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SRAM AXS
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here's the first of several articles that will go up this morning. there's going to be a lot of talk about SRAM's new offerings here (12 speed, 10t 1st cog, etc.). this is your official thread, i guess.

Dan Empfield
aka Slowman
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Re: SRAM AXS [Slowman] [ In reply to ]
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Lots of good info in this GCN video as well.
I definitely feel like the new 12 speeds on the back is a bit overkill for 2x triathlon setups but I've been drooling over a 10 speed cog on the back for my 1x setup for awhile now. The integrated Quarq with the chain-rings looks super clean as well. Any news on a redesigned blip box or blips for TT?

Edit: Via Aerogeeks


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Last edited by: realbdeal: Feb 6, 19 7:28
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Re: SRAM AXS [Slowman] [ In reply to ]
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Retail prices start at 3038 US for 1x with rim brakes and no pm, and go up to 4158 US for 2x disc with pm.

Have fun everyone who can afford it!

Edit: Canyon will sell you an Ultimate CF SLX with 2x without the PM for 7500 (or for 6300 euro in europe)

https://www.canyon.com/en-us/road/ultimate/2019/ultimate-cf-slx-disc-9-0-sl
https://www.canyon.com/en-de/road/ultimate/2019/ultimate-cf-slx-disc-9-0-sl.html
Last edited by: mpquick: Feb 6, 19 8:32
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Re: SRAM AXS [mpquick] [ In reply to ]
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Yeah, eek on those prices.

FORCE ETAP coming in april??
https://cyclingtips.com/...red-etap-axs-review/
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Re: SRAM AXS [mpquick] [ In reply to ]
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mpquick wrote:
Retail prices start at 3038 US for 1x with rim brakes and no pm, and go up to 4158 US for 2x disc with pm.

Have fun everyone who can afford it!

i think you should bear in mind this is RED, which has never been cheap. i don't know - i'm going to try to wrangle it out of them - the downstream schedule. but i'd be shocked if this isn't all pretty cheap in 5 years, as it flows down to force, and lower, and comes out in mechanical versions. you could actually hang this on a $6000 and change road bike right now, with the PM, hydraulics, electronics.

Dan Empfield
aka Slowman
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Re: SRAM AXS [mpquick] [ In reply to ]
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And one of the delightful side-effects of SRAMs push for smaller front rings and rear cassettes is that you wear out the components quicker. If the cassettes cost anything like the Eagle cassettes this isn't so trivial.
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Re: SRAM AXS [PBT_2009] [ In reply to ]
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Shimano is very happy today. I think for gravel this is a good option, otherwise, stay with DI2.

Edit: those brake hoods are so bad. If you have a medium/small hand they are years behind Shimano from a ergonomic perspective.

http://riseabovecyclingpodcast.podbean.com/
Last edited by: Ron_Burgundy: Feb 6, 19 8:51
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Re: SRAM AXS [Slowman] [ In reply to ]
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The time in which professionals have to ride what amateur cyclists can be convinced to need is apparently running well .. edit: for over sea group sets ..

___/\___/\___/\___ the surfboard of the Kurpfalz is the road bike .. oSo >> Older, and faster ..
Last edited by: sausskross: Feb 6, 19 9:12
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Re: SRAM AXS [Slowman] [ In reply to ]
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170 mm shortest crank length on 2x. 165 mm shortest crank length on 1x.

