Lots of good info in this GCN video as well.
I definitely feel like the new 12 speeds on the back is a bit overkill for 2x triathlon setups but I've been drooling over a 10 speed cog on the back for my 1x setup for awhile now. The integrated Quarq with the chain-rings looks super clean as well. Any news on a redesigned blip box or blips for TT?

Edit: Via Aerogeeks

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Benjamin Deal - Professional - Instagram - TriRig - Lodi Cyclery
Deals on Wheels - Results, schedule, videos, sponsors

Retail prices start at 3038 US for 1x with rim brakes and no pm, and go up to 4158 US for 2x disc with pm.

Have fun everyone who can afford it!

Edit: Canyon will sell you an Ultimate CF SLX with 2x without the PM for 7500 (or for 6300 euro in europe)

https://www.canyon.com/en-us/road/ultimate/2019/ultimate-cf-slx-disc-9-0-sl
https://www.canyon.com/en-de/road/ultimate/2019/ultimate-cf-slx-disc-9-0-sl.html

Yeah, eek on those prices.

FORCE ETAP coming in april??
https://cyclingtips.com/...red-etap-axs-review/

i think you should bear in mind this is RED, which has never been cheap. i don't know - i'm going to try to wrangle it out of them - the downstream schedule. but i'd be shocked if this isn't all pretty cheap in 5 years, as it flows down to force, and lower, and comes out in mechanical versions. you could actually hang this on a $6000 and change road bike right now, with the PM, hydraulics, electronics.

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Dan Empfield
aka Slowman

And one of the delightful side-effects of SRAMs push for smaller front rings and rear cassettes is that you wear out the components quicker. If the cassettes cost anything like the Eagle cassettes this isn't so trivial.

Shimano is very happy today. I think for gravel this is a good option, otherwise, stay with DI2.

Edit: those brake hoods are so bad. If you have a medium/small hand they are years behind Shimano from a ergonomic perspective.

The time in which professionals have to ride what amateur cyclists can be convinced to need is apparently running well .. edit: for over sea group sets ..

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*
___/\___/\___/\___ the s u r f b o a r d of the K u r p f a l z is the r o a d b i k e .. oSo >>

170 mm shortest crank length on 2x. 165 mm shortest crank length on 1x.

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Trent Nix
Owned and operated Tri Shop
F.I.S.T. Advanced Certified Fitter | Retul Master Certified Fitter (back when those were things)

i saw your FB comment on pricing below the article. here's some data on that:

2x HRD PM RED
AM RED AXS 2X GROUPSET HRD FM: $2,500.00
AM PM RED AXS D1 DUB 1725 4835: $1,200.00
AM CN RED D1 114LI W/ PWR.LCK 12S 1PC: $70.00
AM CS XG 1290 D1 10-28: $350.00
AM BB DUB ENGLISH 68/73: $38.00

Total: $4,158.00

2x HRD RED
AM RED AXS 2X GROUPSET HRD FM: $2,500.00
AM FC RED D1 DUB 1725 4835: $690.00
AM CN RED D1 114LI W/ PWR.LCK 12S 1PC: $70.00
AM CS XG 1290 D1 10-28: $350.00
AM BB DUB ENGLISH 68/73: $38.00

Total: $3,648.00

so, yes, i think you're right. $800 for the Quarq PM, but $1,200 if you want it into the crank. And you may as well, because i don't think it does you any good without the crank.

but, as i wrote in the article, i don't think this is an aftermarket item. i think where SRAM is going, long term, is that the PM is going to be part of the bike. period. and not just the PM. SRAM is saying with this group that there is no aftermarket. no aftermarket chains, pulleys, bearings, PMs. further, there's no OE downspec. they - and shimano - are trying hard to put FSA, wippermann, KMC, etc., out of the bike business. therefore, rotor, FSA, they're saying fine, we'll just take over the spec of the whole bike.

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Dan Empfield
aka Slowman

I am curious how it would go down to Force without being re-painted Red. Sram is pretty well known for sharing parts between groups. The removable spider version of the Red cranks were just re-painted Force cranks. Same thing for the carbon fiber 8 bolt Quarq (and Red) from the last two years. I couldn't find any exterior difference in construction or weight other than 3 bolts vs. 8 bolts compared to an old Force 1 crank.

Maybe Sram would use a slightly heavier carbon fiber layup in this new crank mold? An alloy cage and less fancy pulley wheels on the rear derailleur? The electronics would have to be mostly the same kind of like the batteries and junctions boxes are all one 'level' in di2. Force has traditionally had carbon fiber brake levers and the internals for this would have to be similar. It's hard to imagine a Force version of this as anything other than less expensive Red. Maybe my lack of imagination is why I don't work in the industry though.

i agree with your premise. but i don't agree with the outcome. i think a lot depends on how much more time you spend in the big ring. that could negate the argument. do you really change your rings a bunch on your MTB? or your 1x?

beyond that, i think the 5 to10 percent difference is how many more times your chain hits a tooth is way more than offset by the quality of the component. of all the things to worry about - and since i first rode this group last month i've tried to think of the things to worry about - this has fallen to the least of my concerns.

if you read what other tech editors around the industry are saying about this group, i think you'll find it's gotten a very good reception. this is by far, far and away, the best shifting system SRAM has made. certainly this is in part a result of mandating the 13-tooth differential between the rings; and no more long RD cages.

to me, the one thing SRAM hasn't yet done is sufficiently reduce the gearing for gravel. you'll either need to move to a smaller set of rings, or a larger cassette range. but each comes with an issue: move to a 40/33 and the frame companies need to come up with a new FD tab system. move to, say, a 10-36, and you need to start putting longer cages on your RDs again.

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Dan Empfield
aka Slowman

On the quarq website, it only shows 170mm being the shortest available for 1x or 2x.

https://www.quarq.com/...wer-meter-cranksets/

Regardless, not having an option below 170mm on 1x or 2x is disappointing and a step in the wrong direction.

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blog

over the years, when i look at 105, ultegra, DA, the only real changes i see are: the prices; the places each are in along the version life; and the materials. steel versus titanium in some cogs. with campy? carbon versus aluminum RD parallelogram? i don't know that one is better than the other but if it is, maybe the cheaper aluminum is better. i don't know. same thing going on with bike frames.

and, of course, as you mention, the paint. no, it's not your lack of imagination. when you buy a cosmetic second, scratch and dent, and you get it home and you can't find the blem, what do you think you bought?

don't ask questions. just take the discount.

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Dan Empfield
aka Slowman

I haven't read through everything, but I'm not seeing the new Etap as having a viable 1x gravel option? The road cassettes don't have sufficient low gears and the mtn cassette is only 10-50, but I doubt you could pair the 11-50 with a 44t ring or something or bigger using the eagle RD?

Edit: Shimano has a 10-45 12 speed cassette (assuming you had the micro spline freehub) - I'm wondering if etap eagle would work with this using a 44 or 46t chainring.

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_______________________________________________

i'll be writing next about 1x. there absolutely IS a viable 1x option with new RED, and in fact you get it by pairing eagle with it. i'll walk you thru this tomorrow. but, basically, it's eagle RD, eagle chain, eagle 10-50 or 11-50, RED AXS road controls, and the chain ring is anywhere from 38 to 50 (in 2 tooth steps) with the 2 largest as direct mount and all the others a 4 bolt spider. you can use either an eagle or a RED crank.

so, yeah, you have an electronic 1x if you want it. the new RED RD has a fluid damper that is lighter, more roadlike, doesn't have or need a cage lockout. i'm seriously thinking of going to this for my gravel bike, because i just don't think the new 2x AXS options get me a low enough gear.

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Dan Empfield
aka Slowman

i agree with half of what you wrote. i've been riding this for both gravel and tri since mid jan, and it's brilliant. full stop.

but, on the ergonomics of SRAM's hydro hoods, i agree. SRAM has had the capacity to do something really revolutionary with road controls and road bars - since it makes both - and i've been bugging SRAM for at least a half-dozen years to do this. shimano and FSA have the same opportunity. somebody is going to take a hard look at this someday. if i had another life, i'd be able to comfortably work the 2 jobs i'm working now. if i had a 3rd extra life, i'd go to work on the front end ergonomics of road and gravel bikes.

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Dan Empfield
aka Slowman

That's what I was suggesting as an option - using Eagle etap components with the road shifter/brakes. BUT, do you think it was designed to hangle using a huge chainring up to 50t? Do they even make chains that long?

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_______________________________________________

You're spot on with thinking/wondering about a 43/30 if they are sticking to the 13 tooth difference. Such an OEM gap there right now. If Ben King "only" rides a 44 x 10 as his highest gravel gear, I think most of us could survive on a 43.

eTap v1 has not flowed down Force yet and it's been like what - 3 years?

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Next races on the schedule: none at the moment

they have a name for this; they call it the "mullet" config. RED eTap road shifters, eagle chain, RD, cassette. SRAM never speculates on whether something will work, so if they say it will it will.

as to chain size, is this for a tri bike? because, you really want to run a 50t ring with a 10t cog? if it's a tri bike, okay, but remember that a tri bike's chain stays are at least 20mm shorter than a gravel bike's stays, and that's worth a few teeth.

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Dan Empfield
aka Slowman

Not sure what their website says but on my order form I do see a 1x crank option of 165 and 167.5. Take that for what it's worth.

Agreed with your point - it is disappointing and a step in the wrong direction.

I'm struggling to articulate a value proposition for triathlon bikes other than 1x, and I think that market is a small market.

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Trent Nix
Owned and operated Tri Shop
F.I.S.T. Advanced Certified Fitter | Retul Master Certified Fitter (back when those were things)

bear in mind a couple things:

1. if we're riding a 700c bike, that 333mm or 336mm wheel radius is now north of 350mm. that right there will move you down a tooth or 2. not until you go to 650b do you get back down inside the 330s in wheel radius, but i don't do that until i've got my 47mm mudders on there.

2. the 1 problem with the 43/30 is the FD tab on frames. basically, if you're not going to use a clamp style FD, bike companies are going to have to go to FD tabs with long vertical slots. which is no problem. but they need to do it.

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Dan Empfield
aka Slowman

i think what's going to flow down is the mechanical stuff. chains, cassettes, direct mount chain rings, cranks, that will all flow down, as will fluid damping RDs. the yaw FD remains. i don't know if that needs to be changed at all.

i think what caught SRAM unawares was the success of 1x. this was a resuscitation of old SRAM tech, on a flyer, and now who's making 2x in MTB? so, eTap comes along, and then all of a sudden a revolution in 1x, they make eagle, and now this new group is: what if eagle and eTap mated and had a baby?

what i think, now, is that SRAM has hit a groove. it sees its future. they're smooshing it altogether now, and they'll get rid of the force clutch RDs and go to this new fluid damper style for all its RDs. it'll be interesting to see whether it even keeps eagle. if you just say that the flat top chain is the common "link" will the eagle

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Dan Empfield
aka Slowman

Oh yeah! I think we (collectively) discussed those points in other threads. I had mentioned that a chainring is effectively 4-5% larger for a 40 mm tire compared to a 25 mm tire and a certain Tom. A said I was "over-thinking it." When the guy that runs the website says it, it's suddenly cool!

There's got to be a way we could do fixed tabs better. Or have a high and low mounting point on FD body itself. I have a BMC with fixed tab high enough to run a 58 or so. It's slammed on the bottom of the slot to run a 50 when I have it set up 2x.

It looks like a cool concept coupled with the 12speed. However it reminds me of a quote I've seen on slowtwich several times. Paraphrasing of course.

"Clipless pedals and STI shifting changed everything. Everything else is window dressing" I'll add electronic shifting and aerobars to that for triathlon.

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I still lapped everyone on the couch!

Wait, WHAT?!?

Wow. Just wow.

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Amateur recreational hobbyist cyclist
https://www.strava.com/athletes/337152
https://vimeo.com/user11846099

Looks like mybikeshop.com has all the new SRAM AXS stuff live on their site now with pricing for individual components.

