Since you made a misleading subject line let me put the whole quote here. Feel free to change the subject.

You can kiss my ass.

I'm not a fan, but it's maybe worth providing full context. Sen Kennedy did not say that teachers can kiss his ass. He said that there are some people who want to keep schools closed to gain political advantage, and that those people can kiss his ass.

He also said that he knows that some people disagree with him in good faith about the risk of opening schools, that he respects that position, and would like to have that debate.

---

Slowguy

(insert pithy phrase here...)

I was expecting immediate capitulation.

Do not let things like accuracy get in the way of the messaging

+1000 points

---

I miss YaHey

Which, indirectly he is telling to teachers as they are the ones affected by the decision to re-open schools.
I find the statement about keeping schools closed for political gain rather ironic. Since, the WH and its enablers are re-opening schools precisely for political gain.

No. Just no. He made a very specific statement, and was careful to acknowledge opposing viewpoints, and you tried to gaslight the LR. I think we have enough of that in the real world already, so there's no need for you to add to it.

You don't have to agree with him, for sure. But you don't get to claim he told teachers to kiss his ass either.

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Slowguy

(insert pithy phrase here...)

Oh so it's indirectly now? Kinda how the Wermacht indirectly attacked the Maginot line?

How is the WH opening schools in local school districts? If the schools in my district open on Sept 1st you believe this is because the WH opened them?

Why stup to the far rights tactic's. Your headline is beyond misleading and down right false, that's not what he said to teachers.

I don't get it, you only make yourself look like them and by using their same techniques you in a way validate it all.

JUST STOP..
His quote is bad enough on its own, it doesn't need twisting.

---

Just Triing
Triathlete since 9:56:39 AM EST Aug 20, 2006.
Be kind English is my 2nd language. My primary language is Dave it's a unique evolution of English.

Then you and I will just agree to disagree. His stated

"America's going through a rough patch right now. Some people seem to be enjoying it. Maybe they just hate America. Maybe they just enjoy watching the world burn. I think some are liking the chaos because they think it gives them a political advantage. Part of that chaos is caused by school's closing. For our kids, we need to open them,"

Besides the idiotic statements that people hate America and want to see the world burn, ending with "for our kids we need to open them" is just a major F U. Like many other states, they have no real plan in place. It's let's open schools and see what happens. He's just taking orders from the WH.

And for the record, there are some rationale to reopening schools for kids: increased violence at home, food insecurities among others. But just not without a plan.

Cut him some slack. The lack of cheese in his area of Florida makes him grumpy

No, he is not saying that to teachers at all. In his exact quote, he is directing his message to those people who want to use children as pawns in this disgusting game. Now, some of those people may be teachers, or plumbers, or doctors, or hairdressers, or mechanics....do you see where this is going?


There is no indirect message. There is a direct message because, well, he specifically identified the group he was talking about.

Come on. What evidence is there that ANYONE is trying to keep schools closed for political gain? That narrative is just BS, and any honest broker knows it.

It is so very Trumpian to do some thing for political gain (insist schools must re-open, without a coherent plan to do so safely), and then accuse those who are concerned about the health risks of pushing back only for political gain.

So I agree with Francois. Sen Kennedy knows exactly what he's doing. If he's really concerned with the health and safety of kids, teachers, administrators and other employees, he should be working constructively to find solutions, not using divisive language as he did.

The WH has already threatened to withhold federal funding to schools who refuse to reopen.

Cough Cough Anerican Academy of Pediatrics cough cough.

Sorry I had some baguette crumbs in my throat that I choked on when I read your post.

We're not agreeing to disagree. You lied. You tried to gaslight the LR and got called on it.

If you wanted to debate the validity of Sen Kennedy's position on opening schools, you could have done so honestly, but you chose not to, in favor of going with clickbait headlines that deliberately misrepresented his comments.

You'd think people so opposed to Pres Trump based on his record of lying and misleading, you'd have some aversion to doing the same thing.

---

Slowguy

(insert pithy phrase here...)

I disagree with you. Maybe I'm wrong. But I still take his statement as a major F off to teachers.

No, it is not a major "fuck you" to anyone. He clearly stated using the kids as political pawns was what he disagreed with. There may be some valid reasons for opening or not opening, some of which you yourself just stated. So its pretty clear to see he supports decisions made in good faith, while at the same time telling people to kiss his ass if the decisions are made unethically.

I support people getting married if they love each other and want to start a family. I do not support people who get married to cheat the system. To the latter group, I tell them they can kiss my ass.

See the difference? Same outcome, different levels of support from me.

Hey look you tried to make the thread about Trump. Kudos for waiting until the third sentence. Therapy is working albeit slowly it seems.

Well you're wrong.

So if my school district re-opens on Sept 1 it is because the WH and their enablers re-opened it. Correct?

Since I didn't interpret his comments the way you did, you just can't argue that. His statements are a F off to teachers. Period.

If you want to have that discussion, by all means, have at it. Nobody here is defending Sen Kennedy's position on school opening. But Francois doesn't get to roll in and claim Sen Kennedy told teachers to kiss his ass.

---

Slowguy

(insert pithy phrase here...)

Hey look, your instinct to defend Trump pops up in about your third post of the thread. Of course this is about Trump. Stop being an ass.

EXACTLY

---

Just Triing
Triathlete since 9:56:39 AM EST Aug 20, 2006.
Be kind English is my 2nd language. My primary language is Dave it's a unique evolution of English.

I can argue that you lied in your OP and with the title of your thread, which is what I'm arguing.

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Slowguy

(insert pithy phrase here...)

There. I fixed the original title...Are you still disagreeing with it now?

You're interpretation is wrong. I'm impressed at the double down

Well, at least now you're lying about a different group of people that he supposedly told to kiss his ass.

You're a pretty smart guy. Maybe on the third try you could get it right.

Fuck. I guess some of you have just given up on the high road, and are perfectly fine with stooping to the level of the opponent you've been railing against for almost 4 years.

---

Slowguy

(insert pithy phrase here...)

Wonder if he tells Trump to kiss his ass for demanding that schools open for political reasons. I mean, that would be consistent at least

Yup calling you out is defending Trump. You and Francois seem to have the same interpretation skills today.

No. Trying to pretend this isn't about Trump is defending Trump. You're trying to distance Trump from the issue, when his greasy, fat, stubby fingers are all over it.

nope, you are still wrong

I agree, if schools don’t open, they get no funding. Are we going to keep paying for schools or labor that are not providing a service? My son is supposed to start his senior year The third week of august. Not a peep, phones not being answered by humans, Calls not being returned.
Every neighbor I talk to wants their children back in school. Except for the one that calls the sheriff when kids are playing in the park.

He must be really pissed at DeVos and Trump then.

---

I'm beginning to think that we are much more fucked than I thought.

I thought the issue was a blatantly false and misleading original post and subject that has now been even more bastardized?

I can appreciate the anger or zeal in disagreeing with offering our children and employees as sacrifices to the golden calf of American consumerism.........but, the tactic on misrepresenting what he actually said is low brow.

He didn't specifically tell teachers to kiss his ass. I don't even feel that was implied.

It's more productive to use the actual full context quotes of people like him.

