yup, she sums it up pretty good - but it's so simple many won't accept the message ;)

If you can't float & you have to kick to stay on top of the body, the pull is less effective. For that reason alone, I think TI sets a good foundation for teaching the non-swimmer how to use their body position to float.

I read this book nearly two years ago when it came out. Not a fish myself, but having gone through the whole TI-thing myself (great for beginners, not so great after that imo), I agree with everything she says.

I did feel it was a 'one-trick' pony book, being all about the EVF. I didn't feel I really needed to buy the whole book to get the msg. The key things in the book that I feel sum up the entire book:
- 80% of speed comes from your pull and its power (assuming you've solved major drag issues). I found this to def be true - I can let my legs drag a bit in the water, kick errantly, even fishtail myself to slow myself down, but I'll still be very close to my normal swim time; for sure, I'm not losing 80% of speed from all that lack of hydrodynamics.
- The EVF is by far the most powerful and hydrodynamic position in the water that every single elite freestyle swimmer uses. It's also very non-natural and has to be worked on.
- She very carefully goes through the stages of the pull, and while the illustrations are good, it honestly it didn't help me improve my EVF significantly. If you watch a video on youtube of Sun Yang, you will see in real time what a near-perfect EVF is, which is more instructive than looking at pictures in a book.


I'm far from a good EVF, but I will add a bit of what I've learned in getting better at it - I honestly believe most beginners don't have the arm muscular endurance to do a proper EVF for more than trivial distances. I just got a Vasa swim trainer, which really encourages true EVF and it was shocking at how weak my EVF pull power was. Like useless after a mere 2 minutes of pulling on a Vasa (I'm not even a raw beginner - I swim a very middling MOP 1:35/100yd pace for 1500 in the pool.) If that EVF was tough for me at 1:35/100, you can imagine how impossible it would be for a beginner at 2:00+/100 - I honestly think it's near impossible for them.Furthermore, if you're so weak you can't do a good EVF in the pool, you learn to swim without an optimal EVF as a beginner and it makes it even harder to gain the correct muscular endurance. Taormina doesn't make this point in the book, but it's something that seems to becoming very clear to me after working with the Vasa and seeing how terrible my swim pull power was in the EVF position.

I guess that's my biggest critique of the book - she makes the EVF sound a lot more like a pure technique issue, but I felt she never really emphasized how important the muscular endurance was to even being able to do it. I actually feel it's much, much more of a muscular endurance issue than a technique issue for beginners, who I'll bet most of whom wouldn't even last 2 minutes on a Vasa/powermeter with good EVF technique, similar to myself.

I didn't buy the book myself, just read it in the bookstore. I think she does talk some about the need for muscular power/endurance though and she has several pages on using the "Halo trainer" and the stretch cords to develop this muscular endurance. I don't think she's saying that EVF is "all technique" at all because she emphasizes the use of dry-land training. I'm surprised she did not have your VASA trainer in that section but maybe she just didn't have easy access to one. It could be the VASA will completely change your swimming life:)

Also, regarding most people not having the power/endurance to hold EVF for very long, I see that all the time in the pool w/o even looking, e.g. I notice the dropped elbows or the too straight-armed/too deep pulls every day, just because I can't help but notice at other people's form.

When I first started swimming competitively, we had no dry-land training at all but rather we just swam lots of fast 50s, 100s, and maybe 2 x 200 per practice on long rest, as in 3 to 8 min between each swim. Prob swam a total of maybe 1500 yds at the most. We went off the blocks on every swim and every swim was supposed to be as fast as you could go. Dropped about 20 sec off my 100 free in the first 6 months, and 15 in the 2nd 6 months. That's how I developed EVF, lots of hard swims:)

---

"Anyone can be who they want to be IF they have the HUNGER and the DRIVE."

Man, if dropping 20sec/100 off my free were as easy for me as swimming all-out 50s-200s with ample rest in between, I'd be a FFOP swimmer by now. Alas, I've tried that, maybe not as hard as you did while on competitive swim team, but it didn't get me anywhere near the results you got!

