As long as people vote with their pocketbook nothing will ever change.

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Yep, WTC should demand the ride files from all the top 15 from most AGs and then load them into Strava for a flyover review....will be super easy to see who drafted for LARGE portions of the bike course.

One can dream

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"Only those who risk going too far can possibly find out how far one can go." T.S. Elliot | Cycle2Tri.com
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I plan to vote ... by never doing this race again.

Or just moto-marshall the course like ever other race. Can it be that hard to find a local MC willing to cover a few hundred miles?

Just look at this video!
https://m.facebook.com/...;id=1526083630835352

Start at 1515 and get shocked!
Simimar size group 2 min before, so not a one off. Its pathetic!

This is so hard to watch.

I'd be pretty unhappy if I was racing there.

That’s laughable lol, who can happily sit in the pack like that and be proud of their race?

Check out crash at 42:32 danger of riding in packs - GIF here - https://d.pr/i/1LmH8U
and this, unreal

Lol, that’s hilarious.

Explains why American pros have done so poorly at Kona over the last 15 years, in domestic races they get to draft with impunity.

I believe major clubs should claim an official protest to WTC/ITU both, otherwise it will stay in Internet and thing will not change.

There is exactly the same story in Barcelona, where people race in packs.

iIt's really not funny when you have opposite traffic so close coming in the other direction and you see everyone flare out. It was scary to make a pass in the opposite direction when a peloton 3 or 4 wide is coming right at you. Never know when something like this will happen and a guy going 24+ comes head on into your lane.

I can appreciate the difficulty in finding a dedicated lane for motorcycles or something. But to just not even try at all. The smallest races I've ever been to had more moto support and Marshall presence than that.

I'm becoming a TO.

And still there are people who don't want to draft!!!!!!!

The other lane seems ok to me regarding drafting (people returning).

It remains an individual choice.

Funny thing is the pack reformed

I haven't done an IM race since 2008 and they are still in business :(

Too much middle aged blank skin left with space for an IMdouche tattoo

Northbound had the the divider and a single lane, no way a motorcycle could go down it. Southbound is another story. Two lanes and a shoulder. There would have been zero issues with officials patrolling on it. It is how the "tech support" and support vehicles made it up and down the roadway.

Saw it with my own eyes yesterday. Crazy. One pack got so wide these idiots were riding in the wrong lane directly into oncoming cyclists. Luckily when they came at me nobody was passing. Empty penalty tents and I do not recall seeing anyone patrolling the race. Very unsafe.

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Regards,
J. Smith

Serves them right, hope no one got seriously hurt but that's karma.

wtf does age group drafting have to do with american pros' performance in kona?

Starky can't catch a break. He's both biking way too hard off the front and simultaneously drafting with impunity.

Instant justice ;-)
Sam

Stupidest comment on the internet about drafting. Blaming pros for misbehaving age groupers.

Watched the video feed and in that location with the width of the road no reason to choose to draft. You can always let the train go and ride up the road. Glad to see so many who actually chose to ride an honourable race.

I'm not defending the drafters, but I would say there is a large group of athletes riding legal too.

As for blaming WTC on the marshalling front, well it is never acceptable when there are no marshalls but when did we all lose accountability for ourselves. Just cause someone is drafting in a pack and stealing your Kona slot, it does not make it acceptable to join the train and get on a level playing field of Kona slot stealing. This is exactly why everyone in the pro peloton had to be on EPO in the 90's and 2000's. For them, you either got on EPO and kept your pro contract, or you went back to being a bricklayer in Khazakstan or a factory worker in the US or wherever. I'm not saying that makes it OK, but really at the age group level, WTF are people stealing artificial times for? I thought the entire point of age group sport was to challenge ourselves.

Dev

Who on earth would starky draft off of?! Was there anyone going 28 mph? No there wasn’t. I’m sure the pro race, aside for woman’s race I bet, was honest since they were ahead of everyone. Pro women probably got the shaft like usual with all of those packs catching up to some of them and causing problems.

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Twitter - Instagram

Strava flyby is probably not precise enough to tell you the difference between blatant drafting and legal distance.

I agree with everything you said except 1 thing, stealing slots. I saw a lot of guys that were sitting mid-pack, slotted squarely in the peleton, that were walking very early on in the run.

I was out there, and it was a circus. And not a course marshal to be seen. Scary when they would pass you going the same direction. Scarier when they were coming from the other.

Certainly doesn't say much about the intelligence or ethics of triathletes when participants spend $10K plus for a tri bike and aero equipment than spend much of the race riding in a pack. :)

My last WTC race was in 2007.

Yep. If they’re going to draft like this, just buy any old road bike and sit back in the pack and draft all day.

You can still overbike in a pack.

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Dev,

Every time I look at Facebook I get closer to believing that the entire point of age group sport is to be able to brag about your achievements. ;) Most people's FB friends have no idea that triathletes who are drafting are stealing artificial times.

The story I heard this morning is that WTC was limited on the number of motorcycles that they were allowed for marshals on the course by State Officials. The number I heard was 3 motorcycles and WTC choose to marshal the PRO race. I can't state this as fact but that was the discussion at breakfast this morning.It is clear to me based on my on course observations what nearly all the age groupers choose todo.

There's a certain amount of, "Everyone else is doing it. So it's OK if I do it too. In fact, anyone would be stupid not to do it!" And not just in sports.

There are a lot of folks who defend or choose to look the other way when cyclists, baseball players, politicians, or anyone else is caught cheating or admits to cheating because "Everyone was/is doing it so it's a level playing field."

Doing the right thing and/or being held accountable for your actions has gone by the wayside.

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"Human existence is based upon two pillars: Compassion and knowledge. Compassion without knowledge is ineffective; Knowledge without compassion is inhuman." Victor Weisskopf.

Having done this race on the old 1 loop course its such a shame to hear of how bad it was as I really enjoyed my race there and I like the run course as well.

I had planned to go back next year and i will not based on everything that has been said.

Sadly, I fear the type of feedback on drafting and it being short etc will attract as many new people as it will lose people like me knowing how many in this sport will cheat or want a superficial PB.

I love the sport but wish it attracted more of the honorable types.....some of my best friends are in the sport and some of the people I truly would not want to have a beer with feel like the majority a lot more than when I started in the 90s. Maybe I'm just old !

Ironman use to be something I was proud to say I did and today as much as I still love the distance and race I rarely will mention it to anyone outside of my immediate family.

Someone should just HD video these draft packs in slow mo from a few angles, then just turn the tape over to us here for a gigantic twitch hunt. It would be like another marathon investigation.

It would also be a great data source to confirm the double letter name conspiracy.

Please someone do it.

He could draft off people who don't understand sarcasm.

If true, this is unacceptable, and the race organizers need to be held accountable for this. This race is 100% a joke with no age group marshals on the bike course.

I was told something similar.

If true, that's terrible planning and communication (or lack thereof) by WTC with the local authorities.

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blog

#epicfail on reading between the lines

Are you 100% sure that was sarcasm? Because I believe his first point about not catching a break on race distance. So I’m not entirely sure after how some people have talked about this race. Heck a few have called matt Hanson a liar about the run distance even when he gave the damn file! You can never be too sure on ST!

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x2 on what James had to say + I'll add that only 11 of the 35 male pros was from the US. I'll add that, anecdotally, pros genuinely believer there is less impartiality in the US than in any other country. Some pro's won't race in specific countries because they believe it isn't a fair fight in favor of the local pro. Then there is the fact that no group of athletes is more drug tested than Americans. Not sure why there is so much misplaced anger but look at the time mats. There is 1-2 seconds splits between riders at 27 mph, granted I only really looked at the top male pros.

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The part about Starky drafting was obviously in reference to a prior absurd comment somebody made about American pros suffering in Kona because of widespread AG drafting. Nobody thinks Starky is drafting. Not that he even has a chance to generally.

Then sign me up as a volunteer bike riding official (from IMMT thread). I would gladly ride my road bike and work an event in hopes that the event I do race is a bit more clean. Or would the local authorities nix that too? Maybe there were a few “State Officials” needing a Kona slot /pink -sort of.

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Team Zoot - Great Lakes

Well now that I read the whole thread before that comment I see that. I guess I shouldn’t post before having my coffee in the morning. But honestly, I have read some crazier things than the starky drafting comment.

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Twitter - Instagram

To my credit that isn’t even in the top 100 comments on ST that someone was serious about if it was. But now that I read the comments prior I feel a bit dumb. Face meet palm!

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Twitter - Instagram

There’s a significant moral & ethical difference between a violation that results in a 5 minute penalty & one that results in a 2 yr or lifetime ban.

Using your logic, every single person here who speeds while driving their car is equally as culpable as Donald Trump for having an extramarital affair with a pornstar.

That's just the Prince and his entourage, no?

No no, that was Peter Sagan on a breakaway and Contador trying to latch on and the entire team Sky lead peloton worrying about El Pistolero getting a flyer on Sagan's effort and trying to shut it down. In the back is Movistar trying to figure out if they will work for Quintana or Landa, but in the mean time, happy that the diesel engines at Sky are doing the work.

Oh, sorry, maybe it is the Prince's entourage trying to latch onto Rob Gray pulling the entire group....something like that!

OK, since we are having some fun on this thread, technically there is nothing illegal about having an extra marital affair with a pornstar, whereas speeding and drafting are both illegal. So the Orange One would get a pass at IM Texas if he did not draft but banged a female athlete in T2 who he chatted up during a legal pass on the bike while Melania was wondering why he is taking so long in T2 (or maybe he's fast, I don't know)....he could even brag about it during the marathon all he wanted even if there was Access Hollywood reporters taping the bragging. He'd probably get elected in as Prez of WTC after that to straighten out the WTC drafting swamp and ini the lead up the head of the FBI would have outted Messick for all kinds of personal emails that he ran off a personal server where confidential email between him and Jimmy and the Texas State troopers who limited moto access to the Hardy Expressway were all purged!!!!

