I have not read the rest of this thread today and not to defend Jimmy, but he's just responsible to ref the race with the resources that he is given to work with. He does the best with that. If his guys are not allowed on the highway to do the reffing, then he can't do much. I would imagine that Jimmy would have voiced objections. If his guys where not allowed on the course during the race, then his hands are double tied and handcuffed. If he was told that his guys would not be allowed on the course before the race, then I am certain he would have pushed back.

But let's see what happened. I don't imagine that IM will issue an apology.

For the people that crashed, my heart goes out to them (I can barely walk due to complications from a two rider crash while making a pass at IM Switzerland 2011 and going into a house).

However in the case of a pack in the vicinity, the only way to crash is if you are actually in the pack or the pack literally body checks a rider they are passing as they go by and you are dropping back. The latter can happen but if there is hesitation as they pass and you put the gas on and become part of the pack, then the dice are rolled because there is an option to not be in the pack in the first place. Once in the pack all bets are off....tri geeks on TT bikes with deep rim wheels and discs and trouble in tight quarters.

Dev

Did you come upon the pack of 30 guys from behind, by going faster than them? Why not just keep going faster than them and pass them? What am I missing here?

If they passed you, then they were going faster than you, and you have no basis for trying to pass them. What am I missing here?

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"Go yell at an M&M"

WTC doesn't care about drafting, this isn't something new. They care about registrations and selling tee shirts, so as long as people are giving them money, I wouldn't expect much change. They don't appear to care about doping in the AG field either.

You can't pass a bike pack of 30 people.

I caught one in Oceanside. I passed it. They hopped on my wheel and started drafting. Maybe if I dropped a Sandersesque 450 watts on them for 15 minutes straight I could have dropped them.


The problem is, that for Mortals like us, let's say I bump up to 350 or 400 watt to pass them and try and drop them... for them to sit on my wheel while I am burning all these matches going 300-plus Watts, they are only using about 60% of energy to go the same speed because they are drafting. So my 300 watts is them pushing 200...

Do you understand where the problem comes from now? And that 200 is just the guys in the front of the pack. The guys in the back are burning 150, if that, to keep up with someone pushing 300 watts at the front.

So if I'm going along at 24.5 moh hour, and I catch up to a pack going 23 miles an hour, when I pass them, they simply hop on my wheel, burn 60% of the energy I am, and don't let me get away.

All this changes on a hilly course.

Eta: point is, you can CATCH a pack, but you need to be able to put out MORE than 150% of the effort they are to drop them. Basically, when drafting, you only use about 2/3 the energy as the person in front of you. So in order to drop them, you need to be putting out almost double the energy they are.

Can you blast past a pack and stay away? Yes, but the amount of matches you would have to burn to do so would come back to haunt you on the run in a huge way unless you are some sort of super stud

So they draft you, and you couldn't drop them. Big deal. Does that mean you are cheating? No. You caught and passed them. If they then sped up in order to re-pass you, you can just do the same speed you were doing, but at lower wattage due to the draft effect of a large pack of riders going past you at a higher speed, and let them go. A win for you.


So, which is it? You can't pass them, or you did pass them?

Still not seeing the issue. Ride your own pace, pass those you catch holding the same pace (at lower wattage), keep your own pace afterwards. Doesn't matter what those you pass do after you pass them.

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"Go yell at an M&M"

driver_ian wrote:

The story I heard this morning is that WTC was limited on the number of motorcycles that they were allowed for marshals on the course by State Officials. The number I heard was 3 motorcycles and WTC choose to marshal the PRO race. I can't state this as fact but that was the discussion at breakfast this morning.It is clear to me based on my on course observations what nearly all the age groupers choose todo.

Maybe they had only enough money to pay for three toll tags...

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Once, I was fast. But I got over it.

I get what you are saying. This is essentially what I ended up doing after trying to play the futile keep in front of them strategy where i burned some matches. There were large packs followed by small packs followed by... get the picture? To stay legal I literally soft pedaled for up to 10 minutes at a time while people blew by me constantly because there were no legal gaps. Who wants to race this way?

I also think it is ridiculous to expect someone to not be outraged for having to pull a bunch cheaters with questionable handling skills cm from their wheel on a damn tri bike.

The bottom line is they don't just cheat themselves, they negatively impact the race for everyone out there, from stealing slots, to screwing up race plans, and putting people in the hospital.

When you were "soft pedalling", were you going slower than you had been before the packs passed you? If they were passing you, you didn't need to slow down, since they were going faster and they'd likely each be out of your draft zone without you having to slow down.

When a pack passes you, you have a choice: either maintain your speed at a lower wattage and enjoy the free rest, or speed up and maintain the same wattage and cheat along with the pack. Your call. Packs form when people choose the latter option. Period.

If someone with sketchy bike skillz is drafting me, they are the ones who are likely to crash if they come into contact with me, not me.

