Because the good thing about rules is that there's so many of them, so you can pick whichever you like :-) Case in point: the ITU rule is different again (http://www.triathlon.org/...n-rules_20110222.pdf, page 12): 24*C for a 4000m swim, which is 75.2F.

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Citizen of the world, former drunkard. Resident Traumatic Brain Injury advocate.

I swam without a wetsuit sunday, and agree on all points.
There were plenty of wetsuit swimmers near the front. The scariest part for me was being pushed down without the wetsuit. Not that it doesn't happen on non wetsuit swims, but I think people are more aware of the lack of bouyancy when not wearing one. It felt like I was riding my bike though nyc with a bunch of drunk drivers in suv's. Swam slower and ended up on the bike where it was pretty packed out. I think separating wetsuit and non would be a good thing.

:-)

This didn't seem to be a problem when the WTC rule was the same as USAT. All they did was create a solution to a problem that didn't exist.

That stated, IMTX water temp was like 78.8 so I guess the same issue would have happened either way.

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Favorite Gear: Dimond | Cadex | Desoto Sport | Hoka One One

I'm truly amazed no one got seriously injured this year. Is there anyway to see a list of all medical treatments at races? Just statistics, we don't need names. I'm curious where the spikes are, but I'm guessing dehydration.

I actually had a huge grin on my face when they announced the no-wetsuit ruling that morning. We dared the WTC to jump and they finally did. Funny that it happens at Lake Placid and not at a lot of places South of the Adirondacks!

For some perspective, in 2010 IMLP, 23 people finished between 16:45 and 17:00, so the 15 minute change you are discussing would have greatly improved the swim (based on these reports) for a very large group of Kona competitors, and negatively impacted the race for only the 23 people finishing between 16:45 and 17:00 (and they could have chosen to go non-wetsuit if they thought the 17 hours was going to be an issue). Further, the 15 minute spread would also benefit all competitors by marginally lowering congestion at the various choke points on the course.

No, I wasn't there. No, I've never done an IM.

Dev, you're an engineer type guy, so maybe you can explain where I'm missing things here. I'm just trying to understand.

For a typical IM wetsuit swim, there'll be some kind of bell-curve distribution of swimming speeds. A few really fast, most slower, and a few really slow. Take away the wetsuits, and it seems to me that you'll have a similar bell-curve, with the peak (most swimmers) shifted to the slower speed end of the graph. The better swimmers will move less than the lesser swimmers. Give some of the weaker swimmers back their wetsuits, and some of the bell-curve shifts back to the faster end of the graph. The result is that the faster swimmers will have a little more crowding than if nobody wore wetsuits, but not much less than if everyone had wetsuits.

For the high point on each of those curves, you'll have similar crowding. It seems to me that the only issue here is that there are some people who were in places on the curve that had more crowding than that to which they were accustomed. It seems to me that this could happen independent of wetsuits, given a slightly different distribution of swimmer speeds on a given day.

Am I correct in believing that nothing would have been different if you had replaced every wetsuit swimmer with a non-wetsuit swimmer going the same speed? That seems obvious. Were the wetsuit swimmers behaving differently than the non-wetsuit swimmers, other than being in a different part of the crowd?

Can you summarize what you think is the end result of mixing wetsuit and non-wetsuit swimmers?

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"Go yell at an M&M"

You are SO right Dev,as a now 61 year old woman who did Ironman texas for a Kona spot (got it by the way). I have to tell you that the swim for me was nothing short of BRUTAL. I'm small anyway, 112 lb with skinny arms, so if this was bad for larger people, imagine if you were my size. On top of being just brutal, I figure that it cost me 10 minutes on my swim time.

After texas, I did email the race director on this - all I received was a standard reply though - copied text from rules. (Which by the way had a higher wetsuit legal swim temperature than was imposed at Texas. Texas was particularly brutal due to the crowded swim start and final portion. Some common sense needs to be applied here. Under certain conditions: more room, less of a mass start , perhaps mixing wetsuit and non-wetsuit is ok. But not under crowded conditionss like texas with a large mass start, it is a VERY bad idea.

I also noticed that people who chose to wear wetsuits were not removed from the overall results. Personally, I like to see how well I do overall, as well as within my age group. And now, this informationis pretty invalid.

Let's say that you and I decide to fight. I get to wear protective gear and use a baseball bat, and you don't.

The swim is a fight. At Lake Placid, some people wore protective gear and used a baseball bat. Some didn't.

From a few comments above your reply:

The scariest part for me was being pushed down without the wetsuit. Not that it doesn't happen on non wetsuit swims, but I think people are more aware of the lack of bouyancy when not wearing one. It felt like I was riding my bike though nyc with a bunch of drunk drivers in suv's.