Trent Nix
F.I.S.T. Advanced Certified Fitter | Retul Master Certified Fitter (back when those were things)
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Re: SRAM AXS [trentnix] [ In reply to ]
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i saw your FB comment on pricing below the article. here's some data on that:

2x HRD PM RED
AM RED AXS 2X GROUPSET HRD FM: $2,500.00
AM PM RED AXS D1 DUB 1725 4835: $1,200.00
AM CN RED D1 114LI W/ PWR.LCK 12S 1PC: $70.00
AM CS XG 1290 D1 10-28: $350.00
AM BB DUB ENGLISH 68/73: $38.00

Total: $4,158.00

2x HRD RED
AM RED AXS 2X GROUPSET HRD FM: $2,500.00
AM FC RED D1 DUB 1725 4835: $690.00
AM CN RED D1 114LI W/ PWR.LCK 12S 1PC: $70.00
AM CS XG 1290 D1 10-28: $350.00
AM BB DUB ENGLISH 68/73: $38.00

Total: $3,648.00

so, yes, i think you're right. $800 for the Quarq PM, but $1,200 if you want it into the crank. And you may as well, because i don't think it does you any good without the crank.

but, as i wrote in the article, i don't think this is an aftermarket item. i think where SRAM is going, long term, is that the PM is going to be part of the bike. period. and not just the PM. SRAM is saying with this group that there is no aftermarket. no aftermarket chains, pulleys, bearings, PMs. further, there's no OE downspec. they - and shimano - are trying hard to put FSA, wippermann, KMC, etc., out of the bike business. therefore, rotor, FSA, they're saying fine, we'll just take over the spec of the whole bike.

Dan Empfield
aka Slowman
Last edited by: Slowman: Feb 6, 19 9:33
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Re: SRAM AXS [Slowman] [ In reply to ]
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Slowman wrote:
....as it flows down to force, and lower....

I am curious how it would go down to Force without being re-painted Red. Sram is pretty well known for sharing parts between groups. The removable spider version of the Red cranks were just re-painted Force cranks. Same thing for the carbon fiber 8 bolt Quarq (and Red) from the last two years. I couldn't find any exterior difference in construction or weight other than 3 bolts vs. 8 bolts compared to an old Force 1 crank.

Maybe Sram would use a slightly heavier carbon fiber layup in this new crank mold? An alloy cage and less fancy pulley wheels on the rear derailleur? The electronics would have to be mostly the same kind of like the batteries and junctions boxes are all one 'level' in di2. Force has traditionally had carbon fiber brake levers and the internals for this would have to be similar. It's hard to imagine a Force version of this as anything other than less expensive Red. Maybe my lack of imagination is why I don't work in the industry though.
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Re: SRAM AXS [scott8888] [ In reply to ]
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scott8888 wrote:
And one of the delightful side-effects of SRAMs push for smaller front rings and rear cassettes is that you wear out the components quicker. If the cassettes cost anything like the Eagle cassettes this isn't so trivial.

i agree with your premise. but i don't agree with the outcome. i think a lot depends on how much more time you spend in the big ring. that could negate the argument. do you really change your rings a bunch on your MTB? or your 1x?

beyond that, i think the 5 to10 percent difference is how many more times your chain hits a tooth is way more than offset by the quality of the component. of all the things to worry about - and since i first rode this group last month i've tried to think of the things to worry about - this has fallen to the least of my concerns.

if you read what other tech editors around the industry are saying about this group, i think you'll find it's gotten a very good reception. this is by far, far and away, the best shifting system SRAM has made. certainly this is in part a result of mandating the 13-tooth differential between the rings; and no more long RD cages.

to me, the one thing SRAM hasn't yet done is sufficiently reduce the gearing for gravel. you'll either need to move to a smaller set of rings, or a larger cassette range. but each comes with an issue: move to a 40/33 and the frame companies need to come up with a new FD tab system. move to, say, a 10-36, and you need to start putting longer cages on your RDs again.

Dan Empfield
aka Slowman
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Re: SRAM AXS [trentnix] [ In reply to ]
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trentnix wrote:
170 mm shortest crank length on 2x. 165 mm shortest crank length on 1x.

On the quarq website, it only shows 170mm being the shortest available for 1x or 2x.

https://www.quarq.com/...wer-meter-cranksets/

Regardless, not having an option below 170mm on 1x or 2x is disappointing and a step in the wrong direction.

get comfortable being uncomfortable
Last edited by: stevej: Feb 6, 19 9:49
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Re: SRAM AXS [dangle] [ In reply to ]
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dangle wrote:
Slowman wrote:
....as it flows down to force, and lower....


