I'd be hard pressed to say IMTX was physical because of the wetsuit/non mixing together, rather than it was physical because of being very narrow.
Either way I guess having a delayed wetsuit wave would help, maybe significantly for the fast swimmers.

My experience at TX was a negative one...lots of contact throughout the swim mostly with wetsuit clad swimmers for me...not just occasional touching of the toes but a constant hammering of the calves and lower legs, so that there was no way to get any rhythm, and no way to kick...

I feel strongly the 2 groups don't belong on the same course at the same time, based on my experience, and the reports of others.

If you want to wear a wetsuit, you get to start at 7:15, but the clock starts for your time at 7, (and you get until midnight to finish). I think such a time penalty is reasonable...heck let 'em be eligible for awards...so long as they serve their 15 minute penalty before the race.

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Coach at KonaCoach Multisport

I fail to see how it's any worse to be "pummelled" by athletes wearing wetsuits than not. Is it any less safe than everyone leaving at the same time with everyone either wearing wetsuits or not?

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Aerodynamics are for people who can't build engines. -Enzo Ferrari

I'm curious as to the times people are swimming. I mean, I swim about an hour, so I'd be lined up in front. Would there be wetsuits around me? I'd hope not. And if there were, I'd be sure to tell them they didn't belong there.

Wetsuits in a non wetsuit legal race should start in the way back. If you're wearing a wetsuit I assume it's because you're a slower swimmer, and that's where you should be anyway,

Thanks for posting. Please forward the link to friends so we have some decent feedback to forward. I like your suggestion of the 15 min delta (and time penalty).

The problem is that there are many slow swimmers who are amazing bike+run athletes. These guys are still competing for positions in their age group, but are getting pummelled by people who are not competing for age group position or kona slots. Yes, you can say "HTFU" and learn to swim, but the bottom line is they all paid their $700 and deserve a fair race.

It would take much more effort to fend of 'attacks' without wearing a wetsuit, than with one (after all, they do aid in buoyancy). This is where it becomes unfair and a legit safety issue. While I have not been in this race situation, I support a staggered start, separating the two types of competitors.

I don't see how this is any different than an all wetsuit mass start. Can someone please elaborate?

At IMTX there were tons of wetsuit wearing guys right up at the start line and many of these guys swam just over an hour. The pictures of IMLP show very few if any wetsuit wearers up near the line. Were they cautioned to do this at Lake Placid? My take is that the quicker swimmers were harmed very little at Lake Placid but the slower ones took a beating.

Hugh

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Genetics load the gun, lifestyle pulls the trigger.

I'm with Jodi here. If mixed starts are brutal when say 50% of the field is wearing a wetsuit, then applying that same logic it must be MMA when it is 100% wetsuit legal.

Putting on a rubber suit does not make a person more agressive. My 2 cents.

My experience at IMCDA last year and this year were night and day. Last year I barely touched anyone, this year it was brutal for me on both loops, in fact I didnt get kicked in the face until the second loop. Both years the swim was wetsuit legal.

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I *heart* weak, dumb ass people...

OK, serious question - Did IMLP and IMTX have wave starts, or a group start?

The Muncie 70.3 had 14 waves. The temperature was 81 degrees. Anyone wearing a wetsuit was forced to start in the last wave, no exceptions. Several people complained at the athlete's brief and the WTC official and Race Director pretty much made fun of them for even considering a wetsuit.

Was this a Muncie decision or a WTC decision, and why isn't it done everywhere?

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"...the street finds its own uses for things"

Ok, sciguy....can we just agree to disagree right from the start!

Hope all is well with you.

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I *heart* weak, dumb ass people...

I was not at IMLP but at IMT there were plenty of people in the front row with wetsuits.

I had one of my better swims ever in a combined wetsuit, non-wetsuit swim. I did not notice that it was any rougher than any other swim I have done. I drafted a lot of guys in wetsuits actually, so in that respect, maybe they should be separated.

Chad

i wasn't there so i'm having a hard time understanding what the issue is here. what was the split between wetsuit people and non-wetsuit people? i would assume that there were more wetsuit people (if there weren't, then there were a lot of delusional people out there). assuming that it was 50/50, the first loop of the swim must have been extremely pleasant for the non-wetsuit people because it was the least crowded swim in probably 10 years. the start of the 2nd loop must have been even more pleasant with the field strung out and nobody on the course. i would assume that the lead non-wetsuit swimmers started hitting the 2-hour crowd somewhere in the middle of the out part of the second loop but swimming past the few stray beached whales should have been a non-issue for mid to low 50-minute swimmers. the last leg back after the second turn-around must have been much more congested but how much more congested was it than normal? is that what the issue is? i'd take having a good 60-75% of the swim relatively empty with a crowded last 25% over getting pummeled most of the way.

Hmmm, perhaps there's a lesson in this...

;)

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blood, sweat...and big gears

I hated every minute of training, but I said, ''Don't quit. Suffer now and live the rest of your life as a champion.''
- Muhammad Ali

A wetsuit should be there to keep you reasonably warm in chilly water, unfortunately it has become a crutch for people who can't swim to save their life. If you can't swim without a wetsuit then maybe you should consider whether you should be doing an ironman to begin with. Frankly I am a hell of a lot more comfortable without the wetsuit.

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Fit Endurance Coaching - Head Coach|Facebook
USAT L1 Coach | BikeFit Certified Fitter | Contributing Writer - Triathlete Magazine | ROKA

Instead of the 15 minute delay for wetsuit swimmers, how about you all start at once, but wetsuit swimmers are not allowed to put their wetsuit on until after the gun. If it's an in-water start, they have the choice of standing on shore, or trying to put the wetsuit on while in the water.

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Proud member of FISHTWITCH: doing a bit more than fish exercise now.

Dev, Thanks for starting this thread.

IMTX was an awful experience for many of us who went sans wetsuit. I personally took a beating from quite a few neoprene wearing swimmers. A lot of the problem is that the water clarity in Lake Woodlands is so poor that you would swim over someone before you would see them and the lake is not sufficient in size for 2500 participants. Now it might be the same if everyone was without a wetsuit because you still cannot see and the swim is tight. However, at least in my experience on that day, those in wetsuits were using it like 5mm of armor.

I live 15mins from The Woodlands and have signed up for IMMT next year primarily because I do not want to do that swim again.

From a perspective of participant safety and participant satisfaction WTC really should re-evaluate the mass start with mixed wetsuits.

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Jeff

It was very different for those not wearing suits. I often swim without my suit at our local tri club tuesday practice and am generally right around 2 minutes slower for a mile. The biggest difference is that the people who swim 2 minutes slower than I do with their suits are all around me when I do not wear it. In LP yesterday I was 10 feet back and 10 feet off the pier where I usually start. With about a minute to go it was so crowded there that I did not really even have room to tread water. Actually kinda scary. Those around me with suits on did not have that issue. The vast majority around me had suits on. The chaos at the start was har worse without a suit on. When you get swam over or your legs pushed down with a suit on they kinda pop back up. Without one you need to be swimming to stay vertical. When there is no room to take a real stroke it is hard to do that. Made it feel like you were drowning. Kinda sucked. The whole first loop was a lot more brutal for me. Lots of people that I normally would be able to swim away from were right with me the whole way. My first loop was 55:xx [about 3 minutes slower than I figure I would have been]. The second loop was still very crowded when in the past it had thinned out a lot by then. I guess I need to learn to swim better as a guy I know that swam 55 minutes without a suit had no real issues at all ;-)

It really changed the whole race though. A huge difference was that transition and the beginning of the bike was far more crowded than it has been. You had lots of very fast riders who essentially had about a 5 minute swim penalty riding through the field. I feel like I was passing people the entire first loop. After the first loop of the ride it was all sorted out and back to what I would have expected. Had a great day though so hard to complain too much.

Hard to adequately describe but it was all very different. More than I would have thought. I was not the only one who felt that way last night at the pub.

 "athletes can chose to wear a legal wetsuit in water temperatures between 24.5 degrees Celsius/76.1 degrees Fahrenheit and 28.8 degrees Celsius/ 83.8 degrees Fahrenheit, with the understanding that they will not be eligible for awards and/or World Championship slots."

Originally from: http://ironman.com/...lesfaq#ixzz1T9sBgPiV

What was the water temp at IMLP? Are you proposing waves for every race in water temperatures between 24.5 degrees Celsius/76.1 degrees Fahrenheit and 28.8 degrees Celsius/ 83.8 degrees Fahrenheit?

What is your criteria for "quicker swimmers"? I have 3 friends who swam in the 57s and 58s w/out wetties and their comment was:

"We were smack dab in the melee. It was the most miserable part of the day. It was not safe at all and it lasted throughout most of the swim. It is not an experience we would ever choose to repeat. Two waves is a good idea. "

I think you misunderstand my take on the subject take a look at this thread:

http://forum.slowtwitch.com/..._reply;so=ASC;mh=28;

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Genetics load the gun, lifestyle pulls the trigger.

okay well there are a few key differences:

1. People who you would normally be ahead of are in your grill - artificial bunching of swimmers
2. The non wetsuit swimmer will fatigue faster, so after 20 minutes or so when the legs start to fall and the pace slows, the fresher wetsuit swimmer is now on top of you, and the one behind him etc. So even though you are the "better" swimmer, you've actually created a log jam.
3. The non wetsuit swimmer also has to tread water in a deep water start for up to 10 minutes...contributes to the fatigue.

I think we've all experienced the melee of the mass start, which generally clears itself out in 10 minutes...the key difference with the mixing of wetties and nons is that it never clears out...back to the fatigue and slowing hypothesis.

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Coach at KonaCoach Multisport

That makes sense. Making the fast swimmers slower and the slow swimmers faster would create a decent cluster. That and IM continuing to push the limits of how many people they can cram into a race...

Jodi

I completely agree. I did IMTX. I was planning no wetsuit but at the very last moment I noticed tons of people getting in the water with a wetsuit. I knew I was not going to make it to Kona on my first IM so I slipped on a Desoto speed tube pant. I cannot imagine what that swim would have een like without some flotation. I felt very bad for the people without wetsuit because the floating wetsuit people would basically sim over the top of the non wetsuit wearers. Also the crowd never seemed to thin out because people who should be at the back of the pack were unfairly able to keep up.

Thanks...please keep the reports coming. I have enough direct feedback from athletes who swam without wetsuit to believe that the situation is far from fair for those going without wetsuit.

I think in any rule making in triathlon, criteria number 1 is safety, criteria number 2 is fairness. The mixed start fails on both counts.

I like how they did it a both Rhode Island and Providence 70.3.....wetsuit guys start in last wave. In the case of a mass start IM, wetsuit folks should start in a different wave and give the non wetsuit guys some time to ease into their swim without getting clobbered by people whose lower bodies all magically float. The non wetsuit guys just sink.

My personal experience from non wetsuit swims is that people behave completely differently when they are not wrapped in the annonymity of rubber....people seem to behave in neoprene how they behave in a car in traffic.....immune from normal decent behaviour because of the anonymity cloak....well that's fine if everyone has the same flotation, but not really fine when a chunk of the field don't have that.

Dev

The cutoff should just be 76 degrees flat and simple. Above that NOBODY wears wetsuits. If you can't do it then you were inadequately prepared. Vineman was smart had the water temperature been above 76 they were firm on the fact you would have to start at the last wave if you were to wear a wetsuit.

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Fit Endurance Coaching - Head Coach|Facebook
USAT L1 Coach | BikeFit Certified Fitter | Contributing Writer - Triathlete Magazine | ROKA

This was my exact same experience, same start place, everything. The treading water thing was almost worse than the swim. I've done this race in 08 and 10 and never experiencd the kind of aggressiveness as yesterday. I came close to clocking a few people. It's one thing to push our legs down, but do it three times and expect my foot in your face. Then the traffic on the bike after swimming 1:15 was way different than 1:03.

My vote is for either wetsuit or not, no options. That's the only way to have a level playing field.

I would be all for this. If you aren't prepared to race without a floatation device you shouldn't be racing.

I started halfway down the flag line, probability 50m from the pier. I was expecting a 1:10 to 1:15 swim. I got in the water at 6:52 reiley was begging people to get in at that point. There were few people there, so I ended up in the second row, probably an even mix of wetsuits and non (I was wearing one). The crowd pushed forward with a couple of minutes to go, but not too bad. The cannon goes, and everyone around me goes off with no issues. I stayed about 25m wide of the turn buoys, no problems, out in 34min. second loop I stayed 10m wide of the line and the buoys, same thing- no contact. Finished in 1:09. May have been the easiest swim of my tri life- I've had more contact in a 75 person wave at the local sprint. There was a fairly equal mix of wetsuits and non for most of the swim.
I cannot imagine what would make one swim differently/ more aggressive in a suit. Maybe I got lucky but that swim was a breeze and I probably swam an extra 100m for it. I can see how it would impact faster swimmers and the usual experience in the change tent but I am a 12.5h guy and I got through T1 in 5:45.

And I'm a hell of a lot more comfortable with a wetsuit. They're fun. I can swim without one, I'm in the pool 5-6 times per week for over a year, but I prefer swimming with one and in CO, I've never encountered a swim too warm for one. If you can't handle a mass start scrum, maybe you should consider whether you should be doing an ironman to begin with.

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Aerodynamics are for people who can't build engines. -Enzo Ferrari

Jodi - with all due respect, STFU already. You weren't there, you didn't experience it. You have no fucking clue.

This thread is for athletes who have *EXPERIENCED* this phenomenon in an M.dot race to post about it, not Monday morning quarterbacks sitting at home pontificating about what they think.

I made it thru the Kona swim just fine, thank you very much. It was pleasant and civil, since we all were in the same level playing field.
Granted my swim was uber-slow, but that's cuz I was a worse swimmer then, and I took it super easy and just got thru it.
I never once felt threatened for fearful for my life, or that I was going to be drowned. I really enjoyed the experience.

LP was completely different. As was said, even treading water before the start was scary and dangerous, as the wetsuit-clad folks crowded in, and I had no room.
I have never felt in fear for my life like I did for the first 2-300m yesterday - I was *thiiiis* close to heading for a kayak and punting.

Getting bumped and dunked and grabbed is really no big deal when everyone has a wetsuit on. I don't mind it at all, since the contact is minimized, and you bob right back up to the surface w/ zero effort.

