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Re: LA Senator to Folks who support Teachers and their safety: they can kiss my ass [Francois] [ In reply to ]
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Francois wrote:
It’s been pretty clear that children are less affected. I had written that in an other thread. As one of the docs pointed out it’s pretty much reversed from the flu. There is at least one systematic review showing this.

With that said, and although I really hope they are correct re children to adult transmission, the literature doesn’t support it at this stage. Many kids seem to remain asymptomatic but with still high enough viral loads.

I also haven’t said I was against reopening schools. I just said we need a real plan. The AAP statement isn’t a plan. It just says what we need to achieve. Not how. They also backpedaled a bit because it’s a medical organization, not a public health one.

i'm ambivalent about opening schools. i think i'm about 60 percent in favor of it. i'm just not sure. the case for reopening is strong. parents get to go to work. kids get to learn, and to eat. they don't get as sick. they *may* not transmit the disease back home.

but you're right. where's the plan? where's the best practice list for how to deal with kids going to school? that's the problem with opening schools. no strategy.

Dan Empfield
aka Slowman
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Re: LA Senator to Folks who support Teachers and their safety: they can kiss my ass [Francois] [ In reply to ]
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Actually the European data completely support it and you have flipped the burden of proof 180 degrees for the tangible severe negative consequences to your halting uncertainty.
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Re: LA Senator to Folks who support Teachers and their safety: they can kiss my ass [Yeeper] [ In reply to ]
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We don’t know of long term effects yet. For kids anyway. Right now, for most children, the symptoms are less than a flu for most kids. Some kids do develop a systemic inflammatory response however. But mortality rate remains way lower than a flu.
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Re: LA Senator to Teachers: they can kiss my ass [Yeeper] [ In reply to ]
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Yeeper wrote:
Kay Serrar wrote:
No I’m not arguing absolutes. You can, I’m sure, find some fringe whacko who thinks schools staying shut is a good thing because it will hurt Trump. But YOU should not be that person who thinks this is in ANY way a mainstream opinion. It is ENTIRELY a made up issue by Trump and his loyalists to try to paint people who are genuinely concerned with the safety of kids and staff, as people playing politics with kids. All the while, all the while, it is THEY who are not just playing politics with kids and teachers, but are willing to do so by risking their lives. You are on the wrong side of this, and you yourself admit Kennedy was being divisive. This is not an issue upon which politicians should be sewing divisiveness. You of all people should feel this way if you have teachers in your family. Don’t try to win an internet argument on some technicality while ignoring the bigger issues glaring you in the face.


Kay, you said there are no people that hold that view and therefore his comment was nothing but a ploy.

I dont for one second believe this is a mainstream opinion. And Im happy about that. But I do believe there are people who buy into the politics enough to make those decisions. Jesus, look no farther than a few months ago where politicians gave a legitimate big “fuck you” to us small business owners with their relief loopholes. They ensured their buddies and interest groups got paid while thousands of small businesses were stepped on. They play with out livelihoods non-stop.

I dont think I admitted his intentional divisiveness for the sake of being divisive. If I did ok, but I genuinely dont remember typing that because I dont think its relevant here.

Im not on the wrong side of anything. Furthermore, where do you come off saying or assuming what side I am on on this matter? I said that I see the pros and cons of both options, and that this is something my family and I talk about regularly. What fucking side am I on?

And IF I did say what side I was on, and it happened to be the contrary to what you believe, what business do you have saying Im on the wrong side? Who made one opinion the right one, and the other opinion the wrong one?if I had legitimate reasons to support my choice, who the hell are you to say Im on the wrong side of a pancake?

You said his divisiveness was a red herring. That’s admitting he was being divisive. Period.

And I said you should not want politicians stoking divisions intentionally on this issue. That’s the side I would presume you should be on.

So you should be calling Kennedy out on THAT, IMO. But feel free to focus instead on whether or not I can prove a negative. If you’d rather play that game, prove to me anyone does want schools closed ONLY for political reasons.

Either way, you do you.

