Same experience as most. Not wearing a wet suit slows me down several minutes so I was back in a pack with wetsuit guys that I would not have seen otherwise. It was frustrating but, in the end, I made it just fine. It was interesting trying to figure out on the bike who had a wetsuit and who did not. I do not think the swimmers were rougher than normal (at LP); although not having a wetsuit makes the initial madness more intimidating. I just think they should have a hard temperature cut off for wetsuits.
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Re: Mixed Wetsuit and Wetsuit Mass Start: Please post your experiences [devashish_paul]
[ In reply to ]
Re: Mixed Wetsuit and Wetsuit Mass Start: Please post your experiences [AlexG]
[ In reply to ]
Well said!
I agree that the skins vs. suits pace made things more equal and these two groups swam together when they would not had it been even (both wearing suits, or both not).
I failed to mention in my post earlier that I did have hands grab my leg and pull. And, grab my shoulder and pull. Both happened several times.
Both these actions were most likely unintentional, but a consequence of what happen when we have a mix. I am convinced of this based on my experience and what I read from IM TX & IM LP racers from 2011.
The thread has taken a few turns (water temp, course design, etc.) but I think from what I read is this:
I agree that the skins vs. suits pace made things more equal and these two groups swam together when they would not had it been even (both wearing suits, or both not).
I failed to mention in my post earlier that I did have hands grab my leg and pull. And, grab my shoulder and pull. Both happened several times.
Both these actions were most likely unintentional, but a consequence of what happen when we have a mix. I am convinced of this based on my experience and what I read from IM TX & IM LP racers from 2011.
The thread has taken a few turns (water temp, course design, etc.) but I think from what I read is this:
- Majority agree that we all WEAR a wetsuit -or- we all do NOT.
- Only way you could wear one is...you are in the very last wave with all your rubberized friends.
Re: Mixed Wetsuit and Wetsuit Mass Start: Please post your experiences [devashish_paul]
[ In reply to ]
Here is a bit of data from IMTX to provide some food for thought. After viewing several videos of the Lake Placid swim it's pretty obvious a much larger portion of that field wore wetsuits.
Males :
Percentage makeup - 36% swam with wetsuits while 64% swam without them
Mean swim time ----- 1:25:40 with wetsuit--------------1:25:33 without
Median swim time --- 1:24:35 with wetsuit--------------1:24:12 without
Average finish time--13:47:41 with wetsuit-------------12:56:58 without
Females:
Percentage makeup- 34% swam with wetsuits while 66% swam without them
Mean swim time------1:33:05 with wetsuit---------------1:28:58 without
Median swim time ---1:32:27 with wetsuit---------------1:27:20 without
Average finish time-14:38:03 with wetsuit-------------13:30:53 without
Genetics load the gun, lifestyle pulls the trigger.
Males :
Percentage makeup - 36% swam with wetsuits while 64% swam without them
Mean swim time ----- 1:25:40 with wetsuit--------------1:25:33 without
Median swim time --- 1:24:35 with wetsuit--------------1:24:12 without
Average finish time--13:47:41 with wetsuit-------------12:56:58 without
Females:
Percentage makeup- 34% swam with wetsuits while 66% swam without them
Mean swim time------1:33:05 with wetsuit---------------1:28:58 without
Median swim time ---1:32:27 with wetsuit---------------1:27:20 without
Average finish time-14:38:03 with wetsuit-------------13:30:53 without
Genetics load the gun, lifestyle pulls the trigger.
Re: Mixed Wetsuit and Wetsuit Mass Start: Please post your experiences [swjohnson]
[ In reply to ]
I agree. Up the temp and make it all or none. Not mixed
Greg C. Moriates
Owner/Coach
GCMendurance.com
Greg C. Moriates
Owner/Coach
GCMendurance.com
Re: Mixed Wetsuit and Wetsuit Mass Start: Please post your experiences [moriatesg]
[ In reply to ]
For what it's worth, as a business model, trying to keep everyone happy never works. Putting everyone on the same playing field works every time.
This is REALLY simple stuff.
This is REALLY simple stuff.
Re: Mixed Wetsuit and Wetsuit Mass Start: Please post your experiences [sciguy]
[ In reply to ]
Hugh,
Interesting data on WS vs non WS breakdown from Texas. Would be interesting to see from IMLP. Seems like the non WS would be much smaller in the colder water in LP vs Texas.