Welp, they just took me out of the market. Who is looking to off load their D-zero for the new stuff?

well, look, i'm no rhodes scholar, but math is math. my gravel bike's 700c wheel is at least 5 percent bigger than my road bike's wheel and that's with only a 36mm tire. so, that's 2 or more teeth on a CR, no?

you know how we have these long horizontal slots on our tri bike seat posts now? we need long vertical slots on our FD tabs now. simple as that.

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Dan Empfield
aka Slowman

i didn't read what was written in the other review, but i wrote what was written in my review.

what users think: i'll get a pedal based power meter, swap it from bike to bike, it'll work forever.
what actually happens: readers don't put their power pedals on their gravel or MTB bikes, they don't last forever, they're constantly in for new bearings, new battery doors, what have you, and are generally nightmarish.

what users think: a chain ring based SRAM PM is a consumable and won't last 2 years.
what actually happens: the rider will move to a new bike before he wears out this chain ring.

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Dan Empfield
aka Slowman

I'm not sure the issue is with "wearing out chain rings"

ok. what's the issue?

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Dan Empfield
aka Slowman

I don't want to put words in Robert's mouth, but I'd assume that he's despondent about the lack of ability to swap simply chain rings based on use case.

Couple nuggets stood out to my persuasion, these days. The new RD has what looks like a very smart tensioning system without a clutch. It's done in a way that doesn't limit it by use, either road or gravel or whatever. The 10t road cog also makes a pretty big change in how to think about 2x gearing.

Other is *it looks* like while there's not an outright 1x solution there is cross-compatibility with Eagle, ala Di2 and XTR. Maybe SRAM has an outright 1x road/gravel offering in the wings but until then, it finally looks like they have a top level solution on par with Shimano.

the new RD has a fluid damper. it does not have a cage lockout. it can be used in both 1x or 2x solutions. but it's not long cage. my guess, but i don't know, and i've asked, and i'm awaiting a reply, is whether all 1x RDs are moving to a fluid damper and away from the clutch.

you can run eagle and AXS RED eTap. i'll be writing about that tomorrow. further, you can configure anything that's a shifter to run anything that's electronic. derailleur. dropper post. suspension lockout. heated seat. boom box.

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Dan Empfield
aka Slowman

in the narrow context of this PM, i'm not concerned. 12 cogs, 10t cog, there's an awfully wide range gearbox here, yet with a lot of 1 tooth steps. there is no shift system i've ever seen where you're less likely to need to change your gears for a specific race. in general, yes, i see the problem. just, specific to this groupkit, i think SRAM's done a good job of erasing that complaint. i cover the specifics of "X-Range" gearing in one of my articles from today.

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Dan Empfield
aka Slowman

Agreed!

Hopefully they also do a cassette that fits an 11 speed body for compatibility with direct drive trainers and/or older wheels on the more traditional Shimano/Sram splines. I can't remember how much longer after 10-42 11 speed xd that we saw the Sram 1130 series 11-42 cassettes that fit 10 speed cassettes.

Count me in as someone thinking it's crazy integrating the chainrings into the power meter. Bought a Force groupset to put on my gravel bike a couple of years ago and have been wearing out one set of chainrings per year. Granted riding on gravel, and sometimes during winter, wears them out quicker but I don't even ride that much anymore and haven't seen anything like it with other brands. It also seems like they're more sensitive to wear than the Shimano and Campy chainrings I've had before and the chain starts skipping before you can see significant wear on the chainrings. Maybe the new ones are better though..

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BA coaching http://www.bjornandersson.se

they've been working with the relevant direct drive trainer companies, since before the launch. some may be launching their drivers soon, or perhaps did already. SRAM tried to keep a tight lid on this, even tho some of it was on our forum a month or two ago. when i went to park tool's site, they didn't have the ct-3.3 chain tool. i called them up. why? embargoed. so it might be that (some) trainer companies already have them.

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Dan Empfield
aka Slowman

You're right again, CycleOps is already on it. One freehub body. XD without the spacer and XDR with the ~2mm spacer. For a trainer I would think an inexpensive cassette that fit the body on there already would make sense eventually. Thanks for pushing all this info out today and responding to so many posts.

it doesn't happen that often but I'd throw in bending a chain ring into the downside as well.

I'm really excited by this groupset to be honest. eTap was a boon to travel with (very simple to remove and reinstall the RD when packing your bike) and I can see some really novel equipment setups with the inter-operability between Road and MTB. Some of the critiques about equipment life are overblown IMO. In many of the reviews making their rounds on the interwebs SRAM directly addresses this by talking about the materials used and the additional chain wrap on the cassette.

I (finally) see a 1x TT bike in my future.

I haven't seen any commentary on whether or not the entire groups has increased or decreased in weight. Has anyone noted? At 2550g for the road hydraulic 2x set with PM, it sounds around 100g heavier than 9150.

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"No matter how hard you train, Somebody will train harder. No matter how hard you run, Somebody will run harder. No matter how hard you want it, Somebody will want it more, I am Somebody"~ST Post

Dan, you are bike-fitter-in-chief round these parts and whilst I've seen your comments about chain stay length I don't think I've heard your thoughts on these crank lengths?!

Whaddya reckon?

yeah. i think i could too.

a 10x46 is a 120" gear, same as a 50x11
a 33x46 is a 36.5" gear, same as a 39x28

adjust to suit. now, if you wanted the world, here's with an eagle:

a 10x50 is a 131.5" gear, same as a 55x11
a 50x50 is a 26.3" gear, same as a 34x34

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Dan Empfield
aka Slowman

For me it's the chainring selection. On my three bikes I am currently running the following: Roadie - 110 BCD 52/34 Rotor Q-ring, TT - 130 BCD 56/44 Rotor Q-ring, Track - 144 BCD Kappstein 11/128 or Rotor 1/8.

Also the 10t cog does nothing for me but add friction. I would rather have a stock 11-32 x 54/36

That's definitely one disadvantage - after all, it's great that there are three different chainring/cassette combos, and they do seem well thought out, but yes, what if you want to change, whether for a specific use (e.g. a big climb event), a different bike or simply because you get stronger/weaker or have a change in focus, e.g. climbing to sprinting, or vice versa, or whatever else it might be.

Even without that disadvantage, at about 9K miles/year, I tend to replace chains every couple months and chainrings and cassettes annually or so. Yes I could get more miles from them, but we all know that "snickedy snick" (trademark pending) feel from when you're shifting an all-new drivetrain - it's sublime. Spending $410 (+ tax I'm sure) just to change chainrings (for whatever reason) seems like a tough pill to swallow.

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Amateur recreational hobbyist cyclist
https://www.strava.com/athletes/337152
https://vimeo.com/user11846099

SRAM generally does a pretty good job at weights. when you say 9150, is there a hydraulic version you're comparing this to? because i'm pretty sure there's a weight penalty to hydro, esp because in addition to heavier levers you also typically include the rotors in the weight, but you don't include a bicycle's rims in the weight of a rim brake system.

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Dan Empfield
aka Slowman

if you don't make anything shorter than 170, you've disincluded about a third of the triathlon population.

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Dan Empfield
aka Slowman

I'm hoping they expand their cassette portfolio. I'm not sure what the minimum is on Eagle but I think a 48x10-40 would be pretty versatile especially if you spaced it like 3T's "Bailout" cassette with small steps in the middle of the block and larger steps at the extremes. As you alluded to, they probably need to fill out their cassette portfolio if they want to effectively target the gravel market anyways.

For someone like myself that rides different bikes at different times of the year, assuming the 10-40 cassette materializes, I could have one rear derailleur, one set of aero wheels with a 10-40, one set of mtb wheels with a 10-50, two chains, and a single blip box (I've often fantasized about using blips to shift on my mtb, ymmv) and that setup would work furnish me with electronic shifting on a:

-TT bike
-Road bike
-Gravel bike
-Mountain bike

Not a bad deal when you amortize things over a large stable.

One "hack" to for people to think about since the blips are the same, TRP makes a hydraulic brake that incorporates blips into the hood:
https://www.trpcycling.com/...hylex-blip-adapters/

I meant apples to apples comparison: Shimano Dura-ace hydraulic Di2 group set.

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"No matter how hard you train, Somebody will train harder. No matter how hard you run, Somebody will run harder. No matter how hard you want it, Somebody will want it more, I am Somebody"~ST Post

look, i'm no saint. but, when you see the editorial about this group around the web, tech editors were flown in, put up, etc., for a very well done, professional launch. i bought my own airline ticket, rented my own car, and i turned down an ad placement agency's attempt to buy some space from me starting today. just a little too cute for my taste. so i've got absolutely no skin in this. not only am i not getting paid a dime, i paid money i didn't have to pay to go to a launch i didn't have to go to.

in my opinion, SRAM hit this one out of the stadium. i think if you look deeper, you'll find for a number of reasons that your friction concern is neutralized. i'm happy to have that discussion with you all editorially.

having said that, i think there's a bit of a strategic messaging problem here, not just with SRAM, but with the bike companies spec'ing this group. i just got a prompt in my email box about the $12,000 road bike with this groupkit. basically, we're all supposed to sit around and spectate everyone's westminster dog show of $12,000, $15,000, $20,000 bikes built up with this group, and clap politely as hedge fund managers buy these bikes. This is the Shiv disc launch and the P5X launch all over again.

i love this new group. but SRAM needs to contextualize what it's doing, to show us all that this is new tech that of course flows down, and it will flow down, and this is what we can all expect to see in a year, 3 years, 5 years, so yes, you and i are included in this. i want skin in the game. but not somebody buying ads from me. i want the same skin you have: the ability to afford the tech. i'd like to know the tech is coming toward me, not floating 9 miles above me, costwise.

and SRAM and i are going to have a meet, and talk about that, soon, so that i can relay it to you, which i will do on our front page.

so, i'm going to defend the tech, and criticize it when i feel it needs a critique, not based on some sort of affiliate commission or banner ad buy, but because the tech is sound. shimano's tech is also sound. just, SRAM is finally in the same conversation with shimano in 2x groupkits.

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Dan Empfield
aka Slowman

well, i don't know then. one thing i have had a hard time overcoming is what you said: an apples to apples comparison. unless i know all the weights, component by component, it's hard to tell, because, are rotors included? what size? what size chain rings and what cassette? cables? and so on. i'll defer to whatever it is you discover, and am happy to see you post it here.

one component i guess i expect would be heavier with SRAM is the RD, because it's got that fluid damper and doubles as a 1x RD, so, that extra functionality is likely to add some weight, tho i don't know whether it did.

another component that would be heavier is the cassette. 1 more cog.

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Dan Empfield
aka Slowman

one problem with the expanded cassette range is that there's 1 RD, and there's 1 cage size. easier for them to come out with another set of rings, tho as previously mentioned bikes would need to accommodate the lower FD. if they choose to remake the eagle into a fluid damped RD that might be an option. i've asked sram ALL these questions and we have a tentative meeting set up to discuss them.

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Dan Empfield
aka Slowman

Current state of play with quarq
user thinks: chainrings are replaceable so this is a long term purchase
what happens: replace 3 dzero spiders per set of chainrings - it's a good thing quarq CS is so good, even working through distributors

What happens with the new one - suddenly stops working before a race, though it worked in the warmup and battery was fine.

I like everything about quarq except the reliability of the units, which is a fairly major factor.

As for the rest of the AXS stuff, lots of clever ideas but just not interesting to me especially with the horrible hoods.

Good overview article, and I think your forward thinking of the future capabilities of a system like this are unfortunately quite spot on. Why unfortunately? Well, this paragraph (above) caught my eye. Of course you don't have anything (or much) to hide. Heck, most people don't have much to hide.

But if a person ends up for some reason in non-favored category (in the view of the govt, or the watchers, or ? ), then it is another matter altogether. I am sure you are aware that systems that do (or have to capability to) invade privacy to this degree have a historically bad record of, not going after "people that have something to hide", but instead wreaking general mayhem (see: 'facebook') or, worse, going after totally innocent people going about regular life sometimes with dire consequences (again, see: 'facebook').

