The 10-42 XG-1180 cassette was introduced with Force/Rival 1X over four years ago . Though either through lackluster options (one cassette explicitly branded for road) or poor marketing the XD driver never caught on very much for 1x road.

Now they're gonna ram the new freehub body down our throats, for better or worse.

Valid point. None of need this set up to cycle any more than we need a $250k motorcycle, but this product will find its way into many more new bikes that we are looking to buy and is being marketed much harder to the average Slowtwitching cyclist than a $250k motorcycle would be. We are the target audience and we are screaming enough is enough on pricing. We want this product and will pay a premium for it, but at some point—and this is clearly it at least for me—the scales tip too far. I wonder if people will actually (not) put their money where their mouth is. I’m appreciate the trickle down effect and recently took advantage of it. But I won’t be upgrading to this anytime soon.

I believe 30 years ago, HED disc wheels were about $350 or $400 for their standard weight disc wheel, and their ultralight version, which was maybe 100 grams light was another $100 more. Zipp discs in the late 1980s to early 1990s were all sub $1000, the 950 (Model name equal to wheel weight) and 1150 (cheaper and heavier wheel). I remember the Zipp reps used to put the 1150 on the ground and stand on them to show their ‘durability’. As to the earliest, custom made, low volume produced discs, I’m sure they were more, but I don’t think that’s a good comparison. The Campy Ghiblis were pricey when they came out (well over $1000) and so were the Accel Falcons, which were supposedly sub 800 grams. The J Disc, heavily used by sponsored athletes Pigg and Riccitello could be had for under $300. Anyway, lots of competition came pretty quickly in the late 80s / early 90s and prices were competitive.

Zipps Super 9 Carbon Clincher retails today for $2731, which is, adjusted for inflation, not cheaper at all than their wheels 30 years ago. As their top of the line wheel was sub $1000 in 1989. Inflation is roughly 100% over the last 30 years, so a $750 wheel should be selling for $1500 to be price equal. There are lots of cheaper disc wheel options today, inflation adjusted, but there are clearly some that are more, such as the Zipp. I currently own Zipp products, HED products, Shimano, and SRAM (including etap), and don’t have a dog in the SRAM pricing discussion, as I imagine they have done market research to price it the highest they can, and still sell the volume of units they wish to sell.

Sorry I did not read everything, but I always thought that big/big is faster than small/small
(e.g. 53/11 is faster than 48/10),
because the chain bends less.
For the same reasons, big pulleywheels are considered faster, but I still haven‘t seen them with XRAM, Shimano or Campagnolo. The pulleywheels in AXS seem also conventionally small.
Seems all strange to me.

I think many of us will agree that we'd prefer to keep our hubs and start at 11t. Fingers crossed we'll get that. Other upside would be that more of us could size up to the aero 48t chain ring.

There's always Campy 12sp cassettes that start at 11t - but that would require a freehub change - although I'm not sure if the Campy spacing is the same as the new Sram 12sp. Most people got 11sp campy/shimano/sram cassettes and RDs to be compatible, as the spacing was so close it "worked". (10sp campy and sram/shimano however is not compatible at all). I suspect the 12sp spacing between Campy and Sram will be even closer, so in all likelihood will "work" fine, but I guess we wont know for sure until someone tries it.

Either way, with Campy and Sram road now at 12sp, Shimano and the likes of Rotor will surely follow suit, so give it a year-18months and you'll likely have a plethora of 12sp cassettes to chose from...

I for one, as someone who is a fan of 1x for Tri/TT, am very excited for an AXS 1x set up (when I can afford it, haha!). 50 x 10-33 has me covered for anything I'll ever need. More aero, lighter, clutch (dampened) RD, bigger gear range, more 1t steps... what's not to love?

Also, I can't really see a reason why the current range of 1x NW chain rings would not be compatible with the 12sp chain (other than Sram saying its not, but in the past they've said a lot of their components are not compatible and I've got them to work absolutely fine). E.g. there are a LOT of third party aftermarket manufactures of MTB 1x chain rings that work absolutely perfectly with the SRAM Eagle 12sp, eg Wolftooth.