Our governor said it how it is yesterday. This isn't the actual quote, but from what I remember it sounded like "if you want the kids to go to school, wear the damn mask and follow the rules!" All the people bitching about wanting to reopen and send kids to school not following any good guidelines at all. Acting like it's fake.

I really wonder how WWII would go down today. Trying to convince the populace to sacrifice monetarily and socially (outside of the human toll).

Many schools are planning for online teaching. Technologically, it's doable. Should someone be answering the phone? Absolutely. Should education continue? Absolutely.
There are many things we can do to make it as safe as possible, without pushing all the responsibilities down to teachers. Without making it unsafe for them either.
I am not arguing against reopening. I'm arguing against reopening with a real plan, with support from leadership at the state and federal level.

France would still surrender

Whatever. I said Kennedy was being Trumpian, which he was. You didn't like that. It was not off topic.

So he was being Vichy?

As I said, my intent was not to misrepresent what he said. I said it multiple times. I took his comment as a F U to the teachers, and thus indirectly telling them to kiss his ass.

Now, if there were additional statements clarifying what he said, and that were not in the article I posted, I'm happy to stand corrected. But based on that article, I still think it's implied.

I saw the thread, title, post, and then clicked on the article without reading any replies.

Read the article, then went to write a reply and saw the thread had already gone exactly the way I'd hope/expect.

You didn't misrepresent you created a fiction out of whole cloth.

I have no idea who he is pissed at. What I do know is that this quote was about the rationale behind making a decision. Whether or not opening schools is the right answer, I can absolutely support someone who wants that decision made for the right reasons. He is not telling teachers to fuck off. Francois even offered his own thoughts as to how opening schools could be beneficial. So maybe thats the conversation people want to have, even in the face of this pandemic, people are looking at possible pros vs cons. If Francois can find those possible pros, why is it so asinine for a politician to want reasons based in that logic as well? Nope, instead, he's got to have some ulterior motive. Must light up the torches and grab the pitchforks!

His quote was telling people using children as pawns to fuck off. Not teachers. What is wrong with wanting people to be grounded and use sound logic?

Again, if I tell people who want to get married for the wrong reasons that they're assholes, am I then telling all people who want to get married that they are assholes? Am I telling ministers or priests that they're assholes? What about the wedding venues? In fact, if I call out people who cheat the system and tell them they're assholes, am I telling ANYONE else other than that specific population that they are assholes? No, this whole thread is stupid and Francois is doubling down.

Why is Francois so caught up on teachers? Why doesn't he think he's telling the students to kiss his ass? Or the parents?

Nonsense. Either your intent was to misrepresent his comments, or you are too lazy to have read the article, or you are too stupid to understand that your OP was a lie.

You can pick any of the three options above, but you can't credibly claim that you were quoting his specific comments towards people with political motives, but interpreting them as directed towards teachers in a general figurative way.

---

Slowguy

(insert pithy phrase here...)

If only Sen Kennedy had said something like that,....oh wait, he did. He specifically stated that he understands there are people with good faith reasons for not wanting to reopen, and that he wants to have that debate.

We could have had a realistic and well thought out debate on school reopening, based on Sen Kennedy's interview. Instead, we're arguing about why Francois decided to use the same lying and misleading tactics he and so many (including myself) have decried when used by Pres Trump and his surrogates.

He really should be embarrassed.

---

Slowguy

(insert pithy phrase here...)

If my friend was talking to a bunch of young military recruits, and he said "Some of you are only here for the prestige and glory. You aren't here for the right reasons so you are a disgrace and mock us all." Do you also take that to mean he is calling ALL of the recruits or all service members a disgrace? Is that a big "fuck you" to the rest of them? Or is he specifically identifying a small select few?

I find it very difficult to follow your logic. He said "To them I say, unashamedly,..." And in the preceding sentence he identifies the "them" as those specific people who want to use this situation for political gain. I've no earthy idea how you take that comment to be a broad brush against the teachers and their union.

This is my problem with politics and emotional responses. People take a portion of sentences or arguments and use them as attacking points. If someone says "Even though the virus is deadly, there are very real reasons we should consider allowing people to x, y, or z." But people don't wait around to hear that. They've been conditioned to fire up the engines and start the mob. Nope, its much more realistic and advantageous to say people hate teachers, want to sacrifice children, don't care, etc. etc. Are there politicians who abuse power and say that shit? Sure. But apparently the hardware stores are all out of small brushes. Broad brushes are all we see anymore.

We can't have disagreements that lead to beneficial discourse anymore. This is why politics is spiraling down the drain out of control, and taking the populace with it. "Something good can't possibly come from a differing opinion, nu uh." Rabble rabble rabble!

Teachers and unions oppose reopening schools (the majority of them anyway, and until there is a real plan in place).

He said

"There are some people who want to keep our schools closed because they think it gives them a political advantage. They are using our kids as political pawns. To them I say, unashamedly, that they can kiss my a**,"

Newsweek reached out to him for comments on this. He hasn't so far. So maybe he can start by clarifying who the "there are some people" are?
Or is that straight out of the Trump playbook of making fuzzy statements so he can recant later? If he clarifies, I'm happy to admit I was dead wrong.

you're going to be banned for a few days, brother. i want you to read this tho, first, so that you know why, and i want everyone else to know why you're not posting here.

---

Dan Empfield
aka Slowman

And you think that Sen Kennedy thinks it's teachers who are looking for political advantage? Seriously? Stop digging.

You forgot to add what he said subsequently:

"I know some people in good faith disagree with me, and I respect that. Let's have the debate."

"...they can kiss my ass. That's just wrong, to do that to the kids of America. Not the people in good faith, just those who are enjoying the chaos because they think it's going to help them in November."

---

Slowguy

(insert pithy phrase here...)

It's a joke Dan. Would croissant have been better? Palmier? If you see the whole post it was to point out the American Academy of Pediatrics wants kids in school and Francois seems to ignore that fact.

Probably a good idea as Francois was getting pummeled in this thread, and rightly so. Good of you to step in and call it.

Seriously? He pretty explicitly clarified who the SOME PEOPLE are. You quoted it yourself. Its right there in the quote! The "some people" are the ones referred to in the bolded. Holy shit.

So, let me make sure I understand correctly.
He made an ambiguous statement about people trying to prevent schools from reopening to gain political advantage. But 'some' are in good faith. And I'm supposed to assume that those in good fait are all the teachers because basically you told me that your interpretation of his statements is the correct one. Gotcha.

You don't have to assume that those who have good faith reasons are all the teachers. All you have to do is not assume that when someone talks about people looking for political advantage in November, that he really means teachers, because, you know,...that makes no fucking sense.

Stop. You're not this dense. At this point you're just being obtuse.

---

Slowguy

(insert pithy phrase here...)

your joke was in poor "taste." your joke was at another's expense. one of your jokes made me pretty upset last week. maybe you'd better rethink your jokes.

---

Dan Empfield
aka Slowman

Ah, man. I don't presume to tell you how to do your job but, there are far worse offenses on this forum, and people take repeated jabs at each other.

