I think this got botched in the press release but it appears that the 1x pms are still spider based up to 42t (...or 46t? I forget). Check out SRAMs website. I'm not a fan of integrated the chainring and PM either.

except its not just the 10 where you will be losing a watt or two. you would be using less efficient cogs(<14) more frequently, esp low rpm triathletes

When I look at this vs an existing 2x11 eTap setup, I see a whole bunch of new, but most of what I see that is new doesn't present itself as functionally better, just different. To me, the newness doesn't reflect 1.500 euro or whatever the delta is in actual value, it's mostly just stuff wrapped up a little differently.

Where'd you find that deal?!

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This whole group is kind of a hard no for me. I don't like the gearing, i don't like the crank lengths, i don't like the incompatibility with other manufacturers. Just don't see any upsides when compared to ultegra di2

your problem is with sram's (and other companies that do this) lack of "contextualization," no? that they don't tell us this when they launch a new product - this tech will flow down - so as to establish a timeline.

but...what you're doing here is feeding that machine. the articles on the front page. the forum posts.

which i get. you have to sell ads. that's just math. and this is getting a lot of looks.

but a lot of looks are like mine where i look at this new group and just think: "no fucking way. it's way too expensive."

it's off putting, honestly. bikes don't have to be draped with $3500 groupsets, and the average customer who reads about bikes before coming in will likely get served ads and articles that cater to this type of impression. maybe they never come in to a real bike shop because they assume "real" bikes are gonna cost as much as their car.

i think there's a massive disconnect between the manufacturer and 98% of the consumers.

ETA -

Furthermore, to worse the issue with "contextualization" of their product lineup, SRAM chooses to develop an entirely new eTap before going "Force [OG] eTap." Or something like that. So it just worsens the "contextualization" issue. It'd be like if Cervelo completely redesigned the P5x before coming out with a P3x. It wouldn't go well with consumers.

maybe. it depends on the efficiency of the system itself. if we're talking fractions of a watt, and one system is just more efficient than another, i think this whole theme gets swallowed up and becomes more political than technical. nevertheless, we were all tech editors in a room, and i raised my hand and said, "i promise you my readers are going to zero in on friction associated with a decrease on cog tooth size; you'd better have answers at the ready, or my folks won't get past this."

i spoke afterward to the road product manager, and i told him to get all his facts and data prepared for this, because i knew it was coming. i'll report to you what he has to say.

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Dan Empfield
aka Slowman

so far what I have seen is basically a lot of hand waving as to why it is not an issue, and it may not be for a lot of folks, but for the ones trying to gain every last aero and drivetrain watt, it does not seem to be the right direction. folks like Grill will intentionally go to extra large front rings to gain efficiency

i am with you, not on sram now and definitely not with this, at this point. but i also don't get 10k road bikes, for folks that race, ie one heck of an expensive crash potentially

i don't like to be "that guy" who's touting his ethics. but i preemptively wrote, some posts up, about my financial approach to this, to hopefully head off the posts that, decoded, impugn my ethics, which is what you just did. so, can you go read that post? and then we can continue the conversation?


i have a 6 year old campy chorus groupset on my road bike, and it works perfectly. the existence of this new groupset does not affect the quality or enjoyment of my ride. what you're basically saying here is that you've got groupset envy; that cycling for you is just not fun unless you have the latest groupset. that the mere existence of this groupset made your current bike less fun to ride.

while that's unfortunate, i do think brands need to give those stricken with halo envy hope for trickle down. but they don't, because they don't want to cannibalize their current halo product sales. i don't think that's a rational fear. more urgent is what you and others are writing, that there's just this product that seems out of reach. SRAM has not articulated its price migration pathway for this tech. nor does cervelo do that, nor specialized nor most brands. they just stick these $15,000 bikes out there and say, "look at this product you can't afford!"

so, i've asked SRAM for an interview, and i gave them the questions in advance, and this is among them. this issue you raise. having said that, here is an $1,800 gravel bike from trek that i would be very happy aboard. the logical implication of your post is that you want new tech to immediately flow to this price point. that's just not realistic. were it not for a lot of halo product you wouldn't now have this trek. i think a nice middle ground is for you to understand that new tech has a top-down price flow; and that companies should state if and when and how that flow will happen, to keep faith with you and me.

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Dan Empfield
aka Slowman

Is only limited in order to get sku #'s down. As you can imagine, there's A LOT of sku's with this new group when you account for eight 1x size chainrings (power and non-power), three 2x combos (power and non-power), six different crank lengths, etc.

Most road enthusiasts don't care for anything less than 172.5, 170 is pushing it. Therefore, the market for a 2x system with less than 170mm cranks becomes very unappealing.

Same goes for offering 162.5mm cranks, we found there's not really a big demand for that size that can justify the development cost when so many other moving parts are being develop.