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Advanced Aero TopTube Storage for Road, Gravel, & Tri...ZeroSlip & Direct-mount, made in the USA.
DarkSpeedWorks.com.....Reviews.....Insta.....Facebook
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as long as disabling the ability of tracking you REALLY disables it, and as long as the default setting is disabled, why do you want to foreclose on functionality that i might want? it's like autopay, brother. if you don't want a bill to automatically be paid, then don't enable autopay. i bet i can find all sorts of sync-backs and auto-syncs in your life. it doesn't keep me up at night that you've chosen to have your workouts uploaded to strava. why don't we focus on the excesses (FB) rather than legitimate tech options?

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Dan Empfield
aka Slowman

By no means was I attempting to discredit, knock, insult, offend, [whichever adjective that you would like to fill in here] you and your efforts. I just don't think I'll be upgrading my old Quarq Riken and/or selling my SRM like I had hoped to, because from the little i've learned about it the new Quarq, it just isn't for me, which I find disappointing. As for the rest of the group, I'd love to upgrade to etap but I'll probably just try to snag 11s blow out stuff as everyone else upgrades.

don't worry. i didn't get the sense you were throwing shade. just, i'm finding myself doing a lot of sticking up for this new groupkit, and i wanted to make clear that i saw it, tasted it, smelled it, rode it, i have a bike in my workshop on which the tri-specific version of this group is hung, and simply based on my own experience i'm writing what i think. certain things i don't know, such as, how long-lasting and trouble-free is the PM? this i can't know.

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Dan Empfield
aka Slowman

I was thinking in the context of 1x specifically. Curious to hear what SRAM says.

Slowman wrote:

just, i'm finding myself doing a lot of sticking up for this new groupkit, and i wanted to make clear that i saw it, tasted it, smelled it, rode it, i have a bike in my workshop on which the tri-specific version of this group is hung, and simply based on my own experience i'm writing what i think.

Slowman in article wrote:

The RD is, according to SRAM, faster, the shifting intervals are more precise.

Dan, what did you think about the speed of shifting? Your review gives a nod to SRAM's claims to faster shifting, but I'm curious what you thought.


The superior shifting speed of Di2 was often touted as a primary advantage of Di2, probably more so for crit/road riders than triathaletes, so I'm curious how much that gap has been narrowed.

---

Amateur recreational hobbyist cyclist
https://www.strava.com/athletes/337152
https://vimeo.com/user11846099

the rear is supposed to be faster, but i couldn't feel it. the front is faster, and i can feel it, but that's mostly (i think) because the new system mandates a strict 13-tooth differential between the rings. it's not the speed of the derailleur that's faster (tho it might be), it's the ring pickup that's faster. in my opinion.

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Dan Empfield
aka Slowman

Any news on a new TT config? Si at GCN says the RD is the controller of the system now, and I seem to remember that that used to be the brifters, necessitating the blip box in a TT config. Has this changed? Can blips (and clics) now just send commands without having to wire them up to a (non-aero) blip box?

Or we just don't know yet?

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Citizen of the world, former drunkard. Resident Traumatic Brain Injury advocate.

there is still a blip box. it's about half the size/volume of the old one. which means i don't think it's fair anymore to embrace the shimano junction box but trash the blip box. they're about the same size now.

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Dan Empfield
aka Slowman

from DCR https://www.dcrainmaker.com/...-the-smart-tech.html

That's the fundamental limiting factor. The snappiest front shifting I've ever personally used isn't eTap or Di2, but a friction-shifted touring triple made in 1990 with 50-40-28 chainrings. Its rings don't have modern pin/ramp profiling, but the system is new enough that it shipped with a "modern"-ish triple front derailleur, and the teeth grab the chain pretty much instantly on upshifts every time.

Smaller jumps can also make the shifting "feel" snappier because the ratio change is less dramatic, so the front shift creates a smaller pedaling disruption. That they require less compensatory rear shifting is also a part of this.

I'm a bit of a SRAM fanboi, but I tend to agree with you on the fully integrated PM.

1) Not just ring wear, but the teeth of a chain ring are very unprotected relative to the spider. Teeth get bent, particularly if you're dropping onto a rock doing some hardcore gravel stuff (aka mountain biking on the wrong bike, which is apparently the cool thing to do now). My last two ring replacements were bent teeth. I've gotten good at bending teeth back, but destroying the resell value on a $120 ring is nothing compared to jacking up an $800 ring.

2) Quarqs, historically, haven't been terribly reliable. I had to send them in on average about once per year. (and customer service is stellar, making up for the reliability) It was nice to just send in the spider, swapping in my stock Force spider. It would suck a bit more to have to send in the entire crankset. Maybe they've fixed the reliability issues on this, though.

I'm not opposed to integration, but there's a headwind on this for me, initially.

Really LOL. I've been there too. Minimal CS required from Quarq for 7 different PM's of two previous generations. Then two D-Zero spiders done in 3 months.

I do wonder if this reduced reliability was a factor in this new move to integrate the spider and rings.

I just recieved an email from BMC about this:
https://www.bmc-switzerland.com/...hine-slr01_disc-ltd/

I was really looking forward to this launch, but it turns out I just don't care about any of it. Why? Price. It is just too expensive. Not just too expensive, but stupid expensive.

Aaah, but is the actual rollout between the 2 setups 5% larger? (I'm assuming you're dropping your pressures appropriately on the larger tire, right?)

When I do my roller testing lately, I adjust the pressures to correspond with the "Berto 15% drop" levels for the load. Since I do all of the tests in the same gearing and at the same cadence, the differences in the roller speed (I measure from the roller itself) for the tests represent the differences in the rollout.

Here's one example:

• 23C Conti GP4000S @ 92psi, roller speed = 39.9 kph
• 42C Challenge Gravel Grinder Race @ 44psi, roller speed = 41.5 kph

So...the larger tire's rollout is effectively (due to running lower pressure) only ~1.5% larger than the smaller one, not 5%...so that's not even a 1 tooth difference in a chainring.

THAT'S why I said he was "overthinking it" ;-)

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http://bikeblather.blogspot.com/

41.5 is 4% bigger than 39.9.

If there was a ‘like button’ I would use it

Oops...you're right. I must've dropped the 1...but, my example was for a wider range of tire size than Dan's 25c to 36c example (where he said there was a 5% difference).

I also happen to have a run with the Challenge 38C Gravel Grinder Race that measures out at more like 36mm wide when mounted (that model runs significantly small). The roller speed on that one was 40.4 kph...so, for Dan's example, it IS going to be <1.5% (1.3%, to be exact).

(Thanks for the correction BTW)

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http://bikeblather.blogspot.com/

After having my Di2 fail after a wire pinch in the middle of nowhere on the G1 version requiring $110 part replacement (shimano did fix that with G2 re replacement pieces)....then watching Heather Wuertele Di2 fail in Kona a few years ago then Jen Annets SRAM fail last year..i have concluded .e-shifting solves a problem that doesnt exist.....for $5000CAN. One mans opinion.

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@rhyspencer

What up Steve?! Hope everything is well.

1x option goes down to 165mm while 2x shortest is 170mm.

For 1x there's even a 167.5mm which we never had. That's what I would ride.

Cheers!

You don't have to be tracked if you don't want to. You can use the app and all the features as a guest without registering your bike or group and no one will know you were there.

I continue to think these bike companies are shooting themselves in the foot with development and pricing strategies. Less people are getting into cycling and the people who have been customers are eventually going to get tired of the continual price increases, non-compatibility issues, and marketing jargon and stop upgrading. They’ll realize they can just be happy riding what they have.

Big screen tv’s, tablets, and computers didn’t end up in every house in America by making incremental advancements while making sporting large jumps in price.

I won’t shed a tear for these companies if/when their sales continue to struggle.

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Matt

Agree-$10k+ even $5k+ for a bike is just insane when you compare it to a motorcycle which is about the same price but has substantially more tech, engineering, materials and construction that a bicycle... they are either hopelessly inefficient or making a killing.

From this article (on the page of a brand you like written by a person you like) https://ride.diamondback.com/...files-1x-drivetrains






Fairly large impact of going smaller than a 14.
I don't view small cogs as increasing the gearing range so much as being spacers to get the useful gears in the optimal alignment range.

And they've completely missed the boat on the relationship between crank length and gearing. Aside from that, I do like the system oriented design to sort out shifting and give a range of gearing options.

Isn't that a big fail Dan ?

Add another gear but don't address the demand for lower gears ?

Do they do any research ?

And the front rings 50 even with a 10 for TTers and triathletes ?

Those custom rings will be pricey !

Will AXS work with the 3T Torno crankset? I was hoping I could get the 3T Torno and Rotor 12 speed cassette which fits on existing 11 speed free hubs. AXS is less attractive to me if I have to get all their bits.

The Rotor cassettes weigh ~150g for the same cost as AXS. 3T Torno weighs 400g with chainring and looks sexier than AXS. The aero version looks nice, but I don't need anything close to 48t for a 1x.

Also, looks like the RD and FD don't have an msrp listed at the moment. Those are the ones I'm really curious about.

Hey Jorge.... good to hear from you!! Hope you are doing well.

Why is 2x limited to 170mm? Why not make 2x down to 165mm just like 1x? And all existing quarqs go down to 162.5mm... why aren't either 1x or 2x offered in 162.5mm?

I'm a big fan of shorter cranks and crank based pm's. Just wish there were more options out there for shorter cranks with pm's built into them.

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blog

No, they won't work - the AXS chain is a different size from anything existing currently so you need an AXS cassette and crank. Eventually I guess there will also be third-party options designed specifically for AXS too.

Can someone give me the Cliff Notes version of all this SRAM AXS hullabaloo?

So far I've got:

• 12-speed
• Quarq chainring PM
• A companion app that you'll probably use once and then forget about
• Cutting out replacement parts and 3rd party compatibility

What am I missing here, what is all the fuss about?!

This is a genuine question because I haven't had time to read through all the articles about it other than the original one that Dan linked to about the AXS app

This is my thought as well. Pricing is reaching the absurd level. If you look at 4K tvs today, even QLED versions, you can get a 55-65" for around $600 - $1200. Bikes and equipment pricing keep going in the opposite direction. I'm probably nuts spending what I spend on bikes and equipment, but this goes above and beyond my tolerance.

I'm on my third set of chainrings with my DZero; purchased the PM at the end of 2016 (so basically as soon as they were available in Europe) and go through 1 set of rings per season. My bank account is indisputably healthier for not having bought three power meters in that time frame.

One thing I've not seen mentioned is how finicky the groupset is with regards to wear. As we all know, you could run old 7/8/9 speed stuff into the ground before you'd notice any appreciable drop in drivetrain performance; with 10 and 11-speed stuff, the tolerances are tighter and a relatively small amount of wear can result in poor drivetrain performance fairly quickly, especially on the first iterations of those groupsets. If that trend continues with 12-speed then you might be replacing your PM a lot more frequently than you think.

Well that's annoying. 3rd parties won't be able to keep up with all these "standards". Which might be the point, I guess. Wolf Tooth makes the Torno chain ring, so I guess there's hope that they could whip up a custom one. I hope there will be a 11t cassette option for our existing 11s hubs

I too will spend absurd money on bike stuff but this new SRAM eTap is far beyond absurd. $3,000-$4,000 for the gruppo. C’mon!

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Favorite Gear: Dimond | Cadex | Desoto Sport | Hoka One One

Apples-to-apples. This is the equivalent of the videophile home theater piece. This isn't a Costco mass-market TV. This is an 8K 4320p 82" . ($15,000). It goes through special calibrations to make sure each pixel is outputting proper color, black levels, and dynamic range. And it's paired to a $8000 Klipsch sound system. And there are special curtains in the room to block out all ambient light, and the sound system is tuned to the geometry of the room with a special app.

What you're looking for is SRAM Rival. That's your $600-$1200 TV. And Rival is fantastic. The odds that it would hold you back in any situation are pretty slim, just like the odds that you'll enjoy a good movie any less with a $1200 TV are pretty slim.

