I think I read all the articles and posts to this thread, but didn't see this question - if AXS has sequential shifting, will it become available with etap?

note: you can run DUB and BB30 in a BB86 bottom bracket, no problem. Only BB90/92 cannot be run with DUB and BB30.

For Tri, the 10-33 paired with a 44t chainring will do the trick. But, for road riding, I'd definitely prefer 44 x 10-36

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wovebike.com | Wove on instagram

QXL rings? Well in that case, the AXS crankset is not for you.

I think that in fairness to Dan and SRAM, there is a lot of really cool stuff in Red AXS, 12 speed, gearing ranges, innovative RD chain retention, 12 speed chain that is alleged to be quieter and better shifting than 11 speed...

If SRAM has really closed the gap in shifting speed, then I think my only two objections would be the chainring/PM limitations and price. The latter will come down I'm sure and if there is a workaround for the former...

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Amateur recreational hobbyist cyclist
https://www.strava.com/athletes/337152
https://vimeo.com/user11846099

The problem is, they don't sell many 8K TVs right now in part because there isn't the content to support it and very few folks will shell out that kind of money for that. Even 4K is lacking in content, but the cost to buy a 4K is practically the same as just HD. This from a market that includes as close to 100% of the population as you can really get. There are folks that will spend 50K on a watch or $3M on a car, but they don't sell many of these. These types of products have one simple purpose. To give people with more money than they can ever spend, something to spend it on.

When it comes to bikes, and especially high end racing bikes, the market just isn't big enough to support such extravagant ridiculous group sets. They are pricing themselves out of the market. They would be better off making improvements to the current offering and working on ways to lower the prices to sell more units and make more of a profit. Maybe i'm wrong, but I just don't see them selling many of these.

True, you can run DUB in a BB86 shell. But the bearing size required to fit that large a spindle in that diameter shell is sub-optimal.

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"They're made of latex, not nitroglycerin"

I forget where I read it, but I believe SRAM has no intention of making any firmware updates with etap (so no).

I think this is an interesting comparison. 20 years ago who were the players in the powermeter game? Mostly SRM I presume. And they are still very expensive - I’m guessing similar to what they were in 1999. No trickledown. Prices have just now started to decrease by major players (powertap, quarq, Garmin) since there are so many inexpensive options available (power2max, assioma, stages) that they’ve likely started to feel the squeeze of pricing themselves out of the market.

As for discs. My history isn’t as good as yours, but I’m guessing Zipp was one of the original players. Not sure what they were running back in 1988, but everything they offer now is north of 2000. You can get cheaper discs from other brands, of course.

So what this tells me is sram is going to continue to be a halo product and we’ve gotta wait for a different company to join the party and either squeeze sram (and/or Shimano prices down) or just offer a 95% as good alternative at a much lower price

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Matt

Now that I know that Force AXS is coming at Sea Otter my rancor is dampened.

Probably.

Ok, I did more digging on this and a German Sram rep confirmed the “mullet” setup has a 38t max chainring size as I suspected. Sooo, you may wanna double check with your Sram contact before advocating this. The source I found could have been wrong too, but I suspect you can’t use large rings with a 10-50.

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I'm trying to comprehend why a larger chainwheel wouldn't work, and failing....othe than there maybe not being enough chain links on a bike with longer chain stays, a situation which can be remedied fairly easily.

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"They're made of latex, not nitroglycerin"

let me add some historical perspective. power meters. yes. you're about right. i think the SRM has probably come down maybe $500. but let's just say that it's the same, for grins. the dollar today is worth about half as much as it was 20 years ago. and, SRM is the only company - the ONLY company - in the power meter world that hasn't come down more than, say, 15 or so percent. another PM that was around 20 years ago was powertap's hub, and that's probably a third less than it was then, which means in real dollars it's come down by two-thirds.

zipp was probably 5th or 6th at best. the first one i knew of was aerosports. $2000 in 1985 as i remember. this was a 4- or 5-person partnership, between gary hooker and dave spangler (hooker header partners), chet kyle, scott and vickie gordon, and maybe the french guy who made the original tri spoke carbon wheel, rene (last name escapes me). imagine what $2000 in 1985 was in buying power back then.

i just don't think there is any history - any history - that supports your theory. you can argue this all the way down and it's just going to be a loser debate. where do you think veloce, 105, rival come from if you don't think it's record, DA and RED?

