Kathryn Hunter

If you look for interviews with his athletes that ask why they are using a road helmet, you will say because their coach told them to. Absolutely no mention of testing. If you have any source that this is an informed descion, feel free to provide it. Notice that Mirinda switched to an aero helmet when she switched coaches from Sutton.

This is also someone that does not allow his woman athletes to use disk wheels.

Sorry, I meant getting a cartridge from a fellow competitor seemed strange, wasn't implying anything conspiracy related.

Yeah, the rules say no outside assistance.
I think generally it is interpreted to mean other competitors are not 'outside'

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Kat Hunter reports on the San Dimas Stage Race from inside the GC winning team
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Freelance sports & outdoors writer Kathryn Hunter

Not me.

The dry air is more "desiccating" to me and just makes me feel like I'm in a convection oven. With humidity and a light layer of sweat, ANY small breeze (which one SHOULD be making while riding, no?) feels cooling.

Now then, when stopped and with no breeze on your skin...that's a whole 'nuther story ;-)

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http://bikeblather.blogspot.com/

40% relative humidity in the experiment.

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Kat Hunter reports on the San Dimas Stage Race from inside the GC winning team
Aeroweenie.com -Compendium of Aero Data and Knowledge
Freelance sports & outdoors writer Kathryn Hunter

Might be the best quote in this thread. Imagine if she outran everyone but Ivan Rana and still finished 2nd!

Hi Bob, I think it is more than N=1. We have a ton of field testing now from Kona going back over a decade. As I pointed out in another post on this thread, since Normann's first win in Kona (2004), every winner has worn an aero helmet other than Crowie in 2008 and 2009. Crowie flipped to full aero gear in 2011 after Macca showed up in 2010 with full aero setup (fast helmet, wheels, tires and bike) and took the win. Men inherently generate much more heat than women because they are larger and riding at higher wattage. A rider riding at 300W will generate around 1200W of heat, while a pro woman riding around 200W will generate only 800W of heat. The pro man has to dissipate 400W extra over a pro woman. If anyone would be penalized with aero helmets it is the pro men and they have all adopted wearing aero lids in Kona (or at least non vented stubby helmets).

Please point me to the study. I would like to learn. At this point, I disagree entirely and if you have some reasonable evidence, I would love to learn. I melted a few times under the aero helmet, but it may have been my imagination based on your suggestion.

While she may have given time by not wearing one during cycling leg, mismanaging body core temp manifests itself later on the run, where losses are much more than 3min. Just my 2cents.

This is the only controlled study I know of:
http://www.researchgate.net/...a_traditional_helmet

Craig did some field testing:
http://triathlon.competitor.com/...ro-helmet-test_63574

The melting may have been real, but perhaps you would have melted in any helmet on that day?

Either way I think some very sensible 'safe bets' exist today, such as the Specialized Evade.

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Kat Hunter reports on the San Dimas Stage Race from inside the GC winning team
Aeroweenie.com -Compendium of Aero Data and Knowledge
Freelance sports & outdoors writer Kathryn Hunter

My main point is that the current literature on this subject has established that over a 12K TT an aero helmet does not affect body temperature, etc. IMHO, if someone wants to extrapolate that finding out to Irondistance racing they're WAGing so hard the dog is shaking. Ideographic examples and individual athlete equipment choices do not constitute scientific evidence. They simply do not.

Another point, we rely on wheel and bike companies to produce wind tunnel data out the wazoo and dismiss those who do not, yet in the case of aero lids we've rarely, if ever, asked or questioned cooling for the rider.

Oh and Chrissie never wore an aero helmet....yet she did pretty OK. She did win the IMWC a few times, right?

Bob

I think when you understand the huge increase in heat production that comes with a few watts more at the pedals the extrapolation is not at all so crazy, especially since head temperature stabilized 10 minutes in.

225 watts at the wheel (typical FOP pro woman) - 750 watts of total heat production

275 watts at the wheel (typical FOP man) - 916 watts of total heat production

300 watts (men in this test) - 1,000 watts heat production


and yeah chrissie is the worst example to use for equipment arguments because she was so much more fit than the others it would take gatorskins to cost her the win.

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Kat Hunter reports on the San Dimas Stage Race from inside the GC winning team
Aeroweenie.com -Compendium of Aero Data and Knowledge
Freelance sports & outdoors writer Kathryn Hunter

I do think extrapolating is reasonable. It think these studies show that there is relatively little heat transfer coming from your head. If there is relatively little heat transfer to your head, more airflow is not going to change anything. Not to mention other things like an aero helmet can keep the airflow attached to your back, instead of an area of stagnated flow on your back that will not be helping keep you cool.

What I think that this individual athlete choice is showing that at the very least an aero helmet does not actually cook EVERY athletes brain, I think we can agree on that simply looking at some of the results of the race. So athletes at the very least should test! Sure an aero helmet may not be the right choice for every athlete at every race, but it is silly not to use one in Kona just because you think it may be too hot.

Here is another study:

Effect of an Aerodynamic Helmet on Head Temperature, Core Temperature, and Cycling Power Compared With a Traditional Helmet. Journal of Strength and
Conditioning Research 27(12): 3,402-3,411, 2013.

same study =)

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Kat Hunter reports on the San Dimas Stage Race from inside the GC winning team
Aeroweenie.com -Compendium of Aero Data and Knowledge
Freelance sports & outdoors writer Kathryn Hunter

How about this:

Alam, F., Subic, A. & Akbarzadeh, A. (2008). 'Aerodynamics of bicycle helmets', in The Engineering of Sport 7 Volume 1. Springer, France, 337 - 344, ISBN: 978-287-09410-1



Alam, F., Subic, A., Akbarzadeh, A. & Watkins, S. (2008). 'Effects of venting geometry on thermal comfort and aerodynamic efficiency of bicycle helmets', in The Impact of Technology on Sport II. Taylor and Francis Group, Netherlands, 773 - 780, ISBN: 978-0-415-45695-1

Hi Bob...agreed that extrapolation may not be ideal, but we don't wait until the 100 year flood to decide what building materials are needed to survive it after testing materials in that environment. Science is used to extrapolate all kinds of stuff. We don't wait to get to mars to collect data to decide what systems are needed for rover to work on Mars. In any case, designing a study during an IM would be very tough to get actual data. Between shorter duration testing as well as the countless N=1 field testing from athletes, it is reasonable to put 2 and 2 together. As a bare minimum, there are better drag profile vented helmet options such as the Evade that she could consider.