Some of this should trickle down to Rival within 2-4 years, though.

bless your heart! a true forum prototype! this is why i'm writing 6 articles about this, each gauged to today's typical attention span. read 1, go to the forum to discuss the other articles with other folks who haven't read them (but have plenty of strong and true opinions about the articles they didn't read!). ;-)

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Dan Empfield
aka Slowman

Agreed but I also agree with Dan that you will see the roll down benefits. I actually took advantage of this anticipated launch but recently buying up 11s etap stuff at great discounts. They may be further discounted now (I haven’t followed pricing since).

But I paid a total of $375 for a brand new blip box and RD. No FD needed for 1x and not a single wire (or the associated expenses of clics or blips) as I’m shifting from blip box

So, overall I’m very happy I decided to stick with previous version, save money thousands of $$$ and still have 11 speeds. Yes, 11!!!! And 1x set up without a single wire. Can anyone really justify the cost of this new product???

For many (not all) people, this is accurate. The bigger issue to me is that the powermeter integration into the rings discourages changing ring sizes - not because they've worn out, but because you're doing a destination race that warrants different rings. Or you bought the bike thinking you needed X ring size, but once you got around to riding it, you realized that you wanted something else. Or you moved to somewhere with different local terrain than what you were previously accustomed to.

SRAM will cut you a 50% discount if you wear out your rings (putting the price at about the level of non-powermeter Dura Ace rings). But I wonder if they'd extend the same courtesy in any of the situations mentioned above. If so, bravo.

a power meter 20 years ago cost north of $2000. what does it cost you today? a carbon disc wheel cost you $2000 30 years ago. what does it cost you today? what does an 11sp groupkit cost you today? versus when these first came out? what can you buy electronic shifting for today versus when shimano introduced its first Di2 groupkit? i can buy a top quality tire now for $40, but 40 years ago a similar quality race tire cost me double that, and that's dollar-for-dollar, not adjusted for inflation. what does a full carbon monocoque frameset cost you now versus when kestrel first made its bikes 30 years ago?

everywhere along the way, for the past 30 years, people have complained about the cost of new tech. would the people complaining about the cost of kestrels in 1986 wish, today, those kestrels had never been invented? now that you can buy 2 complete bikes for less than a frameset cost you back then?

i can go down the list. you know i'm right. however, the brands today step on themselves through launch after launch that completely omits mention of products that the 19 in 20 of us can afford; or any sense of how this is going to flow down into a product segment priced for us.

but you guys don't do yourselves any favors by crying in your beer over tech that always starts high and flows low. the first power meter didn't cost $400; the first disc wheel didn't cost $800; the first in-lever STI shifter wasn't available on $1000 bicycles.

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Dan Empfield
aka Slowman

i might draw different conclusions from this than you do.

1. this is my main beef with both shimano and SRAM's synchro/sequential shifting. both mandate that i'm in my large ring and second to inside cog before the FD shifts into the small ring. i may be wrong, but i sense this config is friction-ladened, esp on shorter- chainstay bikes like tri bikes.

2. i don't care if i lose a watt or 2 in the 10t, because i'm almost never going to be in that gear. i'd rather have that gear when i need it, almost never use it, and rely on the knowledge that gear is on my bike in order to allow the other cogs to give me the breadth and range i want. the 10t cog is like gay marriage. it sits there, not really affecting anything, you can admire the fact that it's there, or you can be perturbed that it's there, either way you're married to the rest of the cogset.

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Dan Empfield
aka Slowman

I think this stuff looks pretty cool. I think the Bicycle market has about priced itself out of the market. Prices on bikes and components have gotten out of hand and yes I can afford it and when I start thinking man this is crazy its bad

i don't get it. can you explain this? because, there must be something i'm just not getting, as 3 of you have just said the same thing. what are you writing about that i'm not seeing? tell me where my blind spot is.

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Dan Empfield
aka Slowman

You were under-thinking it. :-)

Exactly...in that case though, the 42C Challenge GGRs measure a whopping 44mm across installed. And at that width, I'd be switching down to a 650B wheel/tire combo to fit the bike...at which point the rollout comes back into line with the 23C road bike tire on 700C ;-)

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http://bikeblather.blogspot.com/

I think this got botched in the press release but it appears that the 1x pms are still spider based up to 42t (...or 46t? I forget). Check out SRAMs website. I'm not a fan of integrated the chainring and PM either.

except its not just the 10 where you will be losing a watt or two. you would be using less efficient cogs(<14) more frequently, esp low rpm triathletes

When I look at this vs an existing 2x11 eTap setup, I see a whole bunch of new, but most of what I see that is new doesn't present itself as functionally better, just different. To me, the newness doesn't reflect 1.500 euro or whatever the delta is in actual value, it's mostly just stuff wrapped up a little differently.

Where'd you find that deal?!

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Twitter - Instagram

This whole group is kind of a hard no for me. I don't like the gearing, i don't like the crank lengths, i don't like the incompatibility with other manufacturers. Just don't see any upsides when compared to ultegra di2

your problem is with sram's (and other companies that do this) lack of "contextualization," no? that they don't tell us this when they launch a new product - this tech will flow down - so as to establish a timeline.

but...what you're doing here is feeding that machine. the articles on the front page. the forum posts.

which i get. you have to sell ads. that's just math. and this is getting a lot of looks.

but a lot of looks are like mine where i look at this new group and just think: "no fucking way. it's way too expensive."

it's off putting, honestly. bikes don't have to be draped with $3500 groupsets, and the average customer who reads about bikes before coming in will likely get served ads and articles that cater to this type of impression. maybe they never come in to a real bike shop because they assume "real" bikes are gonna cost as much as their car.

i think there's a massive disconnect between the manufacturer and 98% of the consumers.

ETA -

Furthermore, to worse the issue with "contextualization" of their product lineup, SRAM chooses to develop an entirely new eTap before going "Force [OG] eTap." Or something like that. So it just worsens the "contextualization" issue. It'd be like if Cervelo completely redesigned the P5x before coming out with a P3x. It wouldn't go well with consumers.

maybe. it depends on the efficiency of the system itself. if we're talking fractions of a watt, and one system is just more efficient than another, i think this whole theme gets swallowed up and becomes more political than technical. nevertheless, we were all tech editors in a room, and i raised my hand and said, "i promise you my readers are going to zero in on friction associated with a decrease on cog tooth size; you'd better have answers at the ready, or my folks won't get past this."

i spoke afterward to the road product manager, and i told him to get all his facts and data prepared for this, because i knew it was coming. i'll report to you what he has to say.

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Dan Empfield
aka Slowman

so far what I have seen is basically a lot of hand waving as to why it is not an issue, and it may not be for a lot of folks, but for the ones trying to gain every last aero and drivetrain watt, it does not seem to be the right direction. folks like Grill will intentionally go to extra large front rings to gain efficiency

i am with you, not on sram now and definitely not with this, at this point. but i also don't get 10k road bikes, for folks that race, ie one heck of an expensive crash potentially

i don't like to be "that guy" who's touting his ethics. but i preemptively wrote, some posts up, about my financial approach to this, to hopefully head off the posts that, decoded, impugn my ethics, which is what you just did. so, can you go read that post? and then we can continue the conversation?


i have a 6 year old campy chorus groupset on my road bike, and it works perfectly. the existence of this new groupset does not affect the quality or enjoyment of my ride. what you're basically saying here is that you've got groupset envy; that cycling for you is just not fun unless you have the latest groupset. that the mere existence of this groupset made your current bike less fun to ride.

while that's unfortunate, i do think brands need to give those stricken with halo envy hope for trickle down. but they don't, because they don't want to cannibalize their current halo product sales. i don't think that's a rational fear. more urgent is what you and others are writing, that there's just this product that seems out of reach. SRAM has not articulated its price migration pathway for this tech. nor does cervelo do that, nor specialized nor most brands. they just stick these $15,000 bikes out there and say, "look at this product you can't afford!"

so, i've asked SRAM for an interview, and i gave them the questions in advance, and this is among them. this issue you raise. having said that, here is an $1,800 gravel bike from trek that i would be very happy aboard. the logical implication of your post is that you want new tech to immediately flow to this price point. that's just not realistic. were it not for a lot of halo product you wouldn't now have this trek. i think a nice middle ground is for you to understand that new tech has a top-down price flow; and that companies should state if and when and how that flow will happen, to keep faith with you and me.

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Dan Empfield
aka Slowman

Is only limited in order to get sku #'s down. As you can imagine, there's A LOT of sku's with this new group when you account for eight 1x size chainrings (power and non-power), three 2x combos (power and non-power), six different crank lengths, etc.

Most road enthusiasts don't care for anything less than 172.5, 170 is pushing it. Therefore, the market for a 2x system with less than 170mm cranks becomes very unappealing.

Same goes for offering 162.5mm cranks, we found there's not really a big demand for that size that can justify the development cost when so many other moving parts are being develop.

I agree with you, integrated power meter is the way to go. The integrated power meters provides more accuracy and are by far lighter weight. Removing the weakest link which is the spider and creating a one piece chainring with integrated power, opened the door to newer opportunities that haven't been explored before.

That being said, if you still in FL, I see no use for a 2x system, I would be on a 1x with 11-26 cassette for both road or TT bike. I can't remember ever being on the small ring back then when we raced together.

Hope you're still killing it out there!

I think it boils down to that there is marginal benefit (if any) to "upgrading" to this AXS groupset compared to e-tap or di2. And people aren't willing to spend $$$$ for no real benefit other than wanting something new and shiny. Even for someone who's still running mechanical, why would they spend the money on AXS when they could source e-tap or di2 for cheaper? There's no major advancement in tech with the AXS groupset compared to the current groupsets we have now to justify the cost of replacing their current groupset. If this was the first electronic groupset to ever be released, that's a big advancement in tech. But this isn't that....

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blog

no, i didn't. you say you've got a bike with this groupset in your garage right now, no? did you pay retail for that bike? any judgement you (or anybody in your shoes) make on it is biased due to the CONTEXT of your review. it's impossible to be objective. even if you've forked over msrp it's still IMPOSSIBLE to be objective, because you will - almost certainly - talk yourself into the product. it's inevitable. it's human nature.

it's not really a question of ethics. you make money by people coming to this site. i enjoy slowtwitch immensely and i am glad it exists. i do not run any adblock software/plugins because i know that my eyeballs matter to the bottom line. you are in the position you are in because you command a certain number of monthly page visits. you have a certain "type" of reader/customer. i don't think i'm maligning you or slowtwitch by saying any of those things i've said, it's the nature of a business.

you are an influencer. you...matter. most of us only matter because we create the platform for you to matter. you have a chance to actually affect the direction companies take with their products. do THAT, a lot. which it seems like you do and will do.

i was talking with someone the other day and the topic was something bike related. it's vague in my memory because i've talked to a LOT of different and new people this week, but it revolved around the idea that whoever was designing the product had absolutely no fucking idea how the product was actually going to be used in everyday life. it's not a new thing, that idea. but from the design engineer -> support tech -> inside sales rep -> outside sales rep -> retail store manager -> retail store mechanic -> retail store salesperson -> customer is a frigging long ass chain of hierarchy and use case.

i'm going tangential to the OT, but i think products like this just galvanize my whine button to be pressed. it's just like: "what are these companies thinking?" i'd like to know more about that.

do you work for sram?



man, this just seems like a massive, overarching miss.

I can’t disagree with you there even if I’m personally intrigued by AXS. Integrated Di2 has superior battery life and damn good shifting plus things like chains, chainrings, power meters, cranks, etc are widely available and comparatively inexpensive.

An interesting wrinkle in all of this is that Shimano’s XTR factory recently caught fire and supposedly this will delay their 12 Speed group giving SRAM even more time to capture that market.

