I'd be hard pressed to say IMTX was physical because of the wetsuit/non mixing together, rather than it was physical because of being very narrow.
Either way I guess having a delayed wetsuit wave would help, maybe significantly for the fast swimmers.

My experience at TX was a negative one...lots of contact throughout the swim mostly with wetsuit clad swimmers for me...not just occasional touching of the toes but a constant hammering of the calves and lower legs, so that there was no way to get any rhythm, and no way to kick...

I feel strongly the 2 groups don't belong on the same course at the same time, based on my experience, and the reports of others.

If you want to wear a wetsuit, you get to start at 7:15, but the clock starts for your time at 7, (and you get until midnight to finish). I think such a time penalty is reasonable...heck let 'em be eligible for awards...so long as they serve their 15 minute penalty before the race.

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Coach at KonaCoach Multisport

I fail to see how it's any worse to be "pummelled" by athletes wearing wetsuits than not. Is it any less safe than everyone leaving at the same time with everyone either wearing wetsuits or not?

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Aerodynamics are for people who can't build engines. -Enzo Ferrari

I'm curious as to the times people are swimming. I mean, I swim about an hour, so I'd be lined up in front. Would there be wetsuits around me? I'd hope not. And if there were, I'd be sure to tell them they didn't belong there.

Wetsuits in a non wetsuit legal race should start in the way back. If you're wearing a wetsuit I assume it's because you're a slower swimmer, and that's where you should be anyway,

Thanks for posting. Please forward the link to friends so we have some decent feedback to forward. I like your suggestion of the 15 min delta (and time penalty).

The problem is that there are many slow swimmers who are amazing bike+run athletes. These guys are still competing for positions in their age group, but are getting pummelled by people who are not competing for age group position or kona slots. Yes, you can say "HTFU" and learn to swim, but the bottom line is they all paid their $700 and deserve a fair race.

It would take much more effort to fend of 'attacks' without wearing a wetsuit, than with one (after all, they do aid in buoyancy). This is where it becomes unfair and a legit safety issue. While I have not been in this race situation, I support a staggered start, separating the two types of competitors.

I don't see how this is any different than an all wetsuit mass start. Can someone please elaborate?

At IMTX there were tons of wetsuit wearing guys right up at the start line and many of these guys swam just over an hour. The pictures of IMLP show very few if any wetsuit wearers up near the line. Were they cautioned to do this at Lake Placid? My take is that the quicker swimmers were harmed very little at Lake Placid but the slower ones took a beating.

Hugh

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Genetics load the gun, lifestyle pulls the trigger.

I'm with Jodi here. If mixed starts are brutal when say 50% of the field is wearing a wetsuit, then applying that same logic it must be MMA when it is 100% wetsuit legal.

Putting on a rubber suit does not make a person more agressive. My 2 cents.

My experience at IMCDA last year and this year were night and day. Last year I barely touched anyone, this year it was brutal for me on both loops, in fact I didnt get kicked in the face until the second loop. Both years the swim was wetsuit legal.

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I *heart* weak, dumb ass people...

OK, serious question - Did IMLP and IMTX have wave starts, or a group start?

The Muncie 70.3 had 14 waves. The temperature was 81 degrees. Anyone wearing a wetsuit was forced to start in the last wave, no exceptions. Several people complained at the athlete's brief and the WTC official and Race Director pretty much made fun of them for even considering a wetsuit.

Was this a Muncie decision or a WTC decision, and why isn't it done everywhere?

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"...the street finds its own uses for things"

Ok, sciguy....can we just agree to disagree right from the start!

Hope all is well with you.

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I *heart* weak, dumb ass people...

I was not at IMLP but at IMT there were plenty of people in the front row with wetsuits.

I had one of my better swims ever in a combined wetsuit, non-wetsuit swim. I did not notice that it was any rougher than any other swim I have done. I drafted a lot of guys in wetsuits actually, so in that respect, maybe they should be separated.

Chad

i wasn't there so i'm having a hard time understanding what the issue is here. what was the split between wetsuit people and non-wetsuit people? i would assume that there were more wetsuit people (if there weren't, then there were a lot of delusional people out there). assuming that it was 50/50, the first loop of the swim must have been extremely pleasant for the non-wetsuit people because it was the least crowded swim in probably 10 years. the start of the 2nd loop must have been even more pleasant with the field strung out and nobody on the course. i would assume that the lead non-wetsuit swimmers started hitting the 2-hour crowd somewhere in the middle of the out part of the second loop but swimming past the few stray beached whales should have been a non-issue for mid to low 50-minute swimmers. the last leg back after the second turn-around must have been much more congested but how much more congested was it than normal? is that what the issue is? i'd take having a good 60-75% of the swim relatively empty with a crowded last 25% over getting pummeled most of the way.

Hmmm, perhaps there's a lesson in this...