I'll wait until later this afternoon for any more accounts and then forward my summary later today to the WTC guys.
thanks to everyone for your contributions.
Dev
Interesting data on WS vs non WS breakdown from Texas. Would be interesting to see from IMLP. Seems like the non WS would be much smaller in the colder water in LP vs Texas.
I'll wait until later this afternoon for any more accounts and then forward my summary later today to the WTC guys.
thanks to everyone for your contributions.
Dev
Re: Mixed Wetsuit and Wetsuit Mass Start: Please post your experiences [devashish_paul]
[ In reply to ]
devashish_paul wrote:
Hugh, Interesting data on WS vs non WS breakdown from Texas. Would be interesting to see from IMLP. Seems like the non WS would be much smaller in the colder water in LP vs Texas.
I'll wait until later this afternoon for any more accounts and then forward my summary later today to the WTC guys.
thanks to everyone for your contributions.
Dev
One thing to note is that the Texas data is at least somewhat flawed. In the very few minutes I stood and observed athletes passing over the two different timing mats there were a good number of wetsuit wearers who went over the mat for the non-wetsuit folks. There was a semicontinuous announcement being made in regards to which mat to pass over but with the loud music and Mike Riley's continuous urging for everyone to get in the water not everyone seemed to notice or at least heed the directive.
From watching several of the IMLP videos, It's obvious that the ratio was reversed there.
Hugh
Genetics load the gun, lifestyle pulls the trigger.
Re: Mixed Wetsuit and Wetsuit Mass Start: Please post your experiences [devashish_paul]
[ In reply to ]
Looking at the enhanced results illustrates why the mixed start is less than desirable. I had a 4:30 something T1 time which is not all that fast especially without a suit to deal with and passed 231 people in T1. That seems ridiculous.
Re: Mixed Wetsuit and Wetsuit Mass Start: Please post your experiences [moriatesg]
[ In reply to ]
moriatesg wrote:
I agree. Up the temp and make it all or none. Not mixedI agree but LOWER the temp and make it all or none.
jamie
Re: Mixed Wetsuit and Wetsuit Mass Start: Please post your experiences [Chris G]
[ In reply to ]
Ha ha well, you were in a race.
They need a hospital administrator running T1...the length of stay would decrease
Coach at KonaCoach Multisport
They need a hospital administrator running T1...the length of stay would decrease
Coach at KonaCoach Multisport
Re: Mixed Wetsuit and Wetsuit Mass Start: Please post your experiences [Terra-Man]
[ In reply to ]
I was at IMLP. The root cause of the swim problems wasn't wetsuit vs non-wetsuit, it's WTCs greed. They put 2500+ swimmers in a very small lake that on a good day can only handle 2000 - 2100. It was total greed on the part of WTC that caused people to be pummeled on the swim. BTW, after being kicked twice in the head on the swim, I was pulled from the race with a concussion after the first bike loop.
Re: Mixed Wetsuit and Wetsuit Mass Start: Please post your experiences [zuluwp]
[ In reply to ]
Thanks for posting. Sorry about your concussion...I can relate as I ended up with one that was pretty bad at IM Switzerland, but it had nothing to do with the swim. Glad your concussion did not get to the point where you were knocked out cold and lost consciousness....that would be horrible in a mass start (I was out cold for 10 min with mine, but it was on land). How did you become aware of your situation on the bike....did you end up with nausea and vomiting and headaches?
WRT to your statement about overcrowding, I don't even think the start area is great with 2000 people. It was really nice in 1999 with 1400. Of course you could end up with much less than 1400 even with 2600 starters if there were waves as they have in some Ironmans.
Dev
WRT to your statement about overcrowding, I don't even think the start area is great with 2000 people. It was really nice in 1999 with 1400. Of course you could end up with much less than 1400 even with 2600 starters if there were waves as they have in some Ironmans.
Dev
Re: Mixed Wetsuit and Wetsuit Mass Start: Please post your experiences [devashish_paul]
[ In reply to ]
I've only been in small mass starts and have only had a few smacks to the head, so I am lucky. I'm a slow swimmer, so it works OK for me to hang in back at the start.
Re: Mixed Wetsuit and Wetsuit Mass Start: Please post your experiences [devashish_paul]
[ In reply to ]
Thanks! I'm feeling a lot better.