When somebody swims over you and you are not in a wetsuit, you go under.
When somebody grabs your ankle and you are not in a wetsuit, you slow dramatically or even stop.
When somebody pushes your leg down and you are not in a wetsuit, you need to kick extra-hard to get back up again, and/or to fend them off.
Doing that repeatedly caused my calves, thighs, and even feet to cramp, which slowed me down more, which subjected me to more of the same.

It was a horrible negative recursive cycle from Hell. I have never experienced anything remotely like that before; I never will again.
I don't know of anybody who didn't wear a wetsuit who had anything positive to say about the experience. Zero. None.


I'd be a fan of either no wetsuits for ANYBODY above a certain temperature, or better yet, the 2-wave start idea, with the wetsuit folks 15 mins back.
They don't even need a time penalty, give them until 12:15 to finish, whatever.

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float , hammer , and jog

I keep seeing this line of reasoning, but I am not certain that it makes sense.

Isn't entirely possible that people want to use a wetsuit because they know they are faster in it?

I have an upcoming OLY (or an Aquabike....we'll see what my Achilles has to say about it!). Water is supposed to be mid-70's, but may be higher because of the brutal heat we have had in the last week. I'm hoping the temp stays down because I know I swim faster in my wetsuit. I know I can swim the distance no problem w/o it (and have) but I also know I will be faster w/ it.

Is that really any different than a set of aero wheels?

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Chicago Cubs - 2016 WORLD SERIES Champions!!!!

"If ever the time should come, when vain and aspiring men shall possess the highest seats in government, our country will stand in need of its experienced patriots to prevent its ruin." - Samuel Adams

Had the same exact experience. Went w/o wetsuit yesterday, as I didn't think it would sit well with me afterwards - would think I cheated myself somehow and especially as announcements were made, which I interpreted to be that anyone with a wetsuit would be dubbed a Finisher only.

My experience? Felt like I went into battle without armor, or any other similar cliche you can imagine (knife to gun fight, etc.) I literally got pummeled, swam over, dunked, punched, and pushed under repeatedly by a swarm of wetsuits. I believe I swallowed an enormous amount of lake water. At the turnaround buoy, I recall looking up from 2' under at a sea of wetsuited folks treading water. Last year, I swam 1:06, whereas I barely survived yesterday in 1:16. After all of the lake water I swallowed, I felt completely both nauseous and bloated on the first bike loop and netting me the same bike time as last year, where I experienced 2 flats in 2010 IMLP - just could not get anything down in me until Loop 2, where I seemed to recover and get back on with the race, thankfully. Looking at the results in IMLP today (via Athlete tracker) and IM Texas, I see no differentiator between those who went commando and those who did not... For IMLP, I have no idea who, in my age group (yet or ever) who went with or without a wetsuit. Sure I did it for myself, but some validation would also be appreciated. They need to think this through some more. I can understand the organizers not wanting to scare away or inconvenience their Customer base, but the playing field should be level and fair.


On a lighter note - very happy the weather was perfect, sandwiched between a heat wave (although mitigated in LP) and a miserable rainy day.

Cheers

Ummmm....

You ended your barrage of anger with the exact same sentiment you hammered me for saying

"I'd be a fan of either no wetsuits for ANYBODY above a certain temperature"

But thanks for rephrasing my post.

Jodi

Thanks for your response on this thread as painful as it is today. We're all in this sport as a hobby. No one should be fearful for their life. This is a horrible experience. It's been corroborated to me by 60 minutes, 65 minutes, 70, 80, 90 and 100 min non wetsuit swimmers. Hopefully more of them will post their experience here. Then we can write something up and send to WTC so they can see/read the direct feedback.

The technology exists for wave starts and WTC already does this for 70.3 events with the wetsuit group starting last. The midnite cutoff driving the logistics for 99.9 percent of the other participants makes no sense. Yes, we'll all eventually be battling the midnight cutoff if we hang around this sport long enough, but I don't want 1000 people having a not so pleasant race just so that I can make the midnight cutoff.

I didn't rephrase your post. YOU effectively said, you should not enter a triathlon if you cannot swim w/o a wetsuit.

Quote:

If you aren't prepared to race without a floatation device you shouldn't be racing

I would think someone with your education would have better reading comprehension skills.

It's not about not having a floatation device. It's about EVERYONE in the field having the same thing - either with, or without.

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float , hammer , and jog

While not a FOP swimmer, I'm a top-20% swimmer. I had no intention on wearing a wetsuit at IMTX. All my training leading up to IMTX was with the non-wetsuit mentality. I'll use a pull buoy to simulate a wetsuit if I have a wetsuit race coming up. I was doing none of that.

Due to some cool weather the couple days leading up to IMTX, the lake temp was actually hovering around that 76 degree mark. I brought my wetsuit with me just in case. Race morning water temp was 78.8 or something like that so wetsuits were optional since it was above the 76.1 degree limit. I had my non-wetsuit kit on (DeSoto 78 degree top) and still had no intention of donning the wetsuit. I had my wetsuit in my morning clothes bag and was putting the bag in the box when, for whatever reason, I took the wetsuit out and said screw it and put it on. I got into the water at like 6:59 and was one of the last folks into the lake. Planned on a 1:10 non-wetsuit swim but figured a 1:05 in a wetsuit was easily in the cards.

The water temp was fine in the suit but I had issues with calf cramps. Since I wasn't trained for a wetsuit swim, I was artificially pointing my toes out too much and not relaxing my feet and ankles and my calves tightened up real bad when I straightened them out at one point. I spent a few minutes hanging on to a buoy while the cramps subsided. The calfs cramped up again later in the swim. My swim was 1:11. The cramps (which would not have happened if I had swum sans wetsuit) cost me several minutes and I ended up with a time no better than I would have with the wetsuit. I also dealt with the calf pain all day which certainly had some affect on my bike and run. Needless to say, I'm not sure why I put on the wetsuit and I wish I had a do-over.

Back to the point of the thread on the safety/contact issue...
I thought the swim was crowded because of the narrow swim course, especially the last 1000m in the canal. There was nowhere to go. I didn't find the swim nearly as physical and violent as IMFL. IMFL did thin out after the first turn and was pretty much smooth sailing from there but that initial 800m or so was brutal. IMTX never thinned out and actually got worse with the canal portion. It was non-stop contact with people but not in a violent way. It was just a narrow course that made navigating around other swimmers difficult. It was just a tough swim to find a groove.

I race pretty respectfully and made a conscious effort to not swim all over the non-wetsuit wearing folks. The line of thinking that people are more aggressive with a wetsuit is just BS, IMO. It just equalizes the swimmers more and makes it more congested which may seem like things get real nuts. Perception is often not the reality. Some people's mileage may vary though. There are super-aggresive douchebags at every race.

All that said, I would like to see a uniform swim rule. Either the race is wetsuits or not. My understanding is the RD can make that call despite the WTC or USAT rules -- but I'm not sure in this litigious society that any of them would have the stones to do that.

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Favorite Gear: Dimond | Cadex | Desoto Sport | Hoka One One

The results book will differentiate between the two.

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Favorite Gear: Dimond | Cadex | Desoto Sport | Hoka One One

Yes, you can say "HTFU" and learn to swim, but the bottom line is they all paid their $700 and deserve a fair race.

Personally, I am not sure how we reached this point with the grey area. If wetsuits are not allowed, wetsuits are not allowed!

I know that I may sound like a hard-ass about this, but if a body of some sort has taken into consideration all the variables and has said, due to these conditions, this will not be allowed. Why is it that everyone seems to want their own proprietary rules? I am not sure what it is about this sport, but it seems everyone has a story. Sorry folks, that's not the way sport in the grand scheme of tings works - their are rules to every game and it is assumed that everyone plays to those rules. What is so confusing about this?

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Steve Fleck @stevefleck | Blog

Chris G & Murphy'sLaw nailed it in my opinion. I entered the water at the same time and had much the same experience. Treading water was fine as long as there was room to move, but when the crush hit a couple minutes before the gun, I found my range of motion limited and arms pinned to my sides sometimes...so I had to kick like hell just to keep my head above water. Couldn't just bob like a wetsuit wearing cork. I was drinking water before the gun even went off and for someone who kicks as little as I do it was very fatiguing. Finished the swim 20+ minutes back of where I expected to be and legs were done. My race was over but it took one loop of the bike to convince me that I was not going to recover and get it going. Disappointed that I put all the time and money into preparing for and competing in the race only to never really get to race. Not raging mad here. Not intending to whine. Just don't think the decision to run things that way was well thought out. Maybe changes can be made in the future.

Fleck, there is nothing confusing about this. WTC has decided that they are going to allowed mixed starts. We're trying to collect some feedback to figure out how the mixed start can be conducted in a better manner that makes it more fair and more safe than what happened at Woodlands and Lake Placid

You can chose to pontificate from the ivory tower, but I doubt that WTC will ban wetsuit outright over 76 for a non championship event with 1000 newbies. So let's figure out a better way to do the "mix".

Dev

  
I don't know of anybody who didn't wear a wetsuit who had anything positive to say about the experience. Zero. None. .[/quote]

This is not true. As is said above there was clear water available for a 1:10 swim. I was in a wetsuit but many around me were not and were not burdened by contact. One non-wetsuit guy I swam near for much of loop 2 commented on the bike what a smooth swim it was.
Sorry you had such a rough ride, but saying there was nothing but a mosh pit is not correct.

I'd bet that 2 waves wouldn't reduce this. People swimming in that time frame are 'good' swimmers (for IM) and are likely competitive in the other two parts. So they'll be 'duking' it out. Sometimes (usually) it's not on purpose, just because so many people are trying to swim a good line, stay in a pack (faster). You might have 1/2 as many people, but it will still be people trying to swim stroke for stroke, draft someone etc.

Fleck, there is nothing confusing about this.

You can chose to pontificate from the ivory tower, but I doubt that WTC will ban wetsuit outright over 76 for a non championship event with 1000 newbies. So let's figure out a better way to do the "mix".

Dev,

There is a whole lot confusing - that's why you have what you have.

I am not pontificating, I am trying to simplify things. How much do we have to keep thin slicing this. What's next? A special lane going down to Keene for those who don't want to go over 45kmh??

Step back a bit and look at the big picture and see how strange it looks from the outside looking in. Try and think how odd it is that they say, "No wetsuits, but if you want to wear one, that's OK to"!! Then try and explain it all to an outside observer who knows nothing. You'll have a lot of "not exactlies" in your explanations and a lot of head scratching on the part of your listener!

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Steve Fleck @stevefleck | Blog

You pretty much summed up my prior 2 LP swims. Less contact than any other normal wave start. Once it thins after 100 yards or so the faster people are gone off the front and the slower folks off the back. You end up swimming near a bunch of people that swim about the same. No other waves to go through, no faster folks from behind go through you. I was not remotely worried about the swim going into Sunday and have always thought the fear of the mass start was way overblown.

I think saying that people are more aggressive in a suit or more civil without one is not accurate its just that the same behavior has a different effect, As I mentioned in my earlier post I have experienced the same thing to a lesser extent in our tuesday night training sessions with 150 people. Not a race, just training and it is dramatically different when I wear a suit rather than go without. Just is, hard to explain.

I still do not understand the two tiered rule. If it is too warm for suits then why is it safe for anyone to wear one? If it is safe to wear one then how can it be too warm? Whatever. I will be sure to bring some different gear in the future now that the rule has changed.

Oh and I do think the race folks did a good job of enforcing the rule. If that is the rule and that is the temp then they should enforce it. Also, I was standing there and watched them check every speed suit or skin or whatever you call them. There were a couple people super pissed that they were not allowed to wear what they had on.

I'll add to what Greg said, about swallowing water - I felt like one of the 5 Chinese Brothers, who swallowed the entire ocean.

I was so bloated when I finished It was very uncomfortable, and impacted my whole bike ride, as I spent the first ~20 mins mildly hypothermic, w/ shivering and teeth chattering (so much for the water being "too warm"), and then every downhill for the entire rest of the ride I was standing on the pedals trying to pee some of it out.
I did manage to do so finally, to some extent, but my gut was backed up by the time I got off the bike. Even after peeing in the change tent for 2 minutes, I couldn't get any calories in at all during the run, and then vomited and got dry heaves after 4 miles.


My sentiments exactly. Investing all that time and effort into this event, only to have it effectively be over before it even started, was very disappointing.

Jodi's kind thoughts notwithstanding, I have never been better prepared for anything in my life.
Frustrating that I didn't get the opportunity to show it when it counted.

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float , hammer , and jog

Fleck please save your pontificating for some other thread. This thread is to simply collect feedback from athletes with first hand experience and provide that back to WTC.

I get what you are saying, but unless YOU want to do something about changing WTC's mind about the mixed start, you're not achieving anything here other than coming across as whining.

If you're willing to take up the cause of having uniform all wetsuit or no wetsuit starts, please go for it.

I personally am not willing to take that up, knowing that there are 1000 Ironvirgins at each start that WTC needs to cater to for their bottom line. Many of these folks want a wetsuit...fine, I get the practical reality. I'm not willing to fight for some idealistic cause knowing full well that 1000 Ironvirgins x 700 dollars is $700K of revenue per race that WTC is not about to jeopardize. Money talks.

Given these business realities, I'd like to collect feedback to make the mixed start more fair and more safe.


thanks

Dev

I think the RD or Committee should publish what the temp allowing wetsuits is, at where on the course it will be measured, and how deep under the water it will be taken, at what time it will be posted, and what criteria will be a go or no go with the suits. This waffle pattern of yes, no,maybe is getting dangerous and someone is going to get hurt. Allowing some people to wear a suit but no awards, mixed into people racing without suits is just wrong. Make a rule and hold to it. If a swimmer wonders if they can make the distance without a wetsuit, they are in the wrong event, period. I have been a race director of a couple dozen tris,believe me , it is no fun, but changing your rules from what is published is just always a bad idea. You would not believe what folks have asked me 10 min to a start. Pullbouys are ok right? Can I use a kickboard. Can I swim with a rescue tube dragging behind me? If I go under that paddle boarder will save me won't they?

I have never been in court about a swim incident, but have been twice on a bike and run incident. Any movement from the normal standard is asking to get grilled by an attorney . Depositions are no fun.

As a customer you get what you pay for. If you see a waffle clause on mixed swimmers and wetsuit swimmers, just put your money elsewhere. I know Ironman Brand Events are hard to get into, but I am 100% in favor of supporting good events even the mom and pop ones if you don't like what some event is doing to you. If something seems wrong on an application, it probably is.

