Nick B wrote:
3-4minsRyf could've won Kona if she wore an aero helmet!
;0)
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Re: How Many minutes did Ryf Lose without Aero Lid [Nick B]
[ In reply to ]
Ryf could've won Kona if she wore an aero helmet!
;0)
Re: How Many minutes did Ryf Lose without Aero Lid [Run For Money]
[ In reply to ]
I can't help but think that for this level of athlete and that level of coach, she almost certainly tried the aero helmet in long training race prep rides, and for whatever reason (?position, ?comfort), ending up not being advantageous for her compared to a regular helmet.
Re: How Many minutes did Ryf Lose without Aero Lid [lightheir]
[ In reply to ]
lightheir wrote:
I can't help but think that for this level of athlete and that level of coach, she almost certainly tried the aero helmet in long training race prep rides, and for whatever reason (?position, ?comfort), ending up not being advantageous for her compared to a regular helmet.I always wonder the same sort of thing. These are pro athletes. It's not like they don't have access to the latest info and gear, like all of us champs here on slowtwitch! :)
I wonder what Rappstar's take on it is??
Re: How Many minutes did Ryf Lose without Aero Lid [Run For Money]
[ In reply to ]
Run For Money wrote:
Nick B wrote:
3-4minsRyf could've won Kona if she wore an aero helmet!
;0)
I'm assuming that's pink. :)
Sure, maybe she saves a couple minutes. But it sure seems like Rinny was gonna run her down no matter what. We have no idea if she could have kicked it into another gear throughout the run if Ryf was another minute or two ahead.
I'm guessing she could have.
Re: How Many minutes did Ryf Lose without Aero Lid [devashish_paul]
[ In reply to ]
devashish_paul wrote:
Thanks! I knew that was the range, just checking in to see if it would have given her the race win assuming she can thermally regulate for the run. Seems to work fine for Kienle Carfrae and and many more.Isn't Ryf a lot...lot...larger athlete than rinny? I think Potts's performance was damn...really damn impressive given the conditions.
TrainingBible Coaching
http://www.trainingbible.com
Re: How Many minutes did Ryf Lose without Aero Lid [lightheir]
[ In reply to ]
lightheir wrote:
I can't help but think that for this level of athlete and that level of coach, she almost certainly tried the aero helmet in long training race prep rides, and for whatever reason (?position, ?comfort), ending up not being advantageous for her compared to a regular helmet.I am pretty sure that her coach, Brett Sutton, makes that decision without any data or testing to back up decision. So no, there was no testing to see if it would actually cause her to even feel hotter.
Re: How Many minutes did Ryf Lose without Aero Lid [motoguy128]
[ In reply to ]
Some new data (and statements below from) on aero road helmets found here: http://lavamagazine.com/...he-aero-road-helmet/
Most of the article is about the new Giro Synthe. One interesting paragraph in referring aero drag numbers:
And in their aero test (Wind average drag at 25 miles per hour in a ‘head-up” head tilt at 30 degrees), the Synthe came up with a drag number of 350.6 grams of drag. Comparatively, the Giro Air Attack 358.9 grams of drag.
And “Competitor A” “Competitor B” and “Competitor C?”
The other helmets tested were the Specialized Evade aero road helmet (359.2g), the Louis Garneau Corse aero road helmet (360.5g), the Poc Octal (378.8g), the Specialized Prevail road helmet (380.1g) and the Bontrager Oracle (380.5g).
The difference between the current Giro Air Attack -Specialized Evade-Louis Garneau Couse helmets are just under 2 grams via Giro testing standards (30 degree head angle). How does this compare to the aero road lids? Giro said the Air Attack was 16 grams better than the Synthe in drag with head down at a 60-degree head angle (a typical head-down position we hold in the course of an Ironman.
Most of the article is about the new Giro Synthe. One interesting paragraph in referring aero drag numbers:
And in their aero test (Wind average drag at 25 miles per hour in a ‘head-up” head tilt at 30 degrees), the Synthe came up with a drag number of 350.6 grams of drag. Comparatively, the Giro Air Attack 358.9 grams of drag.
And “Competitor A” “Competitor B” and “Competitor C?”
The other helmets tested were the Specialized Evade aero road helmet (359.2g), the Louis Garneau Corse aero road helmet (360.5g), the Poc Octal (378.8g), the Specialized Prevail road helmet (380.1g) and the Bontrager Oracle (380.5g).