I'm SRAM "fanboi" as well and have been for years. I even dressed a sram force group up to look like MicroShift when I "had to use" that on JB. Total brick wall for me on the new PM, but the rest of the group, is still cool to me. I would love to have it but its a want and not a need. Then again I don't really want or need the 10T cog so I'll be happy if I can get my hands on the 11s etap for now.

The best thing about SRAM is 1 the weight and 2 the warranties. I accept everything breaks, and there has been a little down time with each warranty but I've gotten a new front shifter and new medium cage rd recently for about $15, with the help of the LBS.

Yep, this is pretty much my take on the new AXS group after digesting a lot of content over the last 24 hours. I was a first year adopter on Etap - I got a great deal so it really wasn't too expensive. I'm just not seeing any real performance benefit from my 2x11 etap to the 2x12 AXS. The price tag is just bananas to boot! My only complaint with my current 2x11 etap is the FD battery doesn't clear larger tires and AXS doesn't even seem to address that!

I'm curious to see how this new system sells. I'm going to bet it doesn't have nearly the success of the 11sp system at this price point - particularity with no performance improvement that I can see.

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bro, i didn't pay anything for that bike. but i'm not keeping it. it's a very nice parlee, that is going right back to SRAM, probably at my expense to ship it. however, i did pay for that 6yo campy chorus groupset on my everyday rider. full retail. i like that group too. campy advertises elsewhere.

you're trying very hard to find out what consideration was given me for writing positive things about this AXS groupset. i turned down the ad buy. i paid my own flight to the launch. i paid my own rental car. it was 3 days i'd rather have spent here at the office earning money. it cost me a lot of money to write what i'm writing about SRAM. you're right, ads pay for this site. but not SRAM ads. i'd make every bit the same money if i wrote that i didn't like the groupset. sorry to disappoint.

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Dan Empfield
aka Slowman

dan i think you're missing my point.

i don't think any consideration was given to you for writing anything about SRAM AXS. i think they hoped you would like it because they thought it was a well designed group, and that's it. beyond that i couldn't care less.

but you did write an article on it. and that article (but also the forum thread) is creating page views. those page views in and of themself are a consideration. not a direct one, sure. but if that article and this thread didn't exist, you'd have fewer eyeballs to sell (not to SRAM, as you say).

i think you think that i'm faulting you for that. i'm not.

i am faulting sram for putting the cart before the horse. i think this group is well thought out, but is problematic in a few ways. number 1 being its place within sram's product timeline.

no, i think i got your point loud and clear, and was reinforced when you asked me whether i paid full retail for the bike in my garage. i think we all got it loud and clear. and if i totally panned the groupset i'd get MORE eyeballs and attaboys than if i wrote that i liked it.

my crystal ball: what will happen is that this group will push SRAM forward, it will become a part of a successful narrative, and it will bridge and tie SRAM's 1x product family with its 2x family. if you don't see that, then it's my failure in not writing about this group properly. (tho i think it will become more clear when i write the 1x article.)

all that said, i've already noted that this new component family is incomplete. there are important crankset lengths missing (for us); and there is important low gearing missing (for everyone). the low gear thing is interesting, because solving this either at the chain ring or at the cogset has implications on frame design (if at the chain ring) or in the length of the derailleur cage. i've no doubt SRAM will get to this, and this new groupset finally provides an attractive pathway for catering to the gearing needs of road weekenders and gravel riders.

and of course there are important price categories not yet addressed and i don't mean not yet available, but not even addressed. and this is a general fault of the bike industry.

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Dan Empfield
aka Slowman

The only significant change I could see from upgrading my existing 11 speed etap to this group would be the hole in my wallet. It is neat, but the price is nuts. I am totally and completely disinterested.

i would definitely agree that OG eTap kind of put SRAM back in consumer minds when they were thinking about new, premium, road groupsets. in theory, this group can/will do same.

they've slayed the MTB world for years now, and for a (relatively) small company what they've done vs. Shimano is quite impressive.

I think this groupset really is a big advancement and I think the price is reasonable. I get that people would rather pay for Ultegra Di2 and for an upcoming Force eTap, but I don't think the current price detracts from this group, and I think it's ground breaking.

First up, look at the crankset. The mtb DUB system is as light as a THM M3 crank. So, we can assume the DUB road Red crank will also be in the ~300g range.... Well, that puts a 1x DUB Red crank sans quarq $570 cheaper than a 3T Torno. Add a Quarq pm and the DUB Red is still $60 cheaper. That said, I'm still the a-hole who'd opt for the Torno and a Powertap G4 hub...

Next, the 12s cassette with 10t rear cog. I mean, us 1x folks have been wanting this for so long. This alone make this group worth the praise. I can't wait to chuck my Force 1x RD and its clunky shifting, but I've been grateful for its clutch - even with dws sends me straight into a log in the middle of the road with no warning, there was no dropped chain.

Last, break down the price of AXS Red side by side with DA Di2 and I'm not seeing a huge discrepancy. Yeah, these top groups are expensive, but it appears to me that the AXS Red is actually slightly less than DA Di2 and that DA Di2 msrp has been pretty consistent for the past seven years. Why the outrage now?

oh, and that eTap dropper post. oh man that's definitely worth $1.2k..... ha

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wovebike.com | Wove on instagram

I don't mind spending some money on upgrades, in fact my bike's heading to the shop next week to have an alpha-one bar, QXL rings, and a premier bike chain installed. After debating it for a while I also decided to switch the 105 mechanical for ultegra di2 at the same time.

Initially when seeing the AXS content I wondered if I should consider skipping the di2... The fact it was more than double the price helped, but the real nail in the coffin was the lack of compatibly with non-SRAM parts. I want to use oval rings, I like my optimized chains, heck I run a sram cassette because I want a 16T in back.

Honestly I don't want to pay such a premium to be confined.

I agree with most of what you say, here. A quick look at what Dura Ace Di2 costs makes the pricing outrage seem off base. Yes, Red AXS is more than 11s eTap. But that product kind of had to straddle the line between DA Di2 and Ultegra Di2. This time, it appears a Force version is already in the pipeline. Red AXS can stay a pure premium product, while value-seekers can buy 11S eTap on closeout, or wait for Force AXS.

But it's not quite ready for road 1x primetime, yet. IMHO. Yeah, you can piece together a nice TT 1x setup. And, here in the flatlands, I could probably get away with a 40T or 42T Chainring and that 10-33T cassette. Put me anywhere with climbs and descents, though, and that's not enough range. The next step up is a 10-50 cassette.....along with an Eagle AXS rear derailleur. There's a gaping hole, there. Maybe it gets filled with the launch of Force AXS?

Also, as someone with two BB86 frames, I'm not thrilled about the abandonment of GXP for DUB.

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"They're made of latex, not nitroglycerin"

I think I read all the articles and posts to this thread, but didn't see this question - if AXS has sequential shifting, will it become available with etap?

note: you can run DUB and BB30 in a BB86 bottom bracket, no problem. Only BB90/92 cannot be run with DUB and BB30.

For Tri, the 10-33 paired with a 44t chainring will do the trick. But, for road riding, I'd definitely prefer 44 x 10-36

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wovebike.com | Wove on instagram

QXL rings? Well in that case, the AXS crankset is not for you.

I think that in fairness to Dan and SRAM, there is a lot of really cool stuff in Red AXS, 12 speed, gearing ranges, innovative RD chain retention, 12 speed chain that is alleged to be quieter and better shifting than 11 speed...

If SRAM has really closed the gap in shifting speed, then I think my only two objections would be the chainring/PM limitations and price. The latter will come down I'm sure and if there is a workaround for the former...

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Amateur recreational hobbyist cyclist
https://www.strava.com/athletes/337152
https://vimeo.com/user11846099

The problem is, they don't sell many 8K TVs right now in part because there isn't the content to support it and very few folks will shell out that kind of money for that. Even 4K is lacking in content, but the cost to buy a 4K is practically the same as just HD. This from a market that includes as close to 100% of the population as you can really get. There are folks that will spend 50K on a watch or $3M on a car, but they don't sell many of these. These types of products have one simple purpose. To give people with more money than they can ever spend, something to spend it on.

When it comes to bikes, and especially high end racing bikes, the market just isn't big enough to support such extravagant ridiculous group sets. They are pricing themselves out of the market. They would be better off making improvements to the current offering and working on ways to lower the prices to sell more units and make more of a profit. Maybe i'm wrong, but I just don't see them selling many of these.

True, you can run DUB in a BB86 shell. But the bearing size required to fit that large a spindle in that diameter shell is sub-optimal.

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"They're made of latex, not nitroglycerin"

I forget where I read it, but I believe SRAM has no intention of making any firmware updates with etap (so no).

I think this is an interesting comparison. 20 years ago who were the players in the powermeter game? Mostly SRM I presume. And they are still very expensive - I’m guessing similar to what they were in 1999. No trickledown. Prices have just now started to decrease by major players (powertap, quarq, Garmin) since there are so many inexpensive options available (power2max, assioma, stages) that they’ve likely started to feel the squeeze of pricing themselves out of the market.

As for discs. My history isn’t as good as yours, but I’m guessing Zipp was one of the original players. Not sure what they were running back in 1988, but everything they offer now is north of 2000. You can get cheaper discs from other brands, of course.

So what this tells me is sram is going to continue to be a halo product and we’ve gotta wait for a different company to join the party and either squeeze sram (and/or Shimano prices down) or just offer a 95% as good alternative at a much lower price

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Matt

Now that I know that Force AXS is coming at Sea Otter my rancor is dampened.

Probably.

Ok, I did more digging on this and a German Sram rep confirmed the “mullet” setup has a 38t max chainring size as I suspected. Sooo, you may wanna double check with your Sram contact before advocating this. The source I found could have been wrong too, but I suspect you can’t use large rings with a 10-50.

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_______________________________________________

I'm trying to comprehend why a larger chainwheel wouldn't work, and failing....othe than there maybe not being enough chain links on a bike with longer chain stays, a situation which can be remedied fairly easily.

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"They're made of latex, not nitroglycerin"

let me add some historical perspective. power meters. yes. you're about right. i think the SRM has probably come down maybe $500. but let's just say that it's the same, for grins. the dollar today is worth about half as much as it was 20 years ago. and, SRM is the only company - the ONLY company - in the power meter world that hasn't come down more than, say, 15 or so percent. another PM that was around 20 years ago was powertap's hub, and that's probably a third less than it was then, which means in real dollars it's come down by two-thirds.

zipp was probably 5th or 6th at best. the first one i knew of was aerosports. $2000 in 1985 as i remember. this was a 4- or 5-person partnership, between gary hooker and dave spangler (hooker header partners), chet kyle, scott and vickie gordon, and maybe the french guy who made the original tri spoke carbon wheel, rene (last name escapes me). imagine what $2000 in 1985 was in buying power back then.

i just don't think there is any history - any history - that supports your theory. you can argue this all the way down and it's just going to be a loser debate. where do you think veloce, 105, rival come from if you don't think it's record, DA and RED?

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Dan Empfield
aka Slowman

i'll check.

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Dan Empfield
aka Slowman

interested in seeing this 1x article.

a 50 x 11-50 is equivalent to a 55x11 and 34x34. My guess is that most people would opt for tighter spacing over that astronomical gear range.

I really liked Rotor's 1x13 gearing chart: http://rotorbike.com/...18/07/ROTOR-1x13.pdf


a 46 x 10-39 would be a bit easier than 34x28 and a bit harder than 50x11 with reasonable gear spacing.

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wovebike.com | Wove on instagram

All I’m saying is just a few years ago u cos get the top of the line bike for $ 4500-5000 . Now you get a top of line trek and it’s $13,000 for a bicycle . I love bicycles i usually buy a new one every year yes I’m spoiled . All I’m saying is when u can buy a Honda motorcycle cheaper there is a problem . It’s just got to the point where it’s a huge purchase and i question when will it end .

$1 from 20 years ago is worth $1.46 today based on actual inflation.

Exactly. The price creep even taking into account inflation and everything else is absurd.

Think of all the parts, engineering, electronics, research, crash testing etc required to design and manufacture a car compared to a bike and the costs just don't add up.