Maybe you're right. Maybe I am assuming the worst from Sen. Kennedy.
Why wouldn't he just say: "I know teachers are in good faith". Why not avoid ambiguity? I find it funny that you're criticizing me here for not portraying his statement accurately, when this is just an online forum read by a few folks who like to discuss and argue, and you're comfortable with him going on live TV making ambiguous statements akin to the orange turd in the WH, and with millions of viewers.

actually, yes, you are presuming to tell me my job. and that's okay. expressing opinions are what these forum boards are for, and i don't mind you expressing yours, even if it's presuming to tell me my job.

this forum is about 20 years old. you've been here for a good amount of that time. but you may not be in full possession of all the tactics by which certain users get under the skin of others users. it's kind of like trump's more outrageous statements, which he makes, and then tries to play of as jokes afterward. but he knows exactly what he's doing. i can't do anything about trump's behavior, except to vote in november. but i can do something about the behavior on this forum.

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Dan Empfield
aka Slowman

Is there some allusion to French bread that I am unaware of that makes it in poor taste?

I've hidden his posts so I don't really care. Ironically, windy the whole knowing sends me personal messages to figure out how randomized control trials work and I have to explain at length.
But on the forum is comfortable with personal attacks.

As for the AAP, I'm very familiar with it as I work with several of them. They don't highlight how to operationalize reopening. They highlight what should be achieved. The AAP is a medical organization. They don't run schools.

Because it's not really ambiguous, and because it's not only teachers who have good faith reasons for opposing school reopening. Do you want him to list every specific sub-group of people? What about parents? Kids? Janitors? School administrators? Politicians? Non-school related professions?



The statement was not ambiguous. He specified the people he was talking about. If you fall into the camp of people opposing school reopening and embracing the chaos of the virus as a political tool, he says you can kiss his ass. If you have good faith reasons for opposing school re-opening, he respects that and would like to have further discussion. That's not ambiguous at all. I hate to break it to you, but all teachers do not fall only on one side of this debate.

We can debate all day whether we think he actually believes what he said, or whether his position about school reopening is the best course of action. But his statement was not ambiguous, he did not tell teachers to kiss his ass, and the more you try to defend your nonsense, the worse you sound.

---

Slowguy

(insert pithy phrase here...)

Yes, but in reality, are there any people actually pressing for schools to remain closed for political gain? I think we both know that this simply isn't happening. Almost every commentator I've seen in recent weeks who has discussed this issue has begun with a clarifying statement that "Let's be clear: we all want kids to be back in school."

In contrast, there is arguably plenty of evidence to suggest that members of the GOP want schools to re-open regardless of the risks. They see it as politically beneficial to them in November, because if schools are still mostly closed because of the pandemic, it will highlight what a shitty job they have done to contain it.

Even Betsy DeVos was on TV the other day saying, "There is absolutely no reason at all why schools would not re-open in person this fall." So essentially these people are pushing for schools to re-open at the risk of worsening the COVID outbreak and costing lives, for their own political gain. And they have the gall to accuse those concerned about the health of kids and staff of seeking political gain. Again, it's so Trumpian and it's disgusting.

C'mon dude, you were being a dick with all your surrender, Maginot, baguette references. This isn't your first rodeo.

---

Slowguy

(insert pithy phrase here...)

Well, I find his statement ambiguous. Good for you if it's clear.
I don't really care if I sound worse to you and a few others, frankly. You've already called me, stupid, dense, obtuse. I may have forgotten a few.

I actually said a couple of times that you weren't stupid or dense. I did say you might be acting deliberately obtuse.

You should really stop lying about what people say.

---

Slowguy

(insert pithy phrase here...)

Does it even matter if the group he is referencing exists or not? He could have been referencing teachers who are unicorns or leprechauns, as long as he specifically said unicorns and leprechauns could kiss his ass then he wasn't telling anyone else to kiss his ass.

He has openly stated he is open to having debate on rational reasons to close or open schools. But he would not entertain those people who only argue for opening based on political gain. If none of those people exist, then so be it. He still made his stance known. He is open to logical debate. Not sure why this needs to be said 100 different ways.

Um, yes it matters. Because if those people don’t exist then it means his whole statement is a lie and intentionally divisive. Let me re-paste it here for you to read agin, in the context that he, you and I know that these people don’t actually exist.

“America's going through a rough patch right now. Some people seem to be enjoying it. Maybe they just hate America. Maybe they just enjoy watching the world burn. I think some are liking the chaos because they think it gives them a political advantage. Part of that chaos is caused by school's closing. For our kids, we need to open them. There are some people who want to keep our schools closed because they think it gives them a political advantage. They are using our kids as political pawns. To them I say, unashamedly, that they can kiss my ass.”

So Francois telling Windy to kiss his ass and go fuck himself is okay (I'm not sure if he deleted that fuck yourself post of it was deleted), but a joke about french bread is unacceptable?

I get it, Windy can and has stepped over the line. I get your frustration, but you continue to publicly call him out far more than anyone else that also breaks rules over and over and everyone thinks that means the rules about insulting people don't apply to him and so throwing personal insults at him is free reign right now.

Francois is completely in the wrong on this thread and has no backing to what he is saying and frankly should be ashamed of the blatant hypocrisy.

---

~Brad

francois, in my opinion, took liberties in his representation of what senator kennedy said. my job here as a moderator is not to call out, and to ban people, for each infraction associated with debate, reading comprehension or critical thinking. if it were, i'd have banned a whole spitload of people here for not understanding what francois writes about epidemiology which, when he writes it, is coming from an epidemiologist. i don't argue with slowguy about how hard it is to put out a fire on a ship on which he served. but you guys want to argue epidemiology with an epidemiologist. fine. have at it. it won't get you banned. arguing epidemiology when you clearly have no clue what you're talking about is allowed here. making fun of someone's nationality is a problem for me, altho i let it go an awful lot with the problem some of you guys appear to have with canadians. i let it go because it doesn't appear to overly bother the canadians who, as a group, seem to be made of sterner stuff than a lot of the americans here.

see slowguy's post just above. i'm familiar with our longtime members. you may not like my politics, but i'm not an idiot. let's not either of us insult the other's intelligence. okay?

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Dan Empfield
aka Slowman

FYI, AAP revised their statement a few days ago:

“Returning to school is important for the healthy development and well-being of children, but we must pursue re-opening in a way that is safe for all students, teachers and staff. Science should drive decision-making on safely reopening schools. Public health agencies must make recommendations based on evidence, not politics. We should leave it to health experts to tell us when the time is best to open up school buildings, and listen to educators and administrators to shape how we do it."

https://services.aap.org/...to-school-this-fall/

Continuing, sen Kennedy is another cockamamie repub,who possessing high intelligence, supports with nuance/contortions many absurd trumpian positions. The aw shucks senator calling others out is a joke.

Can you say with 100% confidence that there are definitively no individuals who want schools closed for political purposes? Given our political climate, you dont think there exist corrupt individuals who want nothing more than to see society fail under Trump so he doesnt get reelected? Politicians use our livelihoods as leverage all the time.

You can absolutely 100% claim that those people or the possibility of those people do not, and does not exist?

Do you think maybe, as a politician, he might have more knowledge of behind closed doors talks or off the record information than we might have about most all topics? Specifically with regards to how things go behind the scenes.