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@brooksdoughtie
USAT-L2,Y&J; USAC-L2
http://www.aomultisport.com

Sunday's non wetsuit swim was horrible in my opinion. As a 120 pound woman, attempting or at least competing for a spot AG/Kona, I cannot believe the utter insanity of what occured.
I am lucky to be here, as I was grabbed in the calf so hard, yanked down, swam over, and didn't have the buoyancy to get back up. I spent 15+ minutes on a paddle board with medical because my calf was so beat up, I have a bruise in the shape of a hand to show for it. I met girls in my same situation (not the 55-1:00 girls, but the 1:07-1:15 non wetsuit girls), and there were black eyes, busted up lips, etc. Not sure one of the girls I met, weighed more than me....in other words, pretty tiny compared to the 185 pound guy in the wetsuit trying to play water polo with our bodies.
As a Race Director, USAT NE Officer, and USAT AGC Member, I will be bringing this situation up....start the pros at 6:40, non wetsuit slot grabbers at 6:50, and others at 7:00, won't change the dynamics of the race, and allows it to be a bit cleaner and an actual true event.
Overall, I am thrilled I was able to rally back after what could have been a towel throw in of a day. Haven't seen a race from that vantage point....as I passed over 1100 people on the bike (btw, NICE draft packs out there....40+ at times during the first out and back section), and almost 500 on the run.
Anyway, just my two cents....and no, didn't get a Kona slot, and even had I had the perfect race, I would have missed by at least 2-3 slots. But a girl has got to try. :)

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Kat Donatello
2015 Betty Designs Team
RD, The Pumpkinman Triathlon Festival
http://www.pumpkinmantriathlon.com/

Are you saying that the people who wore wetsuits behave(d) differently than those who didn't wear wetsuits? I'm not disputing it, I'm trying to wrap my little brain around why that may be so. Or are you saying that there is a difference between getting smacked by someone wearing a wetsuit and by someone not wearing a wetsuit? Or, perhaps, that not wearing a wetsuit provides less protection against getting smacked independent of who is hitting you?

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"Go yell at an M&M"

Why did WTC choose to adopt a new rule (76.1 degrees) that differs from USAT's 78 degree rule? I know the official line was to place further emphasis on performance and not technology but I don't see that working out at all for them or anyone else.

That is the key question. Dev seems to think that my contributions here, my own ideas and the extensive consultations with the WTC and USAT don't matter. However, I'll continue to "pontificate", FWIW! ;-)

I'll tell you why they are different, for now, and also tell you that there are ongoing discussions going on behind the scenes. Stay tuned.

One of the WTC's concerns was regarding "over-heating" during the swim. I hear and encounter this a lot in the business of selling wetsuits - athletes worried about over-heating in 1/2 and full IM distance swims in warmer water on warm days. It's a valid concern, but hang in there for a bit. USAT stands on the ground I believe of one study that was done a long time ago on the effects of core temperature while swimming with a wetsuit in warmer water. What it found was that core temperature (the key metric here) varied little in warmer waters while wearing a wetsuit up to about that 78F mark. However, swimmers felt warmer. There is a perception that they are getting hotter. That's understood, as that thin film of water between the skin and the inside of the wetsuit is getting warmer - so you feel warmer, but even that warmer layer of water is still pulling heat away from the body, thus the core temperatures remain unchanged up to a certain point, which USAT seems to think is around 78F.

I have heard that USAT is looking into this and is looking at re-visiting the research to see if these numbers still stack up. Obviously, the WTC has moved forward on their own and applied for a dispensation, as they have in other areas that apply to their events.

Despite what Dev, says, I thought a bit of back-ground information would be helpful.

My personal opinion remains that same, but is influenced by the above. Mixing wetsuit and non-wetsuits is not optimal. Pick a number, whatever that is, and stick to it! No grey area. Either wetsuits are allowed or not allowed!

Hope this helps!

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Steve Fleck @stevefleck | Blog

Here is the scenario. You're in a 20' by 20' pool that is 20 feet deep, the deck and sides are electrified, so you can't get out. There are 100 people in the pool with you and they are all wearing life vests. Everyone is panicking and flailing around. You don't have a life vest.

All of a sudden a narrow door is open to the pool letting everyone to leave the pool single file, but everyone is in a rush to get out of the pool. Again, they have life vests, you don't. You can't get in front of the guys in front of you and the guys in back of you are panicking to get out so they climb over you.

I think that is what you are missing. The frenzy and the emotions.

We chose not to were a wetsuit to race and compete, not just to finish. Our goals were to post results to qualify for Kona or Podium. If you wore a wetsuit, you did not choose this path. Therefore, the extra bit of time to start wouldn't affect you since this was not part of your plan/goal.