I do feel that Sutton is leaving some time on the table with his current athlete (Ryf) and former athlete (Steffen). Steffen may also have been in the same boat in 2012 gunning for the win. She lost to Leanda Cave by 64 seconds. Maybe that truly was Caroline's win that she let slip away thanks to Sutton being a bit of a luddite when it comes to this stuff. When the win margins are 1-4 minutes, every second counts and it is too bad if Sutton is so close minded that he won't let his athletes try technologies that others are having success with.

Steffen used a Wingspan in 2012.....but I don't beleive she used one last year. Have no idea what she used Saturday.

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Chicago Cubs - 2016 WORLD SERIES Champions!!!!

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She has said before she does not like the sound of the wind when wearing an aero helmet. Also she feels like it heats her head up more.

The Evade may test the best but a lot of pros cannot wear one because of sponsors, no way would Cervelo let Steffen wear one. But there are several more brands out there where she would not be causing any conflicts.

OK, I was wrong about 2012. I guess she just needed to run 64 seconds quicker!

Or wear a faster helmet.

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Chicago Cubs - 2016 WORLD SERIES Champions!!!!

"If ever the time should come, when vain and aspiring men shall possess the highest seats in government, our country will stand in need of its experienced patriots to prevent its ruin." - Samuel Adams

Steffen wore a road helmet this year.

http://firstoffthebike.com/...s/2014/10/bike12.jpg

Surely that has got to be some kind of reference point for those who believe a road helmet would be better. Steffen has raced with both, and chose a road helmet this year. She would be aware of the potential gains and losses of both choices, and she is not the best runner. She is looking to maximize her bike leg gains against Carfrae and start the run with the biggest gap.

You can plug numbers into a spreadsheet or mathematical model all day long, they only tell you what happens aerodynamically when you put a different helmet on your head. Or hopefully they do - you need accurate data to start with and I assume you have accurate data for Ryf's frontal area based on the 2 models? They do not tell you what happens to your core temperature or your interpretation of how hot you feel, your mindset going into the race or your feeling getting off the bike to start the run. Just because a spreadsheet says you would have been 2 minutes faster does not make it so.

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Gatorskins would not have cost her the win.

Your heat production example is probably accurate, but not all the gains go to the head do they? In fact very few of those extra gains go to the head where the helmet is preventing the heat escaping. I think it would be difficult to say the study is accurate because you would produce more heat in the 12K TT than you do on an Ironman. Was the 12K TT done on the way to Hawi in 100+ temperatures and high humidity?

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I talked to a pro who trains with her and he said the coach won't let them use aero helmets or disc wheels in any race. Apparently he almost fired her for running a disc at Wiesbaden.....despite the fact that she won the race.

I've had pretty good luck with spreadsheets at that level of resolution actually.

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Kat Hunter reports on the San Dimas Stage Race from inside the GC winning team
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In 2011 it probably would have.




Like I said before, the test conditions were hotter than kona, with less wind to cool you off than kona, with a worst case scenario helmet. They measured core temp, head temp, and power output.

You can get yourself 90% of the aero gains with a ton more ventilation with a lot of different options.

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Kat Hunter reports on the San Dimas Stage Race from inside the GC winning team
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Sutton believes that disk wheels have bad ride quality and will beat up woman too much to use, for some reason this only applies to woman. How much do you want to wager that he puts less thought into tires and tire pressure, things that would have a much larger affect on ride quality.

The guy I talked to races on 25mm tires.....seems like a nice ride to me. He didn't say whether or not the coach recommended it though.

The interesting thing is that Ryf rides HED's. Those discs are just covered spoked wheels. They are not rigid at all. But yeah, he has some weird ideas and I'm sure he didn't consider tire pressure.

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lol. Well done. :)

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Chrissie wore a road helmet, so therefore anyone can win without an aero helmet.

There of course is such a thing as being fast despite less than ideal equipment selection. For example, I thing her bike position is very good and we all know, that trumps most everything else.

OTOH, Crowie had data that a bad bike frame..and possibly contributing to a poor position, could cost you 10 minutes over the best.

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Hey Dev,

Are you saying that Daniela might have lost the race because she didn't took the helmet count winner offer of exchanging her old helmet for a new aero one? ;)

I don't know...she might have needed to use a Stadler approved Giro Advantage...clearly that helmet was the only reason Stadler beat Macca in 2006 while setting the bike course record! The Rudy Wingspan might have been too slow for the full 2 min delta...but Jackmott needs to confirm!

She would have needed more than 2 minutes!
I cannot call this one!

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Kat Hunter reports on the San Dimas Stage Race from inside the GC winning team
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Freelance sports & outdoors writer Kathryn Hunter

Maybe Robbie Haywood will see this thread and be able to talk some sense into Sutto about equipment choices.
Ryf has several Red Bull painted aero helmets.. she wore them for all her other races this year.

The best answer is ---- she lost absolutely NO time at all.....

The time "gains" from wearing an aero helmet are SOOOOOO incredibly theoretical as one can't factor in to wind tunnel data which helmet she would have wore to begin with... whether the winds would have caused her to position her head in such a way that the aero helmet created MORE drag.... overheating... etc.. etc...

She wore the helmet she wore and rode as fast as she did.....

Das Ende

I lost 10 IQ points by roasting my brains in a TT helmet there, if I am ever dumb enough to go back I will wear a road helmet. Way easier to cool off the head with water with a tt helmet too.

I bet she lost zero minutes overall when you factor in everything.

That usually isn't possible, also you could chose to hold your head properly, like Kienle does (and Tony Martin, and Wiggins, and anyone else taking the discipline seriously)

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Kat Hunter reports on the San Dimas Stage Race from inside the GC winning team
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Freelance sports & outdoors writer Kathryn Hunter

Her head was down a lot but this is easily fixed.