The difference between the current Giro Air Attack -Specialized Evade-Louis Garneau Couse helmets are just under 2 grams via Giro testing standards (30 degree head angle). How does this compare to the aero road lids? Giro said the Air Attack was 16 grams better than the Synthe in drag with head down at a 60-degree head angle (a typical head-down position we hold in the course of an Ironman.
Re: How Many minutes did Ryf Lose without Aero Lid [Nick B]
[ In reply to ]
Nick B wrote:
It's not a theory, it's evidence.Theory is a hypotheses that has undergone and can undergo repeatable testing to prove it's value. So saying it is a theory was actually playing to your argument and is formed through evidence. For example, the 'Theory of Evolution' isn't just guesswork.
Small point, a bit pedantic, but worth making I feel.
https://www.pbandjcoaching.com
https://www.thisbigroadtrip.com
Re: How Many minutes did Ryf Lose without Aero Lid [Jaymz]
[ In reply to ]
Jaymz wrote:
Nick B wrote:
It's not a theory, it's evidence.Theory is a hypotheses that has undergone and can undergo repeatable testing to prove it's value. So saying it is a theory was actually playing to your argument and is formed through evidence. For example, the 'Theory of Evolution' isn't just guesswork.
Small point, a bit pedantic, but worth making I feel.
Sez you.
-bobo
"What's good for me ain't necessarily good for the weak-minded."
Re: How Many minutes did Ryf Lose without Aero Lid [Billyk24]
[ In reply to ]
Billyk24 wrote:
Some new data (and statements below from) on aero road helmets found here: http://lavamagazine.com/...he-aero-road-helmet/ Most of the article is about the new Giro Synthe. One interesting paragraph in referring aero drag numbers:
And in their aero test (Wind average drag at 25 miles per hour in a ‘head-up” head tilt at 30 degrees), the Synthe came up with a drag number of 350.6 grams of drag. Comparatively, the Giro Air Attack 358.9 grams of drag.
And “Competitor A” “Competitor B” and “Competitor C?”
The other helmets tested were the Specialized Evade aero road helmet (359.2g), the Louis Garneau Corse aero road helmet (360.5g), the Poc Octal (378.8g), the Specialized Prevail road helmet (380.1g) and the Bontrager Oracle (380.5g).
The difference between the current Giro Air Attack -Specialized Evade-Louis Garneau Couse helmets are just under 2 grams via Giro testing standards (30 degree head angle). How does this compare to the aero road lids? Giro said the Air Attack was 16 grams better than the Synthe in drag with head down at a 60-degree head angle (a typical head-down position we hold in the course of an Ironman.
A few questions:
1. Can someone from Specialized and LG corroborate these Giro numbers on their helmets
2. What is meant by 30 degrees head up
3. Is there any relationship to shoulders that plays into the 30 degrees head up. For example in the case of Kienle, his entire head is lower than his shoulders. In the case of Ryf, with head down, her head is lower than her shoulders and tucked in between upper arms. Carfree's head is always above shoulders.
Re: How Many minutes did Ryf Lose without Aero Lid [arby]
[ In reply to ]
The Evade is vented =)
Kat Hunter reports on the San Dimas Stage Race from inside the GC winning team
Aeroweenie.com -Compendium of Aero Data and Knowledge
Freelance sports & outdoors writer Kathryn Hunter
arby wrote:
I train in the deep South. Humidity is the killer. I melt in a non-vented helmet. I melt in a vented helmet, just not as much. They are faster no doubt, but to say that certain individuals that have a tendency to overheat might not be adversely affected with a non-vented helmet isn't realistic in my opinion.Kat Hunter reports on the San Dimas Stage Race from inside the GC winning team
Aeroweenie.com -Compendium of Aero Data and Knowledge
Freelance sports & outdoors writer Kathryn Hunter
Re: How Many minutes did Ryf Lose without Aero Lid [Macho Grande]
[ In reply to ]
here:
http://www.researchgate.net/...a_traditional_helmet
Eight people in 30 years at Kona have gone to the ICU with heat stroke. The last one (2013) was wearing a vented road helmet. Maybe, just maybe this is an individual issue.
But nonetheless go get me those studies and make sure they're not someone's blog or pontificating. Scientifically sound, peer reviewed studies. Go ahead and grab them, I'll wait.