LP was my fourth IM and I qualified for and i'm going to Kona this year so LP wasn't my first rodeo. But it was the worst open water swim I have ever experienced. Maybe it was because I'm a female and I just couldn't mix it up with guys who outweighed me by 40 or 50 pounds.
When I got out of the water, I had a headache and was dizzy. When I started riding the neausa began. I would stop at each aide station to try to clear my head but as soon as i started riding everything went south again. When I got back to LP, I talked to family and they urged me to go to the med tent. The doc examed me for a whole 30 seconds and then took my chip. She made the right call because I was totally out of it.
LP was my fourth IM and I qualified for and i'm going to Kona this year so LP wasn't my first rodeo. But it was the worst open water swim I have ever experienced. Maybe it was because I'm a female and I just couldn't mix it up with guys who outweighed me by 40 or 50 pounds.
When I got out of the water, I had a headache and was dizzy. When I started riding the neausa began. I would stop at each aide station to try to clear my head but as soon as i started riding everything went south again. When I got back to LP, I talked to family and they urged me to go to the med tent. The doc examed me for a whole 30 seconds and then took my chip. She made the right call because I was totally out of it.
Re: Mixed Wetsuit and Wetsuit Mass Start: Please post your experiences [zuluwp]
[ In reply to ]
You qualified for Kona by being pulled out of the race???? I don't care about Kona, and I'm happy for you that you are qualified if that's your deal, I'm just trying to decipher your post.
Have a blast at Kona!
Have a blast at Kona!
Re: Mixed Wetsuit and Wetsuit Mass Start: Please post your experiences [Painless]
[ In reply to ]
I qualified at Wisconsin last year, sorry I wasn't more clear.
Re: Mixed Wetsuit and Wetsuit Mass Start: Please post your experiences [Painless]
[ In reply to ]
Painless wrote:
You qualified for Kona by being pulled out of the race???? I don't care about Kona, and I'm happy for you that you are qualified if that's your deal, I'm just trying to decipher your post. Have a blast at Kona!
You are such a f'n tool. Biggest one in the shed.
She mentioned that she had done 3 other IM's prior, so obviously one of those was such that it got her in to Kona this year.
But thanks for yet another insightful post. Troll.
float , hammer , and jog
Last edited by:
Murphy'sLaw: Jul 29, 11 5:50
Re: Mixed Wetsuit and Wetsuit Mass Start: Please post your experiences [zuluwp]
[ In reply to ]
zuluwp wrote:
Thanks! I'm feeling a lot better. LP was my fourth IM and I qualified for and i'm going to Kona this year so LP wasn't my first rodeo. But it was the worst open water swim I have ever experienced. Maybe it was because I'm a female and I just couldn't mix it up with guys who outweighed me by 40 or 50 pounds.
When I got out of the water, I had a headache and was dizzy. When I started riding the neausa began. I would stop at each aide station to try to clear my head but as soon as i started riding everything went south again. When I got back to LP, I talked to family and they urged me to go to the med tent. The doc examed me for a whole 30 seconds and then took my chip. She made the right call because I was totally out of it.
Good you were pulled out...that's what team doctors do for pro athletes on sports teams who have had their head's rung pretty hard...athlete always insists they are good to go! Congrats on Kona. In my case, even if I wanted to, I'd have no option of continuing, as my bike was snapped in half, there was blood everywhere, and several broken bones at play. I'm seeing some pretty good medical folks who do all the head injuries for the Ottawa Senators Pro Hockey team, and have to go through a weekly battery of neural/cognitive/balance/coordination tests. It sounds like yours was mild, so you probably don't need to be too careful, but head injuries are weird (this is my 4th), and post concussion symptoms can last for months or years...last round I was too aggressive too early and things dragged on from 2003 to the end of 2006...probably a few easier weeks up front would have been good. I don't know the extent of yours, but with Kona on the horizon, I know it would be very hard to hold back training....the only thing I can say is invest the time up front in down time.
Re: Mixed Wetsuit and Wetsuit Mass Start: Please post your experiences [JamieJ]
[ In reply to ]
either be consistent for everybody...or have an elite wave and a wetsuit wave if they want to leave things as they are. It shouldn't be such a big deal to do the latter option...and if getting more people to the starting line means having a wetsuit optional temperature range, so be it. just have different waves then. it's not a bad thing to encourage people to do an ironman.
How are you effected by that option?
How are you effected by that option?