I get what you are saying, but unless YOU want to do something about changing WTC's mind about the mixed start, you're not achieving anything here other than coming across as whining.

If you're willing to take up the cause of having uniform all wetsuit or no wetsuit starts, please go for it.

Dev,

As someone who works in the wetsuit business and is also a good friend of WTC Head Referee, Jimmy Riccitello, I have actually spent a considerable amount of time on the phone with Jimmy discussing exactly this - well, not wetsuit wearers beating up on non-wetsuit wearers, but the whole change in the upper-limit cut-off and the ramifications of the change. I have also spent a considerable amount of time on the phone in discussions with Charlie Crawford at USAT, the other principal player on this, and what Charlie and USAT's take on all this is.

By all means collect your data/info, and I would be happy to send it on to Jimmy myself directly!

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Steve Fleck @stevefleck | Blog

Hi Fleck, by all means feel free to push the WTC for the all or nothing solution. I'm not willing to push an elephant uphill with a rope....would rather pick my battles to where there may be more success.

It's great that you are in the wetsuit busines, but quite frankly whether the start is all wetsuit, mixed or no wetsuit, it has zero impact on sales as all athletes will purchase one anyway. Your presence in the wetsuit business has no impact on the rule, or the application of the rule, nor race day logistics. If you can use your personal contacts to affect change in a positive manner that is awesome.

I think this goes far beyond Jimmy. Jimmy just enforces things. He's not the one setting the rules nor managing race day logistics. I'd love it if Jimmy can drive some common sense into how things are implemented for this particular situation.

Look at where the money is coming from and that's who WTC needs to cater to. Guys like you and I who do multiple Ironmans over our lives are irrelevent. They need 1000 newbies at each event if not their market dies fairly quickly. Those guys probably will want a wetsuit, and quite frankly 76F is still pretty cold....I'd have to swim moderately hard to not be hypothermic in around 65 minutes.....skinny runner types in the water for 100 minutes with no wetsuit in 76F are going to be pretty cold at the end.

I just did IM Lake Placid without a wetsuit. Typically, I swim high 50's without a wetsuit, low 50's with. I was very disappointed in the swim. I was stuck in a group of six inferior wetsuit swimmers. No etiquette. Constantly hammering my feet. Could not hold a line, cross-crossing in front of me. Banging into my side. Interlocking arms. These type of swimmers belong behind me.

Solution. An official mass start at 7am. A second "unofficial" start with a big time delay ( 30 minutes) without changes to cutoff times. Clock starts at 7am for everyone Continue to exempt older swimmers, 70 and up.

Or, maybe, you should consider IM Louisville where there is a time trial start and not a mass start...........

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Pink? Maybe. Maybe not. You decide.

Why are people saying the clock starts at 7am for everyone but the wetsuit swimmers get a 15 or 30 minute time delayed penalty? That's a monumentally fucking stupid solution. People keep talking about wetsuit legal vs illegal. The only time it's actually really illegal is over 83.8 degrees. Otherwise, from 76.1 to 83.8 it's just an award/slot eligibility issue which isn't a reality for 95% of racers anyway.

They sent (at IMTX anyway) wetsuit and non-wetsuit people through different timing chip corrals. At the very least they could do a delayed start with the wetsuit folks starting at 7:15 or 7:30 or whatever by going through that corral. The penalty would be the cutoff would still be midnight. So the slow folks only get 16:30 or 16:45 or whatever to finish the race. I think that's a doable solution. I was actually surprised they had both groups go at the same time at IMTX. It was my opinion the Kona chasers and HTFU crowd should not have to dance on the same floor as the wetsuit folks.

I agree with your premise, I just think it's a little high and mighty of you to say the wetsuit folks should have 30 minutes added to their race time.

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Favorite Gear: Dimond | Cadex | Desoto Sport | Hoka One One

This is too simple.

The temp cutoff is what it is, make it whatever ya'll agree on. After that, NO WETSUITS. That's what a cutoff IS.

I'm one of those guys who gains from a wetsuit, but I can swim the distance without it. If you can't, you shouldn't be in the event.

I don't care what comments follow. I'll say it again, IF YOU CAN'T SWIM THE DISTANCE WITHOUT A WETSUIT YOU HAVE NO BUSINESS IN THE EVENT.

100% agree with every single thing you typed.

The problem is that WTC and USAT made it complicated by having three rules within a rule. It should be as simple as a one temperature cutoff limit to rule them all. Instead they have three fucking rules within a rule. If it's x you can do this, if it's between y and z you can do that, and if it's over z you can do the other thing.

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Favorite Gear: Dimond | Cadex | Desoto Sport | Hoka One One

Why are people saying the clock starts at 7am for everyone but the wetsuit swimmers get a 15 or 30 minute time delayed penalty? ..... At the very least they could do a delayed start with the wetsuit folks starting at 7:15 or 7:30 or whatever by going through that corral. The penalty would be the cutoff would still be midnight. So the slow folks only get 16:30 or 16:45 or whatever to finish the race. I think that's a doable solution.
_____________
Are you disagreeing and agreeing about an delay start?

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@brooksdoughtie
USAT-L2,Y&J; USAC-L2
http://www.aomultisport.com

I'm agreeing about separate starting times... not penalizing the wetsuit folks 30 minutes.

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Favorite Gear: Dimond | Cadex | Desoto Sport | Hoka One One

So they start 30 mins later and get til 12:30 am to finish?

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@brooksdoughtie
USAT-L2,Y&J; USAC-L2
http://www.aomultisport.com

No, they still must adhere to the midnight cutoff time.

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Favorite Gear: Dimond | Cadex | Desoto Sport | Hoka One One

Then that is the 30 min "penalty" people were referring to (it's not an actual "penalty")?

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@brooksdoughtie
USAT-L2,Y&J; USAC-L2
http://www.aomultisport.com

If the clock starts at 7am for everyone per the proposal I quoted above AND the wetsuit folks don't start until 7:30... how is that not adding 30 minutes to their swim times?

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Favorite Gear: Dimond | Cadex | Desoto Sport | Hoka One One

How is that any different than the proposal you stated with your own solution though? I'm not sure I get the difference. You say they should do a 15/30 min delay yet still have the 12 midnight time cutoff. So isnt that exactly what you quoted and disagreed with?


Oh, are you talking about the swim cutoff needs to be 2:50 now (to account for the 30 mins extra wait for the wetsuit swimmers)?

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@brooksdoughtie
USAT-L2,Y&J; USAC-L2
http://www.aomultisport.com

I guess we're quibbling on that dude's sort of ambiguous "the clock starts at 7am for everyone" statement. I read it to mean everyone's timing chip starts at 7am but the wetsuit swimmers don't get to start swimming until 7:30. He probably did mean the 17 hour race clock starts at 7 am, not the wetsuit swimmers chip time.

I'm sick and tired. I'm allowed an obtuse moment or two. :-)

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Favorite Gear: Dimond | Cadex | Desoto Sport | Hoka One One

So are you changing your signature to "Sink, Hammer and Jog" then?

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Today is the second day of the rest of your life if you started keeping track yesterday

will it? IM texas doesn't.

this is what I don't get. Why the hell does someone who's can swim around an hour (I know you didn't say your time, but I gotta guess it wasn't that much slower than an hour and change based on the times you gave) wear a wetsuit (not you but the pack you were in)? Seriously, where did they line up? Why didn't people heckle them to the back of the pack. I would have been pissed (and told them) if I was on the front line and someone with a wetsuit was next to me.

Unless you started not up front, in that case, well, that's partially your fault. If you start in a big pack it's hard to get out of, if they are wearing wetsuits or not.

But I still don't see how people wearing wetsuits were around someone who is such a strong swimmer.

Is this a wet suit problem, or is it really a problem of to many people in to little of water? Wave starts or less people would seem to be a way of dealing with this. Tim

only once... Olympic Distance. I was in an elite AG wave and at the last minute they made it non-wetsuit for us, but wetsuit for everyone else. Waves were separated by 1 minute, but in actuality the 2nd wave got into the water right behind us. Sure enough, 3 minutes into the swim I'm in the mosh pit of the first turn in my own race and the lead wetsuiters start coming up from behind. I got absolutely run over and pounded, could not hold anyone's feet, and each wave separated by 1 minute continued to run over me.

Worst swim ever for OD.

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Eric Reid AeroFit | Instagram Portfolio
Aerodynamic Retul Bike Fitting

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Thanks for doing this Dev. At the very least, WTC should put some notation in the searchable results and athlete tracker (when they work) to distinguish racer/non-racer. By doing this it will be known to others that the athlete's finish time should be taken with a very big bag of salt.

Jamie

I started on the front line without a wetsuit. The majority of guys around me were wearing wetsuits. One benefit; while treading water, their kicks are cushioned.

Why must they swim so close to the cable ? Swim wider to get open water. The corner was to narrow guards and kayaks should have moved back more. I was a lifeguard and was concerned about the non Wetsuit swimmers. With only 18 guards that's a lot of water and swimmers .I don't know how the delay start would effect the pro race. I want a safe race . Thankfully no one died.

Thom
Ps some should spend more time training in the pool.

I'll speak up. I swam IMLP this weekend without the wetsuit as a last minute decision as I was told about the ruling upon entering transition to pump up my tires.

For the record, last year I was swimming sub 30's for 70.3's. This year at IMLP without the suit I swam 1:04. Had collarbone surgery 12 weeks ago.

The 10 minutes of treading water after the pro's started got scary. I can tread water very efficiently by small movements with just my hands, apparently, most people can't. Wetsuits crowded around me and I realized just how much the wetsuits keep you floating. It became very crowded and a lot of "egg beaters" kicking me in the legs and people crowding in so close I couldn't move my hands or arms to tread. It got scary. I tried to get to more open areas but that kept putting me further away from the line. And people would see their buddy and "need" to swim over me to get to them.

That was a 10 minute euro-soccer crowd experiences.

Then the first loop. Tarzan swimming. I don't mind the slapping of the legs or the punches to the head. What I mind is the feeling of being a tuna fish in a Japanese fishermens large net with 2000 other tuna fish. I wasn't even on the tow line, I was way right. Wetsuits, not other non-wetsuits, were grabbing my shoulders, pushing me under, and then crawling over me. I tried to make my way over to the inside buoy line, but it was the same there. I tried to find open pockets, but at each buoy, the crowd came back. I honestly thought I was going to die.

This went on for the length of the first out section of the first loop. A little on the back section and even less on the second loop. Over all it affected my energy level and probably cost me about 6 minutes or so. First loop was 32 minutes. I saw that and decided to swim harder on the second loop only to see my second loop time increase by 30 seconds. Of course, the second loop does include a small beach run, dolphin dives, and about 25 yard swim to the start line, probably worth 45 seconds to a minute.

Overall it didn't affect my race other than 6 minutes or so if I had worn a suit. It would have taken a perfect race (which with surgery I had no idea how my run endurance would play out) for me to be in the hunt for a KQ at sub 10 (35-39 AG), but I thought I would try, who knows what can happen on a given day.

Blew up half way thru the run and finished with a 10:42. ChrisG caught me on the run and he and I ran a bit together. He was running faster than my planned pace so I backed off. Wheels came off at mile 13 or 14.

There should be 3 groups at all triathlons. Pro's, award seekers, finishers. Or based on previous 70.3 or IM swim time pace. Nothing against any group, just a difference in what to expect. Other races, like NYC marathon do it, so we have the ability to do so and we are only talking about an additional 3 minute stagger.

Congrats to all that finished or attempted.

Dev

I did IMLP this past Sun, I went sans wetsuit. I'm a sub 1hr guy, 52:XX in LP several years ago and 54-55 min @ IMFL past few years. The swim was a shit show, I was on the line in about 50M and then proceeded to get the shit knocked out of me for the remainder of the 1st leg. I think WTC should stop being afraid about offending the ones who are afraid to swim without a suit. I think at the end of the day WTC is a business and they are concerned about filling the races and not to make people afraid of "god forbid" swimming without a wetsuit..

This nonsense of starting everyone together just makes it that much harder on those going without, for all the reasons in prior posts. In addition WTC lets you know, your time will count as an official time???? HUH??? You have to be aware going into this that there is a shot that you will go without, and we all train in the pool without.

Last but not least.. I don't like the fact that the people who used wetsuits are still in the official results with no notation next to their names

Scott

dev, why don't you focus on changing the 76 degree rule to a more reasonable 78 or 79? 76 degrees is too cold for many fit people with low body fat percentages. if the concern is overheating and safety, how many people with wetsuits on on sunday overheated? my guess is next to none. how many were freezing and quasi hypothermic? at least one on this thread and i know one pro last year who was.

Dev,
Thanks for doing this. My experience in Texas was also a nasty one. It was a day in which I did get my Kona slot but coming out of the water I can tell you I was already digging out of a hole I am not accustomed to when racing. While swimming is my limiter and I can say I did not pick the best spot to start, I got the snot kicked out of me. I expect to get knocked around, kicked, and punched but normally it ends at some point. I struggle to recall any point during the first 2k where I was able to get my legs up and in a good body position.What I do recall was the amount of rubber I battled. If I were in charge (and I am not) I would have separate wave starts for those wishing to wear wetsuits. By their decision, they are not eligible for awards and kona slots so why allow them to impact those who are racing for them.



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Robert Flanigan

Hi Mag900....personally I'd be very cold in 76 water for over an hour but probably be just OK as long as I was not get punched along the way. I'd personally rather have a universal cutoff at say 78 or 79, but as I said to Fleck, I'm not willing to take up that battle and I'll explain why. I don't believe WTC/USAT would lower the "no wetsuit at all" to 78 or 79. They set it at 80 something because they know that those who need wetsuits as a crutch can still do the swim reasonably safely without overheating while "competitors" will really have to compete at 76. In their mind, this the best of both worlds, maximizing revenue, while having a true "competition".

Having said that the "competition" is being severely impacted by the "maximizing revenue" attendees in wetsuit. I'd rather focus on affecting things that I can easily change, which is the implementation of the existing set of rules. I don't really have the time to push on USAT/WTC to change the rules. I'll leave that to guys like Fleck.

Zack, great race given the circumstances and your recent sidelining with the broken clavicle. Nice job by you and your caoch!!! Thanks for sharing your account. One of the guys in my training group who is normally a 68-69 minute guy spent the entire swim in the scenario you described....he never got out to the open and was with the 1:20 crowd feeling what you did for 4 legs instead of 1 leg.

