I think the RD or Committee should publish what the temp allowing wetsuits is, at where on the course it will be measured, and how deep under the water it will be taken, at what time it will be posted, and what criteria will be a go or no go with the suits. This waffle pattern of yes, no,maybe is getting dangerous and someone is going to get hurt. Allowing some people to wear a suit but no awards, mixed into people racing without suits is just wrong. Make a rule and hold to it. If a swimmer wonders if they can make the distance without a wetsuit, they are in the wrong event, period. I have been a race director of a couple dozen tris,believe me , it is no fun, but changing your rules from what is published is just always a bad idea. You would not believe what folks have asked me 10 min to a start. Pullbouys are ok right? Can I use a kickboard. Can I swim with a rescue tube dragging behind me? If I go under that paddle boarder will save me won't they?

I have never been in court about a swim incident, but have been twice on a bike and run incident. Any movement from the normal standard is asking to get grilled by an attorney . Depositions are no fun.

As a customer you get what you pay for. If you see a waffle clause on mixed swimmers and wetsuit swimmers, just put your money elsewhere. I know Ironman Brand Events are hard to get into, but I am 100% in favor of supporting good events even the mom and pop ones if you don't like what some event is doing to you. If something seems wrong on an application, it probably is.

I get what you are saying, but unless YOU want to do something about changing WTC's mind about the mixed start, you're not achieving anything here other than coming across as whining.

If you're willing to take up the cause of having uniform all wetsuit or no wetsuit starts, please go for it.

Dev,

As someone who works in the wetsuit business and is also a good friend of WTC Head Referee, Jimmy Riccitello, I have actually spent a considerable amount of time on the phone with Jimmy discussing exactly this - well, not wetsuit wearers beating up on non-wetsuit wearers, but the whole change in the upper-limit cut-off and the ramifications of the change. I have also spent a considerable amount of time on the phone in discussions with Charlie Crawford at USAT, the other principal player on this, and what Charlie and USAT's take on all this is.

By all means collect your data/info, and I would be happy to send it on to Jimmy myself directly!

---

---

Steve Fleck @stevefleck | Blog

Hi Fleck, by all means feel free to push the WTC for the all or nothing solution. I'm not willing to push an elephant uphill with a rope....would rather pick my battles to where there may be more success.

It's great that you are in the wetsuit busines, but quite frankly whether the start is all wetsuit, mixed or no wetsuit, it has zero impact on sales as all athletes will purchase one anyway. Your presence in the wetsuit business has no impact on the rule, or the application of the rule, nor race day logistics. If you can use your personal contacts to affect change in a positive manner that is awesome.

I think this goes far beyond Jimmy. Jimmy just enforces things. He's not the one setting the rules nor managing race day logistics. I'd love it if Jimmy can drive some common sense into how things are implemented for this particular situation.

Look at where the money is coming from and that's who WTC needs to cater to. Guys like you and I who do multiple Ironmans over our lives are irrelevent. They need 1000 newbies at each event if not their market dies fairly quickly. Those guys probably will want a wetsuit, and quite frankly 76F is still pretty cold....I'd have to swim moderately hard to not be hypothermic in around 65 minutes.....skinny runner types in the water for 100 minutes with no wetsuit in 76F are going to be pretty cold at the end.

I just did IM Lake Placid without a wetsuit. Typically, I swim high 50's without a wetsuit, low 50's with. I was very disappointed in the swim. I was stuck in a group of six inferior wetsuit swimmers. No etiquette. Constantly hammering my feet. Could not hold a line, cross-crossing in front of me. Banging into my side. Interlocking arms. These type of swimmers belong behind me.

Solution. An official mass start at 7am. A second "unofficial" start with a big time delay ( 30 minutes) without changes to cutoff times. Clock starts at 7am for everyone Continue to exempt older swimmers, 70 and up.

Or, maybe, you should consider IM Louisville where there is a time trial start and not a mass start...........

---

Pink? Maybe. Maybe not. You decide.

Why are people saying the clock starts at 7am for everyone but the wetsuit swimmers get a 15 or 30 minute time delayed penalty? That's a monumentally fucking stupid solution. People keep talking about wetsuit legal vs illegal. The only time it's actually really illegal is over 83.8 degrees. Otherwise, from 76.1 to 83.8 it's just an award/slot eligibility issue which isn't a reality for 95% of racers anyway.