Re: Mixed Wetsuit and Wetsuit Mass Start: Please post your experiences [devashish_paul]
[ In reply to ]
Hey Dev - I swam IMLP without a wetsuit this past weekend.
All of my OWS this summer have been 1:08 ~ 1:10ish, which is what I figured to go at LP with the draft.
I came in right under 1:20.
I swam out to the flags probably 25m or so from the dock.
Treaded water just fine for the first couple of minutes, then the wetsuits showed up.
Similar story to others - I got really confined and pushed around, none of which seemed intentional however.
It was really, really tight quarters in the last couple of minutes - I had to tread water pretty low just to be able to move my feet and hands - I found it much easier to do more of a bob under and then out of the water than to try to keep my head up constantly.
I thought the start was pretty clean actually, it was a couple of minutes into the race when folks started coming over my back, forcing my legs down.
Again, it did not feel like a boxing match or any of this was intentional, it just seemed that in the jostle the wetsuit swimmer is going to win the battle of position - they were just way more on top of the water than I was - no way I was going to stay on top. On four or five occasions I was forced to vertical (with my feet down).
While I too think a much more black and white rule concerning wetsuit usage would be optimum, Under the current rules I think separating waves would be the best solution when wetsuits are not allowed for AG awards. Start pros earliest, then AG competitors, then everyone else at 7am - keeping the midnight cutoff for everyone.
I wonder if such a scenario would have more folks opting out of wetsuits?
All of my OWS this summer have been 1:08 ~ 1:10ish, which is what I figured to go at LP with the draft.
I came in right under 1:20.
I swam out to the flags probably 25m or so from the dock.
Treaded water just fine for the first couple of minutes, then the wetsuits showed up.
Similar story to others - I got really confined and pushed around, none of which seemed intentional however.
It was really, really tight quarters in the last couple of minutes - I had to tread water pretty low just to be able to move my feet and hands - I found it much easier to do more of a bob under and then out of the water than to try to keep my head up constantly.
I thought the start was pretty clean actually, it was a couple of minutes into the race when folks started coming over my back, forcing my legs down.
Again, it did not feel like a boxing match or any of this was intentional, it just seemed that in the jostle the wetsuit swimmer is going to win the battle of position - they were just way more on top of the water than I was - no way I was going to stay on top. On four or five occasions I was forced to vertical (with my feet down).
While I too think a much more black and white rule concerning wetsuit usage would be optimum, Under the current rules I think separating waves would be the best solution when wetsuits are not allowed for AG awards. Start pros earliest, then AG competitors, then everyone else at 7am - keeping the midnight cutoff for everyone.
I wonder if such a scenario would have more folks opting out of wetsuits?
Re: Mixed Wetsuit and Wetsuit Mass Start: Please post your experiences [TankBoy]
[ In reply to ]
TankBoy wrote:
Hey Dev - I swam IMLP without a wetsuit this past weekend. All of my OWS this summer have been 1:08 ~ 1:10ish, which is what I figured to go at LP with the draft.
I came in right under 1:20.
I swam out to the flags probably 25m or so from the dock.
Treaded water just fine for the first couple of minutes, then the wetsuits showed up.
Similar story to others - I got really confined and pushed around, none of which seemed intentional however.
It was really, really tight quarters in the last couple of minutes - I had to tread water pretty low just to be able to move my feet and hands - I found it much easier to do more of a bob under and then out of the water than to try to keep my head up constantly.
I thought the start was pretty clean actually, it was a couple of minutes into the race when folks started coming over my back, forcing my legs down.
Again, it did not feel like a boxing match or any of this was intentional, it just seemed that in the jostle the wetsuit swimmer is going to win the battle of position - they were just way more on top of the water than I was - no way I was going to stay on top. On four or five occasions I was forced to vertical (with my feet down).
While I too think a much more black and white rule concerning wetsuit usage would be optimum, Under the current rules I think separating waves would be the best solution when wetsuits are not allowed for AG awards. Start pros earliest, then AG competitors, then everyone else at 7am - keeping the midnight cutoff for everyone.
I wonder if such a scenario would have more folks opting out of wetsuits?