Funny during all my races in the south with a black helmet I have never felt overly hot, no more than what I did with a regular white road helmet.

Any evidence that an aero helmet would cause more drag than a road helmet for certain head positions?

Head down is fine.
Just pick a helmet that works with head down

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Kat Hunter reports on the San Dimas Stage Race from inside the GC winning team
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Freelance sports & outdoors writer Kathryn Hunter

I'm suddenly imagining an aero helmet that looks like a conehead.

Nope...road helmet is always slower.

Kask Bambino is apparently pretty good for head up OR head down: http://www.bikeradar.com/...trial-helmets-34859/

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Your cognitive dissonance is showing...

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Interesting...Jim from ERO said that the Bambino was only good for a rider who usually kept his head below his shoulders.

FWIW, I have had positive experiences with the Bambino. Used successfully in both HIM and IM races this year. Have no idea if it was the "best" choice for me, but it was light, fit well, and was surprisingly well ventilated. Literally had not one drop of sweat hit my glasses in IMWI.

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You guys have way too much time on your hands for caring this much about this subject when the short answer is she probably didn't lose any meaningful time because of her helmet choice.... Too many "what ifs" to draw anything from the debate.

How much time did Chrissie Wellington lose by not wearing an aero helmet? Heaps I bet....

No "what ifs"...just physics and math. It's really not that complicated...

I don't know...Craig Alexander seems to think aerodynamics matter...http://gearpatrol.com/...iew-craig-alexander/

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Like so many things in life, there is no silver bullet. Everything has positives and negatives.

While you can measure the time benefit of an aero helmet vs a well ventilated standard road helmet, that's not all that's involved.

For example, there's the improved cooling of a standard helmet. The human body performs best physically at a given temperature, that is some amount above the normal resting temperature. I seem to recall that muscles work best about 102degF (that's why we warm up afterall, to get the muscles working in the most efficient range). At the same time, with the brains consumption of huge amounts of oxygen and energy, it also produces a lot of heat. (that's why in winter, wearing a hat of some kind, is so effective in keeping you warm). The heat in your head needs to be dissipated in order to avoid overheating (and overheating of the body, not just the brain). If you don't dissipate enough heat from your head, you A) don't perform as well mentally or B) perform as well physically because your overall temperature is too high. This is why you see athletes douse their heads in water when riding or running hard. It cools off the head and the body overall.

An aero helmet is not as effective at cooling the head as a vented road helmet. In cool conditions it may be a non-issue but in hot conditions it's more important. There is a crossover point where a vented helmet is a better overall choice, even if the aero calcs say an aero helmet saves you X time. AND, the crossover point varies from person to person.

Training is not only the time when you hammer your body to go faster, it's also the time to test different equipment to find out what works best for you under different circumstances.

Me? I function badly in the heat. I switch to a road helmet just about any time the temperature is over about 75degF. But that's just me.

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And therein lies the problem with saying that she 'lost' 3 minutes by not wearing an aero helmet. Plugging theoretical numbers into a spreadsheet does not take into account the many other real world factors involved in racing at Kona. Steffen wore aero last year and a road helmet this year - there is obviously a benefit to a road helmet in her opinion, or experience. Who is to say that Steffen has a different physiology to most others and therefore benefits from a road helmet? Linking to Crowie's chat about aero proves he went better with an aero helmet - it does not prove Ryf would have gone faster. You have to run off the bike, if an aero helmet overheats YOU - and only YOU know if that is the case - then wear a road helmet.

I personally would wear an aero helmet. I go well in the heat and have no heating issues. All other arguments are N=1 and a spreadsheet can only guide to the aero physics of the situation, not define the real world reality of what would be fastest for YOU.

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I am pretty sure that Crowie stopped using a road helmet because someone proved to him that an aero helmet doesn't overheat you, it make you feel like you are overheating which isn't the same as actually overheating. Can't find the article to link...

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How does Danny Hart sit down with balls that big?

Well not so fast on that one. http://www.livescience.com/...-heat-loss-head.html

Hugh

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Genetics load the gun, lifestyle pulls the trigger.

Crowie discovered an aero helmet did not overheat HIM - this has no bearing on Daniella Ryf. We can only guess why she did not use one - we cannot take the results from a spreadsheet and claim that she would have been 3 minutes faster at the finish line. That is my point.

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I've not seen that happen very often, if ever.

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Thanks for bringing science.

It may be that hairy heads block helmet vents with enough insulation to essentially negate road helmet vent cooling, and as you know from our tests, there are ways to increase airflow over the head while reducing overall drag, so this whole road helmet argument misses the target.

Just looked at the bikeradar link...........sweet! My $100 Nashbar special Bell Javelin is one of the fastest! :)

I wonder, when Jim did the testing with the triathletes on the indoor track.....were they really seeing wattage savings of that much (30 watts) when compared with road helmets? I think about the difference in feel between, say, 230 watts and 260 watts on my indoor trainer, and it just seems very hard ot believe a helmet choice makes that difference...

The following facts were established early on:

1. Aero helmets are more aero than road helmets
2. Ventilation does not cause over heating
3. Winners, both male and female, wore them

The only people that seem to have a problem with any of those facts have not brought anything but anecdotes.

As slowman says, we are all more similar than we are different. Unless Daniella is an alien, her physiology should be not that much different from any human. She will essentially generate he same watts of heat for every watt to the bike wheel, and her ability to dissipate heat will be dependent on her volume to surface ratio and her percent body fat. Her percent body fat should be very similar to all elite pro women, and her volume to surface area should be pretty well identical to every pro woman of her height and weight. If anything, pro men generate more heat as they are doing more watts and their volume is relatively higher than women for their surface area, so they will have more trouble dissipating heat. The head is only a small amount of surface relative to the entire body. and the part covered by the aero helmet relative to a vented road helmet is an even small subset of our total surface area.

So as much as it would be nice to think that Daniella defies basic physics, she's more than likely in the same scenario as all other lean high performing pros when it comes to Kona heat dissipation. Sutton, unfortunately does not understand physics, and that is fine. He gets awesome results out of his athletes, but he COULD get even better results out of them if you picked up the low hanging fruit that requires no actual training!