Having said that the "competition" is being severely impacted by the "maximizing revenue" attendees in wetsuit. I'd rather focus on affecting things that I can easily change, which is the implementation of the existing set of rules. I don't really have the time to push on USAT/WTC to change the rules. I'll leave that to guys like Fleck.


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But which is more important to the RD/WTC? Competition or the "maximizing revenue" crowd. You said something like WTC needs 1k "new" people at every race, or else it would all dry up rather quickly. I dont see how they would implement rules that would potential damage that class of people.

Was your solution the 2 seperate starts with wetsuit swims an later swim start?

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@brooksdoughtie
USAT-L2,Y&J; USAC-L2
http://www.aomultisport.com

Correct, I don't think WTC wants to jeopardize revenue from the "maximize revenue" group, so I'm not really interested in fighting the two tiers of when wetsuit can be used. I just want to provide feedback on how the 2 groups can be fairly and safely separated, without really affecting race day logistics for the local RD and the timing crew. I think collecting personal experiences will help provide some ammunition.

Also in the other thread it was mentioned that Kona slot allocation was based on total starters, not wetsuit finishers per age group. That too seems dramatically unfair to groups with a larger percent of non wetsuit folks compared to their wetsuit percentage.

I am a 1:15 swimmer with a wetsuit. I agree with the other poster that around 1:10 to 1:15 there was a ton of open water. I had my best IMLP swim of my three races here. There was a ton of open water 10-25 feet off the buoys. I also swam probably 100 or more meters, but that was my choice to avoid the contact.

I have a different suggestion. I noticed almost every non wetsuit swimmer I was with in the water was shivering before the cannon went off. Why not move the temperature back up to 78 or even 80 for a wetsuit swim. If it is above that then no one wears one. I swam one loop (2000 meters) two days before the race without a wetsuit and I really took me a while to warm up, thus the reason I went with a wetsuit on race day. My two cents is to raise the temperature limit and keep it the same for everyone.
With that being said, at least at IMLP you have the choice of staying wide and having clean water. I can't speak for other 140.6 events though.

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Twitter: @ironman726

Ah yeah this is a great thread. I guess I'm just playing devils advocate in a few things:

1. I dont see WTC changing this "midnight" cutoff. They seem hell bent on it, so yeah let's assume they wont change that.

2. I'd be curious to see the actual numbers of wetsuit vs non-wetsuit. If we make seperate waves (which I have no clue how you cant make seperate waves to solve this issue), would those X number of wetsuit swimmers be ok with only getting 16:30 to finish the course (or 16:45, etc).

Edit: But let's be honest, as someone else put it....Is it really the wetsuit that is the issue or the number of athletes on the course? (Which all goes back to a numbers game and $$$)

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@brooksdoughtie
USAT-L2,Y&J; USAC-L2
http://www.aomultisport.com

That's the way it works at IM Louisville for the last people to get in the water...............

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Pink? Maybe. Maybe not. You decide.

Does anyone know when we will see the list of wetsuit versus non-wetsuit for IMLP? I really want to see my placement in AG with other non-wetsuit athletes.

The guy in my training group who I referred to a bit earlier was 11:30 in 45-49, but went no wetsuit as a challenge to himself, and ended up 24th in 45-49. Aparently the no wetsuit results were up onsite yesterday.

Yes while you are right in that it's a time trial start, but it's also basically the participants have the "choice" of how much time they lose on the clock (so if you dont care, you dont get in line early), whereas at IM LP with the proposed wave starts, it's either/or. Get 17 hours or lose 30 mins with wetsuit. Not sure how that will go well with potential customers. (Notice how IM Lou doesnt sell out very quickly vs other IM's).

AT IMLP, the guy who wants 17 hours can get 17 hours at IM Lou by getting 1st in line. Whereas here in LP, if they do the wave start, he wont get 17 hours.


Now I think this is a non-issue for ST people (or atlest those people wont admit it in this community setting). I just think if WTC's "goal" is to worry about maximizing profits, I dont see how they would do that with implementing an wave start that had a built in penalty (especially if alot of WTC's money is from the "1st" timers).

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@brooksdoughtie
USAT-L2,Y&J; USAC-L2
http://www.aomultisport.com

All this begs the question...

Why did WTC choose to adopt a new rule (76.1 degrees) that differs from USAT's 78 degree rule? I know the official line was to place further emphasis on performance and not technology but I don't see that working out at all for them or anyone else.

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Favorite Gear: Dimond | Cadex | Desoto Sport | Hoka One One

But will it be available online as well? There should be a way to tell in the results for all whether the swim was done with or without wetsuit. I'm not faulting people that did wear a wetsuit, but it was a different race for those that went without when they were expecting to wear one. It would be nice just to know where we ranked.

At IMLP with the 2 loop swim, a 30 min delta is not an option. It would need to be 10-15 min MAX as the lead no wetsuit swimmers would be back in 25 minutes and it would be absolute mayhem trying to start at second wave at 30 minutes just when the bulk of swimmers are starting to coming by.

The results book will differentiate between the two. Take a look at the IMTX results book: http://c26440.r40.cf1.rackcdn.com/...as-Results-Book1.pdf

Everyone is listed in the overall results and the overall gender results. Only the non-wetsuit folks are listed in the AG results. My name is listed in the overall results, the overall male results but not the M40-44 results.

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Favorite Gear: Dimond | Cadex | Desoto Sport | Hoka One One

I did IMTX as my first full IM. Sorry, no suggestions for a solution, but I didn't like the "mixed" swim. I'm a slow swimmer, but I knew I could do the distance well within the cutoff time. I did a lot of open-water practice, and I've done enough tri's that I'm used to the contact and can handle it (although swimming with the guys was a new experience!) I didn't wear a wetsuit, and due to a last-minute run back to the port-a-potty line, I was one of the people still in line on shore when the gun went off. I got in about 35-40 seconds later, took two strokes, and got hung up in a buoy line that I never saw - it was being pushed under water by all the swimmers going over it. I instantly had a guy in a wetsuit go right over my back, followed by a couple more who went partially over/partly around me -- my first thought was that I was going to drown before I even started. I didn't really see how the wetsuit swimmers were directed into the water, so I'm not sure if it was my late start that put me out there in the middle of the swarm of wetsuits, or if there was just too much chaos and the two lines fell apart, but I was surrounded by wetsuits and had a full-contact swim most of the time. I've done 4 half-IMs, all with wetsuits, in 40-50 min (40 before shoulder surgery, 50 after), and my IMTX swim time was 1:43. I got beat on steadily, but I never felt that I was in danger (other than when I took one solid punch to my head), but I never felt that I really got to swim, either. Being a BOP swimmer, even if the wetsuit swimmers had a delayed start, they would have caught me, but maybe not in such a pack??

As someone who has never done a mixed mass start, and being fully aware that this makes me a Monday morning quarterback, these descriptions of the start scare the shit out of me.

Louisville doesn't sell out quickly because people are afraid of the heat and humidity just like St George doesn't sell out because it is "hard".

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Pink? Maybe. Maybe not. You decide.

Thanks for the heads up. BTW, there were a ton of EN athletes out there. And Tri Life folks, holy crap, they were every where.

As been said by me and others, I thought the claustrophobic nature of the IMTX swim course was more to blame for the contact than anything else. Mixing wetsuits and non-wetsuits probably kept everyone more jammed together as well.

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Favorite Gear: Dimond | Cadex | Desoto Sport | Hoka One One

I think there were 38 EN athletes at IMLP. Coach P snagged one of the M35-39 Kona slots.

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Favorite Gear: Dimond | Cadex | Desoto Sport | Hoka One One

The solution seems simple to me.

A few years ago when the race was the US Pro Championship for the Womens, they started the women at 6:25 to ensure a clean and fair race. If the WTC (IMNA?) continues to allow non-wetsuit swimmers to compete alongside wetsuit swimmers, they should send the pros off at 6:25, and the non-wetsuit swimmers off at 6:40. Then you let the wetsuit swimmers who are out there just to finish to start at 7 and still have the midnight cutoff which doesn't mean anything to the non-wetsuit wearers anyway.

Or the WTC can do this again, mixing non-wetsuit wearers with wetsuit wearers, and 3rd time being the charm, someone will die.

what's your 1500 pr in the pool?

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___________________________________________
http://en.wikipedia.org/...eoesophageal_fistula
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2020 National Masters Champion - M40-44 - 400m IM
Canadian Record Holder 35-39M & 40-44M - 200 m Butterfly (LCM)

I agree it compresses the field which then causes problems on the bike by having people bunched up who don't belong together.

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___________________________________________
http://en.wikipedia.org/...eoesophageal_fistula
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cerebral_palsy
2020 National Masters Champion - M40-44 - 400m IM
Canadian Record Holder 35-39M & 40-44M - 200 m Butterfly (LCM)

Because the good thing about rules is that there's so many of them, so you can pick whichever you like :-) Case in point: the ITU rule is different again (http://www.triathlon.org/...n-rules_20110222.pdf, page 12): 24*C for a 4000m swim, which is 75.2F.

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Citizen of the world, former drunkard. Resident Traumatic Brain Injury advocate.

I swam without a wetsuit sunday, and agree on all points.
There were plenty of wetsuit swimmers near the front. The scariest part for me was being pushed down without the wetsuit. Not that it doesn't happen on non wetsuit swims, but I think people are more aware of the lack of bouyancy when not wearing one. It felt like I was riding my bike though nyc with a bunch of drunk drivers in suv's. Swam slower and ended up on the bike where it was pretty packed out. I think separating wetsuit and non would be a good thing.

:-)

This didn't seem to be a problem when the WTC rule was the same as USAT. All they did was create a solution to a problem that didn't exist.

That stated, IMTX water temp was like 78.8 so I guess the same issue would have happened either way.

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Favorite Gear: Dimond | Cadex | Desoto Sport | Hoka One One

I'm truly amazed no one got seriously injured this year. Is there anyway to see a list of all medical treatments at races? Just statistics, we don't need names. I'm curious where the spikes are, but I'm guessing dehydration.

I actually had a huge grin on my face when they announced the no-wetsuit ruling that morning. We dared the WTC to jump and they finally did. Funny that it happens at Lake Placid and not at a lot of places South of the Adirondacks!

For some perspective, in 2010 IMLP, 23 people finished between 16:45 and 17:00, so the 15 minute change you are discussing would have greatly improved the swim (based on these reports) for a very large group of Kona competitors, and negatively impacted the race for only the 23 people finishing between 16:45 and 17:00 (and they could have chosen to go non-wetsuit if they thought the 17 hours was going to be an issue). Further, the 15 minute spread would also benefit all competitors by marginally lowering congestion at the various choke points on the course.

No, I wasn't there. No, I've never done an IM.

Dev, you're an engineer type guy, so maybe you can explain where I'm missing things here. I'm just trying to understand.

For a typical IM wetsuit swim, there'll be some kind of bell-curve distribution of swimming speeds. A few really fast, most slower, and a few really slow. Take away the wetsuits, and it seems to me that you'll have a similar bell-curve, with the peak (most swimmers) shifted to the slower speed end of the graph. The better swimmers will move less than the lesser swimmers. Give some of the weaker swimmers back their wetsuits, and some of the bell-curve shifts back to the faster end of the graph. The result is that the faster swimmers will have a little more crowding than if nobody wore wetsuits, but not much less than if everyone had wetsuits.

For the high point on each of those curves, you'll have similar crowding. It seems to me that the only issue here is that there are some people who were in places on the curve that had more crowding than that to which they were accustomed. It seems to me that this could happen independent of wetsuits, given a slightly different distribution of swimmer speeds on a given day.

Am I correct in believing that nothing would have been different if you had replaced every wetsuit swimmer with a non-wetsuit swimmer going the same speed? That seems obvious. Were the wetsuit swimmers behaving differently than the non-wetsuit swimmers, other than being in a different part of the crowd?

Can you summarize what you think is the end result of mixing wetsuit and non-wetsuit swimmers?

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"Go yell at an M&M"

You are SO right Dev,as a now 61 year old woman who did Ironman texas for a Kona spot (got it by the way). I have to tell you that the swim for me was nothing short of BRUTAL. I'm small anyway, 112 lb with skinny arms, so if this was bad for larger people, imagine if you were my size. On top of being just brutal, I figure that it cost me 10 minutes on my swim time.

After texas, I did email the race director on this - all I received was a standard reply though - copied text from rules. (Which by the way had a higher wetsuit legal swim temperature than was imposed at Texas. Texas was particularly brutal due to the crowded swim start and final portion. Some common sense needs to be applied here. Under certain conditions: more room, less of a mass start , perhaps mixing wetsuit and non-wetsuit is ok. But not under crowded conditionss like texas with a large mass start, it is a VERY bad idea.

I also noticed that people who chose to wear wetsuits were not removed from the overall results. Personally, I like to see how well I do overall, as well as within my age group. And now, this informationis pretty invalid.

Let's say that you and I decide to fight. I get to wear protective gear and use a baseball bat, and you don't.

The swim is a fight. At Lake Placid, some people wore protective gear and used a baseball bat. Some didn't.

From a few comments above your reply:

The scariest part for me was being pushed down without the wetsuit. Not that it doesn't happen on non wetsuit swims, but I think people are more aware of the lack of bouyancy when not wearing one. It felt like I was riding my bike though nyc with a bunch of drunk drivers in suv's.

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@brooksdoughtie
USAT-L2,Y&J; USAC-L2
http://www.aomultisport.com

Sunday's non wetsuit swim was horrible in my opinion. As a 120 pound woman, attempting or at least competing for a spot AG/Kona, I cannot believe the utter insanity of what occured.
I am lucky to be here, as I was grabbed in the calf so hard, yanked down, swam over, and didn't have the buoyancy to get back up. I spent 15+ minutes on a paddle board with medical because my calf was so beat up, I have a bruise in the shape of a hand to show for it. I met girls in my same situation (not the 55-1:00 girls, but the 1:07-1:15 non wetsuit girls), and there were black eyes, busted up lips, etc. Not sure one of the girls I met, weighed more than me....in other words, pretty tiny compared to the 185 pound guy in the wetsuit trying to play water polo with our bodies.
As a Race Director, USAT NE Officer, and USAT AGC Member, I will be bringing this situation up....start the pros at 6:40, non wetsuit slot grabbers at 6:50, and others at 7:00, won't change the dynamics of the race, and allows it to be a bit cleaner and an actual true event.
Overall, I am thrilled I was able to rally back after what could have been a towel throw in of a day. Haven't seen a race from that vantage point....as I passed over 1100 people on the bike (btw, NICE draft packs out there....40+ at times during the first out and back section), and almost 500 on the run.
Anyway, just my two cents....and no, didn't get a Kona slot, and even had I had the perfect race, I would have missed by at least 2-3 slots. But a girl has got to try. :)

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Kat Donatello
2015 Betty Designs Team
RD, The Pumpkinman Triathlon Festival
http://www.pumpkinmantriathlon.com/

Are you saying that the people who wore wetsuits behave(d) differently than those who didn't wear wetsuits? I'm not disputing it, I'm trying to wrap my little brain around why that may be so. Or are you saying that there is a difference between getting smacked by someone wearing a wetsuit and by someone not wearing a wetsuit? Or, perhaps, that not wearing a wetsuit provides less protection against getting smacked independent of who is hitting you?