Did I miss anything that we should add to this?

Nope. You achieved your goal of being super extra douchey.

This shit needs to move to the Lavender room.

Custom 2019 IMTX training plan for guaranteed PR: Allocate training time as 85% run, 12% swim, and 3% bike. Remember, it's not "cheating" unless you get caught, and since Ironman is too busy selling your loved-ones more crap merchandise back at the Village, consider it tacit approval that everything's kosher.

I kinda knew I would be killing the thread when the other guy started with the pornstar angle. But in fairness, he's picking on the guy for doing something totally legal (the affair with the pornstar). It's not against any legal rule, just some implicit moral contract the guy may have with his partner. Drafting on the other hand inside the confines of the sport is a rule transgression. Yes, we have all incidentally drafted due to situational traffic/rider density, the real question is whether we sat in getting the full blown illegal tow. Just cause a peloton is doing it, does not make it legal. It may "feel OK" but it's still illegal in the sport.

Well beneath you....sad.

I think that you guys missed the most important part of that satire. Messick/WTC knew they would not have enough marshalls on the course but chose to run a championship events stacked with Kona slots without refs. From half a continent away, it appears to be that way.

As for the satire, well, OK, but I picked on the email deleting crew too, and maybe we just have more fun with banging on our politicians in Canada and the UK without getting too serious about them. But I'll behave myself and stick to triathlon....so which email thread did Messick get involved with when he was informed that he will run a championship race with no referees or not run it at all.

Jimmy, "Houston, we have a problem, we're about to run the Big 12 Conference Championships at the Astrodome and the dome staff won't let our referees enter the stadium"
Messick, "Well dammit, the fans have paid for the tickets and the sponsors are lined up, we have no choice, let's just assume the players will behave themselves and follow rules"
Jimmy, "Are you out of you mind? Even Gomez sits right at the edge of the box with Kienle blows by, and you expect age group ego maniacs to play clean....we need a solution"
Messick, "Jimmy, use your three refs to make sure that Starky is not drafing anyone. We want to make sure any records are legit"
Jimmy, "I heard the course is a bit short anyway, so the records won't count, maybe we use our refs to make sure no one drafts the Prince"

Ok seriously, what happened with Ironman not being allowed more refs on the field of play. Aside from athletes not behaving, this seems really weird.

I don't know the ground truth regarding refs at IM Texas this year, but I've read in several other places that because the 2 and 3 abreast draft packs were going into the center lane which was supposed to be clear, the police pulled the refs from the course for safety reasons. If that's true, the drafters were rewarded for bad behavior with a marshal-free course. What I don't understand is how WTC lost control of the course in the first place. I did IM Texas last year and they kept everyone to the sides while refs, ambulances, and police maintained the center lane. What the heck happened this year that changed it so markedly for the worse?

I was one of the first hundred or so amateurs onto the bike course & the only moto I saw all day forced us into the middle lane, leaving the right hand lane open. I didn’t ask why, he was screaming pretty loud.

This completes my disillusionment with triathlon. It's just a white middle class activity that people do in an attempt to feel special about themselves.

Well that probably set the stage. I looked at the athlete's guide and it is silent on how to ride the freeway. That is something they need to address next year.

Good satire doesn't need an explanation.

I'm not surprised there was drafting, nor am I surprised it was as bad as it was. It is a flat race. It is a 'championship' race. It's also early and really far away from Kona. Given those factors, I think that you would have to expect the potential that a lot of drafting would occur. Given those factors, I do not think that it is un-reasonable to expect an organizing body to have precautions or preparations in place for controlling or at least attempting to control packs and drafting.

I was mildly surprised that there seemed to be little to no officiating out there. I've heard of this at a local yokel sprint tri, but not at a 'championship' race.

I think it's a little disingenuous to place all of the blame on the athletes like a couple of tweets and other comments seemed to do. I would venture that every single person who was involved with decisions about the race knows how athletes behave and what to expect of athletes. Athlete behavior hasn't changed since probably the beginning of time...generally speaking here. Given the choice between drafting and not, most will chose drafting, especially if they will not get caught or tagged. So again, I do not think that it's an un-reasonable expectation to have a relatively fair race at a designated 'championship.'

So maybe we're saying the same thing. Other than having 1 athlete who had a really good race finish further down than he might have with a fair race, I don't have a dog in this fight. I'm a retired pro triathlete who has seen the sport grow from a fringe sport in the mid to late 80s to the sometimes overly corporate sport that it is now. I'm glad we still have local participation in Austin.

And like Pantelones kind of mentioned, we're really talking about a 1st world problem here when you get down to it. I exercise now and don't miss the BS around the events. I'm down to 1 bike with fattish road tires and mtb pedals and shoes, 1 pair of running shoes, and 1 pair of swim jammers. I'll identify as a triathlete for a long time, but I don't miss the BS like this thread. It annoys me that I've got good athletes who aren't going to get their slots because they try to race clean or have to spend $1,000s more to get to another race.

Really, I think that we need a classification system so that those athletes 'expecting' to qualify get a fair race and those that 'just' want to finish get their medal. I'm not downplaying either segment, I've coached all of them and I've been in each category. But, I think that it's time for different ideas to be considered. Ideas that don't simply involve cramming more athletes onto a course because they'll pay the entry fee.

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Brandon Marsh - Website | @BrandonMarshTX | RokaSports | 1stEndurance | ATC Bikeshop |

It’s now wrong to feel good or special about oneself?

my friend crashed badly yesterday at IMTX. she went straight to the hospital, where she remains 24+ hours later. I'm sure due to the overcrowding. Too many athletes of different abilities, all crammed into the same 20 M segment at the same time, in the same place. she trained for months and months, and was near the top of her AG when taken out. This is not just a drafting problem (look at the bike splits at the top of EVERY age group, and the drafting part becomes crystal clear) but more so an issue of gross negligence on the part of WTC/race organizers. As for choice/ no choice....and also regarding the PRO race....look up DImity-Lee Duke's post on Twitter today.....

I don't really think you can blame the athletes. In every sport, players try and get away with breaking the rules, waiting for the referee/umpire to turn their back, sneak a few extra yards, that's why we have referees. I don't draft because I don't want to give up 5mins and also I think it's a pretty lame way to race But if there were no TOs and everyone was drafting then I'm not sure I wouldn't? Ethically is it any different to pissing on the bike? I certainly do that. It's an easy problem to fix, not sure why this remains a problem. 10mins+ in the bin, repeat offenders during the season get a ban, no warnings. Competitors won't object and they'll still return to race, they just won't draft.

There is some pretty impressive CdA evident on this Strava leaderboard. Make your own conclusions. 4:25 on less than 175W would be sweet.

https://www.strava.com/segments/14700825

ha ha that's insane!

I know it doesn't make it right, but i think it's easy to get caught up in a big pack like that, you have lots of riders of a similar ability so you naturally come together and it takes a big effort to get out of the situation.

Unless it breaks up because of a hill or a referee motorbike etc. you either need to do a sustained 4/5 minute effort to break off the front (probably only to get caught by the same group 3/4 minutes later) or more or less stop to drop off the back - if you just sit up and freewheel you get sucked along, none of which are very appealing when you're in a race.

Sit up for 45 seconds and the pack will drop you.

The pack is going faster than you because it caught you.

If you caught it, you can also drop it.

There is no excuse.

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As a veteran of 9 IM's (all of which were mass start) and a faster swimmer and a mediocre biker (5:30 range +/- 10 mins depending on course), I can attest to the fact that you're just flat out wrong.

I've got lots of experience being out on the bike course relatively early and getting passed all day long by legit riders and by packs. If I wanted to I could easily hang with just about any of the packs but I always chose to let them go up the road and never once needed to touch my brakes to do so. Simply soft pedal for 15-20 seconds and once they've roll through get back to it. Rinse and repeat when the next group comes through.

It can be done.

Or video marshall the race... seriously officials could sit in a trailer somewhere and watch cameras at locations all over the course. Seriously riding around on the back of a motorocyle with a pencil and scribbling in a notebook is a bit dated.

From what I'm reading it was deemed the motos were deemed unsafe for the course due to congestion... it's time to think outside the box.

And then the next pack catches you, and then the next....

I wasn't there, but it sounds like it was more an issue with the course itself not lending itself well to that many athletes at a time. Looking at the size of the packs, its hard to imagine how they all could have spread out 12-14m apart. I'm not saying it makes it right, but not as easy as some imply to be able to do your own ride perfectly legal. I think WTC needs to re-think the bike course, which would also allow room for more marshals.
If everyone in this thread hates WTC so much, why not take your money elsewhere...

How much of the course was freeway? Maybe they were bored to tears by the course and drafting to make it interesting :)

This is a ridiculous response. There NEVER is enough anti-drafting enforcement at IM races. It’s about the budget, not the course.

Take your money elsewhere? Where else can you find a 140.6 course with a competitive field and a chance to qualify for the WC? You have one company in that business.

How this works is when you sit up and let the first pack pass and drop you, then you keep TTing and then when the next one does the same you sit up, and let them blow by and drop you again and again and again. You do this knowing the marshalls will nail these guys up the road and you can pass the packed penalty tent with a big smile on your face, but mainly you do this so you know you earned your own bike split. You can't control who shows up and what their strengths are and what their morals are,but you can control your own.