Which she obviously is not because she is Human.


Essentially yes - not that much different. In detail - no she is an individual. Therein lies the problem with generalization.


She may generate similar amounts of heat. She may have similar percentages of body fat. She may only cover a small part of her body like everyone else in the race. How this affects her performance is individual to her - as it is to Steffen (who has used aero and road helmets in the past and chose a road helmet this year) as it is to everybody else in the race. As an example, some will say it was very hot - probably come from a cooler climate to race. Some will say it was normal for that time of year - probably come from a hot climate or maybe even live on the island. That is all about perspective - you can perceive its going to be hot - you can perceive its going to be normal. That could affect your choice of equipment rightly or wrongly. The fact Steffen wore a road helmet is evidence enough that some think an aero lid is more of a hindrance than an advantage.

Throw as much science in as you like. Spread sheets, heat dissipation maps, thermal images - whatever you like. Its the perception that its either hot or its not that is the starting point. That is not science, that is not a spread sheet, that is experience and very dependent on where you live, train and can guide equipment choices.


I never said she defied physics, I said a spreadsheet showing a 3 minute gain using an aero helmet does not mean she would be 3 minutes faster at the finish line, a statement that I believe is fundamentally correct.


Whether Brett Sutton understands physics or not I have no idea, and I acknowledge the concept of what you are suggesting. I cannot and you cannot say whether Ryf would have gone faster at the finish line with an aero helmet, only she can. She/Brett chose a road helmet and it must have been for a reason.

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I agree with your logic. But logic doesn't have much weight with some of these guys. I suggested overheating might have been a consideration based on the fact she appeared very heated on the run. Maybe she overheats more than some. I know I my heat tolerance is less than some of my friends. But spreadsheets apparently can't measure things of this nature. So I guess we need to add 3 minutes to her finishing time.

Sure it does, if you build the spreadsheet properly.

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Kat Hunter reports on the San Dimas Stage Race from inside the GC winning team
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I can absolutely put core temperature as a parameter in the spreadsheet.

It is actually really easy since the core temp increase due to wearing a Specialized Evade, or similar, is 0. The rest of the math becomes simple.

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Kat Hunter reports on the San Dimas Stage Race from inside the GC winning team
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"You keep using that word...I do not think it means what you think it means." - Inigo Montoya

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But she does not know if she would overheat with an aero helmet. She did not test an aero helmet to even see if she would. Brett Sutton believes that an aero helmet will cook an athletes brain. He ignores all evidence showing that is not a given for every athlete or even most athletes. So none of the athletes use one, but then suddenly are performing fine with them once they leave him. It is not the posters arguing for an aero helmet or at least testing one that are not using logic, it is her coach that has an issue with logic.

Logic-"a particular method of reasoning or argumentation". You guys are great. You stick to your guns. You refuse to admit that anything could possibly vary from individual to individual. I would wager that if someone had posted prior to Kona that the overall winner will be riding with 175mm cranks and no power meter some of you would have said no way in hell that the science will allow that to happen. But it did.

That...in logic circles...is known as a "straw man argument" ;-)






http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Logic

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I think you are making assumptions. Ryf prepared for Kona in Cozumel. Similar hot and humid conditions. Did she test the aero helmet? I don't think anyone in this thread has that information.

Perhaps the amount of hair on Ryf's head has something to do with her decision. She certainly has more hair than Crowie!!

It's actually not surprising that Kienle didn't use a PM. Pros do what it takes to stay in the race/make the pack. Pros tend to be better with their own PE than AGs. As for 175mm, Kienle didn't need shorter cranks to achieve his current position. Shorter cranks don't magically give you more power if you don't need them.

Great!! Now my definition is wrong. Or is it Webster's??

If that's the only definition given by whatever version you looked at, then both.

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Tom A. For The Win!!!

only if he is wearing an aero helmet.

No, I think you can. You can come up with a reasonable range of values.

When I put on race wheels I go faster at the same power output than I do with my training rims/tires. When I use my road helmet vs. aero helmet, the same thing occurs. When I sit up vs. being in a aero position, my speed drops. You can absolutely place an approximate value on it.

But like anything, you need to train that way, adapt to those sensations. So much about racing is feel. If you feel overheated, then you'll start listening to your central governor and slow down. If you reject that sensation and focus on just riding, you'll be fine. Slightly reducing cooling to about 5% of your surface area, just won't have that big of an impact.

keep in mind that savings 3-5 watts, means you go just as fast with less power. So if you cut cooling capacity by lets say 2%, but you reduced power output by 2%, then it will be a wash. OR if it allows you to get 1% faster, then you gain some cooling capacity so the heat increase is reduced.

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Nope, Sutton believe that aero helmets cook the athletes brain, so none of his athletes can use them. Notice that none of his athletes use aero helmets? Notice how plenty of athletes do use aero helmets without their brains cooking? Do you think it is just a coincidence that ALL of the athletes under Sutton just so happen to all be special athletes that overheat in aero helmets, while most athletes not under him are fine with them? Or that athletes that are no longer under him are suddenly capable of not overheating with an aero helmet? Seriously look up Sutton's thoughts on aero helmets and you will see his thoughts on them. They are not some athletes overheat, it is all athletes overheat.

I wear an aero helmet even when you don't think I'm wearing an aero helmet...say "Hello" to the LG Course ;-)

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Yeah, and that aero helmet probably cools more than normal, instead of less.

Also, if you avoid an aero helmet because of heat concerns at kona, you should probably first shave your head.

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Kat Hunter reports on the San Dimas Stage Race from inside the GC winning team
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By the time I get to Kona (never) I won't have any hair to shave. So my Spec evade isn't nearly as aero as that LG I am sure?

I wear that helmet....any data or reports? I love the fit and feel - How much am I giving up?

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Compared to what?

The data out there shows that, at least for a more "head up" position, it's on par with a Specialized Evade...which is within 5W at race speeds of some of the best "full on" TT helmets.

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For most people the spec evade is probably going to be better than the LG course

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Kat Hunter reports on the San Dimas Stage Race from inside the GC winning team
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Correct.

