Speaking of which, whatever happened to all those glasses we were all supposed to be riding around with by now?

QUESTION: What about this 1x aero kit?!

How much gear range do we lose from the regular 2x11 most of us running nowadays?!

For me this is the crux of the 'discussion'. But from a different angle. Up until last year my road bike was a cannondale R700 with a whole load of upgrades to wheels, bars, a Quarq etc, and did everything I needed it to. Looked like shit, didn't bother me as when I'm sat on it I don't see it, and annoyed the crap out of all those who were looking at the back of it at the end of sprints from their carbon steeds. However, the 9sp shifter finally reached the end of it's life. Fair enough, 9sp is well gone, but I couldn't even get 10 speed. And 11 speed of course would mean new hubs.... So I needed to get a new bike (ok, cry me a river).

Same with my TT bike, it's 10 speed and has SRAM 80 wheels. Can't put 11 speed on, frame can't fit wide rims, so I can't do any updgrade there. But there is absolutely zero technical reason that Shimano Di2 couldn't index to 10 speed. They deliberately chose not to.

And so for me this isn't the 'gay marriage' argument, because my choices are being curtailed as a result of 'progress'. And what we have now is groupsets that are moving away from 'standardization', but pretty soon we run the risk of frames being groupset specific (BB sizes? Wireless only?) and then I see a real issue for the sport more generally. Great this halo stuff is out there. But the comments above about people selling the bike after 3 years so the PM is not an issue fails to recognise that there are people buying and racing this stuff. And these aren't the ones that are putting $300 chainrings on, they are putting the $75 aftermarket ones.

You also mentioned the $250k motorcycle. That has an engine. I am now going to set everyone up for easy target practice on me. But this is cycling. Pedal cycling. Kinda the point of the sport (for me) is the relative simplicity of the kit. I'm mechanically minded so do all my own wrenching. I get stressed enough when my Quarq battery goes flat (always at wrong time), or I've forgotten to turn off my LED rear light and it's flat as I'm heading out for an early ride. Bluetooth integrated wireless shifting s just taking my kit in a direction I fundamentally don't want. And loop back to the beginning, I have serious concerns that this isn't the Gay Marriage situation as the unintended consequence is that there won't be mechanical alternatives as the tolerances for 20 speed cassettes preculde mechanical, and all the frames will be for 160mm hubs with no front mech bosses.
(ok, taking tin foil hat off now)

All good points.

But, without going way off topic, yes you can indeed run 11 speed on your old frames/bikes WITHOUT having to buy any new hubs or wheels.

How?
See:
https://www.darkspeedworks.com/blog-11speed.htm

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What?

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The halo product trickle down argument only works if things are trickling down, and force etap doesn't exist yet and it's been years. However, I'm not offended by the price. Just seems to me that if this is the way components are going i want no part in it. When i upgrade my groupset, i don't want to be forced to buy new wheels, new cranks, etc. Even if this does result in a cheaper offering later down the road, it's still too expensive because i have to replace everything instead of just my shifters and derailleurs. I couldn't even use this if i wanted anyway because the cranks are too long for both my tt and road bike, but that'sa different argument. This may be a technological win for sram. However, i see the closed system, incompatible with everything else, as a huge loss for the rest of us.

Is that 12x also 1x compatible by having some chain retention?

sram's launching some stuff in april. i have hints, but i'm not sure what. i think you might be gratified. that said, i don't think sram considers itself a leader in electronics. it doesn't have enough scale to compete in electronics in a downstream market. it's wheelhouse is in what it can do for 10t and 12 cogs in a 1x. i think if you look at what price you can buy nx eagle, for example, that's what sram does.

i'm guessing. pure guessing. but i think the downstream, affordable version of what you see with AXS is both 1x and 2x mechanical.