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"Go yell at an M&M"

Why did WTC choose to adopt a new rule (76.1 degrees) that differs from USAT's 78 degree rule? I know the official line was to place further emphasis on performance and not technology but I don't see that working out at all for them or anyone else.

That is the key question. Dev seems to think that my contributions here, my own ideas and the extensive consultations with the WTC and USAT don't matter. However, I'll continue to "pontificate", FWIW! ;-)

I'll tell you why they are different, for now, and also tell you that there are ongoing discussions going on behind the scenes. Stay tuned.

One of the WTC's concerns was regarding "over-heating" during the swim. I hear and encounter this a lot in the business of selling wetsuits - athletes worried about over-heating in 1/2 and full IM distance swims in warmer water on warm days. It's a valid concern, but hang in there for a bit. USAT stands on the ground I believe of one study that was done a long time ago on the effects of core temperature while swimming with a wetsuit in warmer water. What it found was that core temperature (the key metric here) varied little in warmer waters while wearing a wetsuit up to about that 78F mark. However, swimmers felt warmer. There is a perception that they are getting hotter. That's understood, as that thin film of water between the skin and the inside of the wetsuit is getting warmer - so you feel warmer, but even that warmer layer of water is still pulling heat away from the body, thus the core temperatures remain unchanged up to a certain point, which USAT seems to think is around 78F.

I have heard that USAT is looking into this and is looking at re-visiting the research to see if these numbers still stack up. Obviously, the WTC has moved forward on their own and applied for a dispensation, as they have in other areas that apply to their events.

Despite what Dev, says, I thought a bit of back-ground information would be helpful.

My personal opinion remains that same, but is influenced by the above. Mixing wetsuit and non-wetsuits is not optimal. Pick a number, whatever that is, and stick to it! No grey area. Either wetsuits are allowed or not allowed!

Hope this helps!

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Steve Fleck @stevefleck | Blog

Here is the scenario. You're in a 20' by 20' pool that is 20 feet deep, the deck and sides are electrified, so you can't get out. There are 100 people in the pool with you and they are all wearing life vests. Everyone is panicking and flailing around. You don't have a life vest.

All of a sudden a narrow door is open to the pool letting everyone to leave the pool single file, but everyone is in a rush to get out of the pool. Again, they have life vests, you don't. You can't get in front of the guys in front of you and the guys in back of you are panicking to get out so they climb over you.

I think that is what you are missing. The frenzy and the emotions.

We chose not to were a wetsuit to race and compete, not just to finish. Our goals were to post results to qualify for Kona or Podium. If you wore a wetsuit, you did not choose this path. Therefore, the extra bit of time to start wouldn't affect you since this was not part of your plan/goal.

I take NOTHING away from anyone that used a suit. 2.4 miles is still a long way away. However, it was a different race between the wetsuit and non-wetsuit athletes. Just like elite and pro's are in a different race than the rest of us (same course, same environment, but they are only racing each other, not the ager groupers), those that elected to try for a qualifying time were in a race against each other, not the wetsuit athletes. I'm not mad or upset with anyone that wore a wetsuit, but I was shocked at the mayhem when combining the 2 types of athletes. I hope WTC makes some changes to this for the future. Someone will get badly hurt or worse if this doesn't change.

21:59 scy

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Eric Reid AeroFit | Instagram Portfolio
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76 for over an hour is way too cold for many/most fit/thin people, particularly when you include 10-15 minutes of treading water. bumping the ceiling to 78/79 basically would make imlp a wetsuit race every year, which it should be due to the massive overcrowding. is it going to take either a drowning victim or someone who suffers severe hypothermia and sues WTC before it raises its unreasonable ceiling to a more reasonable temperature?

I was not there. What I am trying to figure out, is this really about a wet suit vrs no wet suit issue or are there just to many people in to small of a piece of water at the same time. Tim

Not directly related to your point as it was a wetsuit swim for all, but IM Germany has a wave for faster AG-ers that started with the Pros. AG-ers just had to apply to be part of it. Given that as I'm a 66m swimmer and caught some of them, they were not all good swimmers. So the precedent is there for having separate waves.

The wetsuit people were taken out of the results which were on the table at the roll down. They only had the top 50 in each AG. Did not see a comprehensive list. I went from 12 to 10 when they were taken out. Seems like the experience of just about everyone was the same. Very odd to have such a consensus here in ST land.

What I seem to be missing is the difference that everyone else wearing a life vest makes. It's not that they are wearing life vests, it's that you aren't that is the cause of concern. If you remove the strikethrough text, is your scenario still correct?

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"Go yell at an M&M"

I dont know if the wetsuit athletes acted any differently, but the effect it has on non-wetsuit swimmers changes. When i wear a wetsuit and get knocked or pulled I bounce right back up. Without a wetsuit,if you cannot kick because of being grabbed it changes from swimming to staying afloat. Now, it wasnt as if this happened the entire 2.4 miles, but 6 or 7 times throughout the course. To clarify, I am not talking about a brush of the feet or being hit on your side. I am talking about, having your calf grabbed and used as a lever for propulsion. I remember two disctict times I felt i was swimming for my life around the turn buoys. I went under both times and getting back to surface seemed like being trapped under ice.

There is no doubt in my mind that i should have stayed somewhat wide. I have learned that lesson. I finished the swim in 1:16.

and the bike course sucks. and the ohio river etc.

I was there with about 5 friends who were racing. I have heard all of their stories. I have also been to LP for a number of years and heard all of the other stories. I have not done LP and may never given the swim. It sounds here like everyone is trying to place blame or find reason for a bad swim experience on wetsuit vs non-wetsuit. Here are a few thoughts of mine.
What I'm hearing is this, swimming with 2500 other people without a wetsuit on in a tiny lake sucks. What is the difference if everyone has a wetsuit vs not having a wetsuit? Are you saying that had everyone not had a wetsuit on then you wouldn't have been touched? Or submerged? Or bumped? I think not. It would have still happened as there are too many people in one small space. Getting dunked by someone in a wetsuit vs someone not in a wetsuit is the same, you still go under and it's still hard to come up when you're not wearing one. The issue that needs resolution is the fact that they are saying one group qualifies and one group doesn't. Just raise the temp and let everyone wear a wetsuit regardless, problem solved. Or at least argument solved. The problem will still be there. There will still be complaints about bad swims at LP, there has been for years, way too many people in too small a space.
And for those of you who say stupid shit like don't sign up if you can't swim without a wetsuit, stop being an asshole. There are many factors that go into wearing a wetsuit vs not wearing one.

Again, what you describe is due to your not wearing a wetsuit: whether the others were wearing wetsuits didn't matter.

It sounds more and more like "too many swimmers, not enough water." The fact that the field was compressed (faster swimmers don't wear wetsuits and go a bit slower, slower swimmers wear wetsuits and go a lot faster) exacerbated the known problem.

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"Go yell at an M&M"

huh. @ 153 I would much rather swim in 75 than 78 or more. I say use the xterra rule of 73.
jamie

A large issue at LP, is the fight over the "small piece of water" next to the underwater lane line. Everyone fights for that to eliminate the need to sight

I'll add my thoughts...
I am an experienced triathlete. Did my first triathlon 27 years ago.
I grew up a swimmer, and now coach swimming for a living (and have coached for a bit longer than the 27 years since my first tri).

I did IM Texas and did not wear a wetsuit. It was the worst open water experience of my life, bar none.
I was in sub-60 minute IM swim shape. Not a doubt. I have the knowledge to evaluate such, and I was ready. Looking at results it appears a lot of potential 57-59 min racers were a bit slow by 3-4 minutes. Not sure why, and it's not important to the conversation. (course long? too tight? see below as well)

I lined up on the far side, opposite the entrance. Swam a bit and warmed up. Felt great. No issues. Ready to have a great race.
Treading is not an problem for me. As someone else said, I can tread with no legs and just easy sculling of the hands. Not an issue. As I am waiting for the start I was getting pushed farther and farther towards the far shore. It irritated me, but I was focused on the race. Oh well...let's get down to business.

The race began, and I have never been pummeled so bad in my life!

It was insane. I will echo much of what I have read on this thread from other TX & LP racers. Squeezed, swam on, pulling my arms-shoulders-legs. I felt like I was going to drown! I had to swim head up to catch my breath. I have never done that in any triathlon, and I have done well over 100. I was thinking what the hell is happening?
The thought crossed my mind that I wanted to stop. I never have had that thought in a race...WTH?!
Have I been bumped and pulled on in other IM's? Yes. Was it ever to this extent? No...not even close.

Post race thoughts: Why was it so bad? What was different? I came up with these (1) lined up in a bad place - bad luck. (2) wettie vs. non-wettie. (3) too narrow start area (I had no problems in the canal).

My post race conclusions were mostly surrounded by assuming I made some errors.
But after reading all the reports from others with strikingly similar experiences, it had to be more than that.

I feel someone with a wettie on has an advantage, in that...if there is contact (by grabbing me) the person wearing the wettie has more leverage than me w/o one on. They are in a much better position to pull on me and move themselves forward and/or up. If the non-wettie swimmer has 2 or more wetsuit clad swimmers pulling on him at the same time...ouch! Kind of pushed down and staying down. Until there is room to come up and they let go.

This is what happened to me. It was like when one person was done using me as a ladder, someone else latched on and used me as the same. After that happening several times I could not catch my breath. Head up breaststroke became my locomotion until I could breathe again. That happened 2-3 times. Then it cleared out a bit and I could at least swim, but most around me were wearing w-suits and could not hold a line for beans. I ended up swimming with people I normally would not be around. Result: my worst IM swim I have ever had.

It also changed the rest of my race. I have never been in the change tent with it so crowded before. It was chaos. I guess I am spoiled by usually being in front of that crowd. Then, once on the bike, the bike course was crowded too. I'm not whining, just saying that it changed the dynamics of my race.

Then...I did not know who I was really racing against. Did that dude wear a wetsuit? What about him?

Then, when looking at results online that evening, my placing was different than it ultimately turned out to be, due to the wetsuit racers being listed in results and not yet pulled out. Damn...what a mess!

My solutions:
(#1) entire field allowed to wear wetsuit or not (I agree if you can't swim 2.4 without, you should not be racing an Ironman. Can you use training wheels if you can't ride a bike?)
(#2) start wetsuit clad after everyone else has started. Give them 17 hrs. But get them out of the race. If you wear a wetsuit in this instance you are in another race. Similar to the early pro start at Kona - to get age group men away from the pro women on the bike.

My 2 cents!

Yes. In this scenario is most definitely would make a difference is some were wearing and some were not.
Those wearing would have a much easier time maneuvering. And could pretty much breathe at will. And would use non-wearing as leverage to get the hell out.
Advantage? Hell yeah!

Hi Fleck. If you want to battle for an all or nothing solution, you are welcome to. Just do more about it than posting for the sake of posting and create uneccessary noise in here. Get on the phone with WTC and start your battle. Collect your data and influence change. Don't just come on ST and whine about everything being confusing. You're not being proactive nor constructive in doing so. If you want to get the wetsuit temp rule change, fine, please start a thread with that as the explicit goal. Rally consumers, officials and race directors please and proactively affect change.

I'm just trying to come up with data here and provide WTC with feedback for a better solution GIVEN the current rule set that results in a mixed start based on the actual feedback of real customers who experienced the drawbacks. As Chris G said, it is very rare on ST that there is a universal consensus about a topic by THOSE WHO ACTUALLY EXPERIENCED IT.

To the others debating what the difference between having a wetsuit on vs not in a mixed start, save that discussion for another thread please. No need for Monday morning quarterback. This thread is for those who had no wetsuit in a mixed start to post their experiences.

To those who have posted your experiences, many thanks. 112 lb 61 year old women competiting for Kona slots should not feel their lives threatened in a mass start from men twice their size clad in rubber.


Dev

Dev, you might want to tell Dev ;^)

That's a pretty frightening experience, especially coming from a strong swimmer. I don't understand the behavior that's at the root of the problem. Why does the anonymity of a cap and goggles make people feel like they can swim over the top of others, grab legs, etc.? I can understand the occasional kick and locking arms. That's going to happen with that many swimmers in a confined space. But the brawl mentality is ridiculous and downright dangerous. This doesn't happen at the local 5k running race with 2000+ people.

While I can usually push hard for a few minutes and get clear of the scrum, I never do it by swimming over others, grabbing limbs, or other aggressive behavior. In fact if the person next to me is swimming wide, I'll sit up and pass behind them rather than swimming over the top.

Personally, I'm in favor of wave or time trial starts, but I know that's not the Ironman tradition, nor the topic of this thread.

Like I said, you are missing the EMOTIONS. Panic. Fear. Or better yet, the confidence that comes with knowing that you are wearing a life vest and are less likely to drown.

I'm guessing that the athletes without wetsuits on KNEW they could swim the distance without help, while the others that did where a wetsuit thought they MIGHT need an element of help (warmth, flotation, whatever). With a wetsuit acting as a flotation, whether intentional or not on the behalf of the athlete, the athlete is only concerned with going forward and not using energy to keep the head above water, or not as much I should say. The athlete without flotation needs to exert energy to keep the head up, more so than the athlete with flotation.

Speaking only for myself; I know beyond a doubt I am a strong enough swimmer to swim the distance without a suit on. I am confident in my ability to swim and tread water. I have no fear of water. I can not say the same for the other athletes, especially the ones that opted to use a wetsuit even when told that the "race" was not wetsuit legal.