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Jim Manton / ERO Sports

Yes, and with enough training in similar conditions, you can determine how much your performance is reduced at similar intensity levels. Again, you might find that in the heat you lose 5W no matter what you wear. Then you might find that the aero helmet costs you another 1-2 Watts and lost 0.05mph lets say.... but then you know you go 0.1mph faster. Its' just a matter of having data. Pros ride at least 6 times a week, 50 weeks a year.... if 1/3 of those rides are outdoors, you still have 100 opportunities to test equipment and determine how you perform.

Actually, a handy value would be a Ant+ thermometer placed under you arm to roughly measure core body temp. Then you could overdress on mild weather days and still do some comparison tests on equipment.

But Jack has the best point that keeps getting ignored. There ARE helmets that are have equal cooling AND are more aero. Just as you don't usually ride the fastest tire. You have ot factor in durability. Similarly you might not wear the fastest helmet, you have to factor in comfort, cooling and head position.

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Any idea how much better the evade is than the Air Attack (which, since I started reading this forums, I'm gathering was a poor decision)?

Survey says!...

Ryf wore an aero helmet for her previous two IM's before Kona and at the 70.3 WC. So your assumptions about Sutton on aero helmet use are incorrect.

I also posted a pic of Steffen riding in a Wingspan from 2012....but I think it is pretty clear that these tend to be exceptions to the rule. For whatever reason, as a general rule, it seems Sutton athletes avoid aero helmets in Kona

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Significant difference in head temp, but NO difference in GI (basically core) temp. No helmet effect on HR or power output.

. http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/23539083


Another which appears to be not yet published, but is university research: no effects of helmet on temps


. http://www.academia.edu/...E_IN_WARM_AND_HUMID_

Sorry, I should have been clear that I was talking about Kona. In Kona these are Sutton's thoughts, which as you point out are even more illogical since she wears them in other races.

But you cannot build a spreadsheet that takes into account the point I am making can you?

I am not talking about putting the number zero into a spreadsheet for the temperature difference between wearing an aero helmet and not wearing an aero helmet. My point is one of perception, which is an experienced based construct, not a quantative number you can throw into a computer.

I can perceive it to be hot, or I can perceive it to be cold, or I can perceive it to be somewhere in-between. I can perceive there to be an effect on my temperature due to my choice of equipment. If my perception is that I am overheating, my performance declines. If my perception is that I am not overheating my performance does not decline. Whether I am overheating or not is actually pretty irrelevant at this point - if I perceive I am too hot the spread sheet has not taken this into account. Its my perception which is not a measurable scientific number and is very N=1.

Ryf obviously had a reason for using a road helmet - probably due to humidity and temperature and but we are guessing here. She has used both aero and road helmets before, so its not like she has not made an informed choice. She knows what they both feel like, and she knows 1 is aerodynamically faster than the other.

The research can say there is not temperature difference (and there is no research for a 112 mile ride out to Hawi here) and the aerodynamics can say the aero helmet is 3 minutes faster all day long. If Ryf's perception is that she is going to overheat she made the right choice. The spread sheet cannot take account of that, and it cannot tell us if she would have overheated or not. All the spread sheet can do is add, subtract, divide etc etc etc

I did note in her interview with Bob Babbit she said she only got to the Island on Tuesday and had not ridden all the course. I am guessing she used a road helmet because she had not tested and aero one on the course. She is not N=1 at that either, once you see Chrissie winning with a road helmet if kind of gives it an acceptability.

I am not saying your spread sheet is wrong, I am saying that it cannot tell us she would have been 3 minutes faster at the finish line. I am right in what I am saying.

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She can also choose to conquer false perceptions, like say, Craig did.

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If its your perception its not false. Its your perception. Yes I certainly do not disagree with your sentiment - I am sure I would have advised her to go with an aero lid as well. The spread sheet still cannot predict a 3 minute saving at the finish line. Of course with this years experience she may be in a position to alter her perception, obviously as Craig Alexander managed to do after he had some experience of the island - like many others.

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Whatever semantics you want to wrap it in, get over it. Know that your perception doesn't change your performance, and it won't.

The 8 men in the aero helmet study said they perceived a difference but performed the same anyway. Why do you think Ryf would be different?

Maybe she should fire her coach, at least in his equipment choice capacity.

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Kat Hunter reports on the San Dimas Stage Race from inside the GC winning team
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Interesting to me that everyone seems to agree that Kona is unlike any other IM race. In fact, one of the pros I think made the statement that there was no other IM race in the world with the conditions of Kona. The heat, humidity, and the winds apparently make Kona unique. The swim is affected by the surf/tides. The bike can be into a headwind in both directions. The run, unique to Kona. At least that is what has been said over and over in the 30 years I have been following the race. But apparently the uniqueness of Kona shouldn't impact decisions on what gear to use or not to use. Everyone should line up with the same swim, bike & run gear and forget the conditions unique to Kona.

See Rule 4


With that reasoning, she should have used training wheels too.

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I have nothing to get over! Its my opinion and I can justify it!


Well if I was being pedantic I would point out that Ryf is a woman - and study refers to 8 men. But I will go back to my earlier point - generalisations are fine generally - but not individually. Are you convinced that Ryf would not perceive a difference that would not affect her performance. Reality is neither of us really knows - but there must be a reason why she chose a road helmet? Whatever that reason the spread sheet cannot take that reason into consideration - and cannot predict she would be 3 minutes quicker at the finishing line.


Maybe. I don't know. The interest for me here is Steffens choice - she is not coached by Brett Sutton anymore - she takes advice from Macca - but she still wore a road helmet.

Honestly I am not having a go at you personally - I just think the spread sheet works well in the wind tunnel and can be used to guide equipment choices - it does not work well enough to say if Ryf chose a aero helmet instead of a road helmet she would have been 3 minutes faster at the finish line.

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Sure it does, in at least 3 ways I can think of:

1. you might want to use a shallower front wheel than normal

2. you might want to pick equiment that is good at high yaw, even if you are fast

3. you might want to use a straw based drink solution, even if you hate those.