Bob
Kat Hunter reports on the San Dimas Stage Race from inside the GC winning team
Aeroweenie.com -Compendium of Aero Data and Knowledge
Freelance sports & outdoors writer Kathryn Hunter
http://www.researchgate.net/...a_traditional_helmet
Macho Grande wrote:
Show me this studies, please. Show me the peer reviewed, scientifically sound, randomized studies that show a person in a non-vented helmet does not increase internal body temperature. Eight people in 30 years at Kona have gone to the ICU with heat stroke. The last one (2013) was wearing a vented road helmet. Maybe, just maybe this is an individual issue.
But nonetheless go get me those studies and make sure they're not someone's blog or pontificating. Scientifically sound, peer reviewed studies. Go ahead and grab them, I'll wait.
Bob
Kat Hunter reports on the San Dimas Stage Race from inside the GC winning team
Aeroweenie.com -Compendium of Aero Data and Knowledge
Freelance sports & outdoors writer Kathryn Hunter
Re: How Many minutes did Ryf Lose without Aero Lid [jackmott]
[ In reply to ]
Jack:
That is the exact article I was referencing and I would argue it has ZERO applicability to long course triathlons since they performed their assessment using a 12k TT on a very small group of 10 athletes. Is it a good start, sure, but to say, as someone did, that this article established a scientific fact is utterly absurd.
Bob
That is the exact article I was referencing and I would argue it has ZERO applicability to long course triathlons since they performed their assessment using a 12k TT on a very small group of 10 athletes. Is it a good start, sure, but to say, as someone did, that this article established a scientific fact is utterly absurd.
Bob
Re: How Many minutes did Ryf Lose without Aero Lid [Dan Funk]
[ In reply to ]
Dan Funk wrote:
Run For Money wrote:
Nick B wrote:
3-4minsRyf could've won Kona if she wore an aero helmet!
;0)
I'm assuming that's pink. :)
Sure, maybe she saves a couple minutes. But it sure seems like Rinny was gonna run her down no matter what. We have no idea if she could have kicked it into another gear throughout the run if Ryf was another minute or two ahead.
I'm guessing she could have.
It was meant to be in Pink.
But after looking at her setup on the bike, I have to admit there should be some upgrades. Sutton athletes don't seem to wear Aero Helmets in Kona, Chrissie never did in Kona, I am sure he thinks there is a disadvantage due to the heat, get her an aero helmet
Also the wheel setup not what you would see from a Uber Biker, the HED wheels I think are JET 6 in front and rear, either way the same wheel. Should be a JET-6 in front and JET-9 in rear setup or a like setup from ZIP.
And get the girl a proper race Kit.
Re: How Many minutes did Ryf Lose without Aero Lid [Macho Grande]
[ In reply to ]
Some counterpoints:
That study was done with cyclists that, over 12k, put out more power than just about any pro ironman cyclist does, and thus producing more heat as well.
That study was done in a 102 degF room, much hotter than Kona
That study was done with a fan producing a wind speed of 6 to 8mph, much less than you would get in kona
That study was done with a Giro Selector, with the visor on, which is a worst case scenario. One could hedge their bets by taking the visor off, or using a helmet like the Evade
Combine that with the real world experiments of Rinny and Craig, and I would suggest using an aero helmet, *especially* for Ryf, who was doing about ~225 watts average would have been producing about 17,000 less joules of heat per minute than the top pro men
That is the exact article I was referencing and I would argue it has ZERO applicability to long course triathlons since they performed their assessment using a 12k TT on a very small group of 10 athletes. Is it a good start, sure, but to say, as someone did, that this article established a scientific fact is utterly absurd.
Bob
Kat Hunter reports on the San Dimas Stage Race from inside the GC winning team
Aeroweenie.com -Compendium of Aero Data and Knowledge
Freelance sports & outdoors writer Kathryn Hunter
That study was done with cyclists that, over 12k, put out more power than just about any pro ironman cyclist does, and thus producing more heat as well.
That study was done in a 102 degF room, much hotter than Kona
That study was done with a fan producing a wind speed of 6 to 8mph, much less than you would get in kona
That study was done with a Giro Selector, with the visor on, which is a worst case scenario. One could hedge their bets by taking the visor off, or using a helmet like the Evade
Combine that with the real world experiments of Rinny and Craig, and I would suggest using an aero helmet, *especially* for Ryf, who was doing about ~225 watts average would have been producing about 17,000 less joules of heat per minute than the top pro men
Macho Grande wrote:
Jack: That is the exact article I was referencing and I would argue it has ZERO applicability to long course triathlons since they performed their assessment using a 12k TT on a very small group of 10 athletes. Is it a good start, sure, but to say, as someone did, that this article established a scientific fact is utterly absurd.