I agree with you, integrated power meter is the way to go. The integrated power meters provides more accuracy and are by far lighter weight. Removing the weakest link which is the spider and creating a one piece chainring with integrated power, opened the door to newer opportunities that haven't been explored before.

That being said, if you still in FL, I see no use for a 2x system, I would be on a 1x with 11-26 cassette for both road or TT bike. I can't remember ever being on the small ring back then when we raced together.

Hope you're still killing it out there!

I think it boils down to that there is marginal benefit (if any) to "upgrading" to this AXS groupset compared to e-tap or di2. And people aren't willing to spend $$$$ for no real benefit other than wanting something new and shiny. Even for someone who's still running mechanical, why would they spend the money on AXS when they could source e-tap or di2 for cheaper? There's no major advancement in tech with the AXS groupset compared to the current groupsets we have now to justify the cost of replacing their current groupset. If this was the first electronic groupset to ever be released, that's a big advancement in tech. But this isn't that....

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no, i didn't. you say you've got a bike with this groupset in your garage right now, no? did you pay retail for that bike? any judgement you (or anybody in your shoes) make on it is biased due to the CONTEXT of your review. it's impossible to be objective. even if you've forked over msrp it's still IMPOSSIBLE to be objective, because you will - almost certainly - talk yourself into the product. it's inevitable. it's human nature.

it's not really a question of ethics. you make money by people coming to this site. i enjoy slowtwitch immensely and i am glad it exists. i do not run any adblock software/plugins because i know that my eyeballs matter to the bottom line. you are in the position you are in because you command a certain number of monthly page visits. you have a certain "type" of reader/customer. i don't think i'm maligning you or slowtwitch by saying any of those things i've said, it's the nature of a business.

you are an influencer. you...matter. most of us only matter because we create the platform for you to matter. you have a chance to actually affect the direction companies take with their products. do THAT, a lot. which it seems like you do and will do.

i was talking with someone the other day and the topic was something bike related. it's vague in my memory because i've talked to a LOT of different and new people this week, but it revolved around the idea that whoever was designing the product had absolutely no fucking idea how the product was actually going to be used in everyday life. it's not a new thing, that idea. but from the design engineer -> support tech -> inside sales rep -> outside sales rep -> retail store manager -> retail store mechanic -> retail store salesperson -> customer is a frigging long ass chain of hierarchy and use case.

i'm going tangential to the OT, but i think products like this just galvanize my whine button to be pressed. it's just like: "what are these companies thinking?" i'd like to know more about that.

do you work for sram?



man, this just seems like a massive, overarching miss.

I can’t disagree with you there even if I’m personally intrigued by AXS. Integrated Di2 has superior battery life and damn good shifting plus things like chains, chainrings, power meters, cranks, etc are widely available and comparatively inexpensive.

An interesting wrinkle in all of this is that Shimano’s XTR factory recently caught fire and supposedly this will delay their 12 Speed group giving SRAM even more time to capture that market.

I'm SRAM "fanboi" as well and have been for years. I even dressed a sram force group up to look like MicroShift when I "had to use" that on JB. Total brick wall for me on the new PM, but the rest of the group, is still cool to me. I would love to have it but its a want and not a need. Then again I don't really want or need the 10T cog so I'll be happy if I can get my hands on the 11s etap for now.

The best thing about SRAM is 1 the weight and 2 the warranties. I accept everything breaks, and there has been a little down time with each warranty but I've gotten a new front shifter and new medium cage rd recently for about $15, with the help of the LBS.

Yep, this is pretty much my take on the new AXS group after digesting a lot of content over the last 24 hours. I was a first year adopter on Etap - I got a great deal so it really wasn't too expensive. I'm just not seeing any real performance benefit from my 2x11 etap to the 2x12 AXS. The price tag is just bananas to boot! My only complaint with my current 2x11 etap is the FD battery doesn't clear larger tires and AXS doesn't even seem to address that!

I'm curious to see how this new system sells. I'm going to bet it doesn't have nearly the success of the 11sp system at this price point - particularity with no performance improvement that I can see.

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bro, i didn't pay anything for that bike. but i'm not keeping it. it's a very nice parlee, that is going right back to SRAM, probably at my expense to ship it. however, i did pay for that 6yo campy chorus groupset on my everyday rider. full retail. i like that group too. campy advertises elsewhere.

you're trying very hard to find out what consideration was given me for writing positive things about this AXS groupset. i turned down the ad buy. i paid my own flight to the launch. i paid my own rental car. it was 3 days i'd rather have spent here at the office earning money. it cost me a lot of money to write what i'm writing about SRAM. you're right, ads pay for this site. but not SRAM ads. i'd make every bit the same money if i wrote that i didn't like the groupset. sorry to disappoint.