Had NO ONE been wearing a life vest, then they might not have been so confident to swarm in such tight packs and crawl over each other. Or crowd together when treading water. If you need to move your arms to tread and have no flotation device, you will instictly move to a spot wear you CAN move your arms to tread water and survive, instead of bob up and down in the water wearing a wetsuit and crowding together like a mob.

Here's a data point for you.

I've never done LP, or any IM for that matter. I'm a 160 lb, 52 yo male who has swum competitively and played water polo. I swim 25 min for a HIM.

Although I'd someday like to race at LP and attempt to qualify for Kona, all this talk is scaring the you know what out of me and making it unlikely that I'll ever sign up.

Fleck, I agree with Dev in that there is no way WTC will ever completely disallow wetsuits. There are too many people who just want to complete the course. To do that they need to survive the swim and for many of them that requires flotation. I'm not saying I like it, but that's just the way it is.

Victor

Disclaimer: I wasn't there and have never worn a wetsuit, so this is just a guess.

If there is a behaviour difference between wetsuit wearers and non, I'm going to guess it would come down to the wetsuit wearers having a few mm of rubber protection.

To strain another analogy: let's say you're in a bouncy castle with 20 other people. If you're wearing a football uniform with padding/shoulderpads/helmet, you're probably going to jump higher, run at the walls faster, etc than a guy wearing shorts and a tshirt, because you know you're protected and if someone bumps into you, it won't hurt. It might hurt the guy you hit, but you'll probably still play a bit harder anyway.

It may be the same with wetsuit wearers: since their skin isn't exposed, they don't feel the bumps as strongly as the non-wetsuit folks. Swimming over a guy might feel awful without a wetsuit (you'd feel their skin and hair, and probably get scratched as they try to get to the surface), but to a wetsuit wearer, they'd just feel some bumps and pressure through the rubber.

So there's probably two elements:
1) Risk compensation - they swim more aggressively because they feel protected
2) Numbing effect of a few mm of rubber - because they don't actually have a direct feel for the water and people around them, they can't tell how violently they're bumping into people.

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STAC Zero Trainer - Zero noise, zero tire contact, zero moving parts. Suffer in Silence starting fall 2016

How does the IM Lou bike suck? Just curious for your thoughts.

Are you strictly speaking of IMLP? Or are you trying to say all races will have the option of wetsuit, because if this is the case, then I will mention IM Louisville and IM Cozumel.

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Pink? Maybe. Maybe not. You decide.

Thank you, perfect analogy.

As you point out, core temperature is dropping the entire time a swimmer is in the water, so drop in core temperature will be much less in a 55 minute swimmer than a 2 hour swimmer. Maybe having a gray area is safer.

I'll have to take you guys' word on this, as I never thought of a wetsuit as "armor." Do people really think like that? How can anyone not be aware that they are running into and over other human beings? Yikes.

Reminds me of an experiment in trying to teach chimps to drive cars (or go-carts, more likely). They were able to teach them the fundamentals, but they couldn't get them to understand that you don't accelerate when the light turns green if there are cars stopped in front of you.

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"Go yell at an M&M"

I'm sure they're aware, but since they can't really feel the people they're grabbing/elbowing/kicking other than as points of pressure through their suit, they aren't aware of the damage they're inflicting. [I assume] they're not going out thinking "haha, I have this rubber suit, so I'm going to rail this guy in the head", they're thinking "oops, I think I just hit that guy in the head" or "oops, I just ran that guy over", without realizing at a visceral level how hard they just hit a guy or how hard that guy underwater is having to work to get back up.

Another strained analogy: you probably wouldn't kill a small animal via blunt trauma with a hammer or golf club, but you've probably killed lots while insulated in your car.

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STAC Zero Trainer - Zero noise, zero tire contact, zero moving parts. Suffer in Silence starting fall 2016

Here is my solution.
Start wetsuit wave first as a TT from 6:30 to 7:15. Even on a 2 loop swim things will be spread out and chip timing will ensure everyone does 2 laps.
"Kona" wave starts inmass at 9:00. Midnight cutoff for both starts.
May want an exception for 60+ crowd.
Sure Kona wave needs to pass others on bike, but should be strung out by then.

Not sure about armor but I pretty much always feel like batman when I put my wetsuit on ;-)

Again, I do not think there is any conscious difference in the way people act when they have a suit of vs not. Taking yet another stab at a good analogy its like how people tend to yell when they have head phones on with the music loud. They do not mean to yell and do not know that they are but it is easily discernible to those nearby.

Good point. I was specifically thinking of LP, but perhaps I'll have to amend my statement: "There is no way WTC will ever completely disallow wetsuits where the masses expect to be able to wear them."

So ideally, WTC should reset expectations, but I don't think that is likely either.

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Agree that the bouncy house analogy is a good one.

I don't think anyone (or mostly anyone) is *purposely* swimming aggressively in a wetsuit - they probably don't even realize they are doing it.

When you have one on, you are much less effected by the scrum, so you don't really think about it or worry about it much, it's just part of the game.

A few thoughts i had while driving in to work today:
1 - it's very unlikely this ever is an issue at LP again. It took a record freak heat wave to get the lake above the 76 degree threshold.

2 - 76 degrees is NOT "too warm" for a wetsuit. I was cold standing in waist deep water prior to the start, and saw numerous others shivering. Was totally comfortable w/ the air temp, which was high 60's at that point. But the water made me very chilly.
I spent the first 20' of the bike ride shivering and teeth chattering. I've been hypothermic before, and it sucks. Glad I was able to warm up again prior to the Keene descent. That woulda been ugly w/ a shivering rider aboard...

3 - IF they were to have this happen again, having 3 waves - Pro, awards contenders, and Finishers, each :10 apart, would alleviate much of the issues.
You can't have more than :15 max after the Awards wave for the rest to start, or else it would negatively impact the Pros on lap 2.
So say Pros at 6:50, Awards at 7:00, Finishers at 7:10 - something like that.
Keep the cutoff at midnight, and the wetsuit awarded probably gain ~:10 minutes anyway by being allowed to wear one, vs being forced to do without.

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float , hammer , and jog

I raced IMLP with a wetsuit. I would be fine racing it without a wetsuit, but I chose one because I knew I would be way off from awards/Kona and I didn't want to deal with the issues that all of the "non-wetsuit" swimmers are reporting. Having said that, I did see a bunch of the non-wetsuit people shivering pretty badly before the gun went off. I was perfectly comfortable temperature wise with a sleeveless one on and am overall very glad I had one on since I got kicked and punched a bunch.

I raced Cozumel last year, and didn't even feel remotely the way I felt on Sunday. Nor was I beat up the way I was on Sunday.

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Kat Donatello
2015 Betty Designs Team
RD, The Pumpkinman Triathlon Festival
http://www.pumpkinmantriathlon.com/

This was my exact experience. A late season running injury erased my chances of any award/ KQ, therefore I had no reason to leave the wetsuit in the bag. I even took the time to prop one of the non-wetsuit swimmers while waiting for the gun. She was (hot) shivering and happy for the relief.

To the OP: This was, by and far, my tamest experience in LP swimming. Last year being the worst in the bump and grind. This year I had a smooth ride around both laps of the swim.

That being said: I am in full support of the cut-off temperature. I like black and white, no gray. I can swim comfortably with or without.

I am not in support of wave starts. When the gun goes off, the race begins. Not just for some, but for all. (Aside: I don't mind the pros going off a little early, they are racing for different stakes.)

I also think that the RD/ WTC needs to develop a better communication policy for current water temperatures and wetsuit/ non-wetsuit at least 24 hours in advance. There was way too much speculation, even at 9:00 pm the night before the race without anything posted on their site. I can't imagine the anxiety of some of the athletes that wanted to compete for an award/ slot going to bed not knowing what to expect in the morning.

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Take a short break from ST and read my blog:
http://tri-banter.blogspot.com/

Dev,

Thanks for the slap in the face!

I thought I was helping provide a bit of back-ground information regarding how the WTC arrived at their position and the stance that USAT takes on the matter. This is not important information in this discussion? You don't need to understand the, "Why" before you try and suggest a change? My apologies, for contributing to the "noise" of the thread!

And why wouldn't the WTC change the rule (if there is a sound basis to do so), they seem to have become fairly adept of late, recanting on all manner of things after taking ill-advised steps forward? Why does this have to be within the current rules?

I also thought that my 30 year back-ground and perspective on the sport might be helpful (compared to the, with all due respect, knee-jerk reaction from one race of many others) as well as being someone who works in the wetsuit business and has had extensive talks on this very subject matter with various stake-holders and players involved with the issue. But I guess from your perspective my input is wasting yours and others time. I am sorry.

I'll make no further contributions to this thread!

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Steve Fleck @stevefleck | Blog

There's actually a fair amount of interest and research in appropriate water temperatures for open water racing right now because of the Fran Crippen affair. FINA now regards 28C/82F as a maximum temperature for bare skin competition. I wouldn't be surprised to see USAT/WTC take that into consideration when they're deciding on wetsuit cutoff temperatures, and find it very unlikely to see legal westsuit temps adjusted upward any time soon.

That's interesting. Depending on who you believe, the water at Muncie this year was 81 or 82 at the start and I'm sure only got warmer as the swim went on.

First, there were a handful of people that still wore wet suits because they could.

Second, I came out of the water hot and sweaty, the first time ever in any race. I was also very dehydrated and had to drink a lot just to catch up on the bike (which I never did and eventually had problems).

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"...the street finds its own uses for things"

Steve, you can call the reaction of those who experienced IMLP without wetsuit "knee jerk from one race". In fairness to them, everyone who raced without wetsuit in this mixed start has provided this forum (as well as myself offline) the same description. I'm just collecting this on their behalf. I don't think in your 30 years, (16 as competitor, last 14 as non competitor), you have experienced what they did, so I am sure a few are feeling a bit peeved that you are calling their reaction knee jerk.

The direct feedback I have received, is that their experience was very unpleasant, the situation was unsafe and in many cases took away from the ability to race.

The boys at WTC are smart guys and am sure will be willing to address this while still allowing a large amount of their field to use wetsuits. If you can get Jimmy R to help with separating the types of swimmers with waves, that would be awesome, but as I said earlier in the thread, this thing appears to be more on the race organization side and how the rule is implemented and race logistics executed, rather than a pure enforcement of the rules. As far as I understand Jimmy is there to enforce the rules, not create them nor to influence structure of race logistics.

In my opinion, you're way out of line here...there are many solutions to the problem, Dev. Not just the one's the
"The Great and Powerful Dev" deems appropriate.

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"Good genes are not a requirement, just the obsession to beat ones brains out daily"...the Griz

Hi there....it's a long thread and perhaps you have not read everything. I'm not against changing the rules. The intent of this thread was not to fight that battle. Glad if others want to take up that cause. I just wanted to collect feedback from racers who went with no suit and then provide suggestions to WTC for a better format for mixed starts.

not nearly as experienced or strong a swimmer but similar issues. i swam about 1:10 and it sucked the entire way. the canal was a as bad as the start. the bike was also a bummer. too many cars. run was fun and we did get lucky with the weather

Oh and I blame all of you folks that peed in the lake Thursday, Friday and Saturday for raising the water temp beyond wetsuit legal. If you can believe what you hear it was only a half a degree over. Bastards ;-)

I am BOP'er IM Age Grouper. I did IM TX without wetsuit. I waited until 6:59 AM to enter the water. They were herding everyone in @ 6:45 AM. I felt that without wetsuit I was at a distinct disadvantage to tread water for 15 minutes while wetsuiters could float.
This was my 3rd IM and first sans wet suit. The swim start was the most scrum like I have ever done but I believe due more to the narrow course that wetsuit versus non wetsuit.
Again feel the advantage was in energy conservation at start. And I am not a Kona contender just felt if they said no wet suit OK will go by the rules.

I haven't bothered to read the thread, but all the pissing and moaning is a bit overrated. It's clearly stated in the rules/race docs what the policy is and the way I see it everyone that entered is agreeing to play by those rules. I wore a wetsuit as did the majority of the others in the race. I feel for the small percentile who were on the fence and had to decide, but that's part of playing the game. I think I saw 2 people out there without wetties on while I was swimming. I treated them just like I would any other fellow competitor. When your the minority it's easy to feel that it was the wetsuit clad people pounding you, but that's likely due to the tiny number of non wetsuit swimmers out there.

As for safety, I think it would be far more unsafe to force everyone to swim without. There are some mediocre swimmers that need that help, I was once one of them. Yes it would string out the field a lot more, but the start would still be a melee. That's what you get with that many people on the line.

All that said, if you were worried about KQ and went without so did you're counterparts. Everyone is in the same pond playing by the same rules. Sounds like a fair race to me. My only build would have been to circle the age number or something so it was evident throughout the race who to be concerned about.

Agreed. I swam IMLP in my wetsuit, as did nearly everyone else. The kicking and punching was done by everyone (well, not me, I refuse to play that anger card). I was grabbed around the waist at the first turn, looked back and it was a chick with no wetsuit. That was weird.

If you can't handle the mass start, don't do an Ironman. I had no problem with it and it was my first. It was fun. It's called Ironman, not sensitiveman.

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Empire Tri Coach
Team Gatorade Endurance
USATF Coach | NYRR Distance Pacer
Dad of twins

If you are ineligible for the awards, you are not doing a race.

If yo are using a wetsuit and are ineligible for the awards, your time is irrelevant, you are participating in an event, not a race. I don't think anyone was saying you would have 30 minutes added to your time, just that in exchange for using aid on the swim you would have 30 minutes less until the finish cutoff.

Fixed your post for you.

Hi Kevin, please don't quote my words and edit them and add to my quote. You're entitled to your opinion, but please don't modify what I typed and present it as if I typed it that way. You did not fix anything, you just misquoted someone.

I'm OK with both points of view from those that raced. Thanks. The key is I am collecting inputs on behalf of a bunch of people who raced to forward to the race organizer....and yes, I'll filter our banter from those who did not race.

Some who raced are not as active in the public domain, and don't neccessarily feel comfortable driving this feedback. Those who love the mixed start are more than welcome to provide WTC with that feedback, and WTC can decide what to do.