Price creep is when like-for-like products become gradually more expensive.

What we're seeing here is simply the top-end getting higher. The costs are obscene because you've scraped all the way through the bottom of the diminishing returns barrel and are chipping away at the concrete floor the barrel is sitting on.

You can still get a $5000 bike, and it's in some ways better than a $3,300 bike was in 1999.

Remember, Rotor said they were going to offer 12 speed cassettes with the same gears sans the 10T small cog.....and that they'd fit on a standard HG freehub. Curious to know if the Rotor cog spacing will be the same as SRAM.

And, for 1x, you really don't need the SRAM 12s chainrings. The current crop of 10/11S 1x chain wheels will work. Alas, they're not selling the Eagle ASX RD's stand-alone, yet. That would make it too easy (cheap) for folks with Eagle mechanical to upgrade, I guess. So, for now, on a road application, we're stuck with a 33T largest rear cog.

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"They're made of latex, not nitroglycerin"

I'm hoping for this as well!

Are individual component weights listed anywhere? And pricing for the RD and new blip box?

$1350 for a RD, blip box, two Clicks, and two Blips

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"They're made of latex, not nitroglycerin"

yes, there are $13,000 bicycles. because a bicycle exits that costs as much as a motorcycle, you're mad at cycling. but you're aware that there are motorcycles that cost a quarter mil, right? that's obscene! therefore no motorcycles for you! there's also cars that costs as much as mansions. no cars!

looks like you're going to be walking. barefoot. because, have you seen what top of the line shoes cost!

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Dan Empfield
aka Slowman

So we should be praising SRAM now when they should have given you that gear/gain ratio back when 1x was first introduced? Now it just costs you a shit ton of money to get you what you should have already had.

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blog

I agree it's a risk.

And I agree that SRAM has been inconsistent. They introduced eTap at the high end and haven't trickled it down. Then they introduced mechanical 1x at the lower end (Rival/Force) and failed to trickle it up.

The safe, natural progression would have been for us to be seeing Force eTap and Red 1x about now. Instead of doing the safe thing, they must mashed their finger on the reset button and changed the whole game. I think history will look at all the individual innovations kindly. The freehub, smaller direct-mount rings, etc. But I agree this first iteration may not take off like wildfire. I'm a six-figure income guy with no kids, and bikes being my one vice. And I'm not touching this stuff anytime soon.

But SRAM is playing the long game. Which is smart. I bet in 10 years most of this stuff will be fully mainstream and on Rival-level kit.

Thanks! So $2500 with batteries, charger, crankset, cassette, and XDR conversions for a 1x. Ouch. I'm starting to think Rotor 1x13 may come out cheaper.

The 10-42 XG-1180 cassette was introduced with Force/Rival 1X over four years ago . Though either through lackluster options (one cassette explicitly branded for road) or poor marketing the XD driver never caught on very much for 1x road.

Now they're gonna ram the new freehub body down our throats, for better or worse.

Valid point. None of need this set up to cycle any more than we need a $250k motorcycle, but this product will find its way into many more new bikes that we are looking to buy and is being marketed much harder to the average Slowtwitching cyclist than a $250k motorcycle would be. We are the target audience and we are screaming enough is enough on pricing. We want this product and will pay a premium for it, but at some point—and this is clearly it at least for me—the scales tip too far. I wonder if people will actually (not) put their money where their mouth is. I’m appreciate the trickle down effect and recently took advantage of it. But I won’t be upgrading to this anytime soon.

I believe 30 years ago, HED disc wheels were about $350 or $400 for their standard weight disc wheel, and their ultralight version, which was maybe 100 grams light was another $100 more. Zipp discs in the late 1980s to early 1990s were all sub $1000, the 950 (Model name equal to wheel weight) and 1150 (cheaper and heavier wheel). I remember the Zipp reps used to put the 1150 on the ground and stand on them to show their ‘durability’. As to the earliest, custom made, low volume produced discs, I’m sure they were more, but I don’t think that’s a good comparison. The Campy Ghiblis were pricey when they came out (well over $1000) and so were the Accel Falcons, which were supposedly sub 800 grams. The J Disc, heavily used by sponsored athletes Pigg and Riccitello could be had for under $300. Anyway, lots of competition came pretty quickly in the late 80s / early 90s and prices were competitive.

Zipps Super 9 Carbon Clincher retails today for $2731, which is, adjusted for inflation, not cheaper at all than their wheels 30 years ago. As their top of the line wheel was sub $1000 in 1989. Inflation is roughly 100% over the last 30 years, so a $750 wheel should be selling for $1500 to be price equal. There are lots of cheaper disc wheel options today, inflation adjusted, but there are clearly some that are more, such as the Zipp. I currently own Zipp products, HED products, Shimano, and SRAM (including etap), and don’t have a dog in the SRAM pricing discussion, as I imagine they have done market research to price it the highest they can, and still sell the volume of units they wish to sell.

Sorry I did not read everything, but I always thought that big/big is faster than small/small
(e.g. 53/11 is faster than 48/10),
because the chain bends less.
For the same reasons, big pulleywheels are considered faster, but I still haven‘t seen them with XRAM, Shimano or Campagnolo. The pulleywheels in AXS seem also conventionally small.
Seems all strange to me.

I think many of us will agree that we'd prefer to keep our hubs and start at 11t. Fingers crossed we'll get that. Other upside would be that more of us could size up to the aero 48t chain ring.

There's always Campy 12sp cassettes that start at 11t - but that would require a freehub change - although I'm not sure if the Campy spacing is the same as the new Sram 12sp. Most people got 11sp campy/shimano/sram cassettes and RDs to be compatible, as the spacing was so close it "worked". (10sp campy and sram/shimano however is not compatible at all). I suspect the 12sp spacing between Campy and Sram will be even closer, so in all likelihood will "work" fine, but I guess we wont know for sure until someone tries it.

Either way, with Campy and Sram road now at 12sp, Shimano and the likes of Rotor will surely follow suit, so give it a year-18months and you'll likely have a plethora of 12sp cassettes to chose from...

I for one, as someone who is a fan of 1x for Tri/TT, am very excited for an AXS 1x set up (when I can afford it, haha!). 50 x 10-33 has me covered for anything I'll ever need. More aero, lighter, clutch (dampened) RD, bigger gear range, more 1t steps... what's not to love?

Also, I can't really see a reason why the current range of 1x NW chain rings would not be compatible with the 12sp chain (other than Sram saying its not, but in the past they've said a lot of their components are not compatible and I've got them to work absolutely fine). E.g. there are a LOT of third party aftermarket manufactures of MTB 1x chain rings that work absolutely perfectly with the SRAM Eagle 12sp, eg Wolftooth.

So potentially I wouldn't even need to change my current crank/PM, just slap on a new NW chainring on there and go. That said, that new AXS 1x Quarq PM with Aero Chainring looks super sexy. I might not be able to resist it :)

Any one have an idea whether the new BlipBox will fit inside the P5 Aduro base bar?

(Please, please, please let it be able to...)

But that's unacceptable to the bike industry who already wants you to buy new wheels for the disc brakes. Now you have TWO reasons to buy new wheels or hubs.

But the thing is that a majority of the swap parts will not profit SRAM. I'd have to go to DT Swiss and CycleOps for mine.

Not replying to you but just in general. Two local pros told me the PM doesn't read cadence correclty. They have been using this under NDA since december. There is another 12x groupo that the EF boys have raved about though. Not Campy either

Actually i will still be driving nice cars and have nice homes and have nice thing s that cost a lot . I’m not hating on bicycles i have been riding 10,000 miles a year for a long time. I love it , it’s my passion . I just know when i walk in a bike shop and the price tag on a bicycle is as much as some Harley’s , Honda’s, Ducati . It just makes me take a step back and really make a decision on is it worth it. Not hating just the reality

okay. but then you see a harley that cost more than your house and the two on either side of it, does that make you dislike all motorcycles? does the fact that only a tiny fraction of sold harleys are in that price point sour your taste for all harleys? and suzukis and ducattis too?

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Dan Empfield
aka Slowman

So, about the objection to AXS based on its exorbitant price...

Cannondale SystemSix with Dura-Ace Di2: $11,500

Cannondale SystemSix with Red eTap AXS: $10,000

So the AXS bike is $1,500 less than the Di2 bike.

Moreover, Shimano has had significant issues delivering certain components after their factory fire. I have had my DA Di2 SystemSix ordered since July 6, 2018 and STILL don't have it. Yes, if you are doing the math at home, that's 7 months and counting.

Meanwhile, the same LBS that has my DA Di2 SystemSix on order just posted photos of the AXS bike, which they already have in their shop.

---

Amateur recreational hobbyist cyclist
https://www.strava.com/athletes/337152
https://vimeo.com/user11846099

i first met steve hed in 1986 i think. i remember his first disc as $700. no cheaper. but maybe your memory is sharper than mine.

i don't think your zipp argument is pertinent here. i'm saying that halo products eventually flow down to commodity pricing, if you're patient. that happened with every tech you ride. you're arguing that no, that's not true, and as evidence you're supplying from today... another halo product!

no, today's zipp $2731 wheel is not evidence. that wheel, somebody's going to make it 5 years from now for half that price. i'm not saying zipp's halo product in 5 years is going to half what it costs now. there will always be a halo product out there. shimano will make a halo product. but in 7 years that basic tech will have flowed down to another shimano product line half that price, or cheaper.

we keep having this argument here. there's just a cohort of folks who're offended by halo products. this happens with every launch. it's the gay marriage problem, rebadged. the very existence of something happening 2 blocks over somehow makes your marriage less satisfying. i just don't understand that mindset.

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Dan Empfield
aka Slowman

There are a few big differences here. Those 250K Harlys are showpieces. They are often not much better than something significantly less but are hit up with expensive lavish extras to make it exclusive. Same could be said for Bougattis etc. Just where do you plan to drive one of those where you can safely use it? There is simply nothing practical about them, nor will anything about them trickle down to vehicles affordable by those making less than 5M a year.

When it comes to bikes, anyone even just putzing around, can benefit from a top end bike. One could even argue, that all things being equal, you will be at a disadvantage if you don't use a top end bike.

With that being said top end bikes have always been expensive, but the point many are trying to make is they are now approaching the point of stupid ludicrously expensive such that they are in the realm of a 250K Harley. Even though many here could afford a 250K Harley, it's just a ludicrous amount of money that it's not even a consideration.

To be perfectly honest, at 4K to 5K for a groupset, I don't even care what it offers. It's an absurd price point and I'm not even going to consider it. If SRAM wants to continue alienating their customer base, then by all means continue on this path.

With all of the emotion that this product launch has stirred up, this seems like a great topic for the next Slowtwitch poll.

This just in:
Frodo posted a new bike day picture on Insta of just the front of his drivetrain. Looks like he's racing with AXS 1X and the aero chain ring. Obviously there is sponsor money there but you have to imagine he wouldn't swap if he thought it wasn't right for Triathlon.

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Benjamin Deal - Professional - Instagram - TriRig - Lodi Cyclery
Deals on Wheels - Results, schedule, videos, sponsors

It's very possible the 1986 HED disc was $700, but within a few years their standard lenticular disc was sub $500. I bought a couple of those at that time. One at full retail and then one because of a crash replacement. They had, from memory, a $150 crash replacement policy on that wheel... amazing company.

Uhhh what?? He’s paid to use a product. Of course he’s going to switch to AXS. He’s not paid to think about everyone else and what’s best for the masses.

I’d be running AXS too if I was paid for it.

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blog

But he didn't have to go to AXS 1X, and I'm sure if he had any fundamental issues with the gearing and/or 12 speed functionality he could just stick with the traditional etap. He's not going to voluntarily gimp his bike splits in any significant way.

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Benjamin Deal - Professional - Instagram - TriRig - Lodi Cyclery
Deals on Wheels - Results, schedule, videos, sponsors

I'd like to step into the pricing discussion.