I raced 31 WTC Ironmans over three decades and saw it all. I never got a drafting penalty with this strategy, except for twice in my life....IMLP 2006 and IMTX2015. Both times, I got into a Sebi Kienle tuck and came up to a rider. At IMLP it was actually because I bigger rider who passed me chickened out on the Keene descent and slammed on his brakes and I repassed him too fast without dropping back enough bike lengths. At IMTX on one of the downhills, I took too long to make the pass. Both case situational violations with another solo rider. I can't count how many packs I let got in all the 31 IM's and half IM races. Like Logella said, it can be done, you just need to decide up front that you'll ride your own race. If not, just catch the subway on the run course. It's all course cutting.

It is too bad about this situation at IMTX. The old course was super clean with zero packs that I saw, especially with the 2015 rolling start spreading out the field.

This one?


IRONMAN Texas
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235 likes

• dimitydukeWell what can I say - a hard post to write on many levels but one that needs to be published in the most professional way I can. For those who know me well enough I am not to give up on races lightly but today I had to ultimately decide on whether I wanted to be a sheep and follow the flock or stop purely as a matter of principle. @ironmantri #IMTX was an interesting day. I had never felt so well prepared and ready physically and mentally to race an IRONMAN. The swim went relatively well considering non wetsuit and fresh water/no underwater visibility conditions. It was onto the bike where things went pear shaped. I was riding with crédible female pro athletes and some professional men. Unfortunately there were a number of athletes within the riding group who chose to blatantly break the rules #drafting no just on the odd occasion but for the whole ride until I chose to pull the plug. Regardless of wether draft Marshall’s around or not it should be up to the athlete to race clean and fair. Obviously this was disregarded. As I was doing my upmost to follow the rules I knew down the road that I would ultimately pay the price coming into the run. I decided to not continue to ride with this group and ride with another fellow athlete who acknowledged what was going on - but ultimately she was sucked in and followed the same suit when the next drafting group went by. The last straw came for me when another female pro athlete who was also drafting at 2m said « hop on and get a free ride! » . I am sorry but this is not who I am and who I am about. I feel sorry for the fast swimmers @mbkessler who would have most likely seen this happening and ultimately lost the lead. I feel sorry for the event organisers, my friends, my homestay family, my coach @jurgenzack , my @zcoaching_phuket crew who I have let down. I feel sorry for my sponsors who provide me with the best equipment to help me achieve my goals. I refuse to stoop to such a level and I will continue to race athletes and events who want to play clean and fair. I will pick myself up from this and move on as always. Thanks for your understanding. #swimbikerun #triathlon #principles #keepingitreal #playbytherules

Well, regardless of the cause and/or possible solution, I will say, it is kind of amusing picking out random names from the top 30 finishers from the male 45-49 group, and looking at their other bike times on Obsessed Triathlete.
Some of their bike times (just bike, not overall) in Texas were upwards of an hour faster than at other IM's over the past couple years......lol

More importantly, this race also touted (40?) extra Kona slots.

I definitely don't condone it, but I can understand how in the 'heat of the battle', when some AG athlete (that's been training for 12 months for a KQ) sees a pack or two like the one in this video fly by them, the athlete has the decision of do I race fair and risk the KQ or join in and try to stay in contention. Personally, I have a strong swim/run background that I use to prop up my mediocre bike leg, and I would be very upset if I saw a group like this fly by me with my competition in the pack essentially stealing a KQ.

Again, definitely don't condone it, but I can see where it comes from.

Kind of off topic but I find it funny that these drafters will do anything for a Kona slot which includes cheating. No paycheck just a Kona slot. You do realize you have to pay for the slot and you'll be dropping close to $10k on the trip? Most people around you could care less if you KQ.

The solution is to let the KQ slot go to the the others trying to steal it. You don't want to steal the KQ slot and unfairly get it. Just rely on Jimmy and crew nailing them and stuffing the penalty tent filled with pack riders. I've seen it both ways, letting the packs go and losing KQ slot and the other way, where the pack ends up in the penalty tent. Usually after that happens, the guys are so demoralized, they overbike to make up time and blow up.....then I have them on the run for sure. You roll the dice that the refs will do their job and focus on themselves.

Dev

PS. My hit rate for KQ for my ability is really bad. I've only KQ'd on one in 10 IM's. Most of the lack of success is my own none execution in the middle of the bike or early in the run....the packs ended making up no difference....in any case it can be done to let go. Ask Logella too. He's been around.

Absolutely. I just see how it would be rough to let go and could break those with a weaker constitution. I would scrap the race before I resorted to doing something like this because, similar to doping, I don't think I would feel like I earned the slot.

I was just trying to add some slightly different perspective because I feel like a lot of this forum thinks the effort put in and the reward of getting a KQ are a waste of time. Personally, I decided to make this my full distance year and will definitely be shooting for a KQ. I know that if I do get it nobody else really cares. However, to me, it would definitely be a reward of all the long hours and sacrifice put in to achieve it.

Sorry but there WERE pros in those draft packs. Saw them with my own eyes.

Yeah, at least I came by mine honestly

I would like to think that cheaters get theirs. I did not draft and passed hundreds of AG dudes on the run. Cheating can’t account for your lack of fitness.

People in here justifying this nonsense have clearly never done a shorter time trial.

We start only 30sec apart, usually. Meaning someone will catch you and you will catch someone. Sometimes 15sec start time differentials.

If you catch someone in a 10mi TT at 30sec apart, that's only a speed difference of less than 1/2mph difference. Think about what that means, in one hour you cover 1/2 a mile further.

A 1/2 mi and even a 1/3 mile is pretty damn far. Almost out of sight if there's any hills. Trying to say "they're close in ability and group up naturally" is horse shit.

In an IM I guarandamntee those dudes/dudettes are at least 1/2mph difference. Meaning, over such a larger distance they'd surely pass on by.

When I pass someone (or get passed) in a TT, it's usually like you're jogging past them. You're gone in 30 seconds. You stay to their side for the 30 seconds then move back.

This line of thought in here is total bullshit.

https://triathlonmagazine.ca/...-ironman-texas-year/


No records recognized at Ironman Texas this year

Many athletes, both pros and age groupers, disappointed after yesterday's race because of a shortened bike course not announced ahead of time and a massive drafting problem.

As an RD myself, it is incumbent on the RD to secure officials. According to USAT, officials are not even a requirement. RDs fly in the officials, pay them and provide lodging and meals. If there are no officials at a race that falls squarely on the race director and his/her budget. It has nothing to do with being ‘allowed’ officials—it’s about whether you hire them or not.

Seems like WtC figures that setting up ‘penalty tents’ would be enough to discourage. But on a multi-loop course like this, it was very easy to see that there were no officials at all in either direction. And the people at all the aid stations knew it—I heard people ask if there were officials on the course and they said they had not seen any.

I personally know an age grouper riding legally who was pushed off the road because of one of the draft packs of 50+ people. He ended up with a head injury and the meds would not let him continue. Lots is assholes out there on Saturday.

Or genetics :)

I just pulled these numbers....

Same bike course as last year, I think wind picked up a little on the way home last year but not enough to add 10s of minutes.

2017 Male AG bike splits
1 under 4:30
9 under 4:40
29 under 4:50
78 under 5:00


2018 Male AG bike splits
63 under 4:30
178 under 4:40
277 under 4:50
345 under 5:00

I can too. And what are you supposed to do if you are coming up on that pack. Slow down as to not hit the back on the draft zone? Expend an extra 50+ watts to try to hit the front only to be swallowed up again and then slow down until you are at the back of the pack?? This is a serious question. I have never drafted in a triathlon event but I’m not even sure what I would do (even if trying to stay within the rules) and even if a slot wasn’t on the line.

I might also add that it is easy for me to say "let the Kona Q go". I've been there. This is much harder for someone to let it go when they have not been there and have a legit chance. I also decided in my IM career to only do "Hard courses" where drafting has a lesser impact....IMLP, IM France, Whistler, Tahoe, South Africa, Tremblant, Old IM Texas course, Penticton (even that was a draft fest going back to 1991 to Osoyoos, with a train of 50 men drafting Fernanda Keller catching me just before Richter pass)....I never did a course that was flat just to largely avoid the drafting dilemma, knowing that climbs would arrive to sort it all out. If you're on a flat course and never been to Kona, it's a tougher call. Honestly I don't trust myself enough to make that tough call, so I largely avoided it by picking really really hilly events which gave me comfort that I would be able to take it back on the climbs.

If you are an inexperienced FOP local stud, it's hard when you get to a championship event and there are 50 people of the same caliber as you and suddenly you can't ride them off your wheel. You just can't. At a local level, if you are 4.2W per kilo, you can ride most off your wheel. At a championship, there are 10 people like that in your vicinity...so then the only option is to drop back. You're not dropping these riders

With 2500 athletes hitting the course in the span of about an hour, that's about 20 riders every 30 seconds instead of 1. It's nothing like a time trial.

If you're catching them, why not just go to the front and put them in the gutter?

just give them DQs like in cycling TTs

but then the cry like a biatch thread will rear it's head

it's also funny that the same logical fallacies in this thread about drafting are the same as the ones in the TUE thread and doping in cycling. you have to....cuz everyone else is doing it. no, folks chose to do it

Dev,

I did TX last year, did a slow swim and a fast bike saw very little drafting. Won my AG. This year I would have finished 24th. I know some of those guys, and they are not as fast as that, PR'd by 25 minutes.

Has anybody posted Strava files with actual power who rode around 24mph?

I was thinking about Lake Placid next for a non drafty race. Thoughts?

Also, just FYI, I did FLA last year and there were no packs I saw. Some legal(ish) lines for sure but nothing too egregious.

