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Re: A Very Large Group Ride aka Ironman Texas [Petrus101] [ In reply to ]
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Alan's data was great, but the pictures that keep coming out have also been quite damning for some. A buddy of mine was one who made the decision to ride with the packs, basically took the view of "if you can't beat 'em, join 'em", and blames Ironman for the situation he was put in. Took a Kona slot. He looks bad in Alan's data, but even worse in the 6-7 photos that have been found of him in the packs. He might have gotten away with it with Ironman, but not with his some of his training partners, who shared the photos and called him out, and it has ruined some relationships.

And Ironman hasn't made a single statement about this, other than explaining why the marshals were pulled (although I still find it odd that they told the pros in advance that the 2nd loop wouldn't be marshaled, and I've seen no explanation for that). No apologies, no talks of what they'll change going forward, just silence. It seems they'll just wait out the storm, like they've done before. And they'll get away with it.
Last edited by: mbwallis: May 16, 18 16:59
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Re: A Very Large Group Ride aka Ironman Texas [CaliB] [ In reply to ]
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CaliB wrote:
https://caitalexander.wordpress.com/2018/05/13/swim-draft-run/

So shocking.... with the entry fee being that high you’d assume they’d have marshals/officials along the course


A well written personal account, calling out the dangers of drafting and calling out a bunch of the blatant women cheaters. Thanks for sharing. I hope the girl that crashed has no lasting effect and IM insures safety in future races.
Last edited by: wetswimmer99: May 16, 18 19:00
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Re: A Very Large Group Ride aka Ironman Texas [mbwallis] [ In reply to ]
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mbwallis wrote:
Alan's data was great, but the pictures that keep coming out have also been quite damning for some. A buddy of mine was one who made the decision to ride with the packs, basically took the view of "if you can't beat 'em, join 'em", and blames Ironman for the situation he was put in. Took a Kona slot. He looks bad in Alan's data, but even worse in the 6-7 photos that have been found of him in the packs. He might have gotten away with it with Ironman, but not with his some of his training partners, who shared the photos and called him out, and it has ruined some relationships.

And Ironman hasn't made a single statement about this, other than explaining why the marshals were pulled (although I still find it odd that they told the pros in advance that the 2nd loop wouldn't be marshaled, and I've seen no explanation for that). No apologies, no talks of what they'll change going forward, just silence. It seems they'll just wait out the storm, like they've done before. And they'll get away with it.

Great point MBWallis about it not being addressed - Because I'm the least intelligent athlete on Slowtwitch here's my two cents: If they pull refs off the course due to safety due to mortor cycles they should just park the refs at various intervals between penalty tents, heck move them around every hour to keep athletes safe. Set up a live feed for the refs so they can flag riders and add time penalty to results, video proof should the athlete dispute.

It will take someone to die before they roll out a "cycle smart" campaign to keep people smart. Oceanside has a speed limit and no passing section were someone crashed many years ago, change can and should happen.
We can figure this out together.
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Re: A Very Large Group Ride aka Ironman Texas [wetswimmer99] [ In reply to ]
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wetswimmer99 wrote:
CaliB wrote:
https://caitalexander.wordpress.com/2018/05/13/swim-draft-run/

So shocking.... with the entry fee being that high you’d assume they’d have marshals/officials along the course


A well written personal account, calling out the dangers of drafting and calling out a bunch of the blatant women cheaters. Thanks for sharing. I hope the girl that crashed has no lasting effect and IM insures safety in future races.