For me the bigger issue is politicians diminishing the issue of the safety of kids, teachers and other school staff, for their political benefit.
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Re: LA Senator to Folks who support Teachers and their safety: they can kiss my ass [Slowman] [ In reply to ]
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Strategies vary from district to district. My wife and her team have been working on plans based on the strategies they are given, for over a month. Now what the superintendent does with that information is a different story. Im certainly not happy with the leadership and actions of someone we pay a quarter of a million dollars a year for.

But rest assured, districts are putting plans together. We have tentative plans for all grade levels and transportation already over here. Is it feasible? No clue. But there are plans, wheels are and have been in motion. Not for as long as I would have liked though. Seems like an after thought. And thats one thing that scares me.
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Re: LA Senator to Folks who support Teachers and their safety: they can kiss my ass [NormM] [ In reply to ]
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That’s simply not true. There is one study in France which is observational showing one child not infecting anyone in a small cluster of schools. This is indeed unusual and is one of the studies that led to checking whether there is a spread from children to adults.
There is also one study in Australia in NSW showing similar results but where they didn’t control for social distancing and other mechanisms in place and it’s clearly identified as a weakness by the lead author.

But then there is this https://zoonosen.charite.de/...d-by-patient-age.pdf

Which basically says there is no reason kids would spread it less. One study in Hong Kong where they also showed a less spread from kids posited that it’s most likely because most schools have been closed.

Mechanistically there is no reason children wouldn’t spread it. There are reasons though why they’d get less impacted.

Finally I didn’t change the burden of proof. I just said we need a plan for reopening schools. I have said from the very start that there are also very good reasons to reopen and I highlighted such reasons.
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Re: LA Senator to Folks who support Teachers and their safety: they can kiss my ass [Francois] [ In reply to ]
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The Palm Beach health department director said they are seeing real damage to the lungs even in mild cases. I haven't seen your information regarding that, yet. You have given good information regarding the transmissions, but not symptoms that I saw. That was what sparked my question when you said its not affecting children. Are they finding respiratory damage?
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Re: LA Senator to Teachers: they can kiss my ass [Kay Serrar] [ In reply to ]
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Kay Serrar wrote:

You said his divisiveness was a red herring. That’s admitting he was being divisive. Period.

And I said you should not want politicians stoking divisions intentionally on this issue. That’s the side I would presume you should be on.

So you should be calling Kennedy out on THAT, IMO. But feel free to focus instead on whether or not I can prove a negative. If you’d rather play that game, prove to me anyone does want schools closed ONLY for political reasons.

Either way, you do you.

For me the bigger issue is politicians diminishing the issue of the safety of kids, teachers and other school staff, for their political benefit.

I was referring to the divisiveness that you kept bringing up; I said that in the same sentence. The red herring was any other variable you were bringing into the argument that had nothing to do with his not-so-friendly offer to some specific group he was referencing. If it wasn't clear, I apologize.

I can't give specific names because I'm not saying they definitively exist. I was saying it was silly to claim none of them existed. I was giving him something plausible in his quote. Thats why this whole thread started. Regardless of how many card carrying members exist in the group of people he referenced, he still specifically referenced them. I don't know why we're so off track here. I feel like you're arguing with me just to argue.

I agree with you regarding the bigger picture.Which is also why I'm not sure why we're still arguing. Lets just be done with this.

Hope you're well down in Jersey. Wish we could get away down there, but not in the cards this year I don't think. Not that I think you're by the beaches.
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Re: LA Senator to Folks who support Teachers and their safety: they can kiss my ass [Yeeper] [ In reply to ]
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I haven’t seen data at that level yet for peds patients. Only cases, severity, hospitalization and mortality in our system.

I’ve seen a couple of papers discussing cases of children with lung damage but they were believed to have some systemic inflammatory response or cytokine storm in these case studies. I haven’t seen reports of widespread cases as these in pediatrics unlike with adults.

Here https://www.frontiersin.org/...fped.2020.00206/full
Provides some explanation as to why children seem less affected.
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Re: LA Senator to Folks who support Teachers and their safety: they can kiss my ass [Francois] [ In reply to ]
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Francois wrote:
I haven’t seen data at that level yet for peds patients. Only cases, severity, hospitalization and mortality in our system.