Well, I had a lot of excellent role models and I recall picking up the flip turn just by imitating other guys/girls' turns. Also, my breaststroke kick had a little scissor in it, so this girl who was a good breaststroker showed me how to do it. I seemed to absorb most of it just by osmosis though, i.e. when you're surrounded by good swimmers who are pretty much all swimming with good to great form, you just subconsciously start trying to swim that way yourself, and pretty soon you are.

I can "feel your pain" though as it relates to kicking, as I've worked very hard on my kick over the past 5 yrs or so, but am still slow compared to the "natural kickers". As Sheila T points out, one's potential to be a strong kicker is largely determined by ankle flexibility and, while mine has improved over the last 5 yrs, still they are not like the fast kickers ankles. Oh well, I still have my pull:)

The poster known as klehner is an adult-onset swimmer with zero kick but he grabbed onto the pull big-time and got down to 51.X for the 100 yd free, so he's a real role model for you.

---

"Anyone can be who they want to be IF they have the HUNGER and the DRIVE."

Thanks for posting... You just saved me a ton of wasted time this New Year - I was going to start working on my kick. I'll just start working on pull, EVF, and perhaps some body roll. (I got to cut another 8-9 mins off my 5k time... And get me down to 1h 03m ish)....

---

________________________________________________
Proud member of FISHTWITCH: beating you to T1 for over a decade, and working on beating you to T2...

…then you are doing it wrong. It is never necessary to kick to maintain body position.

---

----------------------------------
"Go yell at an M&M"

What the hell is EVF?

Early Vertical Forearm: starting the pull such that your forearm is as close to pointing straight down as early in the pull as possible.

---

----------------------------------
"Go yell at an M&M"

take a look at this video...
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EF93rZpczaU

Makes me wonder if this is the book to get (I like what I hear so far), or have others read better?

---

________________________________________________
Proud member of FISHTWITCH: beating you to T1 for over a decade, and working on beating you to T2...

Can't remember what I paid for it, I think it was $15 for the Kobo reader. To sum it up she says that the Pareto Principle applies to swimming (aka the 80/20 rule) in that 80% of your power comes from your pull & therefore that's where your focus needs to be. I would suggest going through her book first and apply her theories first, and then go through Gerry Rodrigues' videos on youtube a few months later - Gerry's stuff IMO is a good extension to what Sheila has shared.

Awful, awful book.

The principle that pull & EVF are the most critical aspect of the stroke might be 100% true, but the book sucks. Terrible pictures and diagrams, bad explanations. You'd think that if a book was about just one aspect of the stroke then it should be the definitive reference, but no.

Most of the book is irrelevant filler, for example an attempt at an in depth discussion of the hydrodynamic principles, taken directly from Swimming Fastest.

Finally, I'm very suspicious of the Amazon reviews. I got the Kindle book.

So if you do a set with an ankle band and no buoy your feet will just stay right at the water level? I tried one recently and my legs sank like stones making me look like an upside down L going through the water.

If you're doing it right, they most certainly will.

I'd say extremely few people will have the same body position with a tight ankle band. To take it one step further take the legs out completely by locking your ankles crossed over each other and most will find it very hard to make it across the pool with their dignity intact. There's no doubt the kick is aiding in body position for pretty much any level of swimmer. It doesn't mean you need a hard beat for distance swimming, just a relaxed kick that assists in keeping the body in line.

---

---

BA coaching http://www.bjornandersson.se

Have to disagree with you on this. AFAIK distance swimmers kick to aid in body rotation not for maintaining horizontal position.

Well, I'd definitely disagree with you.

I think the problem might be you bought the Kindle version. The paper copy has glossy super high quality photos, and I've never seen a better, clearer, more comprehensive TEXT version of the EVF. The good Amazon reviews mirror all the overwhelmingly positive reviews it gets on BT as well as here in the past.

That aside, I still think it's a bit overpriced for what is essentially a one-trick-pony book , although it is quite effective for her point which is that it's all about the EVF and pull power once you've gotten decent body position in the water. And I still think it's more helpful to watch videos of the EVF than see the diagrams and pics. Still, I'd recommend it if you don't know how important the EVF is or if you've never heard of it.

