Dev

I did IMLP this past Sun, I went sans wetsuit. I'm a sub 1hr guy, 52:XX in LP several years ago and 54-55 min @ IMFL past few years. The swim was a shit show, I was on the line in about 50M and then proceeded to get the shit knocked out of me for the remainder of the 1st leg. I think WTC should stop being afraid about offending the ones who are afraid to swim without a suit. I think at the end of the day WTC is a business and they are concerned about filling the races and not to make people afraid of "god forbid" swimming without a wetsuit..

This nonsense of starting everyone together just makes it that much harder on those going without, for all the reasons in prior posts. In addition WTC lets you know, your time will count as an official time???? HUH??? You have to be aware going into this that there is a shot that you will go without, and we all train in the pool without.

Last but not least.. I don't like the fact that the people who used wetsuits are still in the official results with no notation next to their names

Scott

dev, why don't you focus on changing the 76 degree rule to a more reasonable 78 or 79? 76 degrees is too cold for many fit people with low body fat percentages. if the concern is overheating and safety, how many people with wetsuits on on sunday overheated? my guess is next to none. how many were freezing and quasi hypothermic? at least one on this thread and i know one pro last year who was.

Dev,
Thanks for doing this. My experience in Texas was also a nasty one. It was a day in which I did get my Kona slot but coming out of the water I can tell you I was already digging out of a hole I am not accustomed to when racing. While swimming is my limiter and I can say I did not pick the best spot to start, I got the snot kicked out of me. I expect to get knocked around, kicked, and punched but normally it ends at some point. I struggle to recall any point during the first 2k where I was able to get my legs up and in a good body position.What I do recall was the amount of rubber I battled. If I were in charge (and I am not) I would have separate wave starts for those wishing to wear wetsuits. By their decision, they are not eligible for awards and kona slots so why allow them to impact those who are racing for them.



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Robert Flanigan

Hi Mag900....personally I'd be very cold in 76 water for over an hour but probably be just OK as long as I was not get punched along the way. I'd personally rather have a universal cutoff at say 78 or 79, but as I said to Fleck, I'm not willing to take up that battle and I'll explain why. I don't believe WTC/USAT would lower the "no wetsuit at all" to 78 or 79. They set it at 80 something because they know that those who need wetsuits as a crutch can still do the swim reasonably safely without overheating while "competitors" will really have to compete at 76. In their mind, this the best of both worlds, maximizing revenue, while having a true "competition".

Having said that the "competition" is being severely impacted by the "maximizing revenue" attendees in wetsuit. I'd rather focus on affecting things that I can easily change, which is the implementation of the existing set of rules. I don't really have the time to push on USAT/WTC to change the rules. I'll leave that to guys like Fleck.

Zack, great race given the circumstances and your recent sidelining with the broken clavicle. Nice job by you and your caoch!!! Thanks for sharing your account. One of the guys in my training group who is normally a 68-69 minute guy spent the entire swim in the scenario you described....he never got out to the open and was with the 1:20 crowd feeling what you did for 4 legs instead of 1 leg.

Having said that the "competition" is being severely impacted by the "maximizing revenue" attendees in wetsuit. I'd rather focus on affecting things that I can easily change, which is the implementation of the existing set of rules. I don't really have the time to push on USAT/WTC to change the rules. I'll leave that to guys like Fleck.


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But which is more important to the RD/WTC? Competition or the "maximizing revenue" crowd. You said something like WTC needs 1k "new" people at every race, or else it would all dry up rather quickly. I dont see how they would implement rules that would potential damage that class of people.

Was your solution the 2 seperate starts with wetsuit swims an later swim start?

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@brooksdoughtie
USAT-L2,Y&J; USAC-L2
http://www.aomultisport.com

Correct, I don't think WTC wants to jeopardize revenue from the "maximize revenue" group, so I'm not really interested in fighting the two tiers of when wetsuit can be used. I just want to provide feedback on how the 2 groups can be fairly and safely separated, without really affecting race day logistics for the local RD and the timing crew. I think collecting personal experiences will help provide some ammunition.