They sent (at IMTX anyway) wetsuit and non-wetsuit people through different timing chip corrals. At the very least they could do a delayed start with the wetsuit folks starting at 7:15 or 7:30 or whatever by going through that corral. The penalty would be the cutoff would still be midnight. So the slow folks only get 16:30 or 16:45 or whatever to finish the race. I think that's a doable solution. I was actually surprised they had both groups go at the same time at IMTX. It was my opinion the Kona chasers and HTFU crowd should not have to dance on the same floor as the wetsuit folks.

I agree with your premise, I just think it's a little high and mighty of you to say the wetsuit folks should have 30 minutes added to their race time.

---

Favorite Gear: Dimond | Cadex | Desoto Sport | Hoka One One

This is too simple.

The temp cutoff is what it is, make it whatever ya'll agree on. After that, NO WETSUITS. That's what a cutoff IS.

I'm one of those guys who gains from a wetsuit, but I can swim the distance without it. If you can't, you shouldn't be in the event.

I don't care what comments follow. I'll say it again, IF YOU CAN'T SWIM THE DISTANCE WITHOUT A WETSUIT YOU HAVE NO BUSINESS IN THE EVENT.

100% agree with every single thing you typed.

The problem is that WTC and USAT made it complicated by having three rules within a rule. It should be as simple as a one temperature cutoff limit to rule them all. Instead they have three fucking rules within a rule. If it's x you can do this, if it's between y and z you can do that, and if it's over z you can do the other thing.

---

Favorite Gear: Dimond | Cadex | Desoto Sport | Hoka One One

Why are people saying the clock starts at 7am for everyone but the wetsuit swimmers get a 15 or 30 minute time delayed penalty? ..... At the very least they could do a delayed start with the wetsuit folks starting at 7:15 or 7:30 or whatever by going through that corral. The penalty would be the cutoff would still be midnight. So the slow folks only get 16:30 or 16:45 or whatever to finish the race. I think that's a doable solution.
_____________
Are you disagreeing and agreeing about an delay start?

---

------------------
@brooksdoughtie
USAT-L2,Y&J; USAC-L2
http://www.aomultisport.com

I'm agreeing about separate starting times... not penalizing the wetsuit folks 30 minutes.

---

Favorite Gear: Dimond | Cadex | Desoto Sport | Hoka One One

So they start 30 mins later and get til 12:30 am to finish?

---

------------------
@brooksdoughtie
USAT-L2,Y&J; USAC-L2
http://www.aomultisport.com

No, they still must adhere to the midnight cutoff time.

---

Favorite Gear: Dimond | Cadex | Desoto Sport | Hoka One One

Then that is the 30 min "penalty" people were referring to (it's not an actual "penalty")?

---

------------------
@brooksdoughtie
USAT-L2,Y&J; USAC-L2
http://www.aomultisport.com

If the clock starts at 7am for everyone per the proposal I quoted above AND the wetsuit folks don't start until 7:30... how is that not adding 30 minutes to their swim times?

---

Favorite Gear: Dimond | Cadex | Desoto Sport | Hoka One One

How is that any different than the proposal you stated with your own solution though? I'm not sure I get the difference. You say they should do a 15/30 min delay yet still have the 12 midnight time cutoff. So isnt that exactly what you quoted and disagreed with?


Oh, are you talking about the swim cutoff needs to be 2:50 now (to account for the 30 mins extra wait for the wetsuit swimmers)?

---

------------------
@brooksdoughtie
USAT-L2,Y&J; USAC-L2
http://www.aomultisport.com

I guess we're quibbling on that dude's sort of ambiguous "the clock starts at 7am for everyone" statement. I read it to mean everyone's timing chip starts at 7am but the wetsuit swimmers don't get to start swimming until 7:30. He probably did mean the 17 hour race clock starts at 7 am, not the wetsuit swimmers chip time.

I'm sick and tired. I'm allowed an obtuse moment or two. :-)

---

Favorite Gear: Dimond | Cadex | Desoto Sport | Hoka One One

So are you changing your signature to "Sink, Hammer and Jog" then?

---

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Today is the second day of the rest of your life if you started keeping track yesterday

will it? IM texas doesn't.

this is what I don't get. Why the hell does someone who's can swim around an hour (I know you didn't say your time, but I gotta guess it wasn't that much slower than an hour and change based on the times you gave) wear a wetsuit (not you but the pack you were in)? Seriously, where did they line up? Why didn't people heckle them to the back of the pack. I would have been pissed (and told them) if I was on the front line and someone with a wetsuit was next to me.