And in other news, cycling requires leg strength and lung capacity! =)

A strong pull is great, but somewhat useless if you're not in a great position to apply it. Also, I'd say a strong pull is generated by being in the right position and being able to engage the right muscles, so a strong pull comes from having good body position.

I still think newbies are best served by learning good body position, then things like rotation, kicking, and pulling.

---

Long Chile was a silly place.

Well, seems to me that applying a downward force with your legs and feet is the easiest way to keep them up high. If that isn't enough, as stated before, just look at what happens to 99% of swimmers body position when you tie their feet together very tightly. I'm honestly at loss for how people can say the kick doesn't help with body position. Propulsion etc is a different discussion.

---

---

BA coaching http://www.bjornandersson.se

This is correct.

It drives me crazy that everyone is lauding Sheila T who spent her whole life swimming. She had an enormously efficient kick that enable her to hold back and maintain speed whole focusing on her pull. For the average AG'er on this forum, some focus on kick will make them faster - the goal is not to develop a 6 beat kick but one that flutters and enables the alignment and pull. Just letting your legs hang and do nothing, hinders everything about your stroke.

---

http://theworldthroumyeyes.tumblr.com/

Your opinion is in the minority. I found the illustrations to be very helpful. Just one chapter of this book drastically improved my 100 times.

I'm not nearly as fast as your are (but, still decent/FOP for my AG). And, have also found that kicking is not needed for good body position. I can't explain it - other than to say to myself "keep the head down (you idiot :-) )"

Maybe I should; but I never use a pull buoy.

Happy Holidays, and, here's to a fast '14 for all (well, except if you're in the 50-54m AG - Hah!)

---

I saw this on a white board in a window box at my daughters middle school...
List of what life owes you:
1. __________
2. __________
3. __________

I think the point trying to made is that if you learn to not depend on kick for leg position, you can let that kick energy translate to proplusion.

With beginner/noob swimmers, they spend huge amounts of energy using a kick to keep their legs up when in reality they should be conserving that energy and learning a better non-kick horizontal body position to conserve that energy.

Same principle at work, but less dramatic as you get better at swimming.

I don't think it's an either or thing. The kick helps with body position and propulsion(but obviously always a smaller part). I don't think you can say your kick only help for one or the other.

I also think a big problem with beginners is that they don't develop their kick at the same rate as the rest of their stroke. Hence they have a very forced and inefficient kick that use a lot of oxygen but doesn't help much for anything. I'm not saying that working on body position in other ways is not important but completely ignoring the lower part of your body doesn't make a lot of sense.

Even very good swimmers will have lower body position without kicking even if the difference is usually less. I know several people here basically say they have no difference in body position without their kick but I believe it when I see it. One good way to find out is to use an old bike tube as a band and set it at different widths and do a few trials. Swim 400m with it super tight and the gradually loosen it for a couple of more 400's and see what happens with speed and body position.(not mentioning a lot of people can't even swim 400m with a band only which should say something)

Mostly I'm surprised there's even a debate about this..

---

---

BA coaching http://www.bjornandersson.se

I agree with you - but I think you're the one making the debate out of it.

Like it or not, the purpose of a kick is NOT mainly to provide lift to the legs (as your prior post implies.)

And it's absolutely true that most true beginners hugely misuse the kick to offset inferior body position and thus waste tons of energy.

But otherwise, yes, the kick most certainly adds a small amount of lift to the legs.

I'm making a debate out of the fact that people wrote earlier that a kick is not necessary to maintain body position which I think is flat out wrong.

Again, if it only provides a small amount of lift why do so many people have problems keeping their body upright swimming with a band only and not when they swim with a band and pull buoy(s)(or something else that creates enough flotation through other means than the kick)?

---

---

BA coaching http://www.bjornandersson.se

I'll also disagree with you here. I've seen plenty of good swimmers swim completely sans-kick, banded.

Are they swimming slightly slower? Yes, they are (I've asked them.) However do they require a kick to keep their legs up? No.