Also in the other thread it was mentioned that Kona slot allocation was based on total starters, not wetsuit finishers per age group. That too seems dramatically unfair to groups with a larger percent of non wetsuit folks compared to their wetsuit percentage.

I am a 1:15 swimmer with a wetsuit. I agree with the other poster that around 1:10 to 1:15 there was a ton of open water. I had my best IMLP swim of my three races here. There was a ton of open water 10-25 feet off the buoys. I also swam probably 100 or more meters, but that was my choice to avoid the contact.

I have a different suggestion. I noticed almost every non wetsuit swimmer I was with in the water was shivering before the cannon went off. Why not move the temperature back up to 78 or even 80 for a wetsuit swim. If it is above that then no one wears one. I swam one loop (2000 meters) two days before the race without a wetsuit and I really took me a while to warm up, thus the reason I went with a wetsuit on race day. My two cents is to raise the temperature limit and keep it the same for everyone.
With that being said, at least at IMLP you have the choice of staying wide and having clean water. I can't speak for other 140.6 events though.

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Twitter: @ironman726

Ah yeah this is a great thread. I guess I'm just playing devils advocate in a few things:

1. I dont see WTC changing this "midnight" cutoff. They seem hell bent on it, so yeah let's assume they wont change that.

2. I'd be curious to see the actual numbers of wetsuit vs non-wetsuit. If we make seperate waves (which I have no clue how you cant make seperate waves to solve this issue), would those X number of wetsuit swimmers be ok with only getting 16:30 to finish the course (or 16:45, etc).

Edit: But let's be honest, as someone else put it....Is it really the wetsuit that is the issue or the number of athletes on the course? (Which all goes back to a numbers game and $$$)

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@brooksdoughtie
USAT-L2,Y&J; USAC-L2
http://www.aomultisport.com

That's the way it works at IM Louisville for the last people to get in the water...............

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Pink? Maybe. Maybe not. You decide.

Does anyone know when we will see the list of wetsuit versus non-wetsuit for IMLP? I really want to see my placement in AG with other non-wetsuit athletes.

The guy in my training group who I referred to a bit earlier was 11:30 in 45-49, but went no wetsuit as a challenge to himself, and ended up 24th in 45-49. Aparently the no wetsuit results were up onsite yesterday.

Yes while you are right in that it's a time trial start, but it's also basically the participants have the "choice" of how much time they lose on the clock (so if you dont care, you dont get in line early), whereas at IM LP with the proposed wave starts, it's either/or. Get 17 hours or lose 30 mins with wetsuit. Not sure how that will go well with potential customers. (Notice how IM Lou doesnt sell out very quickly vs other IM's).

AT IMLP, the guy who wants 17 hours can get 17 hours at IM Lou by getting 1st in line. Whereas here in LP, if they do the wave start, he wont get 17 hours.


Now I think this is a non-issue for ST people (or atlest those people wont admit it in this community setting). I just think if WTC's "goal" is to worry about maximizing profits, I dont see how they would do that with implementing an wave start that had a built in penalty (especially if alot of WTC's money is from the "1st" timers).

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@brooksdoughtie
USAT-L2,Y&J; USAC-L2
http://www.aomultisport.com

All this begs the question...

Why did WTC choose to adopt a new rule (76.1 degrees) that differs from USAT's 78 degree rule? I know the official line was to place further emphasis on performance and not technology but I don't see that working out at all for them or anyone else.

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Favorite Gear: Dimond | Cadex | Desoto Sport | Hoka One One

But will it be available online as well? There should be a way to tell in the results for all whether the swim was done with or without wetsuit. I'm not faulting people that did wear a wetsuit, but it was a different race for those that went without when they were expecting to wear one. It would be nice just to know where we ranked.

At IMLP with the 2 loop swim, a 30 min delta is not an option. It would need to be 10-15 min MAX as the lead no wetsuit swimmers would be back in 25 minutes and it would be absolute mayhem trying to start at second wave at 30 minutes just when the bulk of swimmers are starting to coming by.