I am curious how it would go down to Force without being re-painted Red. Sram is pretty well known for sharing parts between groups. The removable spider version of the Red cranks were just re-painted Force cranks. Same thing for the carbon fiber 8 bolt Quarq (and Red) from the last two years. I couldn't find any exterior difference in construction or weight other than 3 bolts vs. 8 bolts compared to an old Force 1 crank.

Maybe Sram would use a slightly heavier carbon fiber layup in this new crank mold? An alloy cage and less fancy pulley wheels on the rear derailleur? The electronics would have to be mostly the same kind of like the batteries and junctions boxes are all one 'level' in di2. Force has traditionally had carbon fiber brake levers and the internals for this would have to be similar. It's hard to imagine a Force version of this as anything other than less expensive Red. Maybe my lack of imagination is why I don't work in the industry though.

over the years, when i look at 105, ultegra, DA, the only real changes i see are: the prices; the places each are in along the version life; and the materials. steel versus titanium in some cogs. with campy? carbon versus aluminum RD parallelogram? i don't know that one is better than the other but if it is, maybe the cheaper aluminum is better. i don't know. same thing going on with bike frames.

and, of course, as you mention, the paint. no, it's not your lack of imagination. when you buy a cosmetic second, scratch and dent, and you get it home and you can't find the blem, what do you think you bought?

don't ask questions. just take the discount.

Dan Empfield
aka Slowman
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Re: SRAM AXS [Slowman] [ In reply to ]
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I haven't read through everything, but I'm not seeing the new Etap as having a viable 1x gravel option? The road cassettes don't have sufficient low gears and the mtn cassette is only 10-50, but I doubt you could pair the 11-50 with a 44t ring or something or bigger using the eagle RD?

Edit: Shimano has a 10-45 12 speed cassette (assuming you had the micro spline freehub) - I'm wondering if etap eagle would work with this using a 44 or 46t chainring.

_______________________________________________
Last edited by: Bonesbrigade: Feb 6, 19 10:16
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Re: SRAM AXS [Bonesbrigade] [ In reply to ]
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Bonesbrigade wrote:
I haven't read through everything, but I'm not seeing the new Etap as having a viable 1x gravel option? The road cassettes don't have sufficient low gears and the mtn cassette is only 10-50, but I doubt you could pair the 11-50 with a 44t ring or something or bigger using the eagle RD?

Edit: Shimano has a 10-45 12 speed cassette (assuming you had the micro spline freehub) - I'm wondering if etap eagle would work with this using a 44 or 46t chainring.

i'll be writing next about 1x. there absolutely IS a viable 1x option with new RED, and in fact you get it by pairing eagle with it. i'll walk you thru this tomorrow. but, basically, it's eagle RD, eagle chain, eagle 10-50 or 11-50, RED AXS road controls, and the chain ring is anywhere from 38 to 50 (in 2 tooth steps) with the 2 largest as direct mount and all the others a 4 bolt spider. you can use either an eagle or a RED crank.

so, yeah, you have an electronic 1x if you want it. the new RED RD has a fluid damper that is lighter, more roadlike, doesn't have or need a cage lockout. i'm seriously thinking of going to this for my gravel bike, because i just don't think the new 2x AXS options get me a low enough gear.

Dan Empfield
aka Slowman
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Re: SRAM AXS [Ron_Burgundy] [ In reply to ]
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Ron_Burgundy wrote:
Shimano is very happy today. I think for gravel this is a good option, otherwise, stay with DI2.

Edit: those brake hoods are so bad. If you have a medium/small hand they are years behind Shimano from a ergonomic perspective.

i agree with half of what you wrote. i've been riding this for both gravel and tri since mid jan, and it's brilliant. full stop.

but, on the ergonomics of SRAM's hydro hoods, i agree. SRAM has had the capacity to do something really revolutionary with road controls and road bars - since it makes both - and i've been bugging SRAM for at least a half-dozen years to do this. shimano and FSA have the same opportunity. somebody is going to take a hard look at this someday. if i had another life, i'd be able to comfortably work the 2 jobs i'm working now. if i had a 3rd extra life, i'd go to work on the front end ergonomics of road and gravel bikes.