There just isn't any reason not to wear an aero helmet =)

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Kat Hunter reports on the San Dimas Stage Race from inside the GC winning team
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Oh I agree
I think it is more like 2 minutes +/- 1 minute

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Kat Hunter reports on the San Dimas Stage Race from inside the GC winning team
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See Rule 7.

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is a shaved head really cooler than with long hair?

I don't know!

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I've been shaving my head to race for years and decided not to for kona, maybe that's why I melted on the run!

did you really overheat on the run or was it just your false perception? pink

Is that thought based on the spread sheet, your experience, a combination of the 2 or your perception of what the potential time saving could be?

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By how much? I need a new helmet (old one got "used") and wanted to get the Course as a semi-aero training helmet that could be used for racing, in a pinch, if I had a disaster like my aero helmet clasp breaking (as happened to a teammate race morning once). I also like the symmetry of using the Course for training and P-09 for racing.

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The point is, ladies and gentleman, that speed, for lack of a better word, is good. Speed is right, Speed works. Speed clarifies, cuts through, and captures the essence of the evolutionary spirit.

I wonder if the outcome of the race would have been different if the AG men started 5min later too.

Like for example how 130psi in your tires might "feel" faster, but is in fact slower on normal road conditions.

OR how going lower could also feel faster, but isn't necessarily faster.

.... or how those huge frame mounted hydration things with 30' of plastic tubing look fas.... oh wait, those definitely look slower AND are in fact really slow.

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TrainingBible Coaching
http://www.trainingbible.com

Thanks for the link. I know there is evolving information on heat loss from the head, and that's why I didn't mention a number. I've never heard 'half' before. I'd heard numbers between 15-25% however.

My real point was that in hot conditions (Kona) having a lovely insulating bubble of styrofoam around your head (aero helmet) vs a much more open syrofoam ball (standard vented road helmet), the aero helmet will retain more heat, just at the time you want to dissipate heat.

In my own work (HVAC engineer) I know that if you insulate the hell out of a building, it will retain heat well, but all the insulation in the world won't help you if you leave all the windows and doors open all the time. I used that same approach with the helmet on the head in Aero or vented cases.

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TriDork

"Happiness is a myth. All you can hope for is to get laid once in a while, drunk once in a while and to eat chocolate every day"

We are in dire need of romulusmagnus and his propensity models here

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Kat Hunter reports on the San Dimas Stage Race from inside the GC winning team
Aeroweenie.com -Compendium of Aero Data and Knowledge
Freelance sports & outdoors writer Kathryn Hunter

Or maybe a trucker hat.

she doesn't like the sound of the wind on the covered ears of aerohelmets...I am sure Macca wouldn't have prevented her from using one if she wanted to.

Why don't we simply congratulate her on a great inaugural race instead of pointing out that she could have gone faster with different equipment.... For a first timer, she did incredibly well and deserves kudos instead of criticism......

No one here is scoffing at her accomplishment. On the whole, she did amazingly!

Besides, this thread has shifted away from directly criticizing her and back to the broader aero lid in hot weather debate. Even if it wasn't, no one learns anything by praise...only criticism, thus the term: constructive criticism.

I find that rationalization kind of odd...especially since IME, wind noise is actually reduced with aero helmets that cover your ears, as compared to a road helmet.

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http://bikeblather.blogspot.com/

And I agree with her re: wind noise.

However, I suck it up anyway.

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Chicago Cubs - 2016 WORLD SERIES Champions!!!!

"If ever the time should come, when vain and aspiring men shall possess the highest seats in government, our country will stand in need of its experienced patriots to prevent its ruin." - Samuel Adams

Maybe it's the helmets you guys use?

That's the thing I like about my TT helmet...the quietness of it...almost makes me want to get some of those cat ear things for my road helmet straps...almost.

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http://bikeblather.blogspot.com/

That's after your brain learns to filter out the whooshing. I only put mine on a few times a year and the first thing I notice is how loud the air is around the ears. 10 minutes later I'm amazed at how quiet the ride is.

But the whole building isn't insulated, just the top floor. You have 95%(?) percent of the wet skin surface area exposed to 35km/hr convection current to provide evaporative cooling. This is balanced with incoming radiation from the sun and humid/hot wind reducing the effectivity of evaporation cooling.

You also have the fact that most women have thick hair which insulates their head without regard of the helmet choice. I speculate that the presence of thick wet hair on a womans head is the dominating factor with regards to the cooling capacity and the airflow from a helmet is a secondary factor i.e. the ability of the head to shed heat from evaporative cooling is dominated by the insulating effect of hair and not the airflow itself.

Quick question..... Does anyone know a good roofer in Phoenix? I'd like to have my attic insulated before winter and this thread seems to have moved beyond Ryf, beyond Aero v. Un-Aero, beyond heat dissipation, and into effective home insulation.

This is where I bring in 'evaporative cooling' (ie sweat). The thing is that we can argue degrees (pun intended) all day long, but the fact of the matter is that a fully enclosed aero helmet retains more heat in the head than a vented road helmet. The net cost of wearing an aero helmet on a hot day can (in some athletes view) be greater than the overall cost (performance wise) of a non-aero vented helmet.

I concede that aero is important with regards to performance on the day. I also contend that heat rejection (including evaporative cooling) aslo plays a part in overall performance. My contention is that on hot days, a vented helmet is likely to have a slight advantage overall, with respect to overall speed/finishing time, compared to an aero helmet.

Since some athletes wear aero helmets and some wear vented standard road helmets suggests to me that A) they are very close to the same thing and that B) the crossover point varies depending on the athlete. And I won't even bring in the 'placebo effect' discussion........except that I sorta did. Sorry :-)

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TriDork

"Happiness is a myth. All you can hope for is to get laid once in a while, drunk once in a while and to eat chocolate every day"

hehehe,

Not only do I race with a vented helmet on hot days, and not only am I an HVAC designer, but I also worked for several years as a roofer! Just last New Zealand summer, I stripped the sheet metal roof off my house and insulated the attic then put the roof back on. (it was impossible to get insulation right to the eaves, from the attic access hatch, so the roof had to come off).

My house is way cooler in summer (my heat pump only has to run about 1/3 as much as before) and in winter it's even better. It's now worthwhile using my log burner/fire place rather than the heat pump all the time.