So potentially I wouldn't even need to change my current crank/PM, just slap on a new NW chainring on there and go. That said, that new AXS 1x Quarq PM with Aero Chainring looks super sexy. I might not be able to resist it :)

Any one have an idea whether the new BlipBox will fit inside the P5 Aduro base bar?

(Please, please, please let it be able to...)

But that's unacceptable to the bike industry who already wants you to buy new wheels for the disc brakes. Now you have TWO reasons to buy new wheels or hubs.

But the thing is that a majority of the swap parts will not profit SRAM. I'd have to go to DT Swiss and CycleOps for mine.

Not replying to you but just in general. Two local pros told me the PM doesn't read cadence correclty. They have been using this under NDA since december. There is another 12x groupo that the EF boys have raved about though. Not Campy either

Actually i will still be driving nice cars and have nice homes and have nice thing s that cost a lot . I’m not hating on bicycles i have been riding 10,000 miles a year for a long time. I love it , it’s my passion . I just know when i walk in a bike shop and the price tag on a bicycle is as much as some Harley’s , Honda’s, Ducati . It just makes me take a step back and really make a decision on is it worth it. Not hating just the reality

okay. but then you see a harley that cost more than your house and the two on either side of it, does that make you dislike all motorcycles? does the fact that only a tiny fraction of sold harleys are in that price point sour your taste for all harleys? and suzukis and ducattis too?

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Dan Empfield
aka Slowman

So, about the objection to AXS based on its exorbitant price...

Cannondale SystemSix with Dura-Ace Di2: $11,500

Cannondale SystemSix with Red eTap AXS: $10,000

So the AXS bike is $1,500 less than the Di2 bike.

Moreover, Shimano has had significant issues delivering certain components after their factory fire. I have had my DA Di2 SystemSix ordered since July 6, 2018 and STILL don't have it. Yes, if you are doing the math at home, that's 7 months and counting.

Meanwhile, the same LBS that has my DA Di2 SystemSix on order just posted photos of the AXS bike, which they already have in their shop.

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Amateur recreational hobbyist cyclist
https://www.strava.com/athletes/337152
https://vimeo.com/user11846099

i first met steve hed in 1986 i think. i remember his first disc as $700. no cheaper. but maybe your memory is sharper than mine.

i don't think your zipp argument is pertinent here. i'm saying that halo products eventually flow down to commodity pricing, if you're patient. that happened with every tech you ride. you're arguing that no, that's not true, and as evidence you're supplying from today... another halo product!

no, today's zipp $2731 wheel is not evidence. that wheel, somebody's going to make it 5 years from now for half that price. i'm not saying zipp's halo product in 5 years is going to half what it costs now. there will always be a halo product out there. shimano will make a halo product. but in 7 years that basic tech will have flowed down to another shimano product line half that price, or cheaper.

we keep having this argument here. there's just a cohort of folks who're offended by halo products. this happens with every launch. it's the gay marriage problem, rebadged. the very existence of something happening 2 blocks over somehow makes your marriage less satisfying. i just don't understand that mindset.

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Dan Empfield
aka Slowman

There are a few big differences here. Those 250K Harlys are showpieces. They are often not much better than something significantly less but are hit up with expensive lavish extras to make it exclusive. Same could be said for Bougattis etc. Just where do you plan to drive one of those where you can safely use it? There is simply nothing practical about them, nor will anything about them trickle down to vehicles affordable by those making less than 5M a year.

When it comes to bikes, anyone even just putzing around, can benefit from a top end bike. One could even argue, that all things being equal, you will be at a disadvantage if you don't use a top end bike.

With that being said top end bikes have always been expensive, but the point many are trying to make is they are now approaching the point of stupid ludicrously expensive such that they are in the realm of a 250K Harley. Even though many here could afford a 250K Harley, it's just a ludicrous amount of money that it's not even a consideration.

To be perfectly honest, at 4K to 5K for a groupset, I don't even care what it offers. It's an absurd price point and I'm not even going to consider it. If SRAM wants to continue alienating their customer base, then by all means continue on this path.

