In my opinion, you're way out of line here...there are many solutions to the problem, Dev. Not just the one's the
"The Great and Powerful Dev" deems appropriate.

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"Good genes are not a requirement, just the obsession to beat ones brains out daily"...the Griz

Hi there....it's a long thread and perhaps you have not read everything. I'm not against changing the rules. The intent of this thread was not to fight that battle. Glad if others want to take up that cause. I just wanted to collect feedback from racers who went with no suit and then provide suggestions to WTC for a better format for mixed starts.

not nearly as experienced or strong a swimmer but similar issues. i swam about 1:10 and it sucked the entire way. the canal was a as bad as the start. the bike was also a bummer. too many cars. run was fun and we did get lucky with the weather

Oh and I blame all of you folks that peed in the lake Thursday, Friday and Saturday for raising the water temp beyond wetsuit legal. If you can believe what you hear it was only a half a degree over. Bastards ;-)

I am BOP'er IM Age Grouper. I did IM TX without wetsuit. I waited until 6:59 AM to enter the water. They were herding everyone in @ 6:45 AM. I felt that without wetsuit I was at a distinct disadvantage to tread water for 15 minutes while wetsuiters could float.
This was my 3rd IM and first sans wet suit. The swim start was the most scrum like I have ever done but I believe due more to the narrow course that wetsuit versus non wetsuit.
Again feel the advantage was in energy conservation at start. And I am not a Kona contender just felt if they said no wet suit OK will go by the rules.

I haven't bothered to read the thread, but all the pissing and moaning is a bit overrated. It's clearly stated in the rules/race docs what the policy is and the way I see it everyone that entered is agreeing to play by those rules. I wore a wetsuit as did the majority of the others in the race. I feel for the small percentile who were on the fence and had to decide, but that's part of playing the game. I think I saw 2 people out there without wetties on while I was swimming. I treated them just like I would any other fellow competitor. When your the minority it's easy to feel that it was the wetsuit clad people pounding you, but that's likely due to the tiny number of non wetsuit swimmers out there.

As for safety, I think it would be far more unsafe to force everyone to swim without. There are some mediocre swimmers that need that help, I was once one of them. Yes it would string out the field a lot more, but the start would still be a melee. That's what you get with that many people on the line.

All that said, if you were worried about KQ and went without so did you're counterparts. Everyone is in the same pond playing by the same rules. Sounds like a fair race to me. My only build would have been to circle the age number or something so it was evident throughout the race who to be concerned about.

Agreed. I swam IMLP in my wetsuit, as did nearly everyone else. The kicking and punching was done by everyone (well, not me, I refuse to play that anger card). I was grabbed around the waist at the first turn, looked back and it was a chick with no wetsuit. That was weird.

If you can't handle the mass start, don't do an Ironman. I had no problem with it and it was my first. It was fun. It's called Ironman, not sensitiveman.

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Empire Tri Coach
Team Gatorade Endurance
USATF Coach | NYRR Distance Pacer
Dad of twins

If you are ineligible for the awards, you are not doing a race.

If yo are using a wetsuit and are ineligible for the awards, your time is irrelevant, you are participating in an event, not a race. I don't think anyone was saying you would have 30 minutes added to your time, just that in exchange for using aid on the swim you would have 30 minutes less until the finish cutoff.

Fixed your post for you.

Hi Kevin, please don't quote my words and edit them and add to my quote. You're entitled to your opinion, but please don't modify what I typed and present it as if I typed it that way. You did not fix anything, you just misquoted someone.

I'm OK with both points of view from those that raced. Thanks. The key is I am collecting inputs on behalf of a bunch of people who raced to forward to the race organizer....and yes, I'll filter our banter from those who did not race.

Some who raced are not as active in the public domain, and don't neccessarily feel comfortable driving this feedback. Those who love the mixed start are more than welcome to provide WTC with that feedback, and WTC can decide what to do.