I’ve seen a couple of papers discussing cases of children with lung damage but they were believed to have some systemic inflammatory response or cytokine storm in these case studies. I haven’t seen reports of widespread cases as these in pediatrics unlike with adults.

Here https://www.frontiersin.org/...fped.2020.00206/full
Provides some explanation as to why children seem less affected.

Much appreciated!
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Re: LA Senator to Folks who support Teachers and their safety: they can kiss my ass [Yeeper] [ In reply to ]
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Yeeper wrote:
Strategies vary from district to district. My wife and her team have been working on plans based on the strategies they are given, for over a month. Now what the superintendent does with that information is a different story. Im certainly not happy with the leadership and actions of someone we pay a quarter of a million dollars a year for.

But rest assured, districts are putting plans together. We have tentative plans for all grade levels and transportation already over here. Is it feasible? No clue. But there are plans, wheels are and have been in motion. Not for as long as I would have liked though. Seems like an after thought. And thats one thing that scares me.

My reference was to a national plan.

Dan Empfield
aka Slowman
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Re: LA Senator to Folks who support Teachers and their safety: they can kiss my ass [Slowman] [ In reply to ]
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Slowman wrote:
Yeeper wrote:
Strategies vary from district to district. My wife and her team have been working on plans based on the strategies they are given, for over a month. Now what the superintendent does with that information is a different story. Im certainly not happy with the leadership and actions of someone we pay a quarter of a million dollars a year for.

But rest assured, districts are putting plans together. We have tentative plans for all grade levels and transportation already over here. Is it feasible? No clue. But there are plans, wheels are and have been in motion. Not for as long as I would have liked though. Seems like an after thought. And thats one thing that scares me.


My reference was to a national plan.

Is there a particular reason why a national plan is necessary or would even be beneficial? My impression is that we tend to leave most management of school to State and local agencies and officials. I’m not sure that having the federal government lay out a plan that all school districts would have to adhere to would actually serve the students or faculty. We know that every school district, and even every school, have their own specific circumstances, student loads, surrounding community, etc.

Moreover, do we really want a plan from Sec Devos?

Slowguy

(insert pithy phrase here...)
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Re: LA Senator to Folks who support Teachers and their safety: they can kiss my ass [slowguy] [ In reply to ]
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slowguy wrote:
Slowman wrote:
Yeeper wrote:
Strategies vary from district to district. My wife and her team have been working on plans based on the strategies they are given, for over a month. Now what the superintendent does with that information is a different story. Im certainly not happy with the leadership and actions of someone we pay a quarter of a million dollars a year for.

But rest assured, districts are putting plans together. We have tentative plans for all grade levels and transportation already over here. Is it feasible? No clue. But there are plans, wheels are and have been in motion. Not for as long as I would have liked though. Seems like an after thought. And thats one thing that scares me.


My reference was to a national plan.

Is there a particular reason why a national plan is necessary or would even be beneficial? My impression is that we tend to leave most management of school to State and local agencies and officials. I’m not sure that having the federal government lay out a plan that all school districts would have to adhere to would actually serve the students or faculty. We know that every school district, and even every school, have their own specific circumstances, student loads, surrounding community, etc.

Moreover, do we really want a plan from Sec Devos?

What ^ he said.
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Re: LA Senator to Folks who support Teachers and their safety: they can kiss my ass [Yeeper] [ In reply to ]
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What about federal funding for the safety measures needed to help keep students and staff safer? Instead the government has only threatened to withhold funding for those districts that don’t reopen. Is that leadership?
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Re: LA Senator to Folks who support Teachers and their safety: they can kiss my ass [Yeeper] [ In reply to ]
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Yeeper wrote:
Strategies vary from district to district. My wife and her team have been working on plans based on the strategies they are given, for over a month. Now what the superintendent does with that information is a different story. Im certainly not happy with the leadership and actions of someone we pay a quarter of a million dollars a year for.