As for the pros, just looking at how many guys PR'd the run, you have to wonder about the hr and power on the bike.

Ya know. That would have made sense to me last year. But, I did a large bike race where drafting was legal and so I really the affect of the draft pack. I would find myself too fast for the back of many packs but it was a LOT of work to get to the front. I paid dearly at the end of he 100 mile race for all the work I did to move past packs. Maybe it that’s just that simple, you follow the rules and suffer more because of others cheating. But I can certainly see working all the way to the front and maybe passing the entire group only to be swallowed up and then have to slow down to let the group pass two minutes later.

LP is a none draft race overall as you have around 10K of relative climbing after T2.....drafting on the flats on the out and back on first loop can be thick, but then you have 30K more or less climbing back to finish the loop. By the end of loop 1, it's all resolved. Really there is only 30K where packs have any impact but after that your final finish position reflects your fitness. I think it is a much more fair race than Tremblant....Tremblant there can be a free ride for 70K. I think you most fair race will be the new Whistler course. On that course you get the race result that reflects your fitness and execution...same for Nice.

Sorry, I get that you feel strongly but it's important to understand the context of a back and forth before wading in to the deep end with a nonsensical response like this.

This is totally on the race director. I did bike races the last 2 weekends where each field had 2 motos and a car. There were at least 5 fields each day. These were moderate sized 'regional' races, not any sort of championship. Someone earlier in the thread mentioned getting a motorcycle club involved. That is exactly what these races did. If a local RD can organize this then the only reason that Ironman can't is that they don't want to.

Quote:

Has anybody posted Strava files with actual power who rode around 24mph?

https://www.strava.com/activities/1537177564

just browse people who rode "with" said athlete

this guy's watts:mph ratio is a little questionable for example - https://www.strava.com/activities/1537541666

I'm with you... is this not basically the perfect use for drones?

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Just can’t really tell unless there’s a power measurement . A prettiy aero rider is going to need a bare minimum 215 W to average 24 1/2 miles an hour without drafting.

Although people would have to be pretty stupid to post their power from this race. Doubt you will see it from the pros either, beside A.S.

There was measured power in both of those files, but I get what you mean.

It's fairly easy to figure out who got caught up and involved in some way in draft packs. Just go look at the files' cadence.

Here is a clean, steady ride -> https://www.strava.com/.../1538820748/analysis
Here is a questionably clean, unsteady ride -> https://www.strava.com/.../1539849709/analysis

You can definitely blame the athletes.

Just because testing for PED's for triathlon age groupers is almost nonexistent, that doesn't make it OK to use them "Because everyone else is doing it." Same with drafting when/if there are no marshals looking at you on the bike course.

It's not that hard to do the right thing.

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"Human existence is based upon two pillars: Compassion and knowledge. Compassion without knowledge is ineffective; Knowledge without compassion is inhuman." Victor Weisskopf.

Starky was not drafting at all when he past me. He was going way too fast for any of those groups. He was riding solo.

I took on the sport 10 years ago for the shear love of it. I pursued my development with all my heart and passion. The videos and eyewitness accounts race after race completely disappoint me. How do they stand in the mirror after the fact, how do they look at themselves. No idea. Same with doping in AG ranks, shakes me to my core.
When I get out there to race I am in pursuit of my own improvement, love to race head to head but at the end of the day, I go home, go to work, raise my kids.....Do it for the love.
What is the flavor of that result when you know you cheated your way through. Europe, Latin America, North America, all the same. Seen hordes and hordes everywhere blatantly drafting wheel to wheel just about every race I have seen.
Hell seen it with the pros as well from Kona to everywhere else. Is that the image of the sport we are going to have. Wait until one day drug testing truly begins in a manner IOC does with all olympic athletes. It is going to be a sad day. We will make cycling UCI look like a bunch of amateurs.

Yeah, I did it last year too. I was 13th in my AG coming off my worst IM swim ever. I did see some drafting after the wind picked up, but nothing like what I've seen from this pictures and video of this year's race. It makes me wonder what they did differently this year to the point that they lost complete control of the race.

The most fair race this year will be Ironman Norway on 1 July. The bike course has over 6500 ft of net elevation gain on a continuously rolling course, and the race field should be far under 1000 athletes. With IM Austria and Challenge Roth on the same day, and IM Frankfurt the following week, the inaugural IM Norway is attracting a very small field.

As a decent swimmer make it up on the bike and run guy, the lack of course marshalling was a slap in the face. My goal was to KQ, but the draftfest eliminated my strength. I towed so many freeloaders and watched guys I walk on during the bike coast in a pack heading in the opposite direction. This was all on the RD/IM for not giving a shit. I’ll take full responsibility for choosing a course that was flat. I was optimizing for enjoying my summer and peaking for Kona.

I road 4:38 right on inline with my predicted bestbikesplit estimate.

https://www.strava.com/activities/1537793194

Aside from it being a race integrity issue this was a safety nightmare. Peltons with guys in aero is a disaster waiting to happening. Imagine the bad press if 50 people went down. That’s hurts IM’s bottom line scaring away one-timers.

My position is you need to have two race classes. You declare ahead of time your chasing Kona/podium spots racing under a different set of rules. Charge us more and throw in the drug test for good measure.

My friend (F25-29....riding hard near the top of her AG) went down when she was swallowed up by a pack of M riders. One swerved....she swerved away and right into a cone. She is still in the Woodlands' hospital w a skull fracture. And her podium dreams and all the months of very hard training she put into this race are still right there, next to the cone on the tollway. Why does it need to take a pack of 50 going down for IM to step up to the plate and take responsibility? Can't it be the 40+ athletes that crashed on the bike course because of how the race was (was not) managed? Or how about even one athlete? The risk of 100s of bikers in packs, barreling down the bike course, is NOT one she signed-off on, when she registered OR when she signed that pre-race waiver. Does anyone in the WTC public relations dept. even look at ST? Do they care?

25.8mph on 180 watts @ 133 bpm. Sounds legit.

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"They're made of latex, not nitroglycerin"

 Just FYI. I did close the same time with very close to the same power last year as you did this year.

Good for you for not cheating and for posting your data. I won my age group last year and would’ve finished a nice solid 24th this year.

WTC should issue a formal response. They are responsible for setting rules and the course. They are responsible for working with local officials to obtain proper permits and work with first responders on how a race will be supported from a safety perspective. Athletes are responsible for following the rules.

IF.... WTC decided to not have officials on Hardy Toll road then they were negligent in their responsibility to athlete safety.

IF... Rumors are true that law enforcement prevented WTC to carry out pre-set plans to have officials on Hardy Toll then that government entity should be liable. Lots of questions about exactly what happened but every Athlete, family, and friend deserves to know to the truth.

There are several men and women that cheated. Packs that big don't just happen if everyone is 'trying to race fair but just gets caught up'. That's a bunch of crap. Several saw the opportunity to cheat on purpose and that's what they did. Some 'just got caught up' and don't know they cheated out of pure ignorance. The cheaters were either ignorant or flat out scum.

WTC can't be responsible FOR the athletes (athlete conduct) BUT they are absolutely responsible TO the athletes that pay the money, sign the waivers, and give it their all.

I pray that your friend has full recovery as well as everyone else that was injured because of situations that got way out of control.

Yeah, drafting looks pretty obvious in the questionable file. Lots of coasting and if you look at the segments, like Hardy Northbound, he cut about 4 minutes off his time on that segment on the second time through on 23 fewer watts and there's a lot of coasting. Much more than the first time through. Hardy Southbound is similar. His time was about 40 seconds faster the second time through on 166 watts with a lot more coasting vs 223 watts the first time.

He averaged 24 mph on 219 watts for the first half and averaged 24.8 mph on 171 watts for the second half of the ride.

Probably had a great run.

If there is one guy that should know it's Jimmy R. I am surprised he hasn't chimed in yet. Hopefully he will.
A WTC press release would be BS. I'd prefer to hear it straight from Jimmy.

I'm in the boat its a no win situation for the athletes. You're not passing a pack of 30 guys, the pack is just going to be too fast. So you either join in or give up your race, its that simple. I'm not saying its right, I'm saying the organizers put everyone in morally bad spot by having a course that either made it easy to draft or forced you to draft (i.e. no room on course). Adding to that you have a race with draft packs where a large amount of athletes aren't comfortable and haven't trained in a pack with a bike not designed to for pack riding and it seems like there are a lot of unnecessary hospital visits.

My take on it would be if what you're doing is testing yourself,etc. then don't draft. If you're out there racing others and most everyone is doing it, then at some point you're just a sucker if you don't join in (basically the doping situation that existed in cycling).

Your assuming that the packs are there regardless. They have to build from one guy getting on another guy's wheel and so on until the group is made. With marshals those guys are incentivized not to latch onto a passing wheel, limiting the development of groups.

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"Only those who risk going too far can possibly find out how far one can go." T.S. Elliot | Cycle2Tri.com
Sponsors: SciCon | | Every Man Jack

No it isn't. One of the first safety rules for drones is never fly over large groups of people. If you lose contact with that drone and it comes down......

you are right. As someone who chose to give up my race let me tell you why: I was afraid of getting caught. I kept thinking that the marshals were about to bust everyone and I didn't want to be a part of it. And I figured get off the bike under 6 hrs and you can still KQ. Boy was I wrong!

So in the end what needs to be done is simple: more officials. It really is that simple.

I am very sorry to hear this and hope she recovers well. I would also love for a PIP lawyer to take this case on commission and test the strength of their waiver against a charge of gross negligence for hosting a large event without adequate refs to ensure a safe environment for the athletes. If WTC lost a lawsuit on this front, I bet you would see some serious enforcement going forward.