Indeed. This should make anyone who reads it furious.
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Re: A Very Large Group Ride aka Ironman Texas [wetswimmer99] [ In reply to ]
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A well written personal account, calling out the dangers of drafting and calling out a bunch of the blatant women cheaters. Thanks for sharing. I hope the girl that crashed has no lasting effect and IM insures safety in future races. //

Yes, a good account of what went on out there, hope she is ok. But really sounds like she took part in some of the pack riding, and she was knee deep in the field when she crashed out. I'm sure if we ask everyone in the race, there would be mostly stories of I could not get out, or they swallowed me up and there was nothing I could do. But we know from footage that is not what happened out there, people just got frustrated and joined in, or they just plain took advantage of the unmarshalled situation..
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Re: A Very Large Group Ride aka Ironman Texas [monty] [ In reply to ]
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if i read her response in the comments correctly, this is the crash she was in. if that's true then it sure does look like she was right smack dab in the middle of the pack. hard to tell if the pack was swarming around her and she was about to get spit out the back or if she was sitting in the pack though.


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Re: A Very Large Group Ride aka Ironman Texas [Sean H] [ In reply to ]
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I have no knowledge if that was her crash or not, but like I said, no one was attempting to drop back or to the side of that group prior to the crash, they were all locked in and doing what most everyone else was doing in the race. And since by her own account she had gotten dropped(maybe backed off) from her first group, she would have been even more motivated to not lose the next train that came by. The frustration level out there would have been very high and intense, especially for folks that set out to ride a clean race that day and planned to be competitive in their respective AG's...
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Re: A Very Large Group Ride aka Ironman Texas [manofthewoods] [ In reply to ]
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manofthewoods wrote:
And, sadly I have heard of anyone fessing up that they didn't really earn their time.


I've heard a lot of people saying they didn't really earn their time. From the time I entered the toll road until my crash I rode and average 200W @ 40.3kph (219W NP). There's no way I can do that solo. But behind 20 guys not in legal spacing it's easy, even with legal spacing which the data mostly agrees with. This is the situation for a lot of riders out there as well.

When people come from all round the Americas for this race, a lot of them to qualify for Kona, you know people will do what it takes. If there's no consequences to breaking the rules, they're going to be broken.

More for my own analysis amusement using the splits file here https://alancouzens.com/...MTexas2018splits.csv, I had legal spacing for all splits except one which was when our group was passing another group

Checkpoint / gap to next athlete / position in group / time for entire group through checkpoint
03.9M = 5sec - solo
16.6M =1sec - 5/7 (13 seconds)
38.3M = 0sec - 16/24 (18 seconds) - Passing Group - 8 of 24 not with us at next checkpoint
59.9M =1sec - 22/23 (13 seconds)
81.5M =1sec - 21/25 (22 seconds)
-----
103.2M = post crash / bleeding (group I was with up to 30 over 11 seconds)
112M = doesn't matter (group size 21 over 31seconds)

My back of the pack Hardy Toll Road power numbers:



https://www.strava.com/athletes/nbrowne1
Last edited by: nbrowne1: May 18, 18 1:38
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Re: A Very Large Group Ride aka Ironman Texas [bluefever] [ In reply to ]
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bluefever wrote:


I'm a bit late, but it is not as simple as that.

The fact you ask means you've never been in the situation, which means never a pack, which is cool :)

Here's what happens, and happened to me in IM Switzerland in 2009, and it ruined the experience somewhat. The problem is the 'pack' does not ride at a constant speed.

Say you are cycling at your power and 30km/h.

  • You catch a pack doing 28km/h.
  • You pass them, having to put out more power than you need to make the pass, say at 32km/h
  • They latch on to you as you pass
  • Now they start to pass you one by one due to the draft effect.
  • Now you are mid pack, and a cheating drafter.
  • The pack starts to slow, as the people who passed you don't want to keep up the effort.
  • So - do you now put on a spurt, burn matches, and get to the front? If so, the same happens again as above. Or, you lift off and find yourself following a pack at 28kmh, slower than you could ride.

It's very annoying - in Switzerland there is 30km flat along the lake. After that the hills start and things break up.

On lap two I caught a pack just as described above and ended up in the middle for a few km, unable to put the effort in to drop it and watching it get slower and slower as I tried to slow.

It's really tough, and not as easy as you'd think. It's like a crit race pack - it ebbs and flows.
.


I actually had that exact experience at IM Switzerland years ago on that 30k section. It was my very first IM.