But rest assured, districts are putting plans together. We have tentative plans for all grade levels and transportation already over here. Is it feasible? No clue. But there are plans, wheels are and have been in motion. Not for as long as I would have liked though. Seems like an after thought. And thats one thing that scares me.

My wife's school has a plan but there are so many holes that it is a joke. It comes down to wear a mask and use common sense. My wife teaches 2nd grade, when does common sense come into play?

_____
TEAM HD
Each day is what you make of it so make it the best day possible.
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Re: LA Senator to Teachers: they can kiss my ass [Francois] [ In reply to ]
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Francois wrote:
Since I didn't interpret his comments the way you did, you just can't argue that. His statements are a F off to teachers. Period.

I saw if that way as well, until you were called out and the entire statement was posted. So either your comprehension is terrible or you purposely misled this entire thread and expected everyone to get on board and pretty soon your wrong summary could go viral.

Kudos to those that called you on it. We have enough misinformation flying around and name calling just makes you look a lot like Trump.
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Re: LA Senator to Folks who support Teachers and their safety: they can kiss my ass [slowguy] [ In reply to ]
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slowguy wrote:
Slowman wrote:
Yeeper wrote:
Strategies vary from district to district. My wife and her team have been working on plans based on the strategies they are given, for over a month. Now what the superintendent does with that information is a different story. Im certainly not happy with the leadership and actions of someone we pay a quarter of a million dollars a year for.

But rest assured, districts are putting plans together. We have tentative plans for all grade levels and transportation already over here. Is it feasible? No clue. But there are plans, wheels are and have been in motion. Not for as long as I would have liked though. Seems like an after thought. And thats one thing that scares me.


My reference was to a national plan.


Is there a particular reason why a national plan is necessary or would even be beneficial? My impression is that we tend to leave most management of school to State and local agencies and officials. I’m not sure that having the federal government lay out a plan that all school districts would have to adhere to would actually serve the students or faculty. We know that every school district, and even every school, have their own specific circumstances, student loads, surrounding community, etc.

Moreover, do we really want a plan from Sec Devos?

i am not a guy who thinks a check is the answer to everything. however, i do think the real tragedy of this pandemic in this country is the lack of national response and leadership. govt is not the answer to every problem, but it exists for crises that affect a whole nation. no, i don't want betsy devos in charge of anything, and that's why i'm ambivalent about school opening. but i do think it would be nice of our country behaved like responsible countries, where there is a regimen that includes testing, contact tracing, an epidemiological approach to school openings that is science-based deployed across the country, with whatever funding is reasonably needed.

in my area, orange county is the recalcitrant county. they're opening their schools up. not because they have plan. because it's the republican thing to do. that's not a plan.

Dan Empfield
aka Slowman
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Re: LA Senator to Folks who support Teachers and their safety: they can kiss my ass [Kay Serrar] [ In reply to ]
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Kay Serrar wrote:
What about federal funding for the safety measures needed to help keep students and staff safer? Instead the government has only threatened to withhold funding for those districts that don’t reopen. Is that leadership?

What about it? Why can’t the federal govt still offer aid, like it does for so many other things? Standards can and should be met, but why does it have to be a uniform federal plan of action?

Again, why are you talking about leadership here? This thread tangent is about whether the federal govt or local districts should be in charge of their plans. My position was that it shouldnt be up to the federal govt. If you think the federal leadership is so piss poor (which I agree) then me thinks you would agree with me on this!

I really dont understand why youre being so argumentative over these things on this thread. I made no comment on federal leadership or about their threat to withhold aid. Slowman said he is was talking about a federal plan, I disagreed but slowguy beat me to it, so offered my agreement. It was just about who I thought should be in charge of the plan. Not funding it and nothing to do with the threats from the white house. Just whose purview it should be under. Period. So why are you then coming at me with all this other crap just to start an argument?

That was my point regarding the senator’s comments and you thinking they were divisive. Everyone was arguing WHO he was talking about and to whom his comments were directed. Not about whether they agreed with them or not. So you bringing in the party lines and divisiveness, while probably pertinent at a deeper level, had nothing to do with what I was saying. Then it dragged me down a tangent I had not intended to go down, because we probably agree.