Two guys in my AG who raced in 17 and 18 who are pretty good athletes(KQ'ers) rode over 30 minutes faster this year than last, they ran about the same. Must have done some big cycling blocks!!

My 4:39 from last year would have been dusted. Run times were not too great compared to last year, those cycling blocks come at the cost of run fitness.

Sorry. Gotta disagree.

Many years is a drone pilot at this point. And you are right about the not flying over large groups of people, however, a drone could be very easily be hovering 25 yards to the side so not over anyone and be transmitting in 4k to race officials who would be able to easily zoom in and read bib numbers.

Right now, Costco is selling the mavic pro for 800 bucks. 30 minute flight time per battery, with extra batteries being reasonably cheap, 4K video, 40 mile-per-hour drone. No one's going to out bike it, you can fly it safely, and I bet there are millions drone nerds like it me out there that would be happy to be flying marshals.

Drones are loud AF. I think the sound of one of them coming along side and tracking a group will be enough to break it up in most cases.

Hell, the mavic is so easy to fly you can literally draw box around a group of people and it will track them from 25, 50, however far away you want to set it and crab sideways videoing them.

The tech has been there for years. The cost is minimal. WTC IS choosing not to take advantage of it.

Start of Boston Marathon uses tethered drones. They stayed up the entire time the starting area was open. Obviously they're stationary but 2-3 along the course at unknown points might be enough of an assistance to mobile marshals....

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________________________________________________________
Taylor Rogers

2024: IM Hamburg

Can't beat em, join em?

Takes a lot of Integrity to make that statement. That was supposed to be in pink.

I like the approach of the, I'm assuming Brazilian, Pro I saw at Oceanside this year. One of those packs caught her, then just sat up and soft pedaled in front of her because nobody wanted to do the work (cheaters being cheaters).

She rode up alongside of them and started swearing at them in Portuguese. Reading them the full-on Riot Act.

Earned a fan in me. That's for sure.

I have not read the rest of this thread today and not to defend Jimmy, but he's just responsible to ref the race with the resources that he is given to work with. He does the best with that. If his guys are not allowed on the highway to do the reffing, then he can't do much. I would imagine that Jimmy would have voiced objections. If his guys where not allowed on the course during the race, then his hands are double tied and handcuffed. If he was told that his guys would not be allowed on the course before the race, then I am certain he would have pushed back.

But let's see what happened. I don't imagine that IM will issue an apology.

For the people that crashed, my heart goes out to them (I can barely walk due to complications from a two rider crash while making a pass at IM Switzerland 2011 and going into a house).

However in the case of a pack in the vicinity, the only way to crash is if you are actually in the pack or the pack literally body checks a rider they are passing as they go by and you are dropping back. The latter can happen but if there is hesitation as they pass and you put the gas on and become part of the pack, then the dice are rolled because there is an option to not be in the pack in the first place. Once in the pack all bets are off....tri geeks on TT bikes with deep rim wheels and discs and trouble in tight quarters.

Dev

Did you come upon the pack of 30 guys from behind, by going faster than them? Why not just keep going faster than them and pass them? What am I missing here?

If they passed you, then they were going faster than you, and you have no basis for trying to pass them. What am I missing here?

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"Go yell at an M&M"

WTC doesn't care about drafting, this isn't something new. They care about registrations and selling tee shirts, so as long as people are giving them money, I wouldn't expect much change. They don't appear to care about doping in the AG field either.

You can't pass a bike pack of 30 people.

I caught one in Oceanside. I passed it. They hopped on my wheel and started drafting. Maybe if I dropped a Sandersesque 450 watts on them for 15 minutes straight I could have dropped them.


The problem is, that for Mortals like us, let's say I bump up to 350 or 400 watt to pass them and try and drop them... for them to sit on my wheel while I am burning all these matches going 300-plus Watts, they are only using about 60% of energy to go the same speed because they are drafting. So my 300 watts is them pushing 200...

Do you understand where the problem comes from now? And that 200 is just the guys in the front of the pack. The guys in the back are burning 150, if that, to keep up with someone pushing 300 watts at the front.

So if I'm going along at 24.5 moh hour, and I catch up to a pack going 23 miles an hour, when I pass them, they simply hop on my wheel, burn 60% of the energy I am, and don't let me get away.

All this changes on a hilly course.

Eta: point is, you can CATCH a pack, but you need to be able to put out MORE than 150% of the effort they are to drop them. Basically, when drafting, you only use about 2/3 the energy as the person in front of you. So in order to drop them, you need to be putting out almost double the energy they are.

Can you blast past a pack and stay away? Yes, but the amount of matches you would have to burn to do so would come back to haunt you on the run in a huge way unless you are some sort of super stud

So they draft you, and you couldn't drop them. Big deal. Does that mean you are cheating? No. You caught and passed them. If they then sped up in order to re-pass you, you can just do the same speed you were doing, but at lower wattage due to the draft effect of a large pack of riders going past you at a higher speed, and let them go. A win for you.


So, which is it? You can't pass them, or you did pass them?

Still not seeing the issue. Ride your own pace, pass those you catch holding the same pace (at lower wattage), keep your own pace afterwards. Doesn't matter what those you pass do after you pass them.

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"Go yell at an M&M"

driver_ian wrote:

The story I heard this morning is that WTC was limited on the number of motorcycles that they were allowed for marshals on the course by State Officials. The number I heard was 3 motorcycles and WTC choose to marshal the PRO race. I can't state this as fact but that was the discussion at breakfast this morning.It is clear to me based on my on course observations what nearly all the age groupers choose todo.

Maybe they had only enough money to pay for three toll tags...

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Once, I was fast. But I got over it.

I get what you are saying. This is essentially what I ended up doing after trying to play the futile keep in front of them strategy where i burned some matches. There were large packs followed by small packs followed by... get the picture? To stay legal I literally soft pedaled for up to 10 minutes at a time while people blew by me constantly because there were no legal gaps. Who wants to race this way?

I also think it is ridiculous to expect someone to not be outraged for having to pull a bunch cheaters with questionable handling skills cm from their wheel on a damn tri bike.

The bottom line is they don't just cheat themselves, they negatively impact the race for everyone out there, from stealing slots, to screwing up race plans, and putting people in the hospital.

When you were "soft pedalling", were you going slower than you had been before the packs passed you? If they were passing you, you didn't need to slow down, since they were going faster and they'd likely each be out of your draft zone without you having to slow down.

When a pack passes you, you have a choice: either maintain your speed at a lower wattage and enjoy the free rest, or speed up and maintain the same wattage and cheat along with the pack. Your call. Packs form when people choose the latter option. Period.

If someone with sketchy bike skillz is drafting me, they are the ones who are likely to crash if they come into contact with me, not me.

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"Go yell at an M&M"

"I also think it is ridiculous to expect someone to not be outraged for having to pull a bunch cheaters with questionable handling skills cm from their wheel on a damn tri bike. "

+1

Everyone on the IM bike course put in a lot of sacrifice to be there and some drafter could literally wreck all of that.

https://www.strava.com/activities/1537866111#38413173878


180w Avg power, 24mph. the amount of 0 in the cadence is crazy.

There is a lot of talk about the men and their splits and not much about the women.
- Women 30-34.... Top 5 bike splits 4:43 - 5:02 . Marathons 3:22-3:44, 9:40 took the last podium spot. (The 3:22 marathon was by the 5:01 bike time.)
- women 35-39.... Top 5 bike splits 4:46 - 5:07. Two 3:32 marathons. 9:48 took the last podium spot.
It keeps going. There weren't as many women on the course but there were several deep in the middle of the pack with a lot of coasting going on. Fast swimmers seem to have phenomenal bike splits likely because they got with very fast packs. Then their runs. WOW. There are a lot of women on the edge of going pro.

It was a fast day but this was nuts. One of the people who cheer hard on the run course every year at the Moxie Bridge told me he was confused as to why the runners looked so fresh. He didn't know there weren't any marshals on the course at that time. Apart from the cheating it wasn't safe and that was scary. My heart goes out to those who crashed.

Wow. You guys must go positively apeshit while watching all the travelling--um, I mean cheating--in basketball.

Look at 10:25:40 on the video above. Is this a UCI race? The peloton is Tour size worthy!

*sigh*

Can you read?

To wit "I PASSED IT, THEY HOPPED ON MY WHEEL"

But yeah, thanks for only quoting PART of my text to try and spin it. Cherry pick much? Dick.

2 bits says you draft and are trying to justify.

If you CATCH a pack, even if you are going faster, THEY will draft, and it's nearly impossible to drop them.

Rest of my story? I got so frustrated with them drafting that I pulled over, came to a complete stop, then followed 50 yards back, about 1 mph slower than I would have liked to have ridden, and called them out for the next 5 miles until I blew by them once there were hills.

Just take a look at the NB and SB Hardy Toll Road Segments - the amount of 26+ mph splits at under 180w is crazy.

https://www.strava.com/segments/14700803


https://www.strava.com/segments/14700825

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Strava

And as far as the "ride your own race and don't worry about the guys drafting on you" bullshit, that may apply to MOPers, but when you are in contention for a podium, doing that you are burning matches while a weak biker behind you can save energy to pass you on the run.

I'm a swim/bike strong, survive the run guy. Others are bike run, swim run, whatever..

Point is, we have to work with our strengths to win... If people who are weak on the bike CHEAT to a fast bike, it doesn't just neutralise a person who is a fast biker and relies on that to get to a podium, it gives an extra unfair advantage to the cheater.