I would steadily come up on a big pack and pass them all. Didn't really need to up my wattage though except when they tried to contest it. They would just sit on me, draft and, maybe 30 seconds later, they'd all start going by again without ever dropping out of the zone.

At this point, I could try to push it to keep them from going by me or I could drop back. That is the point at which you need to surge if you want to stay legal. Not when you first go by them but when they try to come back over top without dropping out of the zone.

I tried surging to prevent the (illegal) passing few times but it was definitely burning matches. So I would sit up for 30-60 seconds, coast and drop out of the zone.

But when I then resumed pedaling at my previous effort, I'd start coming up on the damn pack again. After a few rounds of this, I gave up and just sat out of the zone at a lower effort than I wanted. Eventually they'd break up or something and I could go by people normally.

It was far from ideal but it turned out to be the the right call. It meant I had a lot more energy for the run. And it was the only legal way to ride that didn't require me to surge.
Last edited by: JoeO: May 18, 18 8:02
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Re: A Very Large Group Ride aka Ironman Texas [JoeO] [ In reply to ]
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I did IM Switzerland in 2016. For the most part, it was a pretty clean bike ride, but I was passed by a small group on the flat of the 2nd lap. Staying the legal distance behind them put me under my target power so I passed them, but was repassed again. I knew where this was going so I just stayed the legal distance behind watching the pack grow as they scooped up more people. Then came the moto who carded a guy who had just gotten pulled in and I remember thinking to myself that they missed the wheel sucker that I had viewed from a distance behind. I was thinking he was going to have a kink in his neck for the number of times he checked for the moto. Fortunately, as soon as we hit the hills he - and the pack -was done.
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Re: A Very Large Group Ride aka Ironman Texas [B_Doughtie] [ In reply to ]
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B_Doughtie wrote:
This is sad and is something I'm struggling with. If the only reason to follow the rules is a fear of getting caught what does that say about our sport?

-------

That we are no different than almost every other sport except I would say golf. Golf for whatever reason, and for however they did it...integrity and calling your own foul is hugely important in golf (competitive golf that is). I'm sure there are other sports that are like that but I cant think of them. We as a sport have never pushed personal integrity/calling your own foul and then owning up to it. Neither does it happen basketball or baseball, or football or soccer.

We may not like that that's how our sport is, but we are a "officiated" sport much more than an individual integrity sport. We talk about following the rules, but we never hear of people actually turning themselves in for rules infraction, it's only if an official dings you. Not saying that's right, not saying that's wrong, that's just how our sport is. We may have wanted to be high integrity and call your own fouls, but it's never really materialized into that say golf does even today where the onus is on each individual to do the right thing and if they dont to penalize yourself (and yes you can probaly name a few time pro golfers "cheated" and got away with it).


ETA: And yes our rules say you have to follow the rules regardless of officiating there or not, I'm just replying that in general triathlon races turn into "you only broke the rules if you get caught", personal accountability isn't much actual deterrent in OUR sport, like it is in golf. And I'm not judging that, I'm just saying I think that's simply how it is.


Just got caught up with the Phil Mickelson controversy from the weekend where he hit the moving ball back toward the hole and I remembered this discussion. It seems Mickelson knew exactly what he was doing and made a calculated decision to take the penalty. He obviously didn't need to turn himself in. Was what he did cheating or just taking advantage of the rules? Did his decision break the golfing code of playing with high integrity? The announcers seemed to think so.