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Dan Empfield
aka Slowman

i'm pretty sure what you fear the problem is - or what a problem is - is the orphaning of older tech that won't be compatible with newer tech, i.e., you buy wheels today, you can't put them on the new bike you buy 3 years from today. do i understand you right?

and you brought up wheels, and it's funny you did, because i've given a lot of thought to the future of wheels and i see this precisely opposite of how you see it. the one big tech move that orphans wheels is to disc brake. otherwise, what we've seen is that hubs today are modular. you buy a wheel and you get a bunch of end caps. the drivers work like the end caps. in fact, for some years HED's been doing one better, and you can swap out the axles and cassette assemblies and move between shimano and campy.

and that's just at the hub. pretty much all top level wheels today - even aero wheels - are (or soon will be) wider between the beads (roughly 20mm), pave ready, and tubeless ready. that means you could ride the same wheel in a road race, a triathlon and in a gravel race. the only thing you can't do with that wheel is make its diameter smaller or larger.

what i see in my crystal ball is the "great convergence" where you will be able to choose parts from across use cases to make whatever bike you want.

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Dan Empfield
aka Slowman

You could get Tiagra 4700. If it was going on the bike you're describing, I can't imagine it offended your sensibilities to use a lower-end groupset. And as you say, 9-speed is well gone, but 10-speed isn't that far behind. The second iteration of 11-speed 105 came out last year. The first iteration of 11-speed 105 came out in 2014. For those keeping score at home, that's half a decade ago (and 10-speed 5700 came out in 2010). I know the mid-2010s sounds "recent', but in product terms it's really not. The higher-tier groupsets went 11-speed even earlier, of course. And yes, 12-speed will probably squash 11-speed over the course of the next decade. How long do you expect new examples of parts to be available after they're introduced?

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The point is, ladies and gentleman, that speed, for lack of a better word, is good. Speed is right, Speed works. Speed clarifies, cuts through, and captures the essence of the evolutionary spirit.

Thanks for replying. I get what you are saying, just I'll be honest I think I see it differently. Which is what discussion forums and conversation is all about.

To stick with the wheels, then you are right about the ability to swap end caps, etc, but I've still a garage full that won't work with my latest road bike because they were produced before they even new about the new standards. So my issue of longevity is still there, just as you say I potentially may get twice (or thrice) as much use in the first 3 years if I use on my TT, Road and Gravel bike. (lets not get into the 3 different wheel sizes for MTB making me carry a bag full of tubes when riding with my wife!)

For me, I tend to spend on top end stuff, then keep for a long time. As opposed to mid range and replace every 3 years. So I'm probably a minority and 'low value' (to the manufacturers) consumer. I'm still struggling with the idea we fund Buffalo bikes as essential transport for part of the world while jumping on a bandwaggon of supporting 'disposable' bikes with a life of 3 years.

I think I need to accept times have changed and my approach can't work. My MTB frame which is covered by a life warranty is onto it's 3rd frame in 6 years (of which it didn't move for 3+ years as I was injured). However, it cost $1200 to replace parts as the new frame had compatibility issues with various bits. Economically I should have skipped a lightly used 2012 Epic Expert and bought an Expert Comp.

Back to AXS. What the system offers is impressive and I can definitely see how it would make riding more pleasurable when out on it. With reference to mechanical 10 speed, then will it make riders faster - perhaps. Make the bike more reliable - unsure but I doubt it. Easier to maintain at home - no. Am I likely to buy it or even a lower level, no. Would I have a ride on one if I got the chance at a demo - in a heart beat, and then I may well see why those like Dan that have ridden it are so positive, and it's just the dinosaur keyboard warrior CAVE people (look it up) that are haters.

They're at least the leader in the narrow realm of wireless shifting. I think it's astonishing how reliable eTap was out of the gate. There have been zero firmware updates. The motors don't fail. The wireless doesn't have interference issues. There are no battery drain issues. I honestly don't know how they pulled that off given the myriad things that can go wrong with such a system.