With all of the emotion that this product launch has stirred up, this seems like a great topic for the next Slowtwitch poll.

This just in:
Frodo posted a new bike day picture on Insta of just the front of his drivetrain. Looks like he's racing with AXS 1X and the aero chain ring. Obviously there is sponsor money there but you have to imagine he wouldn't swap if he thought it wasn't right for Triathlon.

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Benjamin Deal - Professional - Instagram - TriRig - Lodi Cyclery
Deals on Wheels - Results, schedule, videos, sponsors

It's very possible the 1986 HED disc was $700, but within a few years their standard lenticular disc was sub $500. I bought a couple of those at that time. One at full retail and then one because of a crash replacement. They had, from memory, a $150 crash replacement policy on that wheel... amazing company.

Uhhh what?? He’s paid to use a product. Of course he’s going to switch to AXS. He’s not paid to think about everyone else and what’s best for the masses.

I’d be running AXS too if I was paid for it.

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But he didn't have to go to AXS 1X, and I'm sure if he had any fundamental issues with the gearing and/or 12 speed functionality he could just stick with the traditional etap. He's not going to voluntarily gimp his bike splits in any significant way.

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Benjamin Deal - Professional - Instagram - TriRig - Lodi Cyclery
Deals on Wheels - Results, schedule, videos, sponsors

I'd like to step into the pricing discussion.

The examples of people bringing in TVs is off-base in the details each time; HDTV and LCDs are very mature technology, so each model year tends to start slightly lower than the previous was at launch and then drop over the year. This is more like when LCD TVs first became commercially available; those were very expensive even in '90s dollars. Same for OLEDs. The TV sitting in front of me is the nicest I've owned and is a humble 55" TCL that I got for under $400 at Costco (thanks, early adopters!). If this were 20 years ago I'd certainly have a CRT in front of me, but looking forward to when the flat-panels plunged in price (and plunge they did).

The example of the IA is perfect as well though. That launched at what, $15k? Now you can get the IA10 with Di2 for a third of that, and less for the IA16 with mechanical shifting. And power meters didn't just drop in price recently; I started this whole thing about a decade ago when SRMs were north of $2k and Powertaps were huge, heavy, and cost $1200 (maybe more). And you had to send it back in for battery replacement, and it didn't work with GPS natively. The price has been coming steadily down over the years for all measurement locations.

In cars you can't look at the price of the vehicle itself but rather what you get for that price. Let's just look at safety - now you get a dozen airbags, traction control, stability control, ABS, and who-knows-what else rolled into your car by default. For less real money than that same car cost twenty years ago, and for added fun you get more power and lower emissions. Those technologies all first became available on expensive luxury cars.

That time that I got into cycling and triathlon, Campy had just release 11-speed. I got 10-speed 105 and stayed with 10-speed until this winter. I'm sure I'll be riding 12-speed eventually, maybe under the name R8200. In the meantime, I'll be riding and racing, and know that if the guy with AXS beat me it's probably because he trained more. I might still be on 10-speed if I hadn't wanted to upgrade to Di2.

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The point is, ladies and gentleman, that speed, for lack of a better word, is good. Speed is right, Speed works. Speed clarifies, cuts through, and captures the essence of the evolutionary spirit.

Since I started that analogy, I'll disagree vehemently. OLED and QLED are very, very active areas of R&D, and the manufacturing processes are some of the most tightly-held intellectual property in the world. It wasn't 3-4 years ago that the HD versions for 5-figures. Today the UHD versions with the best black levels are still 45-figures.

By comparison chain-and-cog technology is very mature, and twiddling cog and ring sizes and a new standard for mounting cogs isn't really new technology, just formulating old technology into new product lines.

You quoted a part of my post about LCDs and applied that to OLED. Good job.

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The point is, ladies and gentleman, that speed, for lack of a better word, is good. Speed is right, Speed works. Speed clarifies, cuts through, and captures the essence of the evolutionary spirit.

LED is a type of LCD technology. The latest form.

OLED does not equal LED

Back to bicycles

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