We may disagree with that opinion, which is fine with me. I dont mind disagreements. As long as people’s reasons are grounded, much like the senator had claimed. Disagreeing that those people might exist is fine, which would change how you and I view his statement. I believe they exist, given our current political climate, and that is clearly who he was referencing.

But Francois’ argument isnt what you have presented. He is just being obtuse.

That's some fine hypocrisy right there. I've been on this forum for nearly as long as it has existed. I've heard a lot of xenophobic BS, in particular from windy who once again is pretty comfortable asking me to explain stuff to him in PM but then in the LR is very comfortable writing a bunch of shit. The difference is that when he does so, I tell him, instead of pretending to be 'just joking' as he puts it. As long as he continues to be two face about it, so will I.

And I deleted my post about tell him to F off because I thought that wasn't warranted. I know I get hot headed, so I deleted it. And I've admitted I was wrong before here, unlike windy and a few others. If Sen. Kennedy answers Newsweek and clarifies, I've said I'd admit to being wrong again.

So you believe enough of those people exist that it's warranted for the senator to refer to them? Is that your position?

That wasnt me presuming to tell you how to do anything. It was a preface that while I wont tell you what to do, or was curious that you would take that action given some of the other posts in this forum. Forgive me if it came across as that. It was more of a curt statement looking for clarification as to why so many other instances go unchecked. I did voice my displeasure with the action, but I did not tell you how to do anything.

As Brad has said, you do come down hard on Windy. Your forum, your rules. But the lines you draw are curious. In your reply to Brad, you said “I let it go because it doesnt seem to overly bother the Canadians.” Obviously talking about the banter that goes on. But Francois said this didn't bother him, so it strikes me as curious.

I have taken some real issue with the way some posts are reworded and baseless attacks are made against personalities. I experienced it myself but Im not going to run and tell on anyone. We are big boys and girls. A lot of shit is thrown on this forum, and you come down on some personal attacks or posting styles, and not others. That is your prerogative. You yourself have said that if multiple posters align with some notion than perhaps there is some truth there. This has been brought up more than a few times since I have been a member.

My thoughts on the matter, solicited or not. Thanks for listening. And thanks for putting up with us assholes who think the world deserves to hear our thoughts.

Stop moving the goalposts. Why does it matter whether is it 2 or 200 individuals? If he believes there to be one single person who exists that will hold that belief, then he has every right to speak his mind on it.

Please tell me what number constitutes “enough” to make it acceptable for you? Because to me, one person who is willing to use children as pawns is one too many and should be called out. Just like one racist. Or one sexist.

He is calling out a specific group and you need to tell me you can say with 100% certainty that none of theme exist if you hope to convince me he is playing mental gynmastics.

Until then, it is absolutely acceptable and plausible for him to make that statement. Hes arguing in support of healthy debate and dismissing politics. We should be commending that, instead we’re arguing about it.

Y'all are some disingenuous mother lovers around here.

If Kennedy wanted to have a conversation about opening schools he could have done that. Nope, he said some people want to keep schools closed for political reasons, but couldn't be bothered to name them. And they could kiss his ass. Not exactly the way to initiate a conversation.

Windy likes it because he knows that he is talking about the woman that is head of the NEA. And Windy hates him some NEA. But of course as head of the NEA, it is be definition part of her job to speak for a whole lot of teachers. And you may try to claim she doesn't speak for the teachers, but I have 2 teachers and a school librarian among my brother in law and nieces. And they keep reposting the things she says. So I'm going to take their word for it.

Francois just posted what Kennedy really meant. And none of you are so dense as to not have known what Kennedy actually meant. Instead, you try to pile on Francois to change the subject. Because that subject is pretty bad. Because there are people in this administration who are willing to open school and increase the death toll for political purposes. I don't know. Maybe Kennedy was looking in the mirror when he said what he said. Maybe he has been trying to kiss his own ass.

---

I'm beginning to think that we are much more fucked than I thought.

I would just concur. Dan, I was not trying to insult your intelligence in any way. I come here because it's an interesting forum that I have been around for 13+ years on. I don't post as much as some, but that is mostly to avoid some of the tribalism. I was just trying to point out what I saw as inconsistencies or double standards, and also point out that the way I have seen the Windy situation handled tends to open the floodgates of other posters to attack him in the same ways. I'm just a random guy on the internet, so take it how you will. Thanks for the great site, I heard a rumor it's about some sport or something too ;).

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~Brad

Let me perform some substitution mathematics here on that bottom quote using the bolded parts: "I think some are liking school's closing"

Bullshit. Ain't a parent I know here in NC that wants the kids at home. They feel they have to keep them home.

I fully feel the original quote was misrepresented to say that teachers could kiss his ass. But...........we get the drift. We're not fucking stupid. They're performing a trio of sins to try to win November: fudge and lie on the numbers, open things up to make it appear normal, pray to the golden calf of greed that the virus "just goes away" in the meantime.

It might not be fair to assume his sentiment about teachers, but given how anti-teacher's union most on the right are........it's not a stretch of the imagination to interpret what he said in such a way. It's not just a policy difference, they're often portrayed as the evil teacher union enemy. So when things like this get said, I can totally get it.

If you mention sport in the LR you get banned. Just be careful; you're on thin ice.

And that is pretty much it. Except you're remaining much more cool headed than I am. And the LR can't pile on you using some not so subtle white flag jabs and all.

See, if I wanted to insult you I would call you a Texan. No idea where you are now, I'm thinking Florida, and if so, that would be even better.

I heavily edited out the bad words so as to not incite a ban hammering.

---

I'm beginning to think that we are much more fucked than I thought.

Hey now, you don't need to bring Floriduh into this. We're doing pretty shitty on our own already.

I'm not moving the goalposts. It's pertinent to whether you believe he is being genuine or a POS. You seem to believe he is being genuine, despite the divisiveness of his comments, and the lack of evidence of any people wanting to keep schools closed for political reasons, and amid much evidence of people like Kennedy wanting to open schools for, among other genuine reasons, political benefits.

Imagine using teachers' health for political benefit... Anyone who does that can kiss my ass.

There are going to be some massive lawsuits if teachers get sick and die or become disabled, and the schools didn't take every safety precaution. Especially if there was pressure to open up despite knowing of issues.

And if a kid gets sick and dies...$$$

Not if Kentucky Mitch gets his way and passes legislation to protect the people who make bad decisions.

---

===============
Proud member of the MSF (Maple Syrup Mafia)

You are the one arguing in absolutes. Im the one arguing there is a higher probability some of those people exist. Im saying that without knowing definitely, you should be giving the benefit of the doubt. Thats pretty much how our legal system works with placing culpability.

You are claiming his comment is false because those people simply do not exist. You have a massive job proving that noone exists with that mindset. And given the political nature of 2020, and how politicians will be politicians, Im fairly certain there is a chance people will sacrifice us peons for political gain. The burden of proof is on you, Kay. Youre the one making the absolute claim that zero persons exist in the group he was referencing.

You used the word “enough.” So again I ask you, how many people is enough to appease you? How many people holding that belief will suffice to make you say “ok those were the people he was talking about.?”

Listen, Kay, Im not arguing over what the right move is. Im simply saying, he identified a group that is likely to exist, and none of us know what has been said behind closed doors. People on this forum have said a shitty economy and Trump’s massive COVID failure will help seal a democratic win in November. Are you really that naive to think there AREN’T people/politicians who wont use every opportunity to make this a failure?