Bob
Kat Hunter reports on the San Dimas Stage Race from inside the GC winning team
Aeroweenie.com -Compendium of Aero Data and Knowledge
Freelance sports & outdoors writer Kathryn Hunter
Re: How Many minutes did Ryf Lose without Aero Lid [jackmott]
[ In reply to ]
My personal observation is anything that becomes an issue after 5+ hours at low intensity, I can find out in 10-20 minutes at super high intensity. My inclination is that I'll take what they found out in this short duration. The ONLY thing that they would be unable to test is the impact of any potential "heat distress" feeling (not actual core temp rise, but perceived) on the desire to ingest calories over a long race. On the other hand, an athlete may be more diligent about his/her liquid and electrolyte consumption.
Dev
Dev
Re: How Many minutes did Ryf Lose without Aero Lid [devashish_paul]
[ In reply to ]
Yeah, the study did not that people *felt* hotter whether or not they were. This didn't stop them from doing the same watts, but a lot of people worry about perception as reality.
I like to have the goal of defeating perception rather than being a slave to it =)
Dev
Kat Hunter reports on the San Dimas Stage Race from inside the GC winning team
Aeroweenie.com -Compendium of Aero Data and Knowledge
Freelance sports & outdoors writer Kathryn Hunter
I like to have the goal of defeating perception rather than being a slave to it =)
devashish_paul wrote:
My personal observation is anything that becomes an issue after 5+ hours at low intensity, I can find out in 10-20 minutes at super high intensity. My inclination is that I'll take what they found out in this short duration. The ONLY thing that they would be unable to test is the impact of any potential "heat distress" feeling (not actual core temp rise, but perceived) on the desire to ingest calories over a long race. On the other hand, an athlete may be more diligent about his/her liquid and electrolyte consumption. Dev
Kat Hunter reports on the San Dimas Stage Race from inside the GC winning team
Aeroweenie.com -Compendium of Aero Data and Knowledge
Freelance sports & outdoors writer Kathryn Hunter
Re: How Many minutes did Ryf Lose without Aero Lid [devashish_paul]
[ In reply to ]
What about on the run? Some wear visors, some hats, some nothing. Some wear full sleeves, some short sleeves, some sleeveless. Personally I "feel" hotter in a cap and prefer a visor, although some would argue a cap with your neck covered is actually cooler. I think performance can be influenced by how an athlete feels. If I am convinced I am hotter with a cap or aero lid it may influence my performance.
Re: How Many minutes did Ryf Lose without Aero Lid [arby]
[ In reply to ]
Conquer your feelings.
Kat Hunter reports on the San Dimas Stage Race from inside the GC winning team
Aeroweenie.com -Compendium of Aero Data and Knowledge
Freelance sports & outdoors writer Kathryn Hunter
arby wrote:
I think performance can be influenced by how an athlete feels. If I am convinced I am hotter with a cap or aero lid it may influence my performance.Kat Hunter reports on the San Dimas Stage Race from inside the GC winning team
Aeroweenie.com -Compendium of Aero Data and Knowledge
Freelance sports & outdoors writer Kathryn Hunter
Re: How Many minutes did Ryf Lose without an Aero Lid [devashish_paul]
[ In reply to ]
I addition to the helmet, her bike set up could use some work. Why for the love of god did she have a bike pump electrical taped to the her seatpost? The seat post is a great aero shape that will produce lots of lift in yaw, and she goes and messes it up with a bike pump? Plus, she should have neutral support anyway right? Even if she does not have neutral support, CO2 is much faster than a pump anyway. Also, why does she have a square bento box velco'd in front of her seat post? Her IA has space for a spares in the frame and a separate compartment for nutrition. Mirinda's set up had all her spares inside the frame.
Re: How Many minutes did Ryf Lose without an Aero Lid [chaparral]
[ In reply to ]
Her coach is Brett Sutton
I guess Sutton though she could bike fast enough to win with a bike pump attached to the frame, and it was worth having less risk on course in case of a flat.
Neutral support is almost never available
Of course you could learn to use a co2.