I haven't time to read much what other golfers are saying about his actions. Unless Mickelson takes a serious shot to his reputation, I guess maybe golf isn't that different than triathlon. Seems similar to people who draft in triathlon and are willing to take the potential penalty because they know the drafting will save them more time than the penalty will cost them.
Last edited by: Mark Lemmon: Jun 18, 18 19:00
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Re: A Very Large Group Ride aka Ironman Texas [Mark Lemmon] [ In reply to ]
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 I guess maybe golf isn't that different than triathlon.//

Except that Phil knew he would 100% be getting a penalty. The triathletes are rolling the dice, most races proabably 90% not getting a penalty, in Texas it was 100% not getting one. So I would say not only are they different, but virtually opposites in that regard..
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Re: A Very Large Group Ride aka Ironman Texas [monty] [ In reply to ]
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monty wrote:
I guess maybe golf isn't that different than triathlon.//

Except that Phil knew he would 100% be getting a penalty. The triathletes are rolling the dice, most races proabably 90% not getting a penalty, in Texas it was 100% not getting one. So I would say not only are they different, but virtually opposites in that regard..


I see your point.
Last edited by: Mark Lemmon: Jun 18, 18 19:23
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Re: A Very Large Group Ride aka Ironman Texas [Mark Lemmon] [ In reply to ]
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100% Mickelson has more honor in sport, he did his crime knowing he would get his punishment. People can argue if it is enough or not, but the triathletes are cheating and thinking they will 100% get away with it, and most do...
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Re: A Very Large Group Ride aka Ironman Texas [monty] [ In reply to ]
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monty wrote:
100% Mickelson has more honor in sport, he did his crime knowing he would get his punishment. People can argue if it is enough or not, but the triathletes are cheating and thinking they will 100% get away with it, and most do...

My perception of most triathletes who are known to draft in multiple events is that they think a lot like Mickelson did in that situation. Breaking the rules is worth it. Of course, they are happy if they don't get a penalty, but they know it is a possibility.
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Re: A Very Large Group Ride aka Ironman Texas [Mark Lemmon] [ In reply to ]
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Essentially lefty drafted to gain 12 mins in exchange for 5 min penalty. Issue is, Phil knew it was an penalty and took it. In tri it’s simply a penalty *only* if you get caught or tell on yourself. We just don’t have anyone in tri willing to narc on themselves because imo “integrity” isn’t really that big of a deal. And like I said I’m not saying that in a bad way. I’m sinply saying we are a sport that has taken out personal accountability in exchange for someone governing our actions. Even if the rules say you should race respectfully with or without officials....

And monty I thought it was an DQ offense as I thought the actions most certainly gained an advantage but I’m not too muffed over it as he’s gotten clowned petty hard for that event.

ETA: Again I'm not saying it's bad what our sport has become. It's ok that we are an "officiated" sport vs a personal accountability sport. Neither imo is right, they just both have very different accountability setups.

ETA #2- so sometimes to me, bringing in "integrity" into triathlon is kinda like ok cool.....we all want everyone to race fair, but we wont. So we'll just deal with this type of shit at every flat, fast course with 2.5k people.

Brooks Doughtie, M.S.
Exercise Physiology
-USAT Level II
Last edited by: B_Doughtie: Jun 18, 18 19:47
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Re: A Very Large Group Ride aka Ironman Texas [B_Doughtie] [ In reply to ]
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it's a little much for me to say phil cheated. he was out of the tournament long ago prior to this happening. it was definitely a fuck it moment. to relate it to ironman, it's like the 15 hour finisher saying fuck it and riding in one of those groups. very different than people going for KQ and taking a free ride to a 4:25 bike split. if phil would have been in contention, no way he would have done this.
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Re: A Very Large Group Ride aka Ironman Texas [Sean H] [ In reply to ]
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Sean H wrote:
it's a little much for me to say phil cheated. he was out of the tournament long ago prior to this happening. it was definitely a fuck it moment. to relate it to ironman, it's like the 15 hour finisher saying fuck it and riding in one of those groups. very different than people going for KQ and taking a free ride to a 4:25 bike split. if phil would have been in contention, no way he would have done this.


I agree it was that kind of moment for Mickelson. There have been pros who've got drafting penalties and have finished on the podium and there is no doubt that they push the envelope regarding what they can get away with, as pros do in all other sports, except maybe for golf.
Last edited by: Mark Lemmon: Jun 19, 18 6:34
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Re: A Very Large Group Ride aka Ironman Texas [Sean H] [ In reply to ]
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I’m only relating it to IM in how each athlete and sport applies it’s rules. And yes he mentally quit long ago this weekend and thus wanted no part of being “embarrassed” by having to go off the green to play next shot.