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Dan Empfield
aka Slowman

i'll check.

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Dan Empfield
aka Slowman

interested in seeing this 1x article.

a 50 x 11-50 is equivalent to a 55x11 and 34x34. My guess is that most people would opt for tighter spacing over that astronomical gear range.

I really liked Rotor's 1x13 gearing chart: http://rotorbike.com/...18/07/ROTOR-1x13.pdf


a 46 x 10-39 would be a bit easier than 34x28 and a bit harder than 50x11 with reasonable gear spacing.

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wovebike.com | Wove on instagram

All I’m saying is just a few years ago u cos get the top of the line bike for $ 4500-5000 . Now you get a top of line trek and it’s $13,000 for a bicycle . I love bicycles i usually buy a new one every year yes I’m spoiled . All I’m saying is when u can buy a Honda motorcycle cheaper there is a problem . It’s just got to the point where it’s a huge purchase and i question when will it end .

$1 from 20 years ago is worth $1.46 today based on actual inflation.

Exactly. The price creep even taking into account inflation and everything else is absurd.

Think of all the parts, engineering, electronics, research, crash testing etc required to design and manufacture a car compared to a bike and the costs just don't add up.

Price creep is when like-for-like products become gradually more expensive.

What we're seeing here is simply the top-end getting higher. The costs are obscene because you've scraped all the way through the bottom of the diminishing returns barrel and are chipping away at the concrete floor the barrel is sitting on.

You can still get a $5000 bike, and it's in some ways better than a $3,300 bike was in 1999.

Remember, Rotor said they were going to offer 12 speed cassettes with the same gears sans the 10T small cog.....and that they'd fit on a standard HG freehub. Curious to know if the Rotor cog spacing will be the same as SRAM.

And, for 1x, you really don't need the SRAM 12s chainrings. The current crop of 10/11S 1x chain wheels will work. Alas, they're not selling the Eagle ASX RD's stand-alone, yet. That would make it too easy (cheap) for folks with Eagle mechanical to upgrade, I guess. So, for now, on a road application, we're stuck with a 33T largest rear cog.

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"They're made of latex, not nitroglycerin"

I'm hoping for this as well!

Are individual component weights listed anywhere? And pricing for the RD and new blip box?

$1350 for a RD, blip box, two Clicks, and two Blips

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"They're made of latex, not nitroglycerin"

yes, there are $13,000 bicycles. because a bicycle exits that costs as much as a motorcycle, you're mad at cycling. but you're aware that there are motorcycles that cost a quarter mil, right? that's obscene! therefore no motorcycles for you! there's also cars that costs as much as mansions. no cars!

looks like you're going to be walking. barefoot. because, have you seen what top of the line shoes cost!

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Dan Empfield
aka Slowman

So we should be praising SRAM now when they should have given you that gear/gain ratio back when 1x was first introduced? Now it just costs you a shit ton of money to get you what you should have already had.

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blog

I agree it's a risk.

And I agree that SRAM has been inconsistent. They introduced eTap at the high end and haven't trickled it down. Then they introduced mechanical 1x at the lower end (Rival/Force) and failed to trickle it up.

The safe, natural progression would have been for us to be seeing Force eTap and Red 1x about now. Instead of doing the safe thing, they must mashed their finger on the reset button and changed the whole game. I think history will look at all the individual innovations kindly. The freehub, smaller direct-mount rings, etc. But I agree this first iteration may not take off like wildfire. I'm a six-figure income guy with no kids, and bikes being my one vice. And I'm not touching this stuff anytime soon.

But SRAM is playing the long game. Which is smart. I bet in 10 years most of this stuff will be fully mainstream and on Rival-level kit.

Thanks! So $2500 with batteries, charger, crankset, cassette, and XDR conversions for a 1x. Ouch. I'm starting to think Rotor 1x13 may come out cheaper.