So I'd agree with those above that says a kick is NOT necessary to maintain body position. It's clearly helpful, and I wish my kick was wayyy better than the craptastic one it is, but I've definitely seen swimmers swim completely sans kick so I wouldn't say it's necessary.

I enjoyed the book

However, i feel i got more out of gerry rodrigues' youtube series (with the horrific videographer)
http://www.youtube.com/...t=PLBF77DE2C8EAC3FE4

Great series - although I'm still nowhere man enough to do his 90 minute 'recommended' workout. Dang that sounded hard.

Agree to disagree then. I'd like to see a video of anyone keeping the exact same body position with a tight band around their ankles. Of course real swimmers can do this quite well but again body position will not be exactly the same. And if we look at non elite/great masters swimmers this is more of an exception.

---

---

BA coaching http://www.bjornandersson.se

Maybe someone can post the youtube link to the swim coach who wears a lot of ridiculous hats but does a really impressive demonstration of floating to a completely horizontal position - with NO swimming and NO movement of his extremities.

If he can float completely flat horizontal dead still without even a minimal kick to correct any leg sink, you better believe people can swim with their legs up, even banded.

No doubt there are people that can float like corks, but it is not a learned skill. You are born and or evolved into a place where you either are a floater or a sinker, or somewhere in between. But in general most triathletes are not floaters. They spend a lot of time on land fighting gravity and in general have lower body fat %. More fat = better floating. The 14 year old girls that i used to swim next to could float like otters. Me on the other hand cannot even float on my back. Hard as i try my legs just fall down and then pull the rest of me with them. I cannot band swim because my legs just go straight down. I can maybe do a 50 if i go fast enough and momentum will keep my legs somewhat up, but after the speed falls so do the legs.

So to generalize about what works is really silly. And bjorn is right in that for most triathletes it is very important to develop a kick, not to go fast, but to keep level so that you can swim fast. Anecdotal stories of so and so can go almost as fast with a band may be true, but very rare and not really relevant to this discussion. Most people will struggle with bands on, and people that were never swimmers from running and cycling backgrounds will struggle the most.

I'm sure it's possible to float horizontally for some people but I'm not sure it proves that the leg kick during freestyle swimming doesn't help with body position for almost all swimmers.. A better test would be to take 100 swimmers, tie their ankles together tightly and completely flush against each other and see what happens with body position on average. I'd be extremely surprised if most wouldn't have some problems keeping their legs up after a while.

Also, I have never stated that other things does not influence body position besides the kick.

---

---

BA coaching http://www.bjornandersson.se

Again, you're putting words in our mouths.

We NEVER said you swim identically with a band and kicking. I don't know anybody , internet or in real world, who swims just as fast nonbanded as they do banded, so there's clearly a difference somewhere.

And again, I agree with almost everything you say. It's the comment you made that leg kicking is REQUIRED to keep a good body position that I and others disagree with, given that there are def low-body fat swimmers (like the guy in the youtube video I talk about) who can swim/float with zero kick.

Alot of people have a bad body position because their kick sucks in the first place, ie too wide, bending their knees etc.

I think you'd be surprised as to how much kick some of the top distance freestylers do.

I'm not putting words in your or anyone else's mouth. Where did you hear me talk about swim speed at all(it's a consequence obviously though)?

All I said was that a kick is required to keep the best body position. And I think that it's a rather big influence for almost everyone.

---

---

BA coaching http://www.bjornandersson.se

Would this be it?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oW5nE5FBPsQ

Merry Xmas..:-)

Perhaps it is due to swimming with a band removing something besides lift from the legs?

Let me clarify my position (no pun intended). When I refer to "kicking", I mean the leg activity meant to provide propulsion. I don't kick, but my legs do a very weak two-beat crossover that provides little to no propulsion. I have no doubt that the motion provides other benefits (timing, rotation, etc.) that I would lose if I were forced to use an ankle band.

(thought experiment time)

If I were to wear a cylinder around my legs that muffled any propulsive force, yet allowed freedom of movement, I think that I would swim normally. That is, it is not the interaction of my legs with the water that keeps my legs in their accustomed position.