Dev... you wasting everyones time with this nonsense..

why not have a wet suit race on saturday and a non-wet suit race sunday...just kidding.

i have done all the north american ironman race including placid 2x and canada 2x. i did kentucky the first year when the course changed and it was non-wet suit race. i did st. george the first year when the water was cold. i did texas this year when the water was to warm. i did florida and the waves were to big. everyone complains about something. i suck at swimming (1hr20min avg swim) but deal with whatever the day brings.

if its to hot in the kitchen...than get out of the kitchen and don't do ironman. the sport has become SO WATERED down with people who should never be doing the distance with no experience.

i have to say i did do texas with a wetsuit and felt it was a huge advantage. in a wetsuit you feel like you cant drown...hell you feel even better than normal because you usually swim in a pool without one and now you have something holding you up.

its kind of like going into a boxing match...one guy wears gloves and the other doesn't....you still will get hit but one will hurt way more than the other.

i agree...it has to be all or nothing and this is coming from someone who hates swimming but will play by whatever rules they come up with. when i decide differently i wont sign up for ironman.

Fair enough on the post comment but I just wanted to note that the feedback is not 100% in agreement with the position of you and your cronies. I hate seeing comments like those of Bell Head above, this thread will scare people off IMLP and it is a great race. I was a bit concerned about the road condition based on the chatter for the past few months, yet the roads on race day were fine. And any of the locals I dealt with could not have been more welcoming.

FWIW: I started 50m off the dock, no contact whatsoever for 2 loops in 1:09. I was wearing a floatie so you can disregard me but I did have a pretty good perspective on the clean swim of many sans wetsuit guys around me, and talked with one on the bike that had a fine trip. There was open water out there.

If you are ineligible for the awards, you are not doing a race.


Winner

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Coach at KonaCoach Multisport

Thanks for the belly laugh!

I think tr-bars should only be allowed on the bike at wind speeds over 25 mph. In winds of 10-24 mph tri-bars are optional but you have to start 20 minutes behind those with road bars if the race is on the 1st or 3rd Saturday of any given month. In the 2nd and 4th Saturday, or on any Sunday, the penalty is that youmust pass the first 3 water stations and cannot carry your own water, unless you have a note from your doctor. In winds of 9 mph or less tri-bars are not legal unless you have an inseam of less then 26 inches, then you may use tri-bars, but you have to wear a helmet with a propellor.

The wetsuit rule, as written, is equal to the above. Now, if someone can come up with some equally stupid run rules we can get all three events on an equal playing field.

I have numerous observations about the swim from the point of view as a non-wetsuit swimmer. I wrote a sizeable discussion about it in my semi RR. I'd have to say I disagree with a fair amount of what you are saying about the behavior of the wetsuited swimmers. I only read the first few pages of this thread, but it seemed obvious where this was all going. With that caveat, my conclusions about the interactions and outcomes between wetsuited and non-suited swimmers are these:

1. Swimming without a wetsuit for everyone but true (lifelong, strong swimming background) swimmers will result in a slower swim split.

2. The slower swim split will move you back into the MOP. This means first of all, a lot more congestion and therefore a lot more contact. For reference about congestion, go find the old NAS results page and look at how many swimmers come out of the water between 1:08 and 1:12. It is phenomenal. I believe the increased contact is always there, its just I and many others have never seen it before from inside the middle of the MOP.

3. Per my direct observations Sunday, MOPers are pretty poor swimmers, not just in form ('cause they are slow), but in race tactics in general. Most of them appear to be oblivious to what is around them. Thus, the slapping and grabbing on legs. Hopefully, that isn't a result of drafting technique. Around turn bouys, they're just not looking up at all, and placing arm strokes to avoid other swimmers and to optimize their propulsion. Generally, there seems to be a lot more impolite behavior. I don't understand all the reasons for this. I will note that I truly love swimming in 50+ and older only waves. Everyone is much more gentlemanly at the start. People are much more astute in lining up a reasonable start position, and there is very little jostling at the start as we all seem to realize that no one is going to win the age group in the first 100 yards of the swim. This mentality clearly does not carry over to IMs, even though it is a far longer day and requires much more careful spending of matches.

4. I'm pretty much convinced that this goes on in every race and is a normal fact of life for the MOP'er. On Sunday, a fair number of fast people saw this for the first time, and it freaked them, understandably. I have a new found appreciation for the MOP swimmer as this is their IM race every time.

5. I wan't targeted because I didn't have a wetsuit, more like I was treated like everyone else in the pack.

6. The real issue is the lack of protection normally provided by the wetsuit. Fingernails don't penetrate, blows tend to bounce off more, the suit keeps you at the surface.

Regarding proposed changes and wave starts, I think the thinking is backwards to have the wet suited people start at 7:15 and finish by midnight. They already start pros before 7 a.m., and there is no issue with that because they will all essentially be done in 10 hours anyway. Likewise, individuals starting sans wetsuit in a mixed start are the people gunning for podiums and Kona slots. They are going to finish pretty quick as well (with the possible expections of the 75+ ag'ers, but even that will change in a few years time). So, move the pros up another few minutes and start the non-wetsuit swimmers off at 6:50 a.m., and the wetsuit group at 7 a.m. Otherwise, it is a nightmare for race officials to figure out whose legit at midnight (whether the 7:15 a.m. crowd still get their 17 hr day or not). Furthermore, I don't think you'll ever get the likes of Mike Reilly to go along with the plan and potentially deflating one of his and WTC's biggest schticks. If the water is warm enough that everyone is sans wetsuit, then everyone can start at 7 a.m.

Personally, I was really hating the mass start during the first two turns at LP. The problem was three fold, the swim start line at LP is the narrowest by far of the three IMs I've done, IMLP, IMC and IMMoo. It makes for a chaotic start. Second, the lake is narrow which keeps the the far end turns real close and draws everybody onto the course line. This could be workable if the lake was longer, letting the crowds sort themselves a little more, but unforunately, it's not. Lastly, they signed up 3,000 participants, of which I'm guessing at least 2,600 started, which is 30% more people than just five years ago. No one made the lake any bigger. The competition has gotten a lot fiercer as well, which leads me to my thoughts around the first two turns. I think the time has come for wave starts at LP under any circumstance. I think this means starting the faster, more competitive people first, before 7 a.m., followed by the I'm just plain slow, or I'm in the bucket list crowd or you're over 70, at 7 a.m. WTC still gets it midnight schtick, which probably is what helps fuel next year's signups. Everyone gets a much safer swim, and the brand continues to shine without future black marks such as people drowning.

My 2 cents, YMMV.

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Behold the turtle! He makes progess only when he sticks his neck out. (James Bryant Conant)
GET OFF THE F*%KING WALL!!!!!!! (Doug Stern)
Brevity is the soul of wit. (William Shakespeare)

Dev, Thanks for doing this. I hope changes can be made.

I swam IMLP this weekend without a wetsuit. I have previously swam a 53 and a 55 at LP and swam a 59 on Sunday without a wetsuit. I started in the 2nd row behind a bunch of guys wearing wetsuits.

The year I swam a 53 I followed the cable the entire way, and when I swam a 55 I was on the cable some of the time. This year out of fear, I chose to swim wide to avoid the contact. I never saw the cable until 100 yards out from the finish of the entire swim. I would not have felt safe in the mix with the wetsuit swimmers.

I think the spirit of the rule is that wetsuits are not to be worn if the water reaches a certain temperature, with exception (making it optional) so that those who truly need one either because they are trying to make the swim cutoff, or those with very little body fat who would freeze otherwise could still wear one. That just simply does not work. The reality is that those who didn't feel they had a chance at a Kona slot or podium finish, regardless of swim ability, wore a wetsuit.

I would like to see WTC change the rule so that either you can wear a wetsuit or you cannot. There is very little insentive for most of the field to go without a wetsuit. If there is to be exception it should have consequences that affect more than the top few percent of athletes, otherwise the rule is worthless and actually makes it unsafe and an unfair field for those who don't wear a wetsuit.

This is sooooo simple.

IMLP 2011 was my first 140.6 distance, I am an age grouper with no aspirations, nor the ability, to qualify for Kona.
I have done lesser distances when the suit was optional - I have competed both with and without a suit.
Being my first IM, I wore the suit. I have not had many open water swims without it so far this year (race like you train).
No big deal - there is contact with or without a mix of wet suit and non-wet suit swimmers. Unless you are first, there will always be contact no matter what one wears.
I signed up with an expectation that it would be highly unlikely the water temperature be near the wet suit OPTIONAL range and unless AlGore is right will never be in the NOT ALLOWED range.
Everyone had the OPTION to wear a suit. I was passed by some people with and without suits -- I also passed peeps in both categories. As far as the "seal clubbing" and other comments, contact will happen - deal with it! Worrying about getting even with everyone who touches you takes time and energy and is counter productive. Make a plan and stick to it. Anticipate contact. Race your race - not someone else's.
I intentionally do not sign up for events where the temperature could possibly exceed the range where a wetsuit would not be allowed - my choice and my $600-$700 and the experience that I sign up for.
WTC - don't change a thing.
If you don't want the mix of wetsuit and non-wetsuit events, pick venues in the warmer climates.

cny_mike

You've been here how long?

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"Go yell at an M&M"

I haven't read this whole thread but I wanted to share my IMLP swim experience. I was there for a Kona slot (although the swim was just the start to my worst/best IM ever). I got into the water around 6:40 and I was hurded into the group of wating swimmers. All the wetsuit guys were holding onto the dock or lined up right under the flags. After the pro's went Reilly and another guy on the dock forced them off the dock and into the water. Then a scuba diver was forcing everyone back off the flags. Well things got tight and I started bobbing up and down just to try to breathe as I didnt have any room to tread water or a suit on to hold me up. I ended up having to move out of the front and back up a couple rows just so I could breathe. When the gun went off I got punched by a fist into my left calf. That person was not swimming, they were MMA fighting. Totally uncool and un called for. After a few more punches I thought the pack would thin but it didnt. The skins and suits pace was just too equaled out and the pack never broke up. Our disadvantage adn their advantage was just too even. It didn't thin out until after the 2nd turn and even then it was pretty bunched up. The first turn bouy was insane. I got the little bobber bouy next to the triangle bashed into my goggles. Just the worst IM swim I've ever done by far of the 4 that I've done. They should have split the suits and skins up. Maybe send the skins out with the pro's or 5 minutes behind the pro's. The swim was just the beginning to massive failures in each leg for me. I'm just very happy I stuck it out and finished.

Hi Dev, (btw hope you are recovering well)

Interestingly, Ironman Germany has a different race specific wetsuit rule:

Q: Will wetsuits be allowed?
A: Yes, up to a water temperature of 24.5�C. It can be assumed that this temperature will not be exceeded and wetsuits will be allowed. In case it is forbidden to swim a wetsuit, it is also forbidden to swim any kind of swim suit with percentage of rubber and/or neoprene. The final ruling will be announced in the pre race briefing.

And speaking of German HTFU, the cutoff time is not a gentle, kinder 17 hours (midnight), but 15 hours (10:00 pm).

In 2006, it was a non-wetsuit swim. And in a chilly rain at that. At least the water seemed warm when you finally got in!

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FIST Certified Fitter
Salt Lake City, Utah

Actually, it's pretty sad we're even having this discussion. A huge part of the Ironman experience has been that all are equal at the start line, and after the race, every finisher has at least some glimmer of hope for a rolldown slot.

History teaches us that whenever there are 2 groups sharing space, there will be tension and problems.

So here we are...2 entry ways into the swim, 2 uniforms, 2 sets of rules, 2 sets of results, ....

It's a sad day.

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Coach at KonaCoach Multisport

I agree. All or none. LP was a tough swim being mixed. It should not have been an option.

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Greg C. Moriates
Owner/Coach
GCMendurance.com

Same experience as most. Not wearing a wet suit slows me down several minutes so I was back in a pack with wetsuit guys that I would not have seen otherwise. It was frustrating but, in the end, I made it just fine. It was interesting trying to figure out on the bike who had a wetsuit and who did not. I do not think the swimmers were rougher than normal (at LP); although not having a wetsuit makes the initial madness more intimidating. I just think they should have a hard temperature cut off for wetsuits.

Well said!
I agree that the skins vs. suits pace made things more equal and these two groups swam together when they would not had it been even (both wearing suits, or both not).

I failed to mention in my post earlier that I did have hands grab my leg and pull. And, grab my shoulder and pull. Both happened several times.
Both these actions were most likely unintentional, but a consequence of what happen when we have a mix. I am convinced of this based on my experience and what I read from IM TX & IM LP racers from 2011.

The thread has taken a few turns (water temp, course design, etc.) but I think from what I read is this:

• Majority agree that we all WEAR a wetsuit -or- we all do NOT.
• Only way you could wear one is...you are in the very last wave with all your rubberized friends.
  

Here is a bit of data from IMTX to provide some food for thought. After viewing several videos of the Lake Placid swim it's pretty obvious a much larger portion of that field wore wetsuits.


Males :

Percentage makeup - 36% swam with wetsuits while 64% swam without them
Mean swim time ----- 1:25:40 with wetsuit--------------1:25:33 without
Median swim time --- 1:24:35 with wetsuit--------------1:24:12 without
Average finish time--13:47:41 with wetsuit-------------12:56:58 without


Females:

Percentage makeup- 34% swam with wetsuits while 66% swam without them
Mean swim time------1:33:05 with wetsuit---------------1:28:58 without
Median swim time ---1:32:27 with wetsuit---------------1:27:20 without
Average finish time-14:38:03 with wetsuit-------------13:30:53 without

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Genetics load the gun, lifestyle pulls the trigger.

I agree. Up the temp and make it all or none. Not mixed

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Greg C. Moriates
Owner/Coach
GCMendurance.com

For what it's worth, as a business model, trying to keep everyone happy never works. Putting everyone on the same playing field works every time.

This is REALLY simple stuff.

Hugh,

Interesting data on WS vs non WS breakdown from Texas. Would be interesting to see from IMLP. Seems like the non WS would be much smaller in the colder water in LP vs Texas.

I'll wait until later this afternoon for any more accounts and then forward my summary later today to the WTC guys.

thanks to everyone for your contributions.

Dev

One thing to note is that the Texas data is at least somewhat flawed. In the very few minutes I stood and observed athletes passing over the two different timing mats there were a good number of wetsuit wearers who went over the mat for the non-wetsuit folks. There was a semicontinuous announcement being made in regards to which mat to pass over but with the loud music and Mike Riley's continuous urging for everyone to get in the water not everyone seemed to notice or at least heed the directive.

From watching several of the IMLP videos, It's obvious that the ratio was reversed there.