Dev... you wasting everyones time with this nonsense..

why not have a wet suit race on saturday and a non-wet suit race sunday...just kidding.

i have done all the north american ironman race including placid 2x and canada 2x. i did kentucky the first year when the course changed and it was non-wet suit race. i did st. george the first year when the water was cold. i did texas this year when the water was to warm. i did florida and the waves were to big. everyone complains about something. i suck at swimming (1hr20min avg swim) but deal with whatever the day brings.

if its to hot in the kitchen...than get out of the kitchen and don't do ironman. the sport has become SO WATERED down with people who should never be doing the distance with no experience.

i have to say i did do texas with a wetsuit and felt it was a huge advantage. in a wetsuit you feel like you cant drown...hell you feel even better than normal because you usually swim in a pool without one and now you have something holding you up.

its kind of like going into a boxing match...one guy wears gloves and the other doesn't....you still will get hit but one will hurt way more than the other.

i agree...it has to be all or nothing and this is coming from someone who hates swimming but will play by whatever rules they come up with. when i decide differently i wont sign up for ironman.

Fair enough on the post comment but I just wanted to note that the feedback is not 100% in agreement with the position of you and your cronies. I hate seeing comments like those of Bell Head above, this thread will scare people off IMLP and it is a great race. I was a bit concerned about the road condition based on the chatter for the past few months, yet the roads on race day were fine. And any of the locals I dealt with could not have been more welcoming.

FWIW: I started 50m off the dock, no contact whatsoever for 2 loops in 1:09. I was wearing a floatie so you can disregard me but I did have a pretty good perspective on the clean swim of many sans wetsuit guys around me, and talked with one on the bike that had a fine trip. There was open water out there.

If you are ineligible for the awards, you are not doing a race.


Winner

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Coach at KonaCoach Multisport

Thanks for the belly laugh!

I think tr-bars should only be allowed on the bike at wind speeds over 25 mph. In winds of 10-24 mph tri-bars are optional but you have to start 20 minutes behind those with road bars if the race is on the 1st or 3rd Saturday of any given month. In the 2nd and 4th Saturday, or on any Sunday, the penalty is that youmust pass the first 3 water stations and cannot carry your own water, unless you have a note from your doctor. In winds of 9 mph or less tri-bars are not legal unless you have an inseam of less then 26 inches, then you may use tri-bars, but you have to wear a helmet with a propellor.

The wetsuit rule, as written, is equal to the above. Now, if someone can come up with some equally stupid run rules we can get all three events on an equal playing field.

I have numerous observations about the swim from the point of view as a non-wetsuit swimmer. I wrote a sizeable discussion about it in my semi RR. I'd have to say I disagree with a fair amount of what you are saying about the behavior of the wetsuited swimmers. I only read the first few pages of this thread, but it seemed obvious where this was all going. With that caveat, my conclusions about the interactions and outcomes between wetsuited and non-suited swimmers are these:

1. Swimming without a wetsuit for everyone but true (lifelong, strong swimming background) swimmers will result in a slower swim split.

2. The slower swim split will move you back into the MOP. This means first of all, a lot more congestion and therefore a lot more contact. For reference about congestion, go find the old NAS results page and look at how many swimmers come out of the water between 1:08 and 1:12. It is phenomenal. I believe the increased contact is always there, its just I and many others have never seen it before from inside the middle of the MOP.

3. Per my direct observations Sunday, MOPers are pretty poor swimmers, not just in form ('cause they are slow), but in race tactics in general. Most of them appear to be oblivious to what is around them. Thus, the slapping and grabbing on legs. Hopefully, that isn't a result of drafting technique. Around turn bouys, they're just not looking up at all, and placing arm strokes to avoid other swimmers and to optimize their propulsion. Generally, there seems to be a lot more impolite behavior. I don't understand all the reasons for this. I will note that I truly love swimming in 50+ and older only waves. Everyone is much more gentlemanly at the start. People are much more astute in lining up a reasonable start position, and there is very little jostling at the start as we all seem to realize that no one is going to win the age group in the first 100 yards of the swim. This mentality clearly does not carry over to IMs, even though it is a far longer day and requires much more careful spending of matches.