Yes, I believe he genuinely thinks those people should kiss his ass and instead he wants to have legitimate discussions on legitimate pros and cons.

The divisiveness of his comments that you keep bringing up is red herring in this thread.

My wife teaches. 4 of my family members work in schools. We have this discussions daily. There are many pros and cons of both options for school this Fall.

But really, Kay, youre arguing an absolute on something you cant prove. Dont be that person.

No I’m not arguing absolutes. You can, I’m sure, find some fringe whacko who thinks schools staying shut is a good thing because it will hurt Trump. But YOU should not be that person who thinks this is in ANY way a mainstream opinion. It is ENTIRELY a made up issue by Trump and his loyalists to try to paint people who are genuinely concerned with the safety of kids and staff, as people playing politics with kids. All the while, all the while, it is THEY who are not just playing politics with kids and teachers, but are willing to do so by risking their lives. You are on the wrong side of this, and you yourself admit Kennedy was being divisive. This is not an issue upon which politicians should be sewing divisiveness. You of all people should feel this way if you have teachers in your family. Don’t try to win an internet argument on some technicality while ignoring the bigger issues glaring you in the face.

I read almost all I can on this forum (here and the side we cant talk about here). I dont post a ton, but know enough to have avoided this thread as long as I could. It is the magical trinity of Dan's ban hammer calling.

1. Repubs
2. Francois
... then
3. Nationally/ethnicity

First, it is a gross misinterpretation of a article used to paint a politician in a bad light. FINE.

Second, Francois doubled down on it by his own misinformed viewpoint. People call him out on his BS and Windy insults his nationality/background.

FOR FUX SAKE!!!! Did you not learn anything from The Forge? You can be a dick on this forum a bit. Actually, to quite a few people. BUT, when you mess with Francis you will get the ban hammer. Why do you even try to engage. It is like trying to kiss a stripper. It will just get you thrown out of the club.

That’s funny. You realized I’ve been banned 3 times as well? I’ve also been warned a couple of times.
Slowguy strongly disagreed with me and didn’t get banned. He said I was lying and a few other things but didn’t feel the need to be a jackass. Something windy seems to take pride in.

But I think I see what the issue is. Basically the right wing side of this forum seems to think that I should be grateful to this country for accepting and have the right to shut up about any issues. And if not, then it will resort time nationalistic BS. It’s been the trend over the years. Always from the same folks.

I entirely agree with what jpo posted earlier.

I know I have my own biases. And there are a few conservatives on this forum whom I respect and I listen to. Maybe some of you guys could assess your own biases too...

Kay, you said there are no people that hold that view and therefore his comment was nothing but a ploy.

I dont for one second believe this is a mainstream opinion. And Im happy about that. But I do believe there are people who buy into the politics enough to make those decisions. Jesus, look no farther than a few months ago where politicians gave a legitimate big “fuck you” to us small business owners with their relief loopholes. They ensured their buddies and interest groups got paid while thousands of small businesses were stepped on. They play with out livelihoods non-stop.

I dont think I admitted his intentional divisiveness for the sake of being divisive. If I did ok, but I genuinely dont remember typing that because I dont think its relevant here.

Im not on the wrong side of anything. Furthermore, where do you come off saying or assuming what side I am on on this matter? I said that I see the pros and cons of both options, and that this is something my family and I talk about regularly. What fucking side am I on?

And IF I did say what side I was on, and it happened to be the contrary to what you believe, what business do you have saying Im on the wrong side? Who made one opinion the right one, and the other opinion the wrong one?if I had legitimate reasons to support my choice, who the hell are you to say Im on the wrong side of a pancake?

  Did you see the piece on NBC Sunday night evening news? Maybe this will give some parents solace over the situation. It starts at about 13 min. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XCzYBmNltlM

It’s been pretty clear that children are less affected. I had written that in an other thread. As one of the docs pointed out it’s pretty much reversed from the flu. There is at least one systematic review showing this.

With that said, and although I really hope they are correct re children to adult transmission, the literature doesn’t support it at this stage. Many kids seem to remain asymptomatic but with still high enough viral loads.

I also haven’t said I was against reopening schools. I just said we need a real plan. The AAP statement isn’t a plan. It just says what we need to achieve. Not how. They also backpedaled a bit because it’s a medical organization, not a public health one.

What do you mean by less affected? Purely symptoms? Arent we still waiting to see the long term respiratory effects? I havent read up as much on that data recently.

i'm ambivalent about opening schools. i think i'm about 60 percent in favor of it. i'm just not sure. the case for reopening is strong. parents get to go to work. kids get to learn, and to eat. they don't get as sick. they *may* not transmit the disease back home.

but you're right. where's the plan? where's the best practice list for how to deal with kids going to school? that's the problem with opening schools. no strategy.

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Dan Empfield
aka Slowman

Actually the European data completely support it and you have flipped the burden of proof 180 degrees for the tangible severe negative consequences to your halting uncertainty.

We don’t know of long term effects yet. For kids anyway. Right now, for most children, the symptoms are less than a flu for most kids. Some kids do develop a systemic inflammatory response however. But mortality rate remains way lower than a flu.

You said his divisiveness was a red herring. That’s admitting he was being divisive. Period.

And I said you should not want politicians stoking divisions intentionally on this issue. That’s the side I would presume you should be on.

So you should be calling Kennedy out on THAT, IMO. But feel free to focus instead on whether or not I can prove a negative. If you’d rather play that game, prove to me anyone does want schools closed ONLY for political reasons.

Either way, you do you.

For me the bigger issue is politicians diminishing the issue of the safety of kids, teachers and other school staff, for their political benefit.

Strategies vary from district to district. My wife and her team have been working on plans based on the strategies they are given, for over a month. Now what the superintendent does with that information is a different story. Im certainly not happy with the leadership and actions of someone we pay a quarter of a million dollars a year for.

But rest assured, districts are putting plans together. We have tentative plans for all grade levels and transportation already over here. Is it feasible? No clue. But there are plans, wheels are and have been in motion. Not for as long as I would have liked though. Seems like an after thought. And thats one thing that scares me.

That’s simply not true. There is one study in France which is observational showing one child not infecting anyone in a small cluster of schools. This is indeed unusual and is one of the studies that led to checking whether there is a spread from children to adults.
There is also one study in Australia in NSW showing similar results but where they didn’t control for social distancing and other mechanisms in place and it’s clearly identified as a weakness by the lead author.

But then there is this https://zoonosen.charite.de/...d-by-patient-age.pdf

Which basically says there is no reason kids would spread it less. One study in Hong Kong where they also showed a less spread from kids posited that it’s most likely because most schools have been closed.

Mechanistically there is no reason children wouldn’t spread it. There are reasons though why they’d get less impacted.

Finally I didn’t change the burden of proof. I just said we need a plan for reopening schools. I have said from the very start that there are also very good reasons to reopen and I highlighted such reasons.

The Palm Beach health department director said they are seeing real damage to the lungs even in mild cases. I haven't seen your information regarding that, yet. You have given good information regarding the transmissions, but not symptoms that I saw. That was what sparked my question when you said its not affecting children. Are they finding respiratory damage?