Hugh

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Genetics load the gun, lifestyle pulls the trigger.

Looking at the enhanced results illustrates why the mixed start is less than desirable. I had a 4:30 something T1 time which is not all that fast especially without a suit to deal with and passed 231 people in T1. That seems ridiculous.

I agree but LOWER the temp and make it all or none.

jamie

Ha ha well, you were in a race.

They need a hospital administrator running T1...the length of stay would decrease

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Coach at KonaCoach Multisport

I was at IMLP. The root cause of the swim problems wasn't wetsuit vs non-wetsuit, it's WTCs greed. They put 2500+ swimmers in a very small lake that on a good day can only handle 2000 - 2100. It was total greed on the part of WTC that caused people to be pummeled on the swim. BTW, after being kicked twice in the head on the swim, I was pulled from the race with a concussion after the first bike loop.

Thanks for posting. Sorry about your concussion...I can relate as I ended up with one that was pretty bad at IM Switzerland, but it had nothing to do with the swim. Glad your concussion did not get to the point where you were knocked out cold and lost consciousness....that would be horrible in a mass start (I was out cold for 10 min with mine, but it was on land). How did you become aware of your situation on the bike....did you end up with nausea and vomiting and headaches?

WRT to your statement about overcrowding, I don't even think the start area is great with 2000 people. It was really nice in 1999 with 1400. Of course you could end up with much less than 1400 even with 2600 starters if there were waves as they have in some Ironmans.

Dev

I've only been in small mass starts and have only had a few smacks to the head, so I am lucky. I'm a slow swimmer, so it works OK for me to hang in back at the start.

Thanks! I'm feeling a lot better.
LP was my fourth IM and I qualified for and i'm going to Kona this year so LP wasn't my first rodeo. But it was the worst open water swim I have ever experienced. Maybe it was because I'm a female and I just couldn't mix it up with guys who outweighed me by 40 or 50 pounds.
When I got out of the water, I had a headache and was dizzy. When I started riding the neausa began. I would stop at each aide station to try to clear my head but as soon as i started riding everything went south again. When I got back to LP, I talked to family and they urged me to go to the med tent. The doc examed me for a whole 30 seconds and then took my chip. She made the right call because I was totally out of it.

You qualified for Kona by being pulled out of the race???? I don't care about Kona, and I'm happy for you that you are qualified if that's your deal, I'm just trying to decipher your post.

Have a blast at Kona!

I qualified at Wisconsin last year, sorry I wasn't more clear.

You are such a f'n tool. Biggest one in the shed.

She mentioned that she had done 3 other IM's prior, so obviously one of those was such that it got her in to Kona this year.

But thanks for yet another insightful post. Troll.

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float , hammer , and jog

either be consistent for everybody...or have an elite wave and a wetsuit wave if they want to leave things as they are. It shouldn't be such a big deal to do the latter option...and if getting more people to the starting line means having a wetsuit optional temperature range, so be it. just have different waves then. it's not a bad thing to encourage people to do an ironman.

How are you effected by that option?

Hey Dev - I swam IMLP without a wetsuit this past weekend.
All of my OWS this summer have been 1:08 ~ 1:10ish, which is what I figured to go at LP with the draft.
I came in right under 1:20.
I swam out to the flags probably 25m or so from the dock.
Treaded water just fine for the first couple of minutes, then the wetsuits showed up.
Similar story to others - I got really confined and pushed around, none of which seemed intentional however.
It was really, really tight quarters in the last couple of minutes - I had to tread water pretty low just to be able to move my feet and hands - I found it much easier to do more of a bob under and then out of the water than to try to keep my head up constantly.
I thought the start was pretty clean actually, it was a couple of minutes into the race when folks started coming over my back, forcing my legs down.
Again, it did not feel like a boxing match or any of this was intentional, it just seemed that in the jostle the wetsuit swimmer is going to win the battle of position - they were just way more on top of the water than I was - no way I was going to stay on top. On four or five occasions I was forced to vertical (with my feet down).

While I too think a much more black and white rule concerning wetsuit usage would be optimum, Under the current rules I think separating waves would be the best solution when wetsuits are not allowed for AG awards. Start pros earliest, then AG competitors, then everyone else at 7am - keeping the midnight cutoff for everyone.

I wonder if such a scenario would have more folks opting out of wetsuits?

Someone else mentioned this, but I'd consider the option of a "Kona hopeful" wave that goes at 8:30 or 9:00. There would be a lot more traffic on the bike and run, but presumably thinned out by the time the faster racers started overtaking. Personally, I think it's great that Ironman is for everyone, but I'd rather toe the line directly with the people I'm competing against. Rather like the elite amateur division. WTC could even require a qualifying time in a half-distance race (although they'd probably insist it be a WTC 70.3....)

Downside would be a huge gap between the pros and first amateur finishers.

But letting Kona hopefuls (with different wetsuit criteria) start even 10 minutes before everyone else would certainly improve crowding in the swim.

My experience was similar to most. Expected to be around 1:05 with a wetsuit, but swam without one.Thinking I would do around 1:10. Started halfway out from the dock, second row. I was absolutely pummeled the first lap. Additionally, was pushed down a couple of times and you just don't bounce up the same as with neoprene. Did the first lap in 34 plus change and thought the second lap would be better. Unfortunately, I fought calf cramps the entire second lap. Only a theory, but I think it was because of so much more kicking to keep body position and prevent people from passing me who would normally be in the rear view mirror. Out of the water in 1:15. No whining here, I still had a great day, but it was a little tough seeing how crowded T1 and the first half loop of the bike was. Passed a lot of people that I would have been out of the water in front of. IMHO, a two wave start would have helped a lot, but then again, part of IM is that mass combat start.

Possibly the US and WTC need to look to Australia for guidance
Triathlon Australia's Rulebook
2.4
The temperature limits for the use of wetsuits and maximum time to be in the water for the varying swim distances are as follows:
A
http://www.triathlon.org.au/...ompetition+Rules.pdf
Trust me - when it gets warm, wetsuit = no start.

But, but ,but,but, we know that the US triathletes are so much leaner than those fatty Aussies so they need a warmer cutoff than the Aussies;)

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Genetics load the gun, lifestyle pulls the trigger.

I agree -- and I only recently experienced this aggressive style of swimming.

Who pulls feet? How is that remotely acceptable? I guess I can see how swimming over people is a result of a crowded start, pulling feet is jack*ssery.

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"At the end he was staggering into parked cars and accusing his support-van driver of trying to poison him." A description of John Dunbar in the 1st Hawaii Iron Man

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Someone else mentioned this, but I'd consider the option of a "Kona hopeful" wave that goes at 8:30 or 9:00. There would be a lot more traffic on the bike and run, but presumably thinned out by the time the faster racers started overtaking. Personally, I think it's great that Ironman is for everyone, but I'd rather toe the line directly with the people I'm competing against. Rather like the elite amateur division. WTC could even require a qualifying time in a half-distance race (although they'd probably insist it be a WTC 70.3....)

Downside would be a huge gap between the pros and first amateur finishers.

But letting Kona hopefuls (with different wetsuit criteria) start even 10 minutes before everyone else would certainly improve crowding in the swim.[/quote]
I had mentioned this before myself. There is no reason why they cannot do waves of maybe 750-1000 and start them 5-10 minutes apart going from fastest to slowest. You would seed yourself based upon your estimated swim time and be grouped according to color. So if you are in the "Green" group and you started at 7:05 you have until 12:05 to finish. I think this would allow them to make the groups safer and more manageable and still have that mass start appeal.

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Titanium faces rock!

Wheww!!! Couldn't believe I read through this entire thing!

Dev,

I'll put in my little bit of perspective despite being late into this thread. I did IMLP this year (and last) in a wetsuit and I felt this year's swim was a little bit more "rough" than last year. IN MY OPINION, however, it had little to do with a WS / No WS race. As a bit of a backgrounder, I am a lifetime swimmer and I have done my share of Half Irons, and many open water swim events (non ironman) in the past decade. I'm not a fast swimmer (bad shoulder) but I am quite comfortable in the water and under any condition I have never felt I would "drown." In these events, there have been swimmers on WS and without. In my opinion, the character of these races didn't change much by the ratio of WS and non-WS users. It has more to do with density.

As for IMLP, here are my experiences on both years:

IMLP 2010: It was my first Ironman. Wore a wetsuit and started 2 minutes after the official start. Had a fairly smooth swim but it certainly involved the the occasional bumping, nudging and hitting but I totally expected this in an IM swim. I kind of expected the battlefest in the water due to my open water race experiences. 1st lap was 38 mins (36 if you net out the 2 minute wait). 2nd lap was a little smoother and got out at 38 minutes again. Fairly consistent swim, mostly (about 70%) swimming close to the cable.

IMLP 2011: Wore a wetsuit and started 1 minute 45 seconds after the official start. From the start, the swim was "rough". Lots and lots of bodies and traffic - both WS clad and non-WS. I was far from the cable but felt a much higher density of swimmers. Couldn't figure out why it was a lot "rougher" but I discounted that (like in 2010) to be part of an Ironman swim experience. Got into the usual bumping, nudging and kicking. 1st lap was 38 minutes (would be 36 if you net out the wait). 2nd lap was not much different than the first lap (38 minutes). Very dense swimming, and this had no correlation to WS / no WS swimmers.

Conclusion: The roughness during these events is more correlated to the density of the swimmers in the water. With a higher density comes that more blows and hits. Once you accept that as part of any open water swimming event and shrugged it off, it won't be much of a big deal. That's my 4 cents on this.


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Conclusion: The roughness during these events is more correlated to the density of the swimmers in the water. With a higher density comes that more blows and hits. Once you accept that as part of any open water swimming event and shrugged it off, it won't be much of a big deal. That's my 4 cents on this.


Exactly...and I'm going to postulate that the mixing of wetsuit and non-wetsuit swimmers on the same course at the same time is THE NUMBER ONE REASON that the swimmers at Texas and Lake Placid experienced more than the usual contact this year.

People on this thread who didn't experience either swim try to think logically about why it would make such a difference.

Well you can wonder why logically rubbernecking causes so much havoc in a congested road of vehicles...when only a minority of people actually want to slow down and look...

So you have 2 groups of swimmers together that swim differently and have a different comfort level...and you get a situation where a minority of swimmers get in difficulty (get pushed down, stop, check up, etc.)...so what does that do to the flow of traffic...yep, you guessed it...slows everybody down, gets everybody more upset, etc...just like with auto traffic/rubbernecking

Bottom line is that all the theories and trying to understand etc. don't change the fact that it just doesn't work!

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Coach at KonaCoach Multisport

late to this party cause I was sweating my ass off in 95 degress heat riding over 500 miles last week while eating such Iowan delicacies such as pork chops on a stick, walking tacos (don't ask), and supporting the corn growers of the midwest (RAGBRAI) anyone?).

anyhoo, did IMTX. i wore a suit only because I had round deux of back surgery in February and had not recovered my core stability enough to allow me to kick while swimming. i also planned to dropout about 80 miles into the ride because again, I knew my lumbar was not ready for more, so wearing the suit was an easy choice.

personally the IMTX swim was not a shitshow for me. i had probably the least contact in any IM swim of the 9 I've done so far. considering my back situation, i was very nervous about someone hitting or grabbing my leg during the swim, so i was conscientious to stay clear of the melee. i was in the water about 10 minutes before the start and swam out enough from the shore. what stunned me was the folks entering the water in the non-wetsuit queue wearing WS?!?!. i floated there watching athlete after athlete cross the wrong timing mat. furthermore, i could not believe the HUGE number of people still lolly gagging on shore when the gun went off. what were they thinking? wetsuit and non-wetsuit alike, just walking casually to the water and the race was on.

anyhow, i had free and clear water all the way. even in the canal of death. i was out in 1:12 (PW swim, but hey, i swam like 10 times before the race).

i would like to say i was worried about the possibility of dehydration of wearing a full wetsuit, in such "warm" water, but i was totally comfortable in that 78 degree water in a full wetsuit. i was shocked at how comfortable it was. Dev, you know me, i weigh like 120 pounds and get cold really easily (hence my shitty ski race times in under 25 degrees :) so it a little daunting to think of swimming in colder water and being in there 10 minutes longer. i guess i get to find out next year.

if WTC is going to continue this wesuit rule, i would support splitting the wearers from the non wearers, to eliminate the possibility of cheating for Kona slots (is WTC going by the honor system here, or are the reviewing video to ensure those that take slots really did not wear a WS?) and to make it less dangerous for all. i have to admit that as someone prone to hypothermia, i'd like to see the 78 degree come back.

I have worked with Charlie Crawford at USAT as a Ref, and also ref'fed 70.3 Lake Stevens and Boise, so I know the guys there too. let me know if i can help.

PS. I hope you are healing well. Best Wishes, Dude!

Sue

I think your thoughts encompass the universal consensus of those that went without wetsuit.

Also to those who did wear wetsuit and are seemingly opposed to a "competitor's wave" 10 or 15 minutes early and wrecking the "legacy of the mass start that makes Ironman unique", keep in mind that even if you take out the non wetsuit folks, you still end up with a "MASS START" of 1800-2200 people. View it more like a small wave start for pros, a larger wave start of Kona Qual and podium hopefulls and then a MASS start race of folks in rubber :-)

Sto, glad you back is doing well. Feel free to talk to Charlie on this topic. It would be greatly appreciated.

I doubt that this issue is about to come up in another Ironman until Texas next year, unless of course Wisconson stays really really hot. Regensburg will be pretty clear cut...either everyone will be in or not in wetsuits, per the rules that we have seen in Frankfurt.

Louisville will be no wetsuit, IMC will be wetsuit, Wales wetsuit, Kona no wetsuit, Florida wetsuit, Arizona wetsuit and Western Oz wetsuit (from what I am aware of)...then South African and New Zealand will both be wetsuit, which brings things back to Texas.

well said!

Are you really fucking serious? 76 is too cold for most people? If wetsuits are allowed in 78 / 79 in triathlons for ranking I won't do any triathlons anymore because I will be handicapped when others are in black (the best racing temperature for me is about 65 - 68 for 1.5 km). Do you want a black Fran Crippen on news?!

In many part of the world the water never goes above 70 even in the middle of the summer, and a lot of people do long distance swimming (in terms of hours) in the 60s.

Let me award you the Slowtwitch Golden Shovel award for singlehandedly resurrecting multiple more-than-5-year-old threads in a single day. Keep up the good work!