4. I'm pretty much convinced that this goes on in every race and is a normal fact of life for the MOP'er. On Sunday, a fair number of fast people saw this for the first time, and it freaked them, understandably. I have a new found appreciation for the MOP swimmer as this is their IM race every time.

5. I wan't targeted because I didn't have a wetsuit, more like I was treated like everyone else in the pack.

6. The real issue is the lack of protection normally provided by the wetsuit. Fingernails don't penetrate, blows tend to bounce off more, the suit keeps you at the surface.

Regarding proposed changes and wave starts, I think the thinking is backwards to have the wet suited people start at 7:15 and finish by midnight. They already start pros before 7 a.m., and there is no issue with that because they will all essentially be done in 10 hours anyway. Likewise, individuals starting sans wetsuit in a mixed start are the people gunning for podiums and Kona slots. They are going to finish pretty quick as well (with the possible expections of the 75+ ag'ers, but even that will change in a few years time). So, move the pros up another few minutes and start the non-wetsuit swimmers off at 6:50 a.m., and the wetsuit group at 7 a.m. Otherwise, it is a nightmare for race officials to figure out whose legit at midnight (whether the 7:15 a.m. crowd still get their 17 hr day or not). Furthermore, I don't think you'll ever get the likes of Mike Reilly to go along with the plan and potentially deflating one of his and WTC's biggest schticks. If the water is warm enough that everyone is sans wetsuit, then everyone can start at 7 a.m.

Personally, I was really hating the mass start during the first two turns at LP. The problem was three fold, the swim start line at LP is the narrowest by far of the three IMs I've done, IMLP, IMC and IMMoo. It makes for a chaotic start. Second, the lake is narrow which keeps the the far end turns real close and draws everybody onto the course line. This could be workable if the lake was longer, letting the crowds sort themselves a little more, but unforunately, it's not. Lastly, they signed up 3,000 participants, of which I'm guessing at least 2,600 started, which is 30% more people than just five years ago. No one made the lake any bigger. The competition has gotten a lot fiercer as well, which leads me to my thoughts around the first two turns. I think the time has come for wave starts at LP under any circumstance. I think this means starting the faster, more competitive people first, before 7 a.m., followed by the I'm just plain slow, or I'm in the bucket list crowd or you're over 70, at 7 a.m. WTC still gets it midnight schtick, which probably is what helps fuel next year's signups. Everyone gets a much safer swim, and the brand continues to shine without future black marks such as people drowning.

My 2 cents, YMMV.

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Behold the turtle! He makes progess only when he sticks his neck out. (James Bryant Conant)
GET OFF THE F*%KING WALL!!!!!!! (Doug Stern)
Brevity is the soul of wit. (William Shakespeare)

Dev, Thanks for doing this. I hope changes can be made.

I swam IMLP this weekend without a wetsuit. I have previously swam a 53 and a 55 at LP and swam a 59 on Sunday without a wetsuit. I started in the 2nd row behind a bunch of guys wearing wetsuits.

The year I swam a 53 I followed the cable the entire way, and when I swam a 55 I was on the cable some of the time. This year out of fear, I chose to swim wide to avoid the contact. I never saw the cable until 100 yards out from the finish of the entire swim. I would not have felt safe in the mix with the wetsuit swimmers.

I think the spirit of the rule is that wetsuits are not to be worn if the water reaches a certain temperature, with exception (making it optional) so that those who truly need one either because they are trying to make the swim cutoff, or those with very little body fat who would freeze otherwise could still wear one. That just simply does not work. The reality is that those who didn't feel they had a chance at a Kona slot or podium finish, regardless of swim ability, wore a wetsuit.

I would like to see WTC change the rule so that either you can wear a wetsuit or you cannot. There is very little insentive for most of the field to go without a wetsuit. If there is to be exception it should have consequences that affect more than the top few percent of athletes, otherwise the rule is worthless and actually makes it unsafe and an unfair field for those who don't wear a wetsuit.