I take NOTHING away from anyone that used a suit. 2.4 miles is still a long way away. However, it was a different race between the wetsuit and non-wetsuit athletes. Just like elite and pro's are in a different race than the rest of us (same course, same environment, but they are only racing each other, not the ager groupers), those that elected to try for a qualifying time were in a race against each other, not the wetsuit athletes. I'm not mad or upset with anyone that wore a wetsuit, but I was shocked at the mayhem when combining the 2 types of athletes. I hope WTC makes some changes to this for the future. Someone will get badly hurt or worse if this doesn't change.

21:59 scy

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Eric Reid AeroFit | Instagram Portfolio
Aerodynamic Retul Bike Fitting

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76 for over an hour is way too cold for many/most fit/thin people, particularly when you include 10-15 minutes of treading water. bumping the ceiling to 78/79 basically would make imlp a wetsuit race every year, which it should be due to the massive overcrowding. is it going to take either a drowning victim or someone who suffers severe hypothermia and sues WTC before it raises its unreasonable ceiling to a more reasonable temperature?

I was not there. What I am trying to figure out, is this really about a wet suit vrs no wet suit issue or are there just to many people in to small of a piece of water at the same time. Tim

Not directly related to your point as it was a wetsuit swim for all, but IM Germany has a wave for faster AG-ers that started with the Pros. AG-ers just had to apply to be part of it. Given that as I'm a 66m swimmer and caught some of them, they were not all good swimmers. So the precedent is there for having separate waves.

The wetsuit people were taken out of the results which were on the table at the roll down. They only had the top 50 in each AG. Did not see a comprehensive list. I went from 12 to 10 when they were taken out. Seems like the experience of just about everyone was the same. Very odd to have such a consensus here in ST land.

What I seem to be missing is the difference that everyone else wearing a life vest makes. It's not that they are wearing life vests, it's that you aren't that is the cause of concern. If you remove the strikethrough text, is your scenario still correct?

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"Go yell at an M&M"

I dont know if the wetsuit athletes acted any differently, but the effect it has on non-wetsuit swimmers changes. When i wear a wetsuit and get knocked or pulled I bounce right back up. Without a wetsuit,if you cannot kick because of being grabbed it changes from swimming to staying afloat. Now, it wasnt as if this happened the entire 2.4 miles, but 6 or 7 times throughout the course. To clarify, I am not talking about a brush of the feet or being hit on your side. I am talking about, having your calf grabbed and used as a lever for propulsion. I remember two disctict times I felt i was swimming for my life around the turn buoys. I went under both times and getting back to surface seemed like being trapped under ice.

There is no doubt in my mind that i should have stayed somewhat wide. I have learned that lesson. I finished the swim in 1:16.

and the bike course sucks. and the ohio river etc.

I was there with about 5 friends who were racing. I have heard all of their stories. I have also been to LP for a number of years and heard all of the other stories. I have not done LP and may never given the swim. It sounds here like everyone is trying to place blame or find reason for a bad swim experience on wetsuit vs non-wetsuit. Here are a few thoughts of mine.
What I'm hearing is this, swimming with 2500 other people without a wetsuit on in a tiny lake sucks. What is the difference if everyone has a wetsuit vs not having a wetsuit? Are you saying that had everyone not had a wetsuit on then you wouldn't have been touched? Or submerged? Or bumped? I think not. It would have still happened as there are too many people in one small space. Getting dunked by someone in a wetsuit vs someone not in a wetsuit is the same, you still go under and it's still hard to come up when you're not wearing one. The issue that needs resolution is the fact that they are saying one group qualifies and one group doesn't. Just raise the temp and let everyone wear a wetsuit regardless, problem solved. Or at least argument solved. The problem will still be there. There will still be complaints about bad swims at LP, there has been for years, way too many people in too small a space.
And for those of you who say stupid shit like don't sign up if you can't swim without a wetsuit, stop being an asshole. There are many factors that go into wearing a wetsuit vs not wearing one.

Again, what you describe is due to your not wearing a wetsuit: whether the others were wearing wetsuits didn't matter.

It sounds more and more like "too many swimmers, not enough water." The fact that the field was compressed (faster swimmers don't wear wetsuits and go a bit slower, slower swimmers wear wetsuits and go a lot faster) exacerbated the known problem.

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"Go yell at an M&M"

huh. @ 153 I would much rather swim in 75 than 78 or more. I say use the xterra rule of 73.
jamie

A large issue at LP, is the fight over the "small piece of water" next to the underwater lane line. Everyone fights for that to eliminate the need to sight