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"Go yell at an M&M"

"I also think it is ridiculous to expect someone to not be outraged for having to pull a bunch cheaters with questionable handling skills cm from their wheel on a damn tri bike. "

+1

Everyone on the IM bike course put in a lot of sacrifice to be there and some drafter could literally wreck all of that.

https://www.strava.com/activities/1537866111#38413173878


180w Avg power, 24mph. the amount of 0 in the cadence is crazy.

There is a lot of talk about the men and their splits and not much about the women.
- Women 30-34.... Top 5 bike splits 4:43 - 5:02 . Marathons 3:22-3:44, 9:40 took the last podium spot. (The 3:22 marathon was by the 5:01 bike time.)
- women 35-39.... Top 5 bike splits 4:46 - 5:07. Two 3:32 marathons. 9:48 took the last podium spot.
It keeps going. There weren't as many women on the course but there were several deep in the middle of the pack with a lot of coasting going on. Fast swimmers seem to have phenomenal bike splits likely because they got with very fast packs. Then their runs. WOW. There are a lot of women on the edge of going pro.

It was a fast day but this was nuts. One of the people who cheer hard on the run course every year at the Moxie Bridge told me he was confused as to why the runners looked so fresh. He didn't know there weren't any marshals on the course at that time. Apart from the cheating it wasn't safe and that was scary. My heart goes out to those who crashed.

Wow. You guys must go positively apeshit while watching all the travelling--um, I mean cheating--in basketball.

Look at 10:25:40 on the video above. Is this a UCI race? The peloton is Tour size worthy!

*sigh*

Can you read?

To wit "I PASSED IT, THEY HOPPED ON MY WHEEL"

But yeah, thanks for only quoting PART of my text to try and spin it. Cherry pick much? Dick.

2 bits says you draft and are trying to justify.

If you CATCH a pack, even if you are going faster, THEY will draft, and it's nearly impossible to drop them.

Rest of my story? I got so frustrated with them drafting that I pulled over, came to a complete stop, then followed 50 yards back, about 1 mph slower than I would have liked to have ridden, and called them out for the next 5 miles until I blew by them once there were hills.

Just take a look at the NB and SB Hardy Toll Road Segments - the amount of 26+ mph splits at under 180w is crazy.

https://www.strava.com/segments/14700803


https://www.strava.com/segments/14700825

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Strava

And as far as the "ride your own race and don't worry about the guys drafting on you" bullshit, that may apply to MOPers, but when you are in contention for a podium, doing that you are burning matches while a weak biker behind you can save energy to pass you on the run.

I'm a swim/bike strong, survive the run guy. Others are bike run, swim run, whatever..

Point is, we have to work with our strengths to win... If people who are weak on the bike CHEAT to a fast bike, it doesn't just neutralise a person who is a fast biker and relies on that to get to a podium, it gives an extra unfair advantage to the cheater.

But yeah, I guess if you suck, or just don't put in the work, it won't matter or seem important to you.


He'll, even though I suck, it still matters to me, but I guess that's because I have principles.

Cheaters suck. If you don't agree, you suck too.

I left two groups who tried to hang on to me. The key is do it like a cycling race, and hit them hard when one tires or pulls off, the boom, out of the saddle for 15sec to open 50m and then settle into a good sustainable power. If you are truly stronger, they won't come back to you.

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"Only those who risk going too far can possibly find out how far one can go." T.S. Elliot | Cycle2Tri.com
Sponsors: SciCon | | Every Man Jack

How many matches did you burn though?

I've been in breakaway in bike races as well. Even did the solo suicide thing a few times...

Breaking away or bridging to a breakaway burns so much there is no way I could run after the way I could with a constant efforg.

Besides the drafting, does no one ride to the right anymore? What a mess.

Editing to ask: was there a paratriathlete team or something? Before 15 min into the linked video from the tollway, there was someone with a trail-a-bike...

oh please. Ironman can't even get the race tracking working or a finish line video to work. They have no hope for a drone to do what you are suggesting.

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It was not bad really, my normalized power went up a bit, but never to a point where I was working too much. I felt good to the end and while I ended up riding at a power a bit higher, it was well within my overall range.

The key is to get the gap and then get super aero so as to make the advantage stick. I barely looked up after those attacks just so I could get my cda as low as I could, thinking if I did not give off a draft, they will have to work like demons to pull me back (and those weak minded idiots obviously didn't want to work)

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"Only those who risk going too far can possibly find out how far one can go." T.S. Elliot | Cycle2Tri.com
Sponsors: SciCon | | Every Man Jack

This is the place where people regularly claim sub 5 bike times on 170 watts, riding clean

https://twitter.com/...243219681280/photo/1

170 watts here! ^

Very sad to see IM ghetto-izing these races stuffing 2000+ people into these courses in order to make more $.
Unfair to put onus on athletes and referees to sort it out. Until we stop tipping at the IM windmill with dreams of Kona heaven and signing up for these races, this drafting crap with persist.