Dan Empfield
aka Slowman
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Re: SRAM AXS [Slowman] [ In reply to ]
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Slowman wrote:
Bonesbrigade wrote:
I haven't read through everything, but I'm not seeing the new Etap as having a viable 1x gravel option? The road cassettes don't have sufficient low gears and the mtn cassette is only 10-50, but I doubt you could pair the 11-50 with a 44t ring or something or bigger using the eagle RD?

Edit: Shimano has a 10-45 12 speed cassette (assuming you had the micro spline freehub) - I'm wondering if etap eagle would work with this using a 44 or 46t chainring.


i'll be writing next about 1x. there absolutely IS a viable 1x option with new RED, and in fact you get it by pairing eagle with it. i'll walk you thru this tomorrow. but, basically, it's eagle RD, eagle chain, eagle 10-50 or 11-50, RED AXS road controls, and the chain ring is anywhere from 38 to 50 (in 2 tooth steps) with the 2 largest as direct mount and all the others a 4 bolt spider. you can use either an eagle or a RED crank.

so, yeah, you have an electronic 1x if you want it. the new RED RD has a fluid damper that is lighter, more roadlike, doesn't have or need a cage lockout. i'm seriously thinking of going to this for my gravel bike, because i just don't think the new 2x AXS options get me a low enough gear.

That's what I was suggesting as an option - using Eagle etap components with the road shifter/brakes. BUT, do you think it was designed to hangle using a huge chainring up to 50t? Do they even make chains that long?

_______________________________________________
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Re: SRAM AXS [Slowman] [ In reply to ]
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Slowman wrote:
i agree with half of what you wrote. i've been riding this for both gravel and tri since mid jan, and it's brilliant. full stop.

You're spot on with thinking/wondering about a 43/30 if they are sticking to the 13 tooth difference. Such an OEM gap there right now. If Ben King "only" rides a 44 x 10 as his highest gravel gear, I think most of us could survive on a 43.
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Re: SRAM AXS [Slowman] [ In reply to ]
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eTap v1 has not flowed down Force yet and it's been like what - 3 years?

Next races on the schedule: LA Marathon 2020, Oceanside 2020, Santa Rosa 70.3 2020
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Re: SRAM AXS [Bonesbrigade] [ In reply to ]
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Bonesbrigade wrote:
Slowman wrote:
Bonesbrigade wrote:
I haven't read through everything, but I'm not seeing the new Etap as having a viable 1x gravel option? The road cassettes don't have sufficient low gears and the mtn cassette is only 10-50, but I doubt you could pair the 11-50 with a 44t ring or something or bigger using the eagle RD?

Edit: Shimano has a 10-45 12 speed cassette (assuming you had the micro spline freehub) - I'm wondering if etap eagle would work with this using a 44 or 46t chainring.


i'll be writing next about 1x. there absolutely IS a viable 1x option with new RED, and in fact you get it by pairing eagle with it. i'll walk you thru this tomorrow. but, basically, it's eagle RD, eagle chain, eagle 10-50 or 11-50, RED AXS road controls, and the chain ring is anywhere from 38 to 50 (in 2 tooth steps) with the 2 largest as direct mount and all the others a 4 bolt spider. you can use either an eagle or a RED crank.

so, yeah, you have an electronic 1x if you want it. the new RED RD has a fluid damper that is lighter, more roadlike, doesn't have or need a cage lockout. i'm seriously thinking of going to this for my gravel bike, because i just don't think the new 2x AXS options get me a low enough gear.