The examples of people bringing in TVs is off-base in the details each time; HDTV and LCDs are very mature technology, so each model year tends to start slightly lower than the previous was at launch and then drop over the year. This is more like when LCD TVs first became commercially available; those were very expensive even in '90s dollars. Same for OLEDs. The TV sitting in front of me is the nicest I've owned and is a humble 55" TCL that I got for under $400 at Costco (thanks, early adopters!). If this were 20 years ago I'd certainly have a CRT in front of me, but looking forward to when the flat-panels plunged in price (and plunge they did).

The example of the IA is perfect as well though. That launched at what, $15k? Now you can get the IA10 with Di2 for a third of that, and less for the IA16 with mechanical shifting. And power meters didn't just drop in price recently; I started this whole thing about a decade ago when SRMs were north of $2k and Powertaps were huge, heavy, and cost $1200 (maybe more). And you had to send it back in for battery replacement, and it didn't work with GPS natively. The price has been coming steadily down over the years for all measurement locations.

In cars you can't look at the price of the vehicle itself but rather what you get for that price. Let's just look at safety - now you get a dozen airbags, traction control, stability control, ABS, and who-knows-what else rolled into your car by default. For less real money than that same car cost twenty years ago, and for added fun you get more power and lower emissions. Those technologies all first became available on expensive luxury cars.

That time that I got into cycling and triathlon, Campy had just release 11-speed. I got 10-speed 105 and stayed with 10-speed until this winter. I'm sure I'll be riding 12-speed eventually, maybe under the name R8200. In the meantime, I'll be riding and racing, and know that if the guy with AXS beat me it's probably because he trained more. I might still be on 10-speed if I hadn't wanted to upgrade to Di2.

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The point is, ladies and gentleman, that speed, for lack of a better word, is good. Speed is right, Speed works. Speed clarifies, cuts through, and captures the essence of the evolutionary spirit.

Since I started that analogy, I'll disagree vehemently. OLED and QLED are very, very active areas of R&D, and the manufacturing processes are some of the most tightly-held intellectual property in the world. It wasn't 3-4 years ago that the HD versions for 5-figures. Today the UHD versions with the best black levels are still 45-figures.

By comparison chain-and-cog technology is very mature, and twiddling cog and ring sizes and a new standard for mounting cogs isn't really new technology, just formulating old technology into new product lines.

You quoted a part of my post about LCDs and applied that to OLED. Good job.

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The point is, ladies and gentleman, that speed, for lack of a better word, is good. Speed is right, Speed works. Speed clarifies, cuts through, and captures the essence of the evolutionary spirit.

LED is a type of LCD technology. The latest form.

OLED does not equal LED

Back to bicycles

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Make Inside Out Sports your next online tri shop! http://www.insideoutsports.com/

Speaking of which, whatever happened to all those glasses we were all supposed to be riding around with by now?

QUESTION: What about this 1x aero kit?!

How much gear range do we lose from the regular 2x11 most of us running nowadays?!

For me this is the crux of the 'discussion'. But from a different angle. Up until last year my road bike was a cannondale R700 with a whole load of upgrades to wheels, bars, a Quarq etc, and did everything I needed it to. Looked like shit, didn't bother me as when I'm sat on it I don't see it, and annoyed the crap out of all those who were looking at the back of it at the end of sprints from their carbon steeds. However, the 9sp shifter finally reached the end of it's life. Fair enough, 9sp is well gone, but I couldn't even get 10 speed. And 11 speed of course would mean new hubs.... So I needed to get a new bike (ok, cry me a river).

Same with my TT bike, it's 10 speed and has SRAM 80 wheels. Can't put 11 speed on, frame can't fit wide rims, so I can't do any updgrade there. But there is absolutely zero technical reason that Shimano Di2 couldn't index to 10 speed. They deliberately chose not to.

And so for me this isn't the 'gay marriage' argument, because my choices are being curtailed as a result of 'progress'. And what we have now is groupsets that are moving away from 'standardization', but pretty soon we run the risk of frames being groupset specific (BB sizes? Wireless only?) and then I see a real issue for the sport more generally. Great this halo stuff is out there. But the comments above about people selling the bike after 3 years so the PM is not an issue fails to recognise that there are people buying and racing this stuff. And these aren't the ones that are putting $300 chainrings on, they are putting the $75 aftermarket ones.

You also mentioned the $250k motorcycle. That has an engine. I am now going to set everyone up for easy target practice on me. But this is cycling. Pedal cycling. Kinda the point of the sport (for me) is the relative simplicity of the kit. I'm mechanically minded so do all my own wrenching. I get stressed enough when my Quarq battery goes flat (always at wrong time), or I've forgotten to turn off my LED rear light and it's flat as I'm heading out for an early ride. Bluetooth integrated wireless shifting s just taking my kit in a direction I fundamentally don't want. And loop back to the beginning, I have serious concerns that this isn't the Gay Marriage situation as the unintended consequence is that there won't be mechanical alternatives as the tolerances for 20 speed cassettes preculde mechanical, and all the frames will be for 160mm hubs with no front mech bosses.
(ok, taking tin foil hat off now)

All good points.

But, without going way off topic, yes you can indeed run 11 speed on your old frames/bikes WITHOUT having to buy any new hubs or wheels.

How?
See:
https://www.darkspeedworks.com/blog-11speed.htm

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Advanced Aero TopTube Storage for Road, Gravel, & Tri...ZeroSlip & Direct-mount, made in the USA.
DarkSpeedWorks.com.....Reviews.....Insta.....Facebook
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What?

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Make Inside Out Sports your next online tri shop! http://www.insideoutsports.com/

The halo product trickle down argument only works if things are trickling down, and force etap doesn't exist yet and it's been years. However, I'm not offended by the price. Just seems to me that if this is the way components are going i want no part in it. When i upgrade my groupset, i don't want to be forced to buy new wheels, new cranks, etc. Even if this does result in a cheaper offering later down the road, it's still too expensive because i have to replace everything instead of just my shifters and derailleurs. I couldn't even use this if i wanted anyway because the cranks are too long for both my tt and road bike, but that'sa different argument. This may be a technological win for sram. However, i see the closed system, incompatible with everything else, as a huge loss for the rest of us.

Is that 12x also 1x compatible by having some chain retention?

sram's launching some stuff in april. i have hints, but i'm not sure what. i think you might be gratified. that said, i don't think sram considers itself a leader in electronics. it doesn't have enough scale to compete in electronics in a downstream market. it's wheelhouse is in what it can do for 10t and 12 cogs in a 1x. i think if you look at what price you can buy nx eagle, for example, that's what sram does.

i'm guessing. pure guessing. but i think the downstream, affordable version of what you see with AXS is both 1x and 2x mechanical.

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Dan Empfield
aka Slowman

i'm pretty sure what you fear the problem is - or what a problem is - is the orphaning of older tech that won't be compatible with newer tech, i.e., you buy wheels today, you can't put them on the new bike you buy 3 years from today. do i understand you right?

and you brought up wheels, and it's funny you did, because i've given a lot of thought to the future of wheels and i see this precisely opposite of how you see it. the one big tech move that orphans wheels is to disc brake. otherwise, what we've seen is that hubs today are modular. you buy a wheel and you get a bunch of end caps. the drivers work like the end caps. in fact, for some years HED's been doing one better, and you can swap out the axles and cassette assemblies and move between shimano and campy.

and that's just at the hub. pretty much all top level wheels today - even aero wheels - are (or soon will be) wider between the beads (roughly 20mm), pave ready, and tubeless ready. that means you could ride the same wheel in a road race, a triathlon and in a gravel race. the only thing you can't do with that wheel is make its diameter smaller or larger.

what i see in my crystal ball is the "great convergence" where you will be able to choose parts from across use cases to make whatever bike you want.

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Dan Empfield
aka Slowman

You could get Tiagra 4700. If it was going on the bike you're describing, I can't imagine it offended your sensibilities to use a lower-end groupset. And as you say, 9-speed is well gone, but 10-speed isn't that far behind. The second iteration of 11-speed 105 came out last year. The first iteration of 11-speed 105 came out in 2014. For those keeping score at home, that's half a decade ago (and 10-speed 5700 came out in 2010). I know the mid-2010s sounds "recent', but in product terms it's really not. The higher-tier groupsets went 11-speed even earlier, of course. And yes, 12-speed will probably squash 11-speed over the course of the next decade. How long do you expect new examples of parts to be available after they're introduced?

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The point is, ladies and gentleman, that speed, for lack of a better word, is good. Speed is right, Speed works. Speed clarifies, cuts through, and captures the essence of the evolutionary spirit.

Thanks for replying. I get what you are saying, just I'll be honest I think I see it differently. Which is what discussion forums and conversation is all about.

To stick with the wheels, then you are right about the ability to swap end caps, etc, but I've still a garage full that won't work with my latest road bike because they were produced before they even new about the new standards. So my issue of longevity is still there, just as you say I potentially may get twice (or thrice) as much use in the first 3 years if I use on my TT, Road and Gravel bike. (lets not get into the 3 different wheel sizes for MTB making me carry a bag full of tubes when riding with my wife!)

For me, I tend to spend on top end stuff, then keep for a long time. As opposed to mid range and replace every 3 years. So I'm probably a minority and 'low value' (to the manufacturers) consumer. I'm still struggling with the idea we fund Buffalo bikes as essential transport for part of the world while jumping on a bandwaggon of supporting 'disposable' bikes with a life of 3 years.

I think I need to accept times have changed and my approach can't work. My MTB frame which is covered by a life warranty is onto it's 3rd frame in 6 years (of which it didn't move for 3+ years as I was injured). However, it cost $1200 to replace parts as the new frame had compatibility issues with various bits. Economically I should have skipped a lightly used 2012 Epic Expert and bought an Expert Comp.

Back to AXS. What the system offers is impressive and I can definitely see how it would make riding more pleasurable when out on it. With reference to mechanical 10 speed, then will it make riders faster - perhaps. Make the bike more reliable - unsure but I doubt it. Easier to maintain at home - no. Am I likely to buy it or even a lower level, no. Would I have a ride on one if I got the chance at a demo - in a heart beat, and then I may well see why those like Dan that have ridden it are so positive, and it's just the dinosaur keyboard warrior CAVE people (look it up) that are haters.

They're at least the leader in the narrow realm of wireless shifting. I think it's astonishing how reliable eTap was out of the gate. There have been zero firmware updates. The motors don't fail. The wireless doesn't have interference issues. There are no battery drain issues. I honestly don't know how they pulled that off given the myriad things that can go wrong with such a system.

Now maybe it's not feasible to make eTap cheaper and maintain that reliability, which I think is your point. That's certainly possible.

if you're bemoaning lifespan, that's one thing. if you're bemoaning orphaned standards, that's another thing. if you're bemoaning the ability to swap across platforms, that's another thing. they're all real things, and good to talk about, but i see very little that AXS has to do with any of it.

product lifespans. yes, that's a real thing. perhaps you bought from a bad manufacturers, both as regards the product and the terms by which the replacement frame arrives (cost to ship, cost to have parts swapped over). i don't know. i've had very good (knock on wood) luck on product life. the stuff i own tends not to break. but your concern is a real concern, that we also hear with automobiles, home appliances, etc.

orphaned standards: there's only 1 orphaned "standard" that's at issue here: the FD tab length and placement, if and when these guys come out with a 43/30 set of chain rings or something like that. otherwise, the big industry changeover is from rim brake to disc brake. yup. sorry! we're all going to have to deal with that. that said - and here's an example - my everyday gravel bike is disc brake, quick release axle. i've got zipp 303s on this bike. if i get another frameset, thru axles, AXS drive train, presto change-o, in 3 minutes the 303s are ready (just swap out end caps and driver body, and all wheel companies offer this now). when i compare this to the change from, say, 8sp to 9sp, 126.5mm rear spacing to 130mm, and more than i care to relive, to me (?) the industry is getting closer to, not further from, inoculation from the orphaned standard. further, as i wrote, what you'll see is a blurring - perhaps disintegration - of the lines between parts built for various use cases. i'd be shocked if eagle doesn't adopt the flat top chain; if all SRAM cranks don't migrate to direct mount; if the RDs don't mostly look alike; and if RDs work as both 1x and 2x. in other words, very few of these parts will be limited to specific use cases.

your beefs are real, and legitimate, but SRAM moving to 12sp didn't break your frame twice.