This is sooooo simple.

IMLP 2011 was my first 140.6 distance, I am an age grouper with no aspirations, nor the ability, to qualify for Kona.
I have done lesser distances when the suit was optional - I have competed both with and without a suit.
Being my first IM, I wore the suit. I have not had many open water swims without it so far this year (race like you train).
No big deal - there is contact with or without a mix of wet suit and non-wet suit swimmers. Unless you are first, there will always be contact no matter what one wears.
I signed up with an expectation that it would be highly unlikely the water temperature be near the wet suit OPTIONAL range and unless AlGore is right will never be in the NOT ALLOWED range.
Everyone had the OPTION to wear a suit. I was passed by some people with and without suits -- I also passed peeps in both categories. As far as the "seal clubbing" and other comments, contact will happen - deal with it! Worrying about getting even with everyone who touches you takes time and energy and is counter productive. Make a plan and stick to it. Anticipate contact. Race your race - not someone else's.
I intentionally do not sign up for events where the temperature could possibly exceed the range where a wetsuit would not be allowed - my choice and my $600-$700 and the experience that I sign up for.
WTC - don't change a thing.
If you don't want the mix of wetsuit and non-wetsuit events, pick venues in the warmer climates.

cny_mike

You've been here how long?

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"Go yell at an M&M"

I haven't read this whole thread but I wanted to share my IMLP swim experience. I was there for a Kona slot (although the swim was just the start to my worst/best IM ever). I got into the water around 6:40 and I was hurded into the group of wating swimmers. All the wetsuit guys were holding onto the dock or lined up right under the flags. After the pro's went Reilly and another guy on the dock forced them off the dock and into the water. Then a scuba diver was forcing everyone back off the flags. Well things got tight and I started bobbing up and down just to try to breathe as I didnt have any room to tread water or a suit on to hold me up. I ended up having to move out of the front and back up a couple rows just so I could breathe. When the gun went off I got punched by a fist into my left calf. That person was not swimming, they were MMA fighting. Totally uncool and un called for. After a few more punches I thought the pack would thin but it didnt. The skins and suits pace was just too equaled out and the pack never broke up. Our disadvantage adn their advantage was just too even. It didn't thin out until after the 2nd turn and even then it was pretty bunched up. The first turn bouy was insane. I got the little bobber bouy next to the triangle bashed into my goggles. Just the worst IM swim I've ever done by far of the 4 that I've done. They should have split the suits and skins up. Maybe send the skins out with the pro's or 5 minutes behind the pro's. The swim was just the beginning to massive failures in each leg for me. I'm just very happy I stuck it out and finished.

Hi Dev, (btw hope you are recovering well)

Interestingly, Ironman Germany has a different race specific wetsuit rule:

Q: Will wetsuits be allowed?
A: Yes, up to a water temperature of 24.5°C. It can be assumed that this temperature will not be exceeded and wetsuits will be allowed. In case it is forbidden to swim a wetsuit, it is also forbidden to swim any kind of swim suit with percentage of rubber and/or neoprene. The final ruling will be announced in the pre race briefing.

And speaking of German HTFU, the cutoff time is not a gentle, kinder 17 hours (midnight), but 15 hours (10:00 pm).

In 2006, it was a non-wetsuit swim. And in a chilly rain at that. At least the water seemed warm when you finally got in!

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FIST Certified Fitter
Salt Lake City, Utah

Actually, it's pretty sad we're even having this discussion. A huge part of the Ironman experience has been that all are equal at the start line, and after the race, every finisher has at least some glimmer of hope for a rolldown slot.

History teaches us that whenever there are 2 groups sharing space, there will be tension and problems.

So here we are...2 entry ways into the swim, 2 uniforms, 2 sets of rules, 2 sets of results, ....

It's a sad day.

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Coach at KonaCoach Multisport

I agree. All or none. LP was a tough swim being mixed. It should not have been an option.

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Greg C. Moriates
Owner/Coach
GCMendurance.com