;)

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blood, sweat...and big gears

I hated every minute of training, but I said, ''Don't quit. Suffer now and live the rest of your life as a champion.''
- Muhammad Ali

A wetsuit should be there to keep you reasonably warm in chilly water, unfortunately it has become a crutch for people who can't swim to save their life. If you can't swim without a wetsuit then maybe you should consider whether you should be doing an ironman to begin with. Frankly I am a hell of a lot more comfortable without the wetsuit.

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Fit Endurance Coaching - Head Coach|Facebook
USAT L1 Coach | BikeFit Certified Fitter | Contributing Writer - Triathlete Magazine | ROKA

Instead of the 15 minute delay for wetsuit swimmers, how about you all start at once, but wetsuit swimmers are not allowed to put their wetsuit on until after the gun. If it's an in-water start, they have the choice of standing on shore, or trying to put the wetsuit on while in the water.

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Proud member of FISHTWITCH: doing a bit more than fish exercise now.

Dev, Thanks for starting this thread.

IMTX was an awful experience for many of us who went sans wetsuit. I personally took a beating from quite a few neoprene wearing swimmers. A lot of the problem is that the water clarity in Lake Woodlands is so poor that you would swim over someone before you would see them and the lake is not sufficient in size for 2500 participants. Now it might be the same if everyone was without a wetsuit because you still cannot see and the swim is tight. However, at least in my experience on that day, those in wetsuits were using it like 5mm of armor.

I live 15mins from The Woodlands and have signed up for IMMT next year primarily because I do not want to do that swim again.

From a perspective of participant safety and participant satisfaction WTC really should re-evaluate the mass start with mixed wetsuits.

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Jeff

It was very different for those not wearing suits. I often swim without my suit at our local tri club tuesday practice and am generally right around 2 minutes slower for a mile. The biggest difference is that the people who swim 2 minutes slower than I do with their suits are all around me when I do not wear it. In LP yesterday I was 10 feet back and 10 feet off the pier where I usually start. With about a minute to go it was so crowded there that I did not really even have room to tread water. Actually kinda scary. Those around me with suits on did not have that issue. The vast majority around me had suits on. The chaos at the start was har worse without a suit on. When you get swam over or your legs pushed down with a suit on they kinda pop back up. Without one you need to be swimming to stay vertical. When there is no room to take a real stroke it is hard to do that. Made it feel like you were drowning. Kinda sucked. The whole first loop was a lot more brutal for me. Lots of people that I normally would be able to swim away from were right with me the whole way. My first loop was 55:xx [about 3 minutes slower than I figure I would have been]. The second loop was still very crowded when in the past it had thinned out a lot by then. I guess I need to learn to swim better as a guy I know that swam 55 minutes without a suit had no real issues at all ;-)

It really changed the whole race though. A huge difference was that transition and the beginning of the bike was far more crowded than it has been. You had lots of very fast riders who essentially had about a 5 minute swim penalty riding through the field. I feel like I was passing people the entire first loop. After the first loop of the ride it was all sorted out and back to what I would have expected. Had a great day though so hard to complain too much.

Hard to adequately describe but it was all very different. More than I would have thought. I was not the only one who felt that way last night at the pub.

 "athletes can chose to wear a legal wetsuit in water temperatures between 24.5 degrees Celsius/76.1 degrees Fahrenheit and 28.8 degrees Celsius/ 83.8 degrees Fahrenheit, with the understanding that they will not be eligible for awards and/or World Championship slots."

Originally from: http://ironman.com/...lesfaq#ixzz1T9sBgPiV

What was the water temp at IMLP? Are you proposing waves for every race in water temperatures between 24.5 degrees Celsius/76.1 degrees Fahrenheit and 28.8 degrees Celsius/ 83.8 degrees Fahrenheit?

What is your criteria for "quicker swimmers"? I have 3 friends who swam in the 57s and 58s w/out wetties and their comment was:

"We were smack dab in the melee. It was the most miserable part of the day. It was not safe at all and it lasted throughout most of the swim. It is not an experience we would ever choose to repeat. Two waves is a good idea. "

I think you misunderstand my take on the subject take a look at this thread:

http://forum.slowtwitch.com/..._reply;so=ASC;mh=28;

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Genetics load the gun, lifestyle pulls the trigger.

okay well there are a few key differences:

1. People who you would normally be ahead of are in your grill - artificial bunching of swimmers
2. The non wetsuit swimmer will fatigue faster, so after 20 minutes or so when the legs start to fall and the pace slows, the fresher wetsuit swimmer is now on top of you, and the one behind him etc. So even though you are the "better" swimmer, you've actually created a log jam.
3. The non wetsuit swimmer also has to tread water in a deep water start for up to 10 minutes...contributes to the fatigue.

I think we've all experienced the melee of the mass start, which generally clears itself out in 10 minutes...the key difference with the mixing of wetties and nons is that it never clears out...back to the fatigue and slowing hypothesis.

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Coach at KonaCoach Multisport