---

----------------------------------
"Go yell at an M&M"

I would have had a much easier time understanding this if he'd been wearing a Speedo.

I'm off to the pool to embarrass myself for a bit. This will be fun to try but no bands around my ankles! Drowning would not be fun.

---

----------------------------------------------------------------------
Jen

"In order to keep a true perspective on one's importance, everyone should have a dog that worships him and a cat that will ignore him." - Dereke Bruce

Well, swimming with a band removes the kicking motion which is what is being discussed. If someone argues they can keep their legs up as high by just engaging core, finding cog etc without any kick they should be able to do so with a band on too.

Otherwise the rest of what you say I think is pretty much what I've been saying. Most people need some kind of kick to maintain a decent body position even if they don't consider it a strong beat themselves. You probably have an efficient enough kick to help keep your body level that you can maintain with minimal effort. I don't think the kick necessarily needs to add much propulsion either in distance swimming, and I'm sure if you swam with a band set a bit wider to allow some movement you'd do ok with that. Only thing is to me that is very different from saying that kicking isn't needed for a good body position.

Edit to add:

I agree the kick is important for timing etc too but like I brought up earlier many people do ok with a band as long as they get some flotation help from pull buoy etc which is my whole point.

---

---

BA coaching http://www.bjornandersson.se

As I mentioned in my original post, I'm pretty sure Sheila T wrote this in response to what she perceived as a tremendous over-emphasis on body position by the Total Immersion (TI) people, so she probably over-emphasized her point about the pull to make sure readers would "get it". Also, she does not say the kick is of zero importance but rather that the kick is part of the "other 20%" of swimming, with the pull being 80% of it. Also, she's not saying the pull is 80% of propulsion for everyone and the kick 20% but rather that roughly 80% of your training focus should be on pulling and 20% on kicking.

---

"Anyone can be who they want to be IF they have the HUNGER and the DRIVE."

Sheila T says good body position should be able to be taught in one lesson, 2 at the most, and then it's on to mastering the pull.

---

"Anyone can be who they want to be IF they have the HUNGER and the DRIVE."

Hmmm, well, going from 1:12 for 5000 m down to 1:03 is quite a big jump, espec since 1:12:00 is already pretty quick at 1:18.5/100 yd for 5500 yds, i.e. 5000 m in a 25 yd pool. A 1:03:00 for 5500 yd implies 1:08.7/100 yd, so roughly 10 sec/100 yd faster. You'd prob need to be around 18:00 for the 1650, or 1:05.5/100 yd. The poster known as realalbertan went 17:05 for 1500 SCM within the past year, and I imagine there are a few more on here who are that fast but not too many, prob less than 10 who can go sub-18 for 1650 SCY/1500 SCM.

---

"Anyone can be who they want to be IF they have the HUNGER and the DRIVE."

I'll do it!!

To those who say the kick is of no importance: on a forum where folks are trying to save 20 seconds for a 40K TT, show me where swimming with a tight band around the ankles and no kick is faster (or as fast) than swimming with a gentle flutter.

If it can/can't be done, then the discussion is over.

---

http://theworldthroumyeyes.tumblr.com/

I'm still trying to master body position and will probably never get it right (adult onset swimmer, sinking legs...). I have to believe the hydrodynamic drag created by poor position totally swamps any gains using EVF (just look at the surface areas). Probably why I'm 10 to 12 secs faster per 100scy with a pullbouy. I dont think EVF would buy me 10 seconds by itself.

As I said in an earlier post, she's not saying that the kick is completely irrelevant but rather she thinks the pull is around 80% or more of most people's propulsion and the kick 20% or less for most people. Also, the main idea she's against is the TI idea that swimming is all about body position with no focus on propulsive forces. She's not saying don't kick but rather that the pull is of more importance.

---

"Anyone can be who they want to be IF they have the HUNGER and the DRIVE."