Unfortunately I don't know any roofers in Phoenix. Try the Yellow Pages or Mr Google. I will say however, that if you can find a way to store some of your excessive summer heat, for winter use, you'll be on to a winner! I was in Arizona for the first time just last year, and I can say that I don't even like it when chicks are that hot! How the f*%& do you train in that heat?

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TriDork

"Happiness is a myth. All you can hope for is to get laid once in a while, drunk once in a while and to eat chocolate every day"

Wind noise is probably the wrong term....it is the amplified sound of my breathing and the way other sounds seem to resonate inside the helmet, while normal outside noises are distant.

And I have had the same effect in a Selector, Wingspan and Bambino.

And for the love of gawd, don't even consider the dumb-ass ears....just get some round foam insulation (used to fill cracks and gaps) and attach to your helmet straps. Does the same thing and is not furry. Still looks kinda dumb though....

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Chicago Cubs - 2016 WORLD SERIES Champions!!!!

"If ever the time should come, when vain and aspiring men shall possess the highest seats in government, our country will stand in need of its experienced patriots to prevent its ruin." - Samuel Adams

But...that's the sound of SPEEEEEED! Embrace it. Enjoy it :-)

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http://bikeblather.blogspot.com/

@ jackmott, TomA, Jim@ERO

Do any of you have data/thoughts about the Kask Infinity?

I actually would definitely buy myself an aero helmet, if only I could find one that was either better fitting, better looking, less awkward to get on/off or even just one that seemed like value for money for me (no matter the price). The closest that I have got to finding one that ticks those boxes in Australia (with Aus Standards Certification) is the Kask Bambino but the Aus version is actually a crappy watered down version of the real one (apparently to meet safety standards) and I really can't quite bring myself to plonking down the cash for what seems like poor value for money (and the only size available here is the Medium, which is pretty tight on me).

So in the interim I have found that I quite like the Infinity and don't mind the Evade. Are they reasonable options?

Thanks very much.

Sam.

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Samuel Arthur Medway
Perth, Western Australia

The fact at the end of the day is that there is no proof to show that a not ventilated aero helmet reduces power output or produces slower finishing times with respect to road helmets. Aero helmets have been repeatedly shown to reduce finishing times in almost all conditions. Any contrary conclusion is speculation without science or evidence.

By what mechanism do you believe a non ventilated aero helmet reduces performance? Higher skin temperature of the skull, higher brain temperature, higher core temperature, central governor reduction... or some other performance reducing mechanism. Loss of heat rejection through the skull causes/contributes to _________ which reduces performance. Hint: "Overheating" is not a valid answer.


How many of these athletes have done testing with both helmets to show that they are objectively (not subjectively) slower with an aero helmet? Most likely none.


Great thing! Using science, testing methods, GPS, power meters, lactate and/or HR any placebo effect is not an issue. Unless you know of a way where by placebo effect can fool these tools and increase performance.

Placebo effect? Similar to being passed by a hot chick, and miraculously managing to go faster.

As for scientific testing of aero vs vented is soooooo difficult to develop a test to isolate JUST that issue in reliable way.

the difference is so close either way that perception (not necessarily placebo) effect influences the outcome.

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TriDork

"Happiness is a myth. All you can hope for is to get laid once in a while, drunk once in a while and to eat chocolate every day"

Ky-Ko Roofing
1912 W Parkside Ln
Phoenix, AZ 85027
United States

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http://mobile.twitter.com/BLambTriathlete
Athlete of the Week
Meet the Team
Headwear

Buy overseas and transfer a sticker from some crappy Australian helmet.

EDIT, supposedly they're scam proof these days :/ sux, as shit is so expensive in Australia

EDIT 2, you don't need a Aus certified helmet in TA sanctioned events, they only have to be recognised by a federation that is an affiliate of the ITU
http://www.triathlon.org.au/...ompetition+Rules.pdf
Page 6

I've used five different aero helmets over the years. They're all way louder from a wind noise perspective than a road helmet.

I think you're the outlier here, Tom. :-)

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Favorite Gear: Dimond | Cadex | Desoto Sport | Hoka One One

I've never noticed wind noise from aero helmets either.

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Kat Hunter reports on the San Dimas Stage Race from inside the GC winning team
Aeroweenie.com -Compendium of Aero Data and Knowledge
Freelance sports & outdoors writer Kathryn Hunter

Part of it could be that I usually tape up all the vents on my helmet (limited as they are on an LG Rocket) and use the face shield visor...plus the tail has been "boxed in" (which eliminated some annoying "whistling" at certain head angles on the stock helmet) ;-)

That said, I've also ridden with plenty of other aero helmets at times (RP Wingspan, Specialized TT2, etc.) and never noticed wind noise...and recall them all being quieter than when riding around with a road helmet.

I have a feeling it may just be that the sounds are "different"(as Power13 wrote above), and that's what bothers people?

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http://bikeblather.blogspot.com/

I get a lot of crap for overthinking bike setup but I swear everyone overthinks it, some people just overthink ways to do it wrong.

"oh it sounds funny and also this skin suit causes hateful perceptions and"

SHUT UP AND PEDAL, FUCK

Sutton has the right idea at least with the "shut up and obey" attitude. Just needs to slightly improve his bike setup orders.

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Kat Hunter reports on the San Dimas Stage Race from inside the GC winning team
Aeroweenie.com -Compendium of Aero Data and Knowledge
Freelance sports & outdoors writer Kathryn Hunter

Yeah, I really think that is it. The difference just gets referred to as "wind noise" when it is really kinda the opposite (and the fact that aero lids can seem to amplify other sounds such as breathing, etc).

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Chicago Cubs - 2016 WORLD SERIES Champions!!!!