That's what I was suggesting as an option - using Eagle etap components with the road shifter/brakes. BUT, do you think it was designed to hangle using a huge chainring up to 50t? Do they even make chains that long?

they have a name for this; they call it the "mullet" config. RED eTap road shifters, eagle chain, RD, cassette. SRAM never speculates on whether something will work, so if they say it will it will.

as to chain size, is this for a tri bike? because, you really want to run a 50t ring with a 10t cog? if it's a tri bike, okay, but remember that a tri bike's chain stays are at least 20mm shorter than a gravel bike's stays, and that's worth a few teeth.

Dan Empfield
aka Slowman
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Re: SRAM AXS [stevej] [ In reply to ]
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stevej wrote:
trentnix wrote:
170 mm shortest crank length on 2x. 165 mm shortest crank length on 1x.


On the quarq website, it only shows 170mm being the shortest available for 1x or 2x.

https://www.quarq.com/...wer-meter-cranksets/

Regardless, not having an option below 170mm on 1x or 2x is disappointing and a step in the wrong direction.
Not sure what their website says but on my order form I do see a 1x crank option of 165 and 167.5. Take that for what it's worth.

Agreed with your point - it is disappointing and a step in the wrong direction.

I'm struggling to articulate a value proposition for triathlon bikes other than 1x, and I think that market is a small market.

Trent Nix
F.I.S.T. Advanced Certified Fitter | Retul Master Certified Fitter (back when those were things)
Last edited by: trentnix: Feb 6, 19 11:16
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Re: SRAM AXS [dangle] [ In reply to ]
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dangle wrote:
Slowman wrote:
i agree with half of what you wrote. i've been riding this for both gravel and tri since mid jan, and it's brilliant. full stop.


You're spot on with thinking/wondering about a 43/30 if they are sticking to the 13 tooth difference. Such an OEM gap there right now. If Ben King "only" rides a 44 x 10 as his highest gravel gear, I think most of us could survive on a 43.

bear in mind a couple things:

1. if we're riding a 700c bike, that 333mm or 336mm wheel radius is now north of 350mm. that right there will move you down a tooth or 2. not until you go to 650b do you get back down inside the 330s in wheel radius, but i don't do that until i've got my 47mm mudders on there.

2. the 1 problem with the 43/30 is the FD tab on frames. basically, if you're not going to use a clamp style FD, bike companies are going to have to go to FD tabs with long vertical slots. which is no problem. but they need to do it.

Dan Empfield
aka Slowman
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Re: SRAM AXS [alex_korr] [ In reply to ]
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alex_korr wrote:
eTap v1 has not flowed down Force yet and it's been like what - 3 years?

i think what's going to flow down is the mechanical stuff. chains, cassettes, direct mount chain rings, cranks, that will all flow down, as will fluid damping RDs. the yaw FD remains. i don't know if that needs to be changed at all.

i think what caught SRAM unawares was the success of 1x. this was a resuscitation of old SRAM tech, on a flyer, and now who's making 2x in MTB? so, eTap comes along, and then all of a sudden a revolution in 1x, they make eagle, and now this new group is: what if eagle and eTap mated and had a baby?

what i think, now, is that SRAM has hit a groove. it sees its future. they're smooshing it altogether now, and they'll get rid of the force clutch RDs and go to this new fluid damper style for all its RDs. it'll be interesting to see whether it even keeps eagle. if you just say that the flat top chain is the common "link" will the eagle

Dan Empfield
aka Slowman
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Re: SRAM AXS [Slowman] [ In reply to ]
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Oh yeah! I think we (collectively) discussed those points in other threads. I had mentioned that a chainring is effectively 4-5% larger for a 40 mm tire compared to a 25 mm tire and a certain Tom. A said I was "over-thinking it." When the guy that runs the website says it, it's suddenly cool!

There's got to be a way we could do fixed tabs better. Or have a high and low mounting point on FD body itself. I have a BMC with fixed tab high enough to run a 58 or so. It's slammed on the bottom of the slot to run a 50 when I have it set up 2x.
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