I was referring to the divisiveness that you kept bringing up; I said that in the same sentence. The red herring was any other variable you were bringing into the argument that had nothing to do with his not-so-friendly offer to some specific group he was referencing. If it wasn't clear, I apologize.

I can't give specific names because I'm not saying they definitively exist. I was saying it was silly to claim none of them existed. I was giving him something plausible in his quote. Thats why this whole thread started. Regardless of how many card carrying members exist in the group of people he referenced, he still specifically referenced them. I don't know why we're so off track here. I feel like you're arguing with me just to argue.

I agree with you regarding the bigger picture.Which is also why I'm not sure why we're still arguing. Lets just be done with this.

Hope you're well down in Jersey. Wish we could get away down there, but not in the cards this year I don't think. Not that I think you're by the beaches.

I haven’t seen data at that level yet for peds patients. Only cases, severity, hospitalization and mortality in our system.

I’ve seen a couple of papers discussing cases of children with lung damage but they were believed to have some systemic inflammatory response or cytokine storm in these case studies. I haven’t seen reports of widespread cases as these in pediatrics unlike with adults.

Here https://www.frontiersin.org/...fped.2020.00206/full
Provides some explanation as to why children seem less affected.

Much appreciated!

My reference was to a national plan.

---

Dan Empfield
aka Slowman

Is there a particular reason why a national plan is necessary or would even be beneficial? My impression is that we tend to leave most management of school to State and local agencies and officials. I’m not sure that having the federal government lay out a plan that all school districts would have to adhere to would actually serve the students or faculty. We know that every school district, and even every school, have their own specific circumstances, student loads, surrounding community, etc.

Moreover, do we really want a plan from Sec Devos?

---

Slowguy

(insert pithy phrase here...)

What ^ he said.

What about federal funding for the safety measures needed to help keep students and staff safer? Instead the government has only threatened to withhold funding for those districts that don’t reopen. Is that leadership?

My wife's school has a plan but there are so many holes that it is a joke. It comes down to wear a mask and use common sense. My wife teaches 2nd grade, when does common sense come into play?

---

_____
TEAM HD
Each day is what you make of it so make it the best day possible.

I saw if that way as well, until you were called out and the entire statement was posted. So either your comprehension is terrible or you purposely misled this entire thread and expected everyone to get on board and pretty soon your wrong summary could go viral.

Kudos to those that called you on it. We have enough misinformation flying around and name calling just makes you look a lot like Trump.

i am not a guy who thinks a check is the answer to everything. however, i do think the real tragedy of this pandemic in this country is the lack of national response and leadership. govt is not the answer to every problem, but it exists for crises that affect a whole nation. no, i don't want betsy devos in charge of anything, and that's why i'm ambivalent about school opening. but i do think it would be nice of our country behaved like responsible countries, where there is a regimen that includes testing, contact tracing, an epidemiological approach to school openings that is science-based deployed across the country, with whatever funding is reasonably needed.

in my area, orange county is the recalcitrant county. they're opening their schools up. not because they have plan. because it's the republican thing to do. that's not a plan.

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Dan Empfield
aka Slowman

What about it? Why can’t the federal govt still offer aid, like it does for so many other things? Standards can and should be met, but why does it have to be a uniform federal plan of action?

Again, why are you talking about leadership here? This thread tangent is about whether the federal govt or local districts should be in charge of their plans. My position was that it shouldnt be up to the federal govt. If you think the federal leadership is so piss poor (which I agree) then me thinks you would agree with me on this!

I really dont understand why youre being so argumentative over these things on this thread. I made no comment on federal leadership or about their threat to withhold aid. Slowman said he is was talking about a federal plan, I disagreed but slowguy beat me to it, so offered my agreement. It was just about who I thought should be in charge of the plan. Not funding it and nothing to do with the threats from the white house. Just whose purview it should be under. Period. So why are you then coming at me with all this other crap just to start an argument?

That was my point regarding the senator’s comments and you thinking they were divisive. Everyone was arguing WHO he was talking about and to whom his comments were directed. Not about whether they agreed with them or not. So you bringing in the party lines and divisiveness, while probably pertinent at a deeper level, had nothing to do with what I was saying. Then it dragged me down a tangent I had not intended to go down, because we probably agree.

What gives?

I talked with a good friend of mine and fairly regular contributor to the LR this morning. And his assessment was that: my title misrepresented the statements made by Sen. Kennedy and that you and others were correct to call me for it. I went back to reading the thread and I do agree. I was wrong and I apologize for this.
Maybe I get Trump fatigue, and just saw his comments and took them as more gaslighting Trump style. Maybe I get just covid fatigue for looking at the damn data all the time at work. Either way, even though my intent was not to misrepresent what he said, I realize that I saw this with a very thick anti-conservative bias. In the future, I will try to be maybe less quick to type, and try to not post when I'm pissed at the situation we are in.
So, I do apologize, and thank the couple of you (you, yeeper for instance) who took the time to call me out on it, albeit in a fair manner, and helped me see my errors.

Wow. Have a cup of coffee and breathe...

I’m all for local authorities coming up with their own plans that make sense for their particular districts. But as Slowman says, this should be done based on science, and national guidelines could still be helpful. The CDC issued some. Then the WH said they were “too tough.” Now they don’t want CDC guidelines to be considered at all.

Further, federal funding could help local districts implement the necessary logistical changes they will be forced to make to allow safe learning, both in and out of the classroom. That is why national leadership that involves cooperation and support, not threats of defunding, is important.

bad francois. not handled well at all. your correct response to a written or spoken error is to say, "it was a joke." ;-)

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Dan Empfield
aka Slowman

As outlined in the discussion section of the paper. " Because of difficulties in conducting observational trials to investigate the infectivity of children as opposed to other age groups with SARS-CoV-2 infection, in this short study we attempt the provision of a direct measure of virus concentration from which one can extrapolate to infectivity." From a wired article. " While experts note that the precise transmission dynamics between children, or between children and adults, are “not well understood”—and indeed, some argue that the best evidence on this question is that “we do not have enough evidence”—many tend to think that the risk of contagion is diminished. Jonas F. Ludvigsson, a pediatrician and a professor of clinical epidemiology at Sweden’s Karolinska Institute, reviewed the relevant research literature as of May 11 and concluded that, while it’s “highly likely” children can transmit the virus causing Covid-19, they “seldom cause outbreaks.” The World Health Organization’s chief scientist, Soumya Swaminathan, suggested last month that “it does seem from what we know now that children are less capable of spreading” the disease, and Kristine Macartney, director of Australia's National Centre for Immunisation Research and Surveillance, noted a lack of evidence that school-aged children are superspreaders in her country. A study in Ireland found “no evidence of secondary transmission of Covid-19 from children attending school.” And Kári Stefánsson, a leading researcher in Iceland, told The New Yorker that out of some 56,000 residents who have been tested, “there are only two examples where a child infected a parent. But there are lots of examples where parents infected children.” Similar conclusions were drawn in a study of families in the Netherlands." As per the last paragraph in the article the reopening plans should be focused on adult interaction within the school. " None of this implies that Covid-19 couldn’t still spread efficiently among a school’s adults—the teachers and staff. Under any reopening plan, those who are most vulnerable to the disease should be allowed to opt out of working onsite until there is a vaccine or effective treatment. And adults who are present, when around each other, should wear masks and maintain proper social distancing. Distancing among adults may be easier to implement in schools, where teachers tend to spend their days divvied up in different rooms, than it would be in some work environments that have already reopened, such as offices, factories, and stores."