Kat Hunter reports on the San Dimas Stage Race from inside the GC winning team
Aeroweenie.com -Compendium of Aero Data and Knowledge
Freelance sports & outdoors writer Kathryn Hunter
I guess Sutton though she could bike fast enough to win with a bike pump attached to the frame, and it was worth having less risk on course in case of a flat.
Neutral support is almost never available
Of course you could learn to use a co2.
chaparral wrote:
I addition to the helmet, her bike set up could use some work. Why for the love of god did she have a bike pump electrical taped to the her seatpost? The seat post is a great aero shape that will produce lots of lift in yaw, and she goes and messes it up with a bike pump? Plus, she should have neutral support anyway right? Even if she does not have neutral support, CO2 is much faster than a pump anyway. Also, why does she have a square bento box velco'd in front of her seat post? Her IA has space for a spares in the frame and a separate compartment for nutrition. Mirinda's set up had all her spares inside the frame.Kat Hunter reports on the San Dimas Stage Race from inside the GC winning team
Aeroweenie.com -Compendium of Aero Data and Knowledge
Freelance sports & outdoors writer Kathryn Hunter
Re: How Many minutes did Ryf Lose without Aero Lid [Run For Money]
[ In reply to ]
Run For Money wrote:
Nick B wrote:
3-4minsRyf could've won Kona if she wore an aero helmet!
;0)
Nah.. Rinny would just have run faster and caught her later. We don't know how fast Runny can run but I am betting it is even faster than 2:50.
Re: How Many minutes did Ryf Lose without Aero Lid [johnnybefit]
[ In reply to ]
johnnybefit wrote:
Run For Money wrote:
Nick B wrote:
3-4minsRyf could've won Kona if she wore an aero helmet!
;0)
Nah.. Rinny would just have run faster and caught her later. We don't know how fast Runny can run but I am betting it is even faster than 2:50.
Since she didn't collapse at the line... I believe she had another 60-90 seconds in her over the last 10k if needed... but probably not much more.
TrainingBible Coaching
http://www.trainingbible.com
Re: How Many minutes did Ryf Lose without Aero Lid [devashish_paul]
[ In reply to ]
devashish_paul wrote:
Billyk24 wrote:
Some new data (and statements below from) on aero road helmets found here: http://lavamagazine.com/...he-aero-road-helmet/ Most of the article is about the new Giro Synthe. One interesting paragraph in referring aero drag numbers:
And in their aero test (Wind average drag at 25 miles per hour in a ‘head-up” head tilt at 30 degrees), the Synthe came up with a drag number of 350.6 grams of drag. Comparatively, the Giro Air Attack 358.9 grams of drag.
And “Competitor A” “Competitor B” and “Competitor C?”
The other helmets tested were the Specialized Evade aero road helmet (359.2g), the Louis Garneau Corse aero road helmet (360.5g), the Poc Octal (378.8g), the Specialized Prevail road helmet (380.1g) and the Bontrager Oracle (380.5g).
The difference between the current Giro Air Attack -Specialized Evade-Louis Garneau Couse helmets are just under 2 grams via Giro testing standards (30 degree head angle). How does this compare to the aero road lids? Giro said the Air Attack was 16 grams better than the Synthe in drag with head down at a 60-degree head angle (a typical head-down position we hold in the course of an Ironman.
A few questions:
1. Can someone from Specialized and LG corroborate these Giro numbers on their helmets
2. What is meant by 30 degrees head up
3. Is there any relationship to shoulders that plays into the 30 degrees head up. For example in the case of Kienle, his entire head is lower than his shoulders. In the case of Ryf, with head down, her head is lower than her shoulders and tucked in between upper arms. Carfree's head is always above shoulders.
More from the Lava Magazine:
this is what the 30 degree angle looks like in the testing chamber:
full view:
In this Lava magazine article it is mentioned that four windtunnels were utilized for testing: University of Washington and British Columbia, FASTER in Scottsdale Arizona and Giro's in house setup. A thermal test of 30 minutes at all 73F was performed and the article's authors noted a "large" difference (exact numbers not stated) between the Giro aero Selector helmet and the new aero road Synthe.
I have no connections with any bicycle, helmet or other company. Yes it would be an interesting read if we could get additional data or even independent examination of the new aero road helmets and compared to the full aero triathlon/time trial helmets.
Neutral support is almost never available
Frodeno was probably grateful......
Pink? Maybe. Maybe not. You decide.
Last edited by:
japarker24: Oct 13, 14 8:36