But yeah, I guess if you suck, or just don't put in the work, it won't matter or seem important to you.


He'll, even though I suck, it still matters to me, but I guess that's because I have principles.

Cheaters suck. If you don't agree, you suck too.

I left two groups who tried to hang on to me. The key is do it like a cycling race, and hit them hard when one tires or pulls off, the boom, out of the saddle for 15sec to open 50m and then settle into a good sustainable power. If you are truly stronger, they won't come back to you.

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"Only those who risk going too far can possibly find out how far one can go." T.S. Elliot | Cycle2Tri.com
Sponsors: SciCon | | Every Man Jack

How many matches did you burn though?

I've been in breakaway in bike races as well. Even did the solo suicide thing a few times...

Breaking away or bridging to a breakaway burns so much there is no way I could run after the way I could with a constant efforg.

Besides the drafting, does no one ride to the right anymore? What a mess.

Editing to ask: was there a paratriathlete team or something? Before 15 min into the linked video from the tollway, there was someone with a trail-a-bike...

oh please. Ironman can't even get the race tracking working or a finish line video to work. They have no hope for a drone to do what you are suggesting.

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It was not bad really, my normalized power went up a bit, but never to a point where I was working too much. I felt good to the end and while I ended up riding at a power a bit higher, it was well within my overall range.

The key is to get the gap and then get super aero so as to make the advantage stick. I barely looked up after those attacks just so I could get my cda as low as I could, thinking if I did not give off a draft, they will have to work like demons to pull me back (and those weak minded idiots obviously didn't want to work)

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"Only those who risk going too far can possibly find out how far one can go." T.S. Elliot | Cycle2Tri.com
Sponsors: SciCon | | Every Man Jack

This is the place where people regularly claim sub 5 bike times on 170 watts, riding clean

https://twitter.com/...243219681280/photo/1

170 watts here! ^

Very sad to see IM ghetto-izing these races stuffing 2000+ people into these courses in order to make more $.
Unfair to put onus on athletes and referees to sort it out. Until we stop tipping at the IM windmill with dreams of Kona heaven and signing up for these races, this drafting crap with persist.

I seem to have struck a nerve. Wonder why that is? The idea that someone would go slower than they could because of the actions of others seems really odd.

In 30 years of triathlon, I've never been penalized, nor have I ever drafted.

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"Go yell at an M&M"

You podium guys are awesome. And principled. And polite, to boot.

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"Go yell at an M&M"

Fascinating.

This thing you do where you read part of a post, and then somehow miss where said post's author clearly states something... is it a conscious choice you're making, or are you actually incapable because cognitive dissonance won't allow you to see a bigger picture?

I know, I know, if it is some form of cognitive dissonance, there's not really any point in asking.

I'm a decent 45-49F but I am extremely blown away by the older female times not mentioned above. I feel a little better learning about the massive drafting. Otherwise I'd just give up on my Kona quest right now!

Winner of the 45-49F did a 4:46 bike and 3:09 marathon for a 9:10 overall. Second place was a 9:28 overall.

Winner of the 50-54F was a little over ONE HOUR faster than last year's winner in that age group and she (2017 winner) is a very fast and experienced athlete.

I will most likely not ever sign up for IMTX because of the massive cheating/draft packs/no marshals for age groupers unless things change in the future. My own coach described it as "one big cheat fest".

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Death is easy....peaceful. Life is harder.

I wonder how many people are now thinking: "I could set my all time PR there next year!" And then go, I guess a clue might be how quickly IMTX fills up next year.

As everyone has mentioned and shown with blatant evidence, the peletons were horrible. The most irritating issue with me is that I was getting yelled at by an official for moving out of the way of the pack into the shoulder.

I said "You'd rather me draft this pack than ride of the shoulder?!", the response was a shrug and a head nod saying yes. No penalties, no nothing. Riding the shoulder is frowned upon though.

I'm thinking the opposite......I think more people will be turned off by this years event. Why travel to an event that not only has an unsafe bike ride due to packs etc, but also has lost a ton of respect/credibility.

Eh, it'll be a mixed bag.

I'm finding it interesting that I haven't seen a lot of race reports or PR brandishing. I wonder if it's the shame or knowing they will invite the wrong type of attention and get called out.

the Crushing Iron podcast guys had a take on it here: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DdHyh66k-fA

basically they're saying, and I agree to an extent, that crap like this will push people out of the sport, but unfortunately it pushes out the types of people whom we want to stay in it.

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Swimming Workout of the Day:

Favourite Swim Sets:

2020 National Masters Champion - M50-54 - 50m Butterfly

Peggy Yetman who won 50-54 has done a 9:44 at Ironman AZ if memory serves me correct in recent years. She was 4th at Kona 2017 and is so fast. This time was not out of the ballpark for her and I will defend her time based on previous results. This wasn't a one off. The 45-49 age group I'm not as familiar with but I agree 100% with you. It was a draft fest. I'm not writing it off for next year though as I am optimistic it will change. There has to be a lot of pressure on Ironman to make sure this doesn't happen again. (I would like to think the athletes feel pressure by their ridiculous bike/ run splits, but I won't give that much thought.) The run course was absolutely amazing. That's a reason on it's own to do this race. I really think it will be better next year. Wishful thinking??

I've seen a fair number of PR brags, including some pros....

that's pretty sad but I'm sure people will think that. It's one thing to choose a course that aligns best with your strengths but it's pretty bad choosing a course so they can cheat. I definitely know people who pick courses because they are flat but that's definitely not the same as cheating obviously

just saying....gravel racing is growing quick and we welcome triathletes of all shapes, sizes, and skill levels. It's a great crossover sport from ironman, since it is still requires the ultra-endurance mentality of Ironman and you can still use aerobars :)

I see that Rappstar signed up for DK200. Hopefully more top triathletes will make the switch soon.


Side note: When it comes to IMTX drafting and strava, i was initially looking at how much coasting (0 watts or 0 cadence) riders were doing, and deciding in my head that the coasters were all cheaters. While that has a high probability of being true, I also do think it's possible that a rider could sit a legal distance off the back of one of those packs and still have to repeatedly coast and brake to not get into the draft zone, as dictated by the rules. Even at legal distance, a rider behind a pack of 30 riders would get a significant benefit, but not technically break the rules. Is it still ethical? That's debatable. But, if you were riding at 24mph and got caught by a pack doing 25mph, it's reasonable that you could sit off the back at 25mph pushing the same wattage you were doing to hold 24, without breaking any rules. Am i wrong?

Agreed. I did IM TX last year but not this year because of too much travel for work.

Despite the described pelotons this year, I plan to sign up for IM TX 2019 because I'm optimistic IM will take action for next year's race as it sounds like there was more than the usual amount of wrecks due to pack riding. Also IM TX is a hometown race for me, which makes it a lot more doable because I don't have to pay for travel or take off from work.

maybe. Do you think it has much of an effect on MOPers and BOPers? I'm a MOPer and I guess it has some impact on me from a safety aspect and an annoyance factor during the race having to navigate my way around the peloton draft packs. My only experience with bad draft packs was a HIM Wilmington in 2016 when it was windy. I had to work really hard getting around draft packs or slow way down once that passed me. Definitely irritating.

in my mind, if you are riding legally then you are riding ethically, basically the rules in sports define the ethics within the normal course of the competition, and you use the rules to your advantage. (that said, there are a handful of situations that may be legal but are unethical, but that's a topic for another day).

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Swimming Workout of the Day:

Favourite Swim Sets:

2020 National Masters Champion - M50-54 - 50m Butterfly

No. Many off the back of lots of groups were doing this, as opposed to overlapping wheels. If there had not been peletons & people were holding 6 bike length gaps in a single file line, all of you that weren’t there wouldn’t be bitching about the drafting.

I was at the Hardy service road exit for well over an hour. Starky came through, then Ackermann, then the pack...which was one after another very obviously riding together legally. Then came the first AG pack that was blantantly drafting, then the second, then the women pros started coming through obviously having been swallowed up by the packs. I took a few iPhone videos so if anyone really wants to go on a twitch hunt I’m happy to share.

Zero motos. Zero stationary officials. No one in the penalty tent. There are several overpasses where one could camp out with binoculars and radio in race numbers. A camera on the side of the road would work just fine too. Saturday was really disgusting to watch.


Yes, there were 3 tandems and 1 bike w/ trailer.

I was one of those who did not draft. I knew it was happening but had no idea how extensive it was. What kills me is I trained hard to earn my PR on the bike (it was a great time for me) and I'm proud of it, but it gets diminished in more than one way: by those who drafted and got pro-like bike splits in my AG, and by others who just assume we all cheated. Thanks, cheaters...deep down you know you didn't earn it.

I'm a bit late, but it is not as simple as that.

The fact you ask means you've never been in the situation, which means never a pack, which is cool :)

Here's what happens, and happened to me in IM Switzerland in 2009, and it ruined the experience somewhat. The problem is the 'pack' does not ride at a constant speed.

Say you are cycling at your power and 30km/h.

• You catch a pack doing 28km/h.
• You pass them, having to put out more power than you need to make the pass, say at 32km/h
• They latch on to you as you pass
• Now they start to pass you one by one due to the draft effect.
• Now you are mid pack, and a cheating drafter.
• The pack starts to slow, as the people who passed you don't want to keep up the effort.
• So - do you now put on a spurt, burn matches, and get to the front? If so, the same happens again as above. Or, you lift off and find yourself following a pack at 28kmh, slower than you could ride.

It's very annoying - in Switzerland there is 30km flat along the lake. After that the hills start and things break up.

On lap two I caught a pack just as described above and ended up in the middle for a few km, unable to put the effort in to drop it and watching it get slower and slower as I tried to slow.