Unless you started not up front, in that case, well, that's partially your fault. If you start in a big pack it's hard to get out of, if they are wearing wetsuits or not.

But I still don't see how people wearing wetsuits were around someone who is such a strong swimmer.

Is this a wet suit problem, or is it really a problem of to many people in to little of water? Wave starts or less people would seem to be a way of dealing with this. Tim

only once... Olympic Distance. I was in an elite AG wave and at the last minute they made it non-wetsuit for us, but wetsuit for everyone else. Waves were separated by 1 minute, but in actuality the 2nd wave got into the water right behind us. Sure enough, 3 minutes into the swim I'm in the mosh pit of the first turn in my own race and the lead wetsuiters start coming up from behind. I got absolutely run over and pounded, could not hold anyone's feet, and each wave separated by 1 minute continued to run over me.

Worst swim ever for OD.

---

Eric Reid AeroFit | Instagram Portfolio
Aerodynamic Retul Bike Fitting

“You are experiencing the criminal coverup of a foreign backed fascist hostile takeover of a mafia shakedown of an authoritarian religious slow motion coup. Persuade people to vote for Democracy.”

Thanks for doing this Dev. At the very least, WTC should put some notation in the searchable results and athlete tracker (when they work) to distinguish racer/non-racer. By doing this it will be known to others that the athlete's finish time should be taken with a very big bag of salt.

Jamie

I started on the front line without a wetsuit. The majority of guys around me were wearing wetsuits. One benefit; while treading water, their kicks are cushioned.

Why must they swim so close to the cable ? Swim wider to get open water. The corner was to narrow guards and kayaks should have moved back more. I was a lifeguard and was concerned about the non Wetsuit swimmers. With only 18 guards that's a lot of water and swimmers .I don't know how the delay start would effect the pro race. I want a safe race . Thankfully no one died.

Thom
Ps some should spend more time training in the pool.

I'll speak up. I swam IMLP this weekend without the wetsuit as a last minute decision as I was told about the ruling upon entering transition to pump up my tires.

For the record, last year I was swimming sub 30's for 70.3's. This year at IMLP without the suit I swam 1:04. Had collarbone surgery 12 weeks ago.

The 10 minutes of treading water after the pro's started got scary. I can tread water very efficiently by small movements with just my hands, apparently, most people can't. Wetsuits crowded around me and I realized just how much the wetsuits keep you floating. It became very crowded and a lot of "egg beaters" kicking me in the legs and people crowding in so close I couldn't move my hands or arms to tread. It got scary. I tried to get to more open areas but that kept putting me further away from the line. And people would see their buddy and "need" to swim over me to get to them.

That was a 10 minute euro-soccer crowd experiences.

Then the first loop. Tarzan swimming. I don't mind the slapping of the legs or the punches to the head. What I mind is the feeling of being a tuna fish in a Japanese fishermens large net with 2000 other tuna fish. I wasn't even on the tow line, I was way right. Wetsuits, not other non-wetsuits, were grabbing my shoulders, pushing me under, and then crawling over me. I tried to make my way over to the inside buoy line, but it was the same there. I tried to find open pockets, but at each buoy, the crowd came back. I honestly thought I was going to die.

This went on for the length of the first out section of the first loop. A little on the back section and even less on the second loop. Over all it affected my energy level and probably cost me about 6 minutes or so. First loop was 32 minutes. I saw that and decided to swim harder on the second loop only to see my second loop time increase by 30 seconds. Of course, the second loop does include a small beach run, dolphin dives, and about 25 yard swim to the start line, probably worth 45 seconds to a minute.

Overall it didn't affect my race other than 6 minutes or so if I had worn a suit. It would have taken a perfect race (which with surgery I had no idea how my run endurance would play out) for me to be in the hunt for a KQ at sub 10 (35-39 AG), but I thought I would try, who knows what can happen on a given day.

Blew up half way thru the run and finished with a 10:42. ChrisG caught me on the run and he and I ran a bit together. He was running faster than my planned pace so I backed off. Wheels came off at mile 13 or 14.

There should be 3 groups at all triathlons. Pro's, award seekers, finishers. Or based on previous 70.3 or IM swim time pace. Nothing against any group, just a difference in what to expect. Other races, like NYC marathon do it, so we have the ability to do so and we are only talking about an additional 3 minute stagger.

Congrats to all that finished or attempted.