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Dan Empfield
aka Slowman

I guess I'm going ahead in that introducing a new standard can lead to orphaned standards. Shimano for example was a prime example when they brought out 10speed only wheels for a while for absolutely no engineering reason to not be backward compatible.

My 'beef' here is the notion of planned limited life with the chainring and the powermeter. Now, someone can buy a 3 year old bike and keep it running with cheap chainrings. In the future then they can't if it's got the AXS powermeter. However my argument falls down here (I hope) in that this is just AXS and there will be more traditional options. They can chose to ride without a powermeter to save money, not without a chainring with any teeth left on a working powermeter.

The MTB frame issue was one of standards - new frames don't have ANY front mech mounts they are 1x only. Hence you can't move over any groupset. As a result of 'progress' then the 2x has become an orphaned standard. I'll not comment on Specialized's quality as a manufacturer, but we can probably agree they sell sufficient volume to make this an issue for many cyclists.

And I've no concern at all about AXS itself. What I have a concern about is that it's a symptom of the direction all manufacturers will take, and as in the DC Rainmaker article that means anything bought before 'today' would need adaption - either for trainers, wheels, etc etc. So perhaps my post was in the wrong place, and I should have a separate 'flat earth believers all progress is bad' thread. Saying this with great respect and hopefully you see the intended tone in my posts.

Based on the reviews, this looks like an amazing group:

Likes:
- clutched RD, finally
- direct mount chainrings, finally
- great gearing options: huge range, tiny increments. basically perfect options for road and MTB riding.
- spacing in rear cassette apparently means quiet operation

Meh:
- brake and rotor redesign. Seems mostly aesthetic

Boo:
- XD drivers are good, but I could do without yet another freehub standard
- proprietary chain design. I'm sure other companies will eventually make a chain that works with it.

My main problem is my past experiences with various SRAM products:
- two failed pairs of brake master cylinders (SRAM Guides). Both failed shockingly quickly. SRAM should have recalled the Guides, especially as they were introduced in the wake of the Avid Juicy debacle. In fairness, SRAM replaced both of my pairs of levers on warranty, no questions asked.
- terrible road hydro feel in Force 1. Ultegra is night and day better feeling.
- a failed Force 1 lever, internals exploded on a cold day.
- leaking Rockshox seals on a Pike fork.
- a failed Zipp 303 rear hub, years ago.

I think the company is great at innovation, less great at testing and quality assurance. Shimano is boring by comparison, but dammit Shimano's stuff is bulletproof and tolerant of mistreatment.

add to the problem list: quarq customer service is the best in the business lol

no thanks shimano di2 works every time all the time!!!

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The entire event (IM) is like "death by 1000 cuts" and the best race is minimizing all those cuts and losing less blood than the other guy. - Dev

The overwhelmingly issue people have with AXS is the price combined with the fact that’s it’s not a major advancement. So why should we pay a premium to “upgrade”?? Something Jan doesn’t have to worry about.

I don’t think anyone is suggesting that AXS is a shitty system that’s going to slow anyone down. I’m not a fan of 1x for tri personally. I like close gearing and want all available options. But that’s just my personal preference. I will say that I will be curious to see if Jan stays with 1x through the year.

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blog

Not shitty, but people are suggesting that AXS *might* cost on the order of 1-2W relative to a system that allows running a bigger ring/cog combo with the same effective gearing. Which wouldn't change very many race results, but wouldn't be optimal for TTers who just put the bike in a relatively large gear all day.

But we don't know what we don't know. Maybe the new RD damper system releases chain tension with small cogs and that offsets the losses. Or something.

I guess if the aero benefits of 1x offset any inefficiencies in the 12 speed drivetrain then its going to be more or less a performance equal to 2x11 etap with some simplicity and benefits of newer technology. I've only ever done triathlon on 1x, including a very hilly 70.3 Worlds in Chattanooga, and have never had any issues with the gear spacing but then again its all I've ever known. That's kind of why I was surprised to see Jan on 1x as well. From what I've heard most very good cyclists and TT'ers will never switch to 1x for gearing reasons.

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Benjamin Deal - Professional - Instagram - TriRig - Lodi Cyclery
Deals on Wheels - Results, schedule, videos, sponsors

Yes, the speed at which Eagle 1x12 trickled down the lineup was astounding. 1x11 road w/hydro discs went from Force to Apex pretty quickly, as well. SRAM will probably be the first with a reasonable priced mechanical road 12-speed, but I can see why AXS/eTap will remain a higher end offering. The budget minded amongst us hope there will still be cross-compatibility, and that you'll be able to piece together a somewhat cheaper electronic setup by pairing the AXS eTap derailleurs and shifters with Force or even Rival level cranks, chains, and cassettes.

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"They're made of latex, not nitroglycerin"

Will it be possible to just swap out the blip box on the old etap? Would be great to get the smaller one so it can be better hidden.

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Terrible Tuesday’s Triathlon

As a cyclist I'm excited by the tech, but as a German I feel a bit guilty being excited by the new AXS Power.

If you're going to try to redefine standard chainring combos, and go through the effort of convincing people that the new options make sense, this would seem to be a great time to sensibly broaden the gearing range and try and sell people on lower* options that would actually be suitable for most riders.
But nope, the 3 options are in ~5% gearing increments, and even choosing the lowest one means burning gear ratios by having a straight block that starts with a gear that's higher than a 50-11.

If you're going to try to redefine standard chainring combos, and go through the effort of convincing people that the new options make sense, and you have a computer-controlled shifting system, this would seem to be a great time to reintroduce an option that utilizes a half-step-esque arrangement to offer an absolutely huge range without any widely-spaced gears.
But nope, neither Shimano nor SRAM nor Campy have done this, for some reason. Because it's not like being able to cover a 500+% range with no >10% gear steps would be totally awesome or anything.

:/


Not that I disagree that the rapid death of "standards" is kind of annoying. The average bike shop has a better selection of replacement parts for my '79 Fuji than for a lot of the bikes on their own show floor! But...

If the problem is that your 9-speed shifter died, why not just get a new 9-speed shifter?

Took me a minute, LOL!

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"They're made of latex, not nitroglycerin"

First, SRAM *did* broaden the gear range. On both ends. So you just think it's not sensible. And they have more 1-tooth jumps than competitor road groups.

It sounds like maybe you'd prefer cassette options with those 1-tooth jumps be shifted "up cassette" rather than packed between 10 and 17?

Hmm. I prefer what SRAM did here. I like the range all in one cassette, with, in my opinion, very reasonable jumps. When I'm doing a super climbing day and want ratios near 1.00, I typically am also having a super descending day and want the bike control during descents given by 53-11 type ratios.

Anyone have guesses on the Force AXS pricing when it gets announced in April.

Red 22 group (brifters, FD, RD, road calipers, bb, chain, cassette, crankset): $2160
Force 22 group (same as above): $984
(mrsp pricing from Glory Cycles)

Red AXS (brifters, FD, RD, disk calipers): $2500

Would we see it coming in around $1200 for Force AXS brifters, FD, RD, disk calipers?

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Matt

Someone mentioned above that 9speed Ultegra / 105 was discontinued a long time ago, so I'd have been on tiagra. To be honest when searching I admit I looked at 105 but didn't think to go further 'down' to even realise that it was 9 speed. Something in the back of my mind rings a bell about brake pull ratios and tiagra too, but that may be even more ancient, and it's all irrelevant now ;-) But perhaps you've nailed a good point, 2018 tiagra is probably (i don't know) as light, efficient and 'snappy' as 2005 Ultegra was. So perhaps this discussion is vailid in the sense that there will still be replacements of equal performance available, it's just going to be labelled as a lower range as the performance of the top / mid rises each year.

Well... things aren't always quite that nice. Design features trickle down quickly on bicycles, but build quality is more glacial.
For example, in some ways I'd argue that my 1970s SunTour Cyclone GT is actually a better-made derailleur than my modern RD-5800: the ancient finish still looks great, it's got a neat idler cage design which allows the chain and derailleur to be separated without breaking the chain, and it's lighter than any rear derailleur Shimano currently makes besides mechanical Dura-Ace. Where the new part wins is mostly on featureset: it can traverse a modern rear cluster (11-speed cassettes are physically wider than the 5/6/7-speed freewheels that the Cyclone GT was designed for) and it can be used as part of an indexed drivetrain.
I'm not sure what the weights were for 9-speed Tiagra, but current 10-speed Tiagra shifters are slightly heavier than 9-speed Ultegra was.

But, 9-speed Tiagra or Sora replacements would work fine, as would a 9-speed Microshift brifter. I guess what I'd say is, it's not the sort of thing I'd get rid of a bike over, unless I was looking for reasons to get rid of the bike.

Don't forget you have to use their crank, chain, chainrings, and cassette too. No partial groupset upgrade with this one

I am in the process of building up a brand new 1x Tri bike and am now strongly considering selling all of those unused components and moving over to the new AXS stuff. I particularly like that the blip box is much smaller and will be easier to hide. However I also just bought a brand new Quarq DZero Powermeter that is a 162.5 crank length (wanted shorter, but this was the shortest they made). I don't have a problem with the new integrated PM into the chainrings, but can't solve for my current with with the crank lengths offered in the new AXS. Can anybody answer these questions:

1. Will the existing 11-spd Xsync Chainrings work with a new AXS drivetrain?
2. If not, do they (or will they) be offering chainrings that will work with this system that I can bolt onto the ~$1,100 SRAM Red DZero Quarq that I literally just bought a month ago and have never even ridden yet?

Also I'm running a 52T chainring and an 11-40 Cassette... This almost perfectly matches the gear range I used to have with my old 2x setup with a 52/36 and an 11-28 Cassette (I think this is a pretty standard setup/range for many triathletes doing hilly-ish courses). If they theoretically can handle a 10-50 with this RD technology, why would they not have a bigger cassette range than a 10-33? If I went down to a 48T Chainring, then I'd have roughly the same top end ratio, but even there, I'd want 35 or 36 tooth biggest cog. I'd love to run a 50T Chainring and a 10-39 or 10-40 Cassette...

I'm mostly price agnostic on this stuff but I honestly don't think the price on a 1x TT setup is all that unreasonable (compared to building something similar with the 11-spd eTap). And I've never gone through a chainring, so I think the new Quarq is a slight upgrade in technology for roughly the same price... However if I can't build with I think is a "Standard" gear ratio (for me) then it doesn't work for me. Even worse, if I can't use the correct length cranks then it definitely doesn't work for me... Seems like a bigger range on a cassette would be a fairly simple fix and I'm hoping at a minimum a competitor's cassettes will work smoothly with this system (I went with the XTR 11-40 and a Wolftooth Roadlink to make it work with the 11-speed eTap with the long cage).

I think it's covered earlier in the thread, but the etap AXS rear derailleur and the Eagle AXS rear derailleur are separate items. The Eagle is what's built for the big cassettes. There's mention of an 11-50 rear cassette as well which should be semi similar spacing to your current 11-40 cassette and fit on the same wheel.

Ok, so it seems the German rep was a bit confused - he was referring to the max ring size for branded eagle, not what is actually possible. Here is a more clear response from the US SRAMs rep:

[/Thanks for reaching out! That mix and match set up is something that we state will work! Pretty exciting builds are happening! For the 1X option you would only have 40T, 44T, and 46T to choose from. We also have the 48T and 50T aero option too. The downfall with going to the larger 1X options is that you will need to consider buying two chain to have something long enough.b]

Sooo, all good if you wanna do something big with the chainring and buy two chains. I guess on the second chain, you could get at least two uses out of it...but you gotta pony up for two chains to pull it off with big rings.

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