Now maybe it's not feasible to make eTap cheaper and maintain that reliability, which I think is your point. That's certainly possible.

if you're bemoaning lifespan, that's one thing. if you're bemoaning orphaned standards, that's another thing. if you're bemoaning the ability to swap across platforms, that's another thing. they're all real things, and good to talk about, but i see very little that AXS has to do with any of it.

product lifespans. yes, that's a real thing. perhaps you bought from a bad manufacturers, both as regards the product and the terms by which the replacement frame arrives (cost to ship, cost to have parts swapped over). i don't know. i've had very good (knock on wood) luck on product life. the stuff i own tends not to break. but your concern is a real concern, that we also hear with automobiles, home appliances, etc.

orphaned standards: there's only 1 orphaned "standard" that's at issue here: the FD tab length and placement, if and when these guys come out with a 43/30 set of chain rings or something like that. otherwise, the big industry changeover is from rim brake to disc brake. yup. sorry! we're all going to have to deal with that. that said - and here's an example - my everyday gravel bike is disc brake, quick release axle. i've got zipp 303s on this bike. if i get another frameset, thru axles, AXS drive train, presto change-o, in 3 minutes the 303s are ready (just swap out end caps and driver body, and all wheel companies offer this now). when i compare this to the change from, say, 8sp to 9sp, 126.5mm rear spacing to 130mm, and more than i care to relive, to me (?) the industry is getting closer to, not further from, inoculation from the orphaned standard. further, as i wrote, what you'll see is a blurring - perhaps disintegration - of the lines between parts built for various use cases. i'd be shocked if eagle doesn't adopt the flat top chain; if all SRAM cranks don't migrate to direct mount; if the RDs don't mostly look alike; and if RDs work as both 1x and 2x. in other words, very few of these parts will be limited to specific use cases.

your beefs are real, and legitimate, but SRAM moving to 12sp didn't break your frame twice.

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Dan Empfield
aka Slowman

I guess I'm going ahead in that introducing a new standard can lead to orphaned standards. Shimano for example was a prime example when they brought out 10speed only wheels for a while for absolutely no engineering reason to not be backward compatible.

My 'beef' here is the notion of planned limited life with the chainring and the powermeter. Now, someone can buy a 3 year old bike and keep it running with cheap chainrings. In the future then they can't if it's got the AXS powermeter. However my argument falls down here (I hope) in that this is just AXS and there will be more traditional options. They can chose to ride without a powermeter to save money, not without a chainring with any teeth left on a working powermeter.

The MTB frame issue was one of standards - new frames don't have ANY front mech mounts they are 1x only. Hence you can't move over any groupset. As a result of 'progress' then the 2x has become an orphaned standard. I'll not comment on Specialized's quality as a manufacturer, but we can probably agree they sell sufficient volume to make this an issue for many cyclists.

And I've no concern at all about AXS itself. What I have a concern about is that it's a symptom of the direction all manufacturers will take, and as in the DC Rainmaker article that means anything bought before 'today' would need adaption - either for trainers, wheels, etc etc. So perhaps my post was in the wrong place, and I should have a separate 'flat earth believers all progress is bad' thread. Saying this with great respect and hopefully you see the intended tone in my posts.

Based on the reviews, this looks like an amazing group:

Likes:
- clutched RD, finally
- direct mount chainrings, finally
- great gearing options: huge range, tiny increments. basically perfect options for road and MTB riding.
- spacing in rear cassette apparently means quiet operation

Meh:
- brake and rotor redesign. Seems mostly aesthetic

Boo:
- XD drivers are good, but I could do without yet another freehub standard
- proprietary chain design. I'm sure other companies will eventually make a chain that works with it.

My main problem is my past experiences with various SRAM products:
- two failed pairs of brake master cylinders (SRAM Guides). Both failed shockingly quickly. SRAM should have recalled the Guides, especially as they were introduced in the wake of the Avid Juicy debacle. In fairness, SRAM replaced both of my pairs of levers on warranty, no questions asked.
- terrible road hydro feel in Force 1. Ultegra is night and day better feeling.
- a failed Force 1 lever, internals exploded on a cold day.
- leaking Rockshox seals on a Pike fork.
- a failed Zipp 303 rear hub, years ago.

I think the company is great at innovation, less great at testing and quality assurance. Shimano is boring by comparison, but dammit Shimano's stuff is bulletproof and tolerant of mistreatment.

add to the problem list: quarq customer service is the best in the business lol

no thanks shimano di2 works every time all the time!!!