It's really tough, and not as easy as you'd think. It's like a crit race pack - it ebbs and flows.

The footage from Texas is probably the worst I've ever seen, though.

No, I don't think that it will affect the sign up of MOP and BOP athletes. That's IM's core group if you ask me. Not necessarily the bucket listers who are 1 and done and not necessarily the Kona qualifiers. Most of the athletes want a challenge that is close to home or relatively easy and inexpensive to get to. The Woodlands fits that bill.

That's why further up, I mentioned the need for 2 distinct categories...I guess 3. Pros. Kona hopefuls. Everyone else. Drug test and officiate the crap out of the first 2 groups. And, the third group is not an anything goes group, but is a less stringent subset...you know like the entire field at IMTX 2018. Would it be more work on race day or different logistics, yes. Would it provide a potentially fairer and safer race? Yes. How to address it on a 40-45 mile double out and back? Hard to say.

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Brandon Marsh - Website | @BrandonMarshTX | RokaSports | 1stEndurance | ATC Bikeshop |

Thanks for the polite description, rather than calling me names. Some questions:

If you are going 30kph, and the pack is going 28kph, why do you need to speed up to pass them? You have 15 seconds to pass each rider, not the whole group. How much faster do you need to go to dissuade this pack from speeding up to draft you, do you think?

If they then speed up to pass you, you are not a drafter until and unless they slow down in front of you (which can happen). This would seem to be a situation in which the rule to drop out the back of the draft zone should be ignored, and you should be allowed to pass immediately at your normal speed (which by definition is higher than the cyclist in front of you, and which should be a bit easier due to draft effects).

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"Go yell at an M&M"

The 9:44 was a nice improvement from 10:18:55 last year in TX. I'm not throwing stones. Just looking at data. A 29 min improvement on the bike from last year too. That all being said I still think the top older women are super impressive. Even if all the top AG women were drafting in TX, the older women were faster than the younger ones.

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Death is easy....peaceful. Life is harder.

I compared 17' to 18' for several AGs and many of the bike splits were 20-30 min faster. When you ride a 5:15 in 17' and all of a sudden you are down to 4:45, it makes you wonder. 30 min is a big improvement.

I think the ebbs and flows is important to note. 1 pack does not ALWAYS stay one pack. Sometimes it splits even mid pass. I've had groups start to pass me, then a few split off and pop right in front of me and slow down. It's just a PITA surging to pass the packs or slowing way down to drop behind them out of the draft zone. I can be a constant struggle trying to get away from packs all day long. It's much different if you just pass one person, they fall back, then you move on to the next person to pass if there is somebody close.

Agree. I think the sticking point is allowing "everyone else" to ride a tri bike. Will an insurer allow an RD to basically look the other way while hundreds draft on tri bikes? Maybe an insurer will, but will the premium be too cost prohibitive for WTC? Would IM "Gran Fondo" on road bikes be as profitable for WTC?

it's obviously complicated. I want rules to be followed and enforced. As a MOPer, I'm not concerned that somebody drafted on the bike beat me by 30 minutes because of that or something since I'm primarily out there competing against my own goals. Obviously there is still some level of wanting to be as high up in the results as possible but it's not the end of the world. What gets annoying is having to fight through those draft packs. Even at my skill level there are people drafting. It's annoying.

I am the 2017 W50-54 winner you are referring to: Peggy's time this year is legit and here is why she was an hour faster in the W50-54 AG this year.

1. Swim was wetsuit legal--usually a game changer for most and for me it saves me 5-7 minutes on an MDOT swim--not to mention less energy used on the swim due to said floaty wetsuit
2. Not as much wind on the bike course this year--we had major headwinds last year so times were slower last year than this year.
3. Less time spent riding the bike (in most cases, for those who raced both years, this year's bike course was 35 minutes faster). Less time spent on bike means more energy and usually faster times on the run
4. I had a lot of cramping issues last year on the run and basically stood still/walked some--which slowed my run split by a decent amount. Peggy was a collegiate runner and ran a 1:23XX at the Houston 2018 half marathon this year.

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leslie myers
http://www.foodsensenow.com

It's criminal for WTC to offer a championship and not having accurate split distances, & a well-marshalled course. You've got the time, staff and money to insure this. They have supported this NA disaster once again by holding it at problematic IM Texas, letting close to 3,000 athletes enter, and having a multi-lap bike course.

Fix it. It's not rocket science.

Most drafting I encountered was at a windy HIM Wilmington and i spent much of the day attempting to clear myself of packs. I was able to do it but expended energy I should not have needed to. I saw some marshals out there but as far as I could tell they only gave warnings. At least when I saw them. I guess I should be thankful they were out there

Your point number 3 above, mentions the bike course was 35 minutes faster. The bike was 35 minutes faster because the wind was more favorable this year versus 2017? I also read the temperatures were ideal in 2018. Are you implying those two reasons gave athletes a 35 minute advantage? Congrats on your 2017 win!

Hmmm. You could argue the front guys didn't draft as much, simply because there weren't many people in front of them to draft off. But with the women starting later, and generally being a bit slower on the bike, it might have favored them more (not talking about Peggy Yetman here, but more in general). Might be interesting to compare top 3/5/10 of each age group against times they've done before. I have most full distance ironman results of the last five years (except a few from last year) so could do such a check. Might just be a fun exercise, but will have to wait for the weekend when I might have some time.

At best, the bike course for the few of us that raced legal, was 5-10min faster than last year. 35min is a joke.

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"Only those who risk going too far can possibly find out how far one can go." T.S. Elliot | Cycle2Tri.com
Sponsors: SciCon | | Every Man Jack

Replying to this post but mainly to Leslie's peer athlete. It's not possible for the course to be 35 min faster unless

1. It was physically shorter by a lot
2. It was moved up to 7000 ft above sea level
3. There was a swirling tailwind all day that magically changed on a per rider basis
4. T2 ended up being lower than sea level at roughly the same position where T1 was above sea level
5. All of the above combined
6. None of the above combined, but with a lower wind day and with pushing less wind from a combination of legal and illegal drafting

I am pretty sure none of 1-5 apply to anyone at that race.

I was watching the live footage from the Houston Transtar during a conference call (watched most of it). It's really upsetting and disappointing to watch. I'd say about maybe 80% of the athletes were blatantly drafting on this video coverage. I wonder if there's any way to zoom in and catch some numbers to determine if any age groupers who landed on the podiums were indeed cheating.

My apologies if someone already posted this:
https://m.facebook.com/...;id=1526083630835352

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Death is easy....peaceful. Life is harder.

https://caitalexander.wordpress.com/...5/13/swim-draft-run/

So shocking.... with the entry fee being that high you’d assume they’d have marshals/officials along the course

I'm not going to argue that were were likely too many athletes on this course BUT what was the difference from 2017 to 2018?
- 2017 same number of athletes with marshals on the course. Some drafting but nothing big enough to be major news
- 2018 no marshals, somehow the athletes figure this out and the reason to follow rules disappears and huge dangerous packs form.

This is sad and is something I'm struggling with. If the only reason to follow the rules is a fear of getting caught what does that say about our sport?

You're surprised it turned into Lord of the Flies out there? I'm not.

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Favorite Gear: Dimond | Cadex | Desoto Sport | Hoka One One

This is sad and is something I'm struggling with. If the only reason to follow the rules is a fear of getting caught what does that say about our sport?

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That we are no different than almost every other sport except I would say golf. Golf for whatever reason, and for however they did it...integrity and calling your own foul is hugely important in golf (competitive golf that is). I'm sure there are other sports that are like that but I cant think of them. We as a sport have never pushed personal integrity/calling your own foul and then owning up to it. Neither does it happen basketball or baseball, or football or soccer.

We may not like that that's how our sport is, but we are a "officiated" sport much more than an individual integrity sport. We talk about following the rules, but we never hear of people actually turning themselves in for rules infraction, it's only if an official dings you. Not saying that's right, not saying that's wrong, that's just how our sport is. We may have wanted to be high integrity and call your own fouls, but it's never really materialized into that say golf does even today where the onus is on each individual to do the right thing and if they dont to penalize yourself (and yes you can probaly name a few time pro golfers "cheated" and got away with it).


ETA: And yes our rules say you have to follow the rules regardless of officiating there or not, I'm just replying that in general triathlon races turn into "you only broke the rules if you get caught", personal accountability isn't much actual deterrent in OUR sport, like it is in golf. And I'm not judging that, I'm just saying I think that's simply how it is.

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Brooks Doughtie, M.S.
Exercise Physiology
-USAT Level II

Well said.

I have nothing to argue against that with. You make a good point even though I don't like it or agree with it. I've often thought we, as athletes on the course, should call our own fowls and make others accountable or at least aware of the rules. I do this quite a bit and don't for one second thing I'm popular out there for doing it.

There was a woman who cut the bike short on a tri in Mexico last weekend. Marathon Investigation called her out on it. She stood atop the podium on a race with very few rules to begin with and taking top spot after a blatant course cutting "mistake" was a huge deal. She has since taken down her posts about the win and says it was a mistake.

Apparently there is a lot of grey area with the amount of cheating we're willing to accept. A nothing race cheater (maybe by mistake... I don't know), hits Marathon Investigation and some public shaming. Ironman Texas where some people are claiming 50% of the field cheated.... and we all know by looking at results who did by their insane fast bike followed by an insane fast run... and we let it go. Hopefully they get marshals out there next year. I loved so much about Texas, about the run, about the race. If the bike can be cleaned up somewhat I want to go back. I guess we will see.