And? That statement is correct and doesn't negate what I said before. I didn't argue that children could or couldn't start an outbreak. I argued that currently there is no evidence that children do not transmit the virus.

As a matter of fact, also in the discussion is this

"The viral loads observed in the present study, combined with earlier findings of similar attack rate between children and adults (2), suggest that transmission potential in schools and kindergartens should be evaluated using the same assumptions of infectivity as for adults. There are reasons to argue against the notion of adult-like infectivity in children, such as the fact that asymptomatic children do not spread the virus by coughing, and have smaller exhaled air volume than adults. However, there are other arguments that speak in favour of transmission, such as the greater physical activity and closer social engagement of children"

Also, from the start, I've said that this notion of lesser to no infectivity was largely under review and that we needed to act as if kids transmit the disease.
At the time, it's just not known, and it's dangerous to think that kids don't shed. I for one would be glad if it were the case and they aren't infectious to adults.

If you are being held against your will and being forced to make this statement please use the word pineapples in your next post so we know to come rescue you.

---

I'm beginning to think that we are much more fucked than I thought.

No worries at all, man! We all go through it. Ive had some rough weeks where I post or say things and then have to take a deep breath and apologize. Dont thank me for calling you out. Sounds harsh. Thanks for engaging in discussions.

Its a weeeird fucking year, after a stressful 4 years.

Fair enough. We all get our blinders on occasionally. The more we can stick to the facts and analysis that's as objective as possible, the better off I think we are.

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Slowguy

(insert pithy phrase here...)

I wholeheartedly agree with that.

I wouldn't come to Florida right now if I were you...









PINEAPPLES! <-- this is a joke...obviously :-) No one forced me.

I think, in our country, the plans for this stuff are supposed to be formed and led at the State level and below, but I agree that we need better leadership from the federal government to shape those plans. The federal govt should be providing objective science based guidance, best practices, and assurances of support to the States so that the States can execute their plans.

Most other countries are not republics, made up of 50 or so (supposed to be) fairly independent States.

---

Slowguy

(insert pithy phrase here...)

Dude.

---

Suffer Well.

if you look at the response to this from western european countries there were variances in rules. germany and italy were not just states, but little kingdoms, until the mid-late 1800s and the german bundesländer, as i understand it, operates not wholly different from our federal system. i agree with you that each state should form its own response based on its own geography, demographics, census, habits, infrastruture, but i also agree with you that what germany had was a federal response. our govt, rather than a mass purchase of necessary goods (tests, masks, vents) flowing to the states, chose to pit the states against each other, driving up prices. the only area where the govt took a federal approach was in drugs, where (for example) all remdesivir is (as i understand it) owned by the fed govt and doled out on an as-needed basis. otherwise, our fed govt is actively inactive. it's inactivity is its own political statement.

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Dan Empfield
aka Slowman

For sure. I agree the federal funding is important, I dont know all the ins and outs of the strings attached there. From what I remember the aid should come regardless of who created the plan, as it does with other things.

Youre right with federal guidelines. Those should help shape local decisions. But we are all over the place there. In fact, it resembles my wife’s district alot in that the central office is telling the to create a plan based on X, Y, and Z, but then rejects the plans because XYZ changed but they didnt tell them. And then they stop communicating, its a shit show.

Im good, btw. Had my coffee. No harsh sentiments were in my posts if it seemed that way. You and I have differing opinions on some things but you challenge me to think harder and I like getting into it. Theres frustration in my posts at times, but no animation while typing. I think sometimes my cursing, caps and “!” convey emotion that isnt there. I should really work on that for discussion purposes. Bold and italics are probably better suited to highlight those things. And I just curse like a sailor on a daily basis so its more normal that it is emotional. Even when responding to Jane as much as her posting frustrates me. Im never animated or emotional, its just a forum. Seriously, Im good. The LR is one of my guilty pleasure escapes. I dont ruin those good things with emotion and it takes quite a bit to get me riled.

This actually made me lol.

Appreciate the post. And the Trump fatigue.

Just know that some of us called you on some portions of your comments because we value the expertise you bring to this forum in certain areas and it was concerning to see you take positions that might damage your overall "status" here.

Well, that's probably not the last time I'm on the wrong side of the fence. I'm fully aware I get hot-headed on the forum. But I'm willing to be corrected. You just have to insist a lot. That's my stubborn Aussie side. As windy pointed out, the French side capitulates fast.

we all get there. Especially easy to happen here.

and you're not "wrong" with most of this. Just over the top in a few areas

Right!? Its comical but also scary. The younger kids may struggle with keeping masks on. Its a tactile thing on your face no less. I can see kids struggling to keep solid boundaries. I feel for them.

While we’re on the topic of Windy, can we all agree that when you told him to kiss your ass, you missed a big opportunity to tell him to “French kiss” your ass? Dont mess that up again.

He prob is banned. Wonder for how long.

That's a fair point. Although that answer was meant to be tongue in cheek given the article I posted. The follow up answer to him, not so and so I deleted it.
I like windy when he PMs me a lot more than when he answers on the forum.

i activated his account this morning, but he probably hasn't tried it yet. instead i suspect he's reading from his stealth account. which is another violation (multiple accounts). however as with trump at a certain point you just learn to overlook the infractions that would apply to others.

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Dan Empfield
aka Slowman

It is interesting to observe that the people who don’t understand why Windy got sent to the cooler are the same who cannot grasp the significance of leading with “these are people whose hate America.”

The senator does not actually want to have a debate about schools opening. In two weeks the only thing his base will remember is that people who don’t want to open schools hate America.

And in two weeks we won’t remember what this argument was about, but we will remember that Windy made a point to call out Francois’ ethnicity as a point of weakness.

You are a kind god. If I could figure out gifs Id post the Waynes World “we’re not worthy!”

This was basically the point I’ve been trying to make, and why I didn’t understand Yeeper’s willingness to “give him the benefit of the doubt.” There is no doubt he was just gaslighting, and I simply don’t understand how people shrug that behavior from our public officials off.

We’re not talking about a squabble over a minor state budget line item. We’re talking about keeping our kids and teachers safe amid a global pandemic. There should be no place for gaslighting, and no tolerance for elected officials who do.

Which is why I think Francois was forced to make a hostage video.

---

I'm beginning to think that we are much more fucked than I thought.

That took some testicular fortitude Francois. Not many have the ability to apologize here. +10 man points for you.....much respect.

I didnt question why Windy got a timeout. That much was clear from the start.

Also, I dont believe Windy saw anythung as s “point of weakness.” He has his sense of humor, crude or not. Maybe Im wrong, who knows.

And apparently we disagree on the senator’s quote about what he wants. It is not uncommon for politicians to seize the moment to take up a news cycle, if thats what happened as you and Kay claim. Im just nit as outraged by that or what/how It was said.