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The entire event (IM) is like "death by 1000 cuts" and the best race is minimizing all those cuts and losing less blood than the other guy. - Dev

The overwhelmingly issue people have with AXS is the price combined with the fact that’s it’s not a major advancement. So why should we pay a premium to “upgrade”?? Something Jan doesn’t have to worry about.

I don’t think anyone is suggesting that AXS is a shitty system that’s going to slow anyone down. I’m not a fan of 1x for tri personally. I like close gearing and want all available options. But that’s just my personal preference. I will say that I will be curious to see if Jan stays with 1x through the year.

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blog

Not shitty, but people are suggesting that AXS *might* cost on the order of 1-2W relative to a system that allows running a bigger ring/cog combo with the same effective gearing. Which wouldn't change very many race results, but wouldn't be optimal for TTers who just put the bike in a relatively large gear all day.

But we don't know what we don't know. Maybe the new RD damper system releases chain tension with small cogs and that offsets the losses. Or something.

I guess if the aero benefits of 1x offset any inefficiencies in the 12 speed drivetrain then its going to be more or less a performance equal to 2x11 etap with some simplicity and benefits of newer technology. I've only ever done triathlon on 1x, including a very hilly 70.3 Worlds in Chattanooga, and have never had any issues with the gear spacing but then again its all I've ever known. That's kind of why I was surprised to see Jan on 1x as well. From what I've heard most very good cyclists and TT'ers will never switch to 1x for gearing reasons.

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Benjamin Deal - Professional - Instagram - TriRig - Lodi Cyclery
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Yes, the speed at which Eagle 1x12 trickled down the lineup was astounding. 1x11 road w/hydro discs went from Force to Apex pretty quickly, as well. SRAM will probably be the first with a reasonable priced mechanical road 12-speed, but I can see why AXS/eTap will remain a higher end offering. The budget minded amongst us hope there will still be cross-compatibility, and that you'll be able to piece together a somewhat cheaper electronic setup by pairing the AXS eTap derailleurs and shifters with Force or even Rival level cranks, chains, and cassettes.

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"They're made of latex, not nitroglycerin"

Will it be possible to just swap out the blip box on the old etap? Would be great to get the smaller one so it can be better hidden.

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Terrible Tuesday’s Triathlon

As a cyclist I'm excited by the tech, but as a German I feel a bit guilty being excited by the new AXS Power.

If you're going to try to redefine standard chainring combos, and go through the effort of convincing people that the new options make sense, this would seem to be a great time to sensibly broaden the gearing range and try and sell people on lower* options that would actually be suitable for most riders.
But nope, the 3 options are in ~5% gearing increments, and even choosing the lowest one means burning gear ratios by having a straight block that starts with a gear that's higher than a 50-11.

If you're going to try to redefine standard chainring combos, and go through the effort of convincing people that the new options make sense, and you have a computer-controlled shifting system, this would seem to be a great time to reintroduce an option that utilizes a half-step-esque arrangement to offer an absolutely huge range without any widely-spaced gears.
But nope, neither Shimano nor SRAM nor Campy have done this, for some reason. Because it's not like being able to cover a 500+% range with no >10% gear steps would be totally awesome or anything.

:/


Not that I disagree that the rapid death of "standards" is kind of annoying. The average bike shop has a better selection of replacement parts for my '79 Fuji than for a lot of the bikes on their own show floor! But...

If the problem is that your 9-speed shifter died, why not just get a new 9-speed shifter?

Took me a minute, LOL!

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"They're made of latex, not nitroglycerin"

First, SRAM *did* broaden the gear range. On both ends. So you just think it's not sensible. And they have more 1-tooth jumps than competitor road groups.

It sounds like maybe you'd prefer cassette options with those 1-tooth jumps be shifted "up cassette" rather than packed between 10 and 17?

Hmm. I prefer what SRAM did here. I like the range all in one cassette, with, in my opinion, very reasonable jumps. When I'm doing a super climbing day and want ratios near 1.00, I typically am also having a super descending day and want the bike control during descents given by 53-11 type ratios.