The results book will differentiate between the two. Take a look at the IMTX results book: http://c26440.r40.cf1.rackcdn.com/...as-Results-Book1.pdf

Everyone is listed in the overall results and the overall gender results. Only the non-wetsuit folks are listed in the AG results. My name is listed in the overall results, the overall male results but not the M40-44 results.

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Favorite Gear: Dimond | Cadex | Desoto Sport | Hoka One One

I did IMTX as my first full IM. Sorry, no suggestions for a solution, but I didn't like the "mixed" swim. I'm a slow swimmer, but I knew I could do the distance well within the cutoff time. I did a lot of open-water practice, and I've done enough tri's that I'm used to the contact and can handle it (although swimming with the guys was a new experience!) I didn't wear a wetsuit, and due to a last-minute run back to the port-a-potty line, I was one of the people still in line on shore when the gun went off. I got in about 35-40 seconds later, took two strokes, and got hung up in a buoy line that I never saw - it was being pushed under water by all the swimmers going over it. I instantly had a guy in a wetsuit go right over my back, followed by a couple more who went partially over/partly around me -- my first thought was that I was going to drown before I even started. I didn't really see how the wetsuit swimmers were directed into the water, so I'm not sure if it was my late start that put me out there in the middle of the swarm of wetsuits, or if there was just too much chaos and the two lines fell apart, but I was surrounded by wetsuits and had a full-contact swim most of the time. I've done 4 half-IMs, all with wetsuits, in 40-50 min (40 before shoulder surgery, 50 after), and my IMTX swim time was 1:43. I got beat on steadily, but I never felt that I was in danger (other than when I took one solid punch to my head), but I never felt that I really got to swim, either. Being a BOP swimmer, even if the wetsuit swimmers had a delayed start, they would have caught me, but maybe not in such a pack??

As someone who has never done a mixed mass start, and being fully aware that this makes me a Monday morning quarterback, these descriptions of the start scare the shit out of me.

Louisville doesn't sell out quickly because people are afraid of the heat and humidity just like St George doesn't sell out because it is "hard".

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Pink? Maybe. Maybe not. You decide.

Thanks for the heads up. BTW, there were a ton of EN athletes out there. And Tri Life folks, holy crap, they were every where.

As been said by me and others, I thought the claustrophobic nature of the IMTX swim course was more to blame for the contact than anything else. Mixing wetsuits and non-wetsuits probably kept everyone more jammed together as well.

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Favorite Gear: Dimond | Cadex | Desoto Sport | Hoka One One

I think there were 38 EN athletes at IMLP. Coach P snagged one of the M35-39 Kona slots.

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Favorite Gear: Dimond | Cadex | Desoto Sport | Hoka One One

The solution seems simple to me.

A few years ago when the race was the US Pro Championship for the Womens, they started the women at 6:25 to ensure a clean and fair race. If the WTC (IMNA?) continues to allow non-wetsuit swimmers to compete alongside wetsuit swimmers, they should send the pros off at 6:25, and the non-wetsuit swimmers off at 6:40. Then you let the wetsuit swimmers who are out there just to finish to start at 7 and still have the midnight cutoff which doesn't mean anything to the non-wetsuit wearers anyway.

Or the WTC can do this again, mixing non-wetsuit wearers with wetsuit wearers, and 3rd time being the charm, someone will die.

what's your 1500 pr in the pool?

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http://en.wikipedia.org/...eoesophageal_fistula
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cerebral_palsy
2020 National Masters Champion - M40-44 - 400m IM
Canadian Record Holder 35-39M & 40-44M - 200 m Butterfly (LCM)

I agree it compresses the field which then causes problems on the bike by having people bunched up who don't belong together.

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http://en.wikipedia.org/...eoesophageal_fistula
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cerebral_palsy
2020 National Masters Champion - M40-44 - 400m IM
Canadian Record Holder 35-39M & 40-44M - 200 m Butterfly (LCM)