Someone else mentioned this, but I'd consider the option of a "Kona hopeful" wave that goes at 8:30 or 9:00. There would be a lot more traffic on the bike and run, but presumably thinned out by the time the faster racers started overtaking. Personally, I think it's great that Ironman is for everyone, but I'd rather toe the line directly with the people I'm competing against. Rather like the elite amateur division. WTC could even require a qualifying time in a half-distance race (although they'd probably insist it be a WTC 70.3....)
Downside would be a huge gap between the pros and first amateur finishers.
But letting Kona hopefuls (with different wetsuit criteria) start even 10 minutes before everyone else would certainly improve crowding in the swim.
Re: Mixed Wetsuit and Wetsuit Mass Start: Please post your experiences [devashish_paul]
[ In reply to ]
My experience was similar to most. Expected to be around 1:05 with a wetsuit, but swam without one.Thinking I would do around 1:10. Started halfway out from the dock, second row. I was absolutely pummeled the first lap. Additionally, was pushed down a couple of times and you just don't bounce up the same as with neoprene. Did the first lap in 34 plus change and thought the second lap would be better. Unfortunately, I fought calf cramps the entire second lap. Only a theory, but I think it was because of so much more kicking to keep body position and prevent people from passing me who would normally be in the rear view mirror. Out of the water in 1:15. No whining here, I still had a great day, but it was a little tough seeing how crowded T1 and the first half loop of the bike was. Passed a lot of people that I would have been out of the water in front of. IMHO, a two wave start would have helped a lot, but then again, part of IM is that mass combat start.
Re: Mixed Wetsuit and Wetsuit Mass Start: Please post your experiences [devashish_paul]
[ In reply to ]
Possibly the US and WTC need to look to Australia for guidance
Triathlon Australia's Rulebook
2.4
The temperature limits for the use of wetsuits and maximum time to be in the water for the varying swim distances are as follows:
A
Distance | Forbidden Above | Mandatory Below | Maximum Time
Up to1500m | 20o C | 14o C | 30 minutes
1501m – 3000m | 23o C | 15o C |1 hour 40 mins
3001m and above | 24o C | 16o C | 2 hours 15 minshttp://www.triathlon.org.au/...ompetition+Rules.pdf
Trust me - when it gets warm, wetsuit = no start.
Triathlon Australia's Rulebook
2.4
The temperature limits for the use of wetsuits and maximum time to be in the water for the varying swim distances are as follows:
A
Code:
Elite, Under-23, Open and Junior competitors Distance | Forbidden Above | Mandatory Below | Maximum Time
Up to1500m | 20o C | 14o C | 30 minutes
1501m – 3000m | 23o C | 15o C |1 hour 40 mins
3001m and above | 24o C | 16o C | 2 hours 15 mins
Trust me - when it gets warm, wetsuit = no start.
Re: Mixed Wetsuit and Wetsuit Mass Start: Please post your experiences [Cape_Horn]
[ In reply to ]
Cape_Horn wrote:
Possibly the US and WTC need to look to Australia for guidance Triathlon Australia's Rulebook
2.4
The temperature limits for the use of wetsuits and maximum time to be in the water for the varying swim distances are as follows:
A
Code:
Elite, Under-23, Open and Junior competitors Distance | Forbidden Above | Mandatory Below | Maximum Time
Up to1500m | 20o C | 14o C | 30 minutes
1501m – 3000m | 23o C | 15o C |1 hour 40 mins
3001m and above | 24o C | 16o C | 2 hours 15 mins
http://www.triathlon.org.au/...ompetition+Rules.pdf
Trust me - when it gets warm, wetsuit = no start.
But, but ,but,but, we know that the US triathletes are so much leaner than those fatty Aussies so they need a warmer cutoff than the Aussies;)
Genetics load the gun, lifestyle pulls the trigger.
Re: Mixed Wetsuit and Wetsuit Mass Start: Please post your experiences [deh20]
[ In reply to ]
I agree -- and I only recently experienced this aggressive style of swimming.
Who pulls feet? How is that remotely acceptable? I guess I can see how swimming over people is a result of a crowded start, pulling feet is jack*ssery.
__________
"At the end he was staggering into parked cars and accusing his support-van driver of trying to poison him." A description of John Dunbar in the 1st Hawaii Iron Man
Who pulls feet? How is that remotely acceptable? I guess I can see how swimming over people is a result of a crowded start, pulling feet is jack*ssery.
__________
"At the end he was staggering into parked cars and accusing his support-van driver of trying to poison him." A description of John Dunbar in the 1st Hawaii Iron Man