Yes I can. Go look at pro golf where millions are on the line and cheating is very very rare. Again I’m talking competive golf, not weekend hackers playing mulligans, not counting strokes etc. I’m talking competition golf where people officiate themselves. It’s always been part of golf and always will be. Whether 180 in the tournament or 30, the golfers always officiate themselves, not rely on course officials to discipline them.

Hell golf is predicated on you cheering and hoping your playing partner makes the putt not to miss (even if you lose because of it). It’s built completely on good sportsmanship.

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Brooks Doughtie, M.S.
Exercise Physiology
-USAT Level II

yeah, but do golfers get cool finisher's medals?

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TEAM F3 Undurance

Bag of balls kid for 88th place!

Eta: actually 88th would get you dq’d half way through the tourney! Golf won’t let any hack finish, so tri has that going for them too!!!

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Brooks Doughtie, M.S.
Exercise Physiology
-USAT Level II

To be fair, for course cutters we have often done the same (Julie Miller, T3 woman, etc.), often initiated by people on this forum. It's just a lot easier to prove, and thus to get officials to agree to a DQ, when it involves missed timing mats and impossible split times. I don't know what Ironman could have done after the fact here. Their fuck up was during the race. Should they DQ people based on photos and the timing mat data posted earlier, days after awards and KQ slots?

I wish I could "like" this comment. You are right. It was a mess up from the beginning by Ironman. The issue still exists though that we "adults" should be able to play nice in the sandbox without our Mom or Dad standing by to stop us from throwing sand. This isn't golf but we are all capable of making the right choice. Apparently a lot of people don't believe the right choice applies to them. After the fact nothing can be done. The cheaters know, the rest of us know. Alan Couzins did a great job of trying to expose them. Ironman now needs to do their job to police us cause we aren't capable of doing it ourselves.

I agree re: sportsmanship. I've told this story about half dozen times her on ST, and, I don't think I've got a single comment about it. I verbally told Dan (Slowman, at WF a few weeks ago)...

A million years ago I was participating in a big tri in MN when the guy who won the overall (Mark C.) was reviewing the bike course map (post race) and realized that he was directed while he was in the lead to take a slight shortcut; it was less than 400 meters. His time gap would have had him win the overall if he'd been guided correctly. Upon his realization, he quietly DQ'd himself. No blaming, excuses, etc.

At the same event maybe a dozen years later I saw a guy who won the Clydesdale division DQ himself because while his weight was Clydesdale when he signed up; on race morning he realized he'd lost enough to take him out of the category. He would have been on the podium in his "normal" AG. No one would have ever known one way or the other what his exact weight was. He just did the right thing.

I have every confidence that some people capable of riding fast at IMTX did the right thing and followed the rules, problem is with the results of the day, it's harder to tell. And, sadly I haven't heard of anyone fessing up that they didn't really earn their time.

Certainly makes me wonder if I EVER want to do that race. Especially given that WTC has been mum on this issue - kinda embarrassing if you ask me.

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I saw this on a white board in a window box at my daughters middle school...
List of what life owes you:
1. __________
2. __________
3. __________

Alan's data was great, but the pictures that keep coming out have also been quite damning for some. A buddy of mine was one who made the decision to ride with the packs, basically took the view of "if you can't beat 'em, join 'em", and blames Ironman for the situation he was put in. Took a Kona slot. He looks bad in Alan's data, but even worse in the 6-7 photos that have been found of him in the packs. He might have gotten away with it with Ironman, but not with his some of his training partners, who shared the photos and called him out, and it has ruined some relationships.

And Ironman hasn't made a single statement about this, other than explaining why the marshals were pulled (although I still find it odd that they told the pros in advance that the 2nd loop wouldn't be marshaled, and I've seen no explanation for that). No apologies, no talks of what they'll change going forward, just silence. It seems they'll just wait out the storm, like they've done before. And they'll get away with it.

A well written personal account, calling out the dangers of drafting and calling out a bunch of the blatant women cheaters. Thanks for sharing. I hope the girl that crashed has no lasting effect and IM insures safety in future races.

Great point MBWallis about it not being addressed - Because I'm the least intelligent athlete on Slowtwitch here's my two cents: If they pull refs off the course due to safety due to mortor cycles they should just park the refs at various intervals between penalty tents, heck move them around every hour to keep athletes safe. Set up a live feed for the refs so they can flag riders and add time penalty to results, video proof should the athlete dispute.

It will take someone to die before they roll out a "cycle smart" campaign to keep people smart. Oceanside has a speed limit and no passing section were someone crashed many years ago, change can and should happen.
We can figure this out together.

Indeed. This should make anyone who reads it furious.

A well written personal account, calling out the dangers of drafting and calling out a bunch of the blatant women cheaters. Thanks for sharing. I hope the girl that crashed has no lasting effect and IM insures safety in future races. //

Yes, a good account of what went on out there, hope she is ok. But really sounds like she took part in some of the pack riding, and she was knee deep in the field when she crashed out. I'm sure if we ask everyone in the race, there would be mostly stories of I could not get out, or they swallowed me up and there was nothing I could do. But we know from footage that is not what happened out there, people just got frustrated and joined in, or they just plain took advantage of the unmarshalled situation..

if i read her response in the comments correctly, this is the crash she was in. if that's true then it sure does look like she was right smack dab in the middle of the pack. hard to tell if the pack was swarming around her and she was about to get spit out the back or if she was sitting in the pack though.

I have no knowledge if that was her crash or not, but like I said, no one was attempting to drop back or to the side of that group prior to the crash, they were all locked in and doing what most everyone else was doing in the race. And since by her own account she had gotten dropped(maybe backed off) from her first group, she would have been even more motivated to not lose the next train that came by. The frustration level out there would have been very high and intense, especially for folks that set out to ride a clean race that day and planned to be competitive in their respective AG's...

I've heard a lot of people saying they didn't really earn their time. From the time I entered the toll road until my crash I rode and average 200W @ 40.3kph (219W NP). There's no way I can do that solo. But behind 20 guys not in legal spacing it's easy, even with legal spacing which the data mostly agrees with. This is the situation for a lot of riders out there as well.

When people come from all round the Americas for this race, a lot of them to qualify for Kona, you know people will do what it takes. If there's no consequences to breaking the rules, they're going to be broken.

More for my own analysis amusement using the splits file here https://alancouzens.com/...MTexas2018splits.csv, I had legal spacing for all splits except one which was when our group was passing another group

Checkpoint / gap to next athlete / position in group / time for entire group through checkpoint
03.9M = 5sec - solo
16.6M =1sec - 5/7 (13 seconds)
38.3M = 0sec - 16/24 (18 seconds) - Passing Group - 8 of 24 not with us at next checkpoint
59.9M =1sec - 22/23 (13 seconds)
81.5M =1sec - 21/25 (22 seconds)
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103.2M = post crash / bleeding (group I was with up to 30 over 11 seconds)
112M = doesn't matter (group size 21 over 31seconds)

My back of the pack Hardy Toll Road power numbers:

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https://www.strava.com/athletes/nbrowne1

I actually had that exact experience at IM Switzerland years ago on that 30k section. It was my very first IM.

I would steadily come up on a big pack and pass them all. Didn't really need to up my wattage though except when they tried to contest it. They would just sit on me, draft and, maybe 30 seconds later, they'd all start going by again without ever dropping out of the zone.

At this point, I could try to push it to keep them from going by me or I could drop back. That is the point at which you need to surge if you want to stay legal. Not when you first go by them but when they try to come back over top without dropping out of the zone.

I tried surging to prevent the (illegal) passing few times but it was definitely burning matches. So I would sit up for 30-60 seconds, coast and drop out of the zone.

But when I then resumed pedaling at my previous effort, I'd start coming up on the damn pack again. After a few rounds of this, I gave up and just sat out of the zone at a lower effort than I wanted. Eventually they'd break up or something and I could go by people normally.

It was far from ideal but it turned out to be the the right call. It meant I had a lot more energy for the run. And it was the only legal way to ride that didn't require me to surge.

I did IM Switzerland in 2016. For the most part, it was a pretty clean bike ride, but I was passed by a small group on the flat of the 2nd lap. Staying the legal distance behind them put me under my target power so I passed them, but was repassed again. I knew where this was going so I just stayed the legal distance behind watching the pack grow as they scooped up more people. Then came the moto who carded a guy who had just gotten pulled in and I remember thinking to myself that they missed the wheel sucker that I had viewed from a distance behind. I was thinking he was going to have a kink in his neck for the number of times he checked for the moto. Fortunately, as soon as we hit the hills he - and the pack -was done.

Just got caught up with the Phil Mickelson controversy from the weekend where he hit the moving ball back toward the hole and I remembered this discussion. It seems Mickelson knew exactly what he was doing and made a calculated decision to take the penalty. He obviously didn't need to turn himself in. Was what he did cheating or just taking advantage of the rules? Did his decision break the golfing code of playing with high integrity? The announcers seemed to think so.

I haven't time to read much what other golfers are saying about his actions. Unless Mickelson takes a serious shot to his reputation, I guess maybe golf isn't that different than triathlon. Seems similar to people who draft in triathlon and are willing to take the potential penalty because they know the drafting will save them more time than the penalty will cost them.

 I guess maybe golf isn't that different than triathlon.//

Except that Phil knew he would 100% be getting a penalty. The triathletes are rolling the dice, most races proabably 90% not getting a penalty, in Texas it was 100% not getting one. So I would say not only are they different, but virtually opposites in that regard..

I see your point.

100% Mickelson has more honor in sport, he did his crime knowing he would get his punishment. People can argue if it is enough or not, but the triathletes are cheating and thinking they will 100% get away with it, and most do...