"If ever the time should come, when vain and aspiring men shall possess the highest seats in government, our country will stand in need of its experienced patriots to prevent its ruin." - Samuel Adams

When considering heat from an aero vs vented helmet, do not overlook the effect of the sun directly on the skin. In 2005, I did a test pre race with vented vs aero, and felt consistently "cooler" in the aero. There was no question it was due to less direct sun on my head.
I am very skeptical of the data of time saving for an aero helmet, or any piece of equipment tested in a wind tunnel individually- which is grossly out of context to the real world. A bike goes no where without a body on it pedaling, the same is true for an aero helmet. If we are to believe all of the data for aero improvements on frames, wheels, clothing, helmets, etc since 1995, then we will have to believe that the athletes in 1995 (Allen, Scott, Van Lierde, Helreigel, etc) were far superior to todays athletes, as their bike times were very similar to today's, and their run times were better!

Bike times have improved since 1988 by about 14 minutes, which is actually more than you would expect from equipment claims. You would only expect about 6-8 minutes from the changes in equipment

Run times have also improved but not as much as bike times

http://austintriathlonstore.blogspot.com/...nman-bike-stats.html

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Kat Hunter reports on the San Dimas Stage Race from inside the GC winning team
Aeroweenie.com -Compendium of Aero Data and Knowledge
Freelance sports & outdoors writer Kathryn Hunter

From 1988- yes there have been big improvements, that is why I noted 1995. Most of the improvements you have noted from 1988 occurred by 1993- 1995, and are likely training and nutrition based, not equipment. The Kona times dropped substantially over those 6-7 years, but not much at all since.

Additional comment regarding Kona bike data- not sure it means much without "normalizing" for wind conditions. There is no doubt that the last 8-10 years have seen some of the best conditions in regard to wind, as compared to some very brutal years from 2000- 2004. Not entirely sure about 1995, but my fading memory remembers it as reasonably good. So if you look at the data points in 1994-1996 and compare to the recent 3 years, you will not see nearly as much change as the overall data is presented.
Probably a better way to judge equipment improvement is the 1 hour cycling record, which has improved at roughly the same rate as running and swimming records- another indication that equipment "improvements" are a bit over rated in the sport of cycling (marketing influenced??). Of course, maybe it is the compression socks :-)

Since 1995 the bike times of the top 10 finishers have improved 17 minutes

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Kat Hunter reports on the San Dimas Stage Race from inside the GC winning team
Aeroweenie.com -Compendium of Aero Data and Knowledge
Freelance sports & outdoors writer Kathryn Hunter

The hour record is tricky to use as a comparison because the rules have always been in flux. The rate of imrpovement during the period when people could use TT bikes though was much much greater than running records (Green line) while the eddy M record was completely stagnant for years

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Kat Hunter reports on the San Dimas Stage Race from inside the GC winning team
Aeroweenie.com -Compendium of Aero Data and Knowledge
Freelance sports & outdoors writer Kathryn Hunter

other comparison points:
10k run world record has improved by 0.8% since 1998
UK 25 mile TT champs have improved by 1.9% since 1999

1 mile and 1,500 meter running world records have improved 0% since 1999

Pursuit has improved 1.8% since 2004 (just 7 years)

Or we go back to when the 1,500 record was more active, the 10 year span from 1975 to 1985 saw a 1.4% improvement

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Kat Hunter reports on the San Dimas Stage Race from inside the GC winning team
Aeroweenie.com -Compendium of Aero Data and Knowledge
Freelance sports & outdoors writer Kathryn Hunter

Jack, reading your posts has actually made me change my vocabulary on this topic (but not my opinions) because there tends to be a lot of cross talk on this topic. Instead of saying "she lost three minutes" for example, which statistics/physics minded people bristle at (you never had the three minutes to lose) I now say "you could gain the potential for three minutes". We could go back in time an dress Daniela up in an aero lid and her time could be the same, worse, or better than how she road with a a regular helmet.

This reminds me of the proximate clause "sine qua non" in liability cases. One camp is saying "but for her choice of helmet, she could have been 3 minutes faster" hence the term "lost three minutes". Those of us who doubt that don't necessarily doubt the merits of the aero helmet or evidence that it can potentially make you faster, we doubt that her performance would have dramatically changed because of one change in equipment. Look at it another way, say she road with an aero helmet and went slower, that isn't necessarily evidence that aero helmets are useless - she could have road slower for a myriad of reasons we are all familiar with.

thanks for supplying excellent data. Question on the one hour record data- the chart seems to show a lot of data points and progression in a very short period, which appears to be 1996-1998. Why is there no data (green line) after aprox. 1998?

That is why I said 2 minutes +/- 1 minute =)

You could aero weenie yourself 10 free watts and still choose to ride in the front paceline, and go 0 seconds faster on the bike. Presumably you would run faster for having spent less energy though. Who knows how much

However in Ryf's case she was off the front TTing much of the race. In those moments she absolutely would go faster, if you went back in time and reduced the drag of her setup.

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Kat Hunter reports on the San Dimas Stage Race from inside the GC winning team
Aeroweenie.com -Compendium of Aero Data and Knowledge
Freelance sports & outdoors writer Kathryn Hunter

The UCI continually changed it's rules around. The rapid rise in the green happened because of technology and position advancements. Then the UCI split the record up into two records - one where you could only use round steel tubes and box rim wheels, and one where you could use TT bikes.

People lost interest in the record at that point.

Then recently they went back to having just one record, with TT bikes allowed. This seems to have reignited interest, so we may see new records soon.

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Kat Hunter reports on the San Dimas Stage Race from inside the GC winning team
Aeroweenie.com -Compendium of Aero Data and Knowledge
Freelance sports & outdoors writer Kathryn Hunter

I was rooting for a Kona rookie to win so I was pulling for her to win the whole thing. I am curious about her helmet choice, someone should ask her. Even though she is a Kona rookie she is not an inexperienced athlete so she must have had reasons that made sense to her at the time. If she made a mistake in that choice she will either say so or next year she will be a in a different type of helmet. She wont be a Kona rookie anymore so I am going to have to find a different dark horse to root for.

News flash...the aerodynamic savings of aero helmets have NOT been established solely on the basis of "helmet only" testing in wind tunnels.

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http://bikeblather.blogspot.com/

Scientific experimentation is extremely rewarding. Part of the process is avoiding superstitious types' crap. In Ryf's Kona case, even if she did no personal testing, there is no shortage of data for similar helmets, wardrobe, and hair. Thanks for all your tire Crr testing!