What gives?
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Re: LA Senator to Teachers: they can kiss my ass [slowguy] [ In reply to ]
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I talked with a good friend of mine and fairly regular contributor to the LR this morning. And his assessment was that: my title misrepresented the statements made by Sen. Kennedy and that you and others were correct to call me for it. I went back to reading the thread and I do agree. I was wrong and I apologize for this.
Maybe I get Trump fatigue, and just saw his comments and took them as more gaslighting Trump style. Maybe I get just covid fatigue for looking at the damn data all the time at work. Either way, even though my intent was not to misrepresent what he said, I realize that I saw this with a very thick anti-conservative bias. In the future, I will try to be maybe less quick to type, and try to not post when I'm pissed at the situation we are in.
So, I do apologize, and thank the couple of you (you, yeeper for instance) who took the time to call me out on it, albeit in a fair manner, and helped me see my errors.
Last edited by: Francois: Jul 16, 20 6:35
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Re: LA Senator to Folks who support Teachers and their safety: they can kiss my ass [Yeeper] [ In reply to ]
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Wow. Have a cup of coffee and breathe...

I’m all for local authorities coming up with their own plans that make sense for their particular districts. But as Slowman says, this should be done based on science, and national guidelines could still be helpful. The CDC issued some. Then the WH said they were “too tough.” Now they don’t want CDC guidelines to be considered at all.

Further, federal funding could help local districts implement the necessary logistical changes they will be forced to make to allow safe learning, both in and out of the classroom. That is why national leadership that involves cooperation and support, not threats of defunding, is important.
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Re: LA Senator to Teachers: they can kiss my ass [Francois] [ In reply to ]
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Francois wrote:
I talked with a good friend of mine and fairly regular contributor to the LR this morning. And his assessment was that: my title misrepresented the statements made by Sen. Kennedy and that you and others were correct to call me for it. I went back to reading the thread and I do agree. I was wrong and I apologize for this.
Maybe I get Trump fatigue, and just saw his comments and took them as more gaslighting Trump style. Maybe I get just covid fatigue for looking at the damn data all the time at work. Either way, even though my intent was not to misrepresent what he said, I realize that I saw this with a very thick anti-conservative bias. In the future, I will try to be maybe less quick to type, and try to not post when I'm pissed at the situation we are in.
So, I do apologize, and thank for couple of you (you, yeeper for instance) who took the time to call me out on it, albeit in a fair manner, and helped me see my errors.


bad francois. not handled well at all. your correct response to a written or spoken error is to say, "it was a joke." ;-)

Dan Empfield
aka Slowman
Last edited by: Slowman: Jul 16, 20 8:22
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Re: LA Senator to Folks who support Teachers and their safety: they can kiss my ass [Francois] [ In reply to ]
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Francois wrote:
That’s simply not true. There is one study in France which is observational showing one child not infecting anyone in a small cluster of schools. This is indeed unusual and is one of the studies that led to checking whether there is a spread from children to adults.
There is also one study in Australia in NSW showing similar results but where they didn’t control for social distancing and other mechanisms in place and it’s clearly identified as a weakness by the lead author.

But then there is this https://zoonosen.charite.de/...d-by-patient-age.pdf

Which basically says there is no reason kids would spread it less. One study in Hong Kong where they also showed a less spread from kids posited that it’s most likely because most schools have been closed.

Mechanistically there is no reason children wouldn’t spread it. There are reasons though why they’d get less impacted.

Finally I didn’t change the burden of proof. I just said we need a plan for reopening schools. I have said from the very start that there are also very good reasons to reopen and I highlighted such reasons.