Or maybe like Biden and you forget you already have an account after your fifth nap

Your line, “I am not as outraged...” is bullshit. You’ve commented over and over in this thread. You’re position is that this person whose primary job functions include communicating with the public chose to lead with “these people hate america,” because he wants to have an honest debate about opening schools.

And you are confused about why WW was banned. Your misuse of the word “crude,” aside, it wasnt because Dan doesn’t appreciate his sense of humor. It is because letting shit like that slide is exactly why you don’t blink when a senator insinuates that people who don’t want schools open hate America. That has become so easy for you that it goes right past you.

And you are confused about why WW was banned.//

I just think it is funny that you all are talking about him while he is back in the room.

Windy and I PMed today. He said sorry. I’m sure he read my apologies. I said sorry too. He also said I can tell him to go fuck off anytime and that he’s thick skinned and I told him well I’m hot headed.
So it may happen again. But I’ll still try to double check my biases.

And I hope this fucking year improves. Especially with my daughter arriving in the world in just two months.

letting shit like this slide? are you kidding? everyone on this forum whose not as deranged as blep and kay are "ballwashers" you think for one second dan would have let that stand if every thread had obama ballwasher from 2008 on?

---

Suffer Well.

You don’t have to make that weird you know.

Amen to that. So many people on here will plant their sword in the ground and die on it to defend what they said/their argument. I don't read every posts on here but I'm not sure I've ever seen someone directly come out and apologize like this. I have huge respect for your move sir!!!

And Slowman, thank you for bringing WW back. I'm very glad our Canadian friends don't mind the jabs because the banter back and forth is some of the most entertaining in the LR

My man, thats amazing, congrats!! Your year will automatically be better because of her. Keep her away from the lavender room for the love of god.

With a two year old a new born, work and some training in between it’s safe to say I’ll be gone for a little while.

Oh my god, let this go, man. Seriously, is reading comprehension evaporating into thin air? I was not as outraged at his quote. I dont get outraged by things, especially not things on this forum. I kept commenting to argue against a position that was outraged by it, which by the way the OP has basically recanted. Holy crap I feel like Im in the twilight zone.

My position was that he wasnt giving the middle finger to the teachers. Which, again, has been recanted. Nowhere did I give a position on why he chose to lead with anything. I was defending the lack of a “fuck you” claim all thread long. Now in the tangent that I decided to entertain, I mentioned something that Slowguy introduced early on in the the thread, which is that the senator did say he would entertain honest rationale for closure. Now whether you fucking believe him or not is not my problem. He said it. You have to disprove it. Its your issue, not mine. I wasnt holding a position that he chose any words for a reason, other than to identify a group that may or may not exist. You guys are impossible on this.

And what the hell are you talking about with my thoughts on Windy’s ban? Youre getting too wrapped up in this. I apparently struck a nerve somehow, Im sorry man. But you just said yourself “letting shit like that slide...” aaand thats my point. Dan lets all kinda of shit slide, including all of the Canada talk. So this one made me scratch my head. Me politely asking Dan what that was all aboot is between me and Dan. So take a chill pill. Buy me a thesaurus if you dont like how I used the word crude. I forgot we are graded on grammar here.

Seriously, let this go. Im tired of going in circles. And Francois just announced he’s having a baby (well I just found out anyway). So let this thread go, please.

Just to be clear, this is what aj and I are saying. You defended Kennedy’s desire for rational discourse. You believe that he was being an honest broker. We are saying that his opening that “these people hate America,” shows he’s not being an honest broker, just as he’s not when he’s accusing many of those concerned about the health of kids and staff as only doing so for political gain. Also not being an honest broker. So yes, there’s your evidence that disproves he was being honest. And that’s the point. You should demand better of our elected officials. And again, you weren’t just being ambivalent to this issue (as you suggest above), you were defending him.

Your quotes:

“...its pretty clear to see he supports decisions made in good faith, while at the same time telling people to kiss his ass if the decisions are made unethically.“

“What is wrong with [Kennedy] wanting people to be grounded and use sound logic?”

“Yes, I believe he genuinely thinks those people should kiss his ass and instead he wants to have legitimate discussions on legitimate pros and cons.”


At this time in our country we all need to be holding our elected officials, of both parties, to a higher standard. That’s the bottom line.

Oh my god guys, let this gooo. If anyone is keeping record here, I would like to see this thread fall off the front page. Cmon, we could have ended with the baby thing.

Kay, the senator said “I think some are liking the chaos because they thing it gives them a political advantage.”

My entire argument has been that those people actually do exist and thats who he was referring to.

And are you saying that because he called some people out that hes not living up to the higher standard? Because you dont think they exist?

Yes, you’re right. They’re everywhere and they hate America.

McCarthyism at its best.

FFs, now you sound like Francois’s OP. Nobody in this thread ever said anything like that.

WTF is wrong with people in this thread?

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Slowguy

(insert pithy phrase here...)

https://m.youtube.com/...amp;feature=youtu.be


Im leaving this here and then Im done with this thread. You guys tried calling me out because I wanted to give him the benefit of the doubt.

“I think some are liking the chaos because they think it gives them a political advantage.”

That ad is from a leading “democratic think tank” and literally (literally!) ends with “chaos has a price” after a woman recounts her story of losing her job. I found this in the Washington Post, Kay. Yet you take issue with what I said about giving him the benefit of the doubt?!

You guys should take a lesson from Francois. Youre the only ones still grasping at straws here in this thread. I give you ad add campaign with almost 90k followers, from a large left-leaning publication, which ends with “chaos has a price.”

But you’re right, no democrats are using the pandemic for political gain. Noone is using Trump’s chaos for political gain. And even if they did they wouldnt use those words publicly hahaha...oh wait...

I dont even want to stick around and see how you can ignore this ad or find more straws to grasp at. Although maybe ajthomas will take issue with the fact that I just ended a sentence with a preposition. How crude of me.

Seriously, Im done with this.

Well Yeeper just did in the post below yours. But mainly I was referring to Kennedy’s comment that “these people hate America.”

I don’t see how those people are trying to perpetuate the situation intentionally for political gain. I think they’re saying that the chaos this country is in is bad and we need new leadership. Pretty sure that doesn’t mean they hate America. Try again.

No, Yeeper did not say that people who hate America are everywhere. Do you not know the meanings of the words you type, or do you just n to care if you're telling the truth?

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Slowguy

(insert pithy phrase here...)

First, I was being obviously hyperbolic in my sarcasm, which is obvious. So don’t get all preachy about truth. Second, Yeeper refers to 90k followers of that ad campaign as evidence of all the people who, according to him, want to intentionally create chaos in our society for political gain, so that’s quite a lot.

Look, my point has always been that Kennedy was not being an honest broker in the debate. And my point to Yeeper was that we should all hold our politicians to a higher standard, especially in this incredibly difficult time for our country. But he didn’t want to call out Kennedy, by instead kept saying we should give him the benefit of the doubt, and also he kept challenging me in my assertion that, if anything, there is only a tiny fringe minority who might want schools closed (when they could otherwise be open) for the sole purpose of political gain. Personally I’ve not seen any evidence of that.

From the party of honest brokers...

https://www.cnn.com/...y-schools/index.html