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Dan Empfield
aka Slowman

dan i think you're missing my point.

i don't think any consideration was given to you for writing anything about SRAM AXS. i think they hoped you would like it because they thought it was a well designed group, and that's it. beyond that i couldn't care less.

but you did write an article on it. and that article (but also the forum thread) is creating page views. those page views in and of themself are a consideration. not a direct one, sure. but if that article and this thread didn't exist, you'd have fewer eyeballs to sell (not to SRAM, as you say).

i think you think that i'm faulting you for that. i'm not.

i am faulting sram for putting the cart before the horse. i think this group is well thought out, but is problematic in a few ways. number 1 being its place within sram's product timeline.

no, i think i got your point loud and clear, and was reinforced when you asked me whether i paid full retail for the bike in my garage. i think we all got it loud and clear. and if i totally panned the groupset i'd get MORE eyeballs and attaboys than if i wrote that i liked it.

my crystal ball: what will happen is that this group will push SRAM forward, it will become a part of a successful narrative, and it will bridge and tie SRAM's 1x product family with its 2x family. if you don't see that, then it's my failure in not writing about this group properly. (tho i think it will become more clear when i write the 1x article.)

all that said, i've already noted that this new component family is incomplete. there are important crankset lengths missing (for us); and there is important low gearing missing (for everyone). the low gear thing is interesting, because solving this either at the chain ring or at the cogset has implications on frame design (if at the chain ring) or in the length of the derailleur cage. i've no doubt SRAM will get to this, and this new groupset finally provides an attractive pathway for catering to the gearing needs of road weekenders and gravel riders.

and of course there are important price categories not yet addressed and i don't mean not yet available, but not even addressed. and this is a general fault of the bike industry.

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Dan Empfield
aka Slowman

The only significant change I could see from upgrading my existing 11 speed etap to this group would be the hole in my wallet. It is neat, but the price is nuts. I am totally and completely disinterested.

i would definitely agree that OG eTap kind of put SRAM back in consumer minds when they were thinking about new, premium, road groupsets. in theory, this group can/will do same.

they've slayed the MTB world for years now, and for a (relatively) small company what they've done vs. Shimano is quite impressive.

I think this groupset really is a big advancement and I think the price is reasonable. I get that people would rather pay for Ultegra Di2 and for an upcoming Force eTap, but I don't think the current price detracts from this group, and I think it's ground breaking.

First up, look at the crankset. The mtb DUB system is as light as a THM M3 crank. So, we can assume the DUB road Red crank will also be in the ~300g range.... Well, that puts a 1x DUB Red crank sans quarq $570 cheaper than a 3T Torno. Add a Quarq pm and the DUB Red is still $60 cheaper. That said, I'm still the a-hole who'd opt for the Torno and a Powertap G4 hub...

Next, the 12s cassette with 10t rear cog. I mean, us 1x folks have been wanting this for so long. This alone make this group worth the praise. I can't wait to chuck my Force 1x RD and its clunky shifting, but I've been grateful for its clutch - even with dws sends me straight into a log in the middle of the road with no warning, there was no dropped chain.

Last, break down the price of AXS Red side by side with DA Di2 and I'm not seeing a huge discrepancy. Yeah, these top groups are expensive, but it appears to me that the AXS Red is actually slightly less than DA Di2 and that DA Di2 msrp has been pretty consistent for the past seven years. Why the outrage now?

oh, and that eTap dropper post. oh man that's definitely worth $1.2k..... ha

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wovebike.com | Wove on instagram

I don't mind spending some money on upgrades, in fact my bike's heading to the shop next week to have an alpha-one bar, QXL rings, and a premier bike chain installed. After debating it for a while I also decided to switch the 105 mechanical for ultegra di2 at the same time.

Initially when seeing the AXS content I wondered if I should consider skipping the di2... The fact it was more than double the price helped, but the real nail in the coffin was the lack of compatibly with non-SRAM parts. I want to use oval rings, I like my optimized chains, heck I run a sram cassette because I want a 16T in back.

Honestly I don't want to pay such a premium to be confined.

I agree with most of what you say, here. A quick look at what Dura Ace Di2 costs makes the pricing outrage seem off base. Yes, Red AXS is more than 11s eTap. But that product kind of had to straddle the line between DA Di2 and Ultegra Di2. This time, it appears a Force version is already in the pipeline. Red AXS can stay a pure premium product, while value-seekers can buy 11S eTap on closeout, or wait for Force AXS.

But it's not quite ready for road 1x primetime, yet. IMHO. Yeah, you can piece together a nice TT 1x setup. And, here in the flatlands, I could probably get away with a 40T or 42T Chainring and that 10-33T cassette. Put me anywhere with climbs and descents, though, and that's not enough range. The next step up is a 10-50 cassette.....along with an Eagle AXS rear derailleur. There's a gaping hole, there. Maybe it gets filled with the launch of Force AXS?

Also, as someone with two BB86 frames, I'm not thrilled about the abandonment of GXP for DUB.

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"They're made of latex, not nitroglycerin"