As outlined in the discussion section of the paper. " Because of difficulties in conducting observational trials to investigate the infectivity of children as opposed to other age groups with SARS-CoV-2 infection, in this short study we attempt the provision of a direct measure of virus concentration from which one can extrapolate to infectivity." From a wired article. " While experts note that the precise transmission dynamics between children, or between children and adults, are “not well understood”—and indeed, some argue that the best evidence on this question is that “we do not have enough evidence”—many tend to think that the risk of contagion is diminished. Jonas F. Ludvigsson, a pediatrician and a professor of clinical epidemiology at Sweden’s Karolinska Institute, reviewed the relevant research literature as of May 11 and concluded that, while it’s “highly likely” children can transmit the virus causing Covid-19, they “seldom cause outbreaks.” The World Health Organization’s chief scientist, Soumya Swaminathan, suggested last month that “it does seem from what we know now that children are less capable of spreading” the disease, and Kristine Macartney, director of Australia's National Centre for Immunisation Research and Surveillance, noted a lack of evidence that school-aged children are superspreaders in her country. A study in Ireland found “no evidence of secondary transmission of Covid-19 from children attending school.” And Kári Stefánsson, a leading researcher in Iceland, told The New Yorker that out of some 56,000 residents who have been tested, “there are only two examples where a child infected a parent. But there are lots of examples where parents infected children.” Similar conclusions were drawn in a study of families in the Netherlands." As per the last paragraph in the article the reopening plans should be focused on adult interaction within the school. " None of this implies that Covid-19 couldn’t still spread efficiently among a school’s adults—the teachers and staff. Under any reopening plan, those who are most vulnerable to the disease should be allowed to opt out of working onsite until there is a vaccine or effective treatment. And adults who are present, when around each other, should wear masks and maintain proper social distancing. Distancing among adults may be easier to implement in schools, where teachers tend to spend their days divvied up in different rooms, than it would be in some work environments that have already reopened, such as offices, factories, and stores."
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Re: LA Senator to Folks who support Teachers and their safety: they can kiss my ass [NormM] [ In reply to ]
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And? That statement is correct and doesn't negate what I said before. I didn't argue that children could or couldn't start an outbreak. I argued that currently there is no evidence that children do not transmit the virus.

As a matter of fact, also in the discussion is this

"The viral loads observed in the present study, combined with earlier findings of similar attack rate between children and adults (2), suggest that transmission potential in schools and kindergartens should be evaluated using the same assumptions of infectivity as for adults. There are reasons to argue against the notion of adult-like infectivity in children, such as the fact that asymptomatic children do not spread the virus by coughing, and have smaller exhaled air volume than adults. However, there are other arguments that speak in favour of transmission, such as the greater physical activity and closer social engagement of children"

Also, from the start, I've said that this notion of lesser to no infectivity was largely under review and that we needed to act as if kids transmit the disease.
At the time, it's just not known, and it's dangerous to think that kids don't shed. I for one would be glad if it were the case and they aren't infectious to adults.
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Re: LA Senator to Teachers: they can kiss my ass [Francois] [ In reply to ]
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If you are being held against your will and being forced to make this statement please use the word pineapples in your next post so we know to come rescue you.

I'm beginning to think that we are much more fucked than I thought.
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Re: LA Senator to Teachers: they can kiss my ass [Francois] [ In reply to ]
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Francois wrote:
I talked with a good friend of mine and fairly regular contributor to the LR this morning. And his assessment was that: my title misrepresented the statements made by Sen. Kennedy and that you and others were correct to call me for it. I went back to reading the thread and I do agree. I was wrong and I apologize for this.
Maybe I get Trump fatigue, and just saw his comments and took them as more gaslighting Trump style. Maybe I get just covid fatigue for looking at the damn data all the time at work. Either way, even though my intent was not to misrepresent what he said, I realize that I saw this with a very thick anti-conservative bias. In the future, I will try to be maybe less quick to type, and try to not post when I'm pissed at the situation we are in.
So, I do apologize, and thank the couple of you (you, yeeper for instance) who took the time to call me out on it, albeit in a fair manner, and helped me see my errors.

No worries at all, man! We all go through it. Ive had some rough weeks where I post or say things and then have to take a deep breath and apologize. Dont thank me for calling you out. Sounds harsh. Thanks for engaging in discussions.

Its a weeeird fucking year, after a stressful 4 years.
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