So how you want to compare it to IM just make sure you add the drafty serves the penalty. That’s the reality. Golf serves penalty’s 99.99% of their fuck ups. Tri? 10%?

Brooks Doughtie, M.S.
Exercise Physiology
-USAT Level II
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Re: A Very Large Group Ride aka Ironman Texas [Mark Lemmon] [ In reply to ]
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The interesting part is that we as a sport play much more like golf where your likely on your own much more than in front of officials but we behave as if it’s officials call to keep the race honest. Which is funny because in almost all “officiated” sports the athletes and officials are always together in a defined area.

How many IM officials do we have on average for a bike? Even if they focused entirely on pros would their be enough to watch them whole time?


And maybe the reality is AG triathlon is essentially weekend hackers in golf. When I play on weekend with buddies and no money on the line, if it’s inside leather, we pick it up and move on. If we are in a tourney of course we play it out. So maybe this is more objectively specific to professional racing.

Brooks Doughtie, M.S.
Exercise Physiology
-USAT Level II
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Re: A Very Large Group Ride aka Ironman Texas [B_Doughtie] [ In reply to ]
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B_Doughtie wrote:
So how you want to compare it to IM just make sure you add the drafty serves the penalty. That’s the reality. Golf serves penalty’s 99.99% of their fuck ups. Tri? 10%?

True. Imagine all the drafting people voluntarily pulling into the penalty tent for a 5-minute rest break. :)
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Re: A Very Large Group Ride aka Ironman Texas [summitt] [ In reply to ]
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summitt wrote:
I compared 17' to 18' for several AGs and many of the bike splits were 20-30 min faster. When you ride a 5:15 in 17' and all of a sudden you are down to 4:45, it makes you wonder. 30 min is a big improvement.

Far be it from me to defend the draftfest that is Ironman, but a quick look at weather data tells me that IMTX had quite a bit more wind in '17 than '18.

To use my data point of one from a different race, I did the old B2B half in 2010 and 2011. The '10 race was a beautiful day with light winds, and I rode a 2:45. In 2011, there was spitting rain at times and a nasty headwind for the majority of the course (remember B2B/NC is a lopsided out-and-back) and I rode a 2:58, and worked harder to do it.

Probably need to look at the creamy center rather than the pointy end to get a better idea how much speed was gained, and know how much can be written off to weather.
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Re: A Very Large Group Ride aka Ironman Texas [monty] [ In reply to ]
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Mickelsons calculation was that the cost of the of breaking the rule outweighed the actual penalty.

A person who elects to draft intentionally is calculating the benefit of drafting vs the risk of getting caught.

Gamesmanship can be sneaky, or self-serving but it speaks to honor in no way.

Monty do you remember when Kitajima beat Hansen in the 100 breast in ‘04 doing a dolphin kick off each wall? That is a similar situation to the ironman tx drafting. Essentially the risk of getting caught was null. I defended him then so after some reflection I kind of defend the drafters. Or at least have come to some semblance of peace with it.
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Re: A Very Large Group Ride aka Ironman Texas [ajthomas] [ In reply to ]
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How can anyone that respects the sport say that they defend the drafters?? The general mentality with drafting now has changed the sport to a semi individual sport. I realize that with over crowded courses drafting is sometimes unavoidable. But the attitude of many seems to be that they look for opportunities to pick up free time without doing the work.

So... why do these people do triathlon? To brag about their bike split? Knowing they cheated? I don't get it and I don't understand the mention of defending the drafters because... there aren't enough marshals anyways?

We pay a lot of money to race, invest a lot of time and effort training. When I race I want to be in a fair contest to test myself against others. Respect the sport! If you're not willing to race for yourself, by yourself, within the rules, why not go for a group ride and brag about your bike split then.
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