I knew someone would say this and ya, I see this every single day at the pool, as the vast majority of casual swimmers have very poor body position, with their feet 1.5 to 2.5 ft under the water. However, I think body position is highly related to not only head position but also how you pull. If you keep your head down and reach way out and really pull hard, the very act of reaching and "pulling over the barrel" tends to lift the body. I see a lot of people who try to pull too fast and their arms just slip through the water without really grabbing a hold of the water. You should be able to feel the water as almost a solid force on your hands and forearms when you're pulling. Add in a light to moderate flutter kick, and then voila, your legs stay up. When kicking, try to point your toes and keep the flutter kick tight and close to the water surface.

Also, have you tried lessons with a good instructor/coach??? There's a guy at my club whom I've seen take several complete non-swimmers, afraid of putting their head in the water, to competent, efficient swimmers in 3 months.

---

"Anyone can be who they want to be IF they have the HUNGER and the DRIVE."

Yeah, I wouldn't worry too much about your kick. I worry about mine because the difference in a 50m - 200m race is decided by very little and I don't have to bike and run later on.

You need to correct your big leg sinking then. Yes, it's true that if your legs are sinking so much that you're getting 10sec/100 with a pull buoy, you gotta fix that first. But after you get those legs flat, I think you'll be shocked at how hard it is to gain even 5sec/100 just by better streamlining.

If it were just streamlining and not significantly added power in the EVF position and it was 80% streamlining and 20% power/EVF, it would be entirely possible to swim fairly fast fast (like sub 1:20/100yd pace for distance) with zero hard swim efforts, and just a meticulous focus on reducing drag. I think you know what the answer to that training method would be.

As said above though, as a recent-onset adult swimmer, I do feel that for raw beginners and those slower than 2:00-2:20/100yds, I'd be more inclined to agree with you, it's closer to the reverse of what Sheils says, with 80% streamlining and 20% EVF/power for that group. That's why those 2:20/100yd beginners can make so much progress with no hard swimming, just as TI recommends, and why almost no coach would prioritize these slow swimmers to do hard intervals to generate arm power rather than focusing nearly exclusively on streamlining and energy conservation by reducing extra mvmts. However, get to even basic intermediate swim ability and that rate of improvement disappears nearly completely. (I know this having gone through the entire improvement to big plateau with this TI method when I started swimming.) Sheila's book is clearly aimed more at the intermediate and above crowd who has fixed any leg sink that's costing 10sec/100.

Yes, I don't get the difficulty with body position so much. I mean, yes, if you aren't flexible enough to get your arm comfortably above your head you are going to have trouble. Otherwise it's just you laying in the water trying to get your body as flat on the surface as it can be. Your legs are dropping a bit? Force the top of your chest and head down over your lungs (where the air is). Point your toes. Keep your legs mostly straight -- kick mostly from core/hip and feel the flexation hit mostly your ankle. Yes, your knee must move a little, but just a little. The end.

The EVF though, seems to be more difficult for people to understand. Most everybody likes to perform motions where they are strong. The EVF position requires a lot of flexibility and it is difficult to feel strong (like bench press strong) during its execution. Remember the engineering of swimming. You need to produce force in the opposite direction that you wish to travel -- with as little lateral angle as possible. Pushing down doesn't do much for you. Dropping that elbow and losing all that water at the beginning of your pull doesn't do much for you. But, you will feel stronger pushing down, and you will feel stronger dropping that elbow. Heck, you probably WILL be creating more force than EVF creates. It's just that most of those forces will be in a useless direction and you won't be going as fast.

I swam a whopping 1500 yards yesterday. I tried the ankles crossed no kicking and immediately my legs sank to the point where I was pretty much standing. :-)

Focusing on the high elbow shown in the video made a difference and my shoulders got tired quicker. I could feel the amount of water I was grabbing (right word?). I'm sure I was still way off but I did see a little improvement.

I did an addition 500 yards on the kickboard and focused on not thrashing my legs and found a level that sped me up.

I'm so slow and have always been since I'm an adult onset swimmer but I enjoy it and would like to get faster. The competitive side of me that enjoys competing with myself.

---

----------------------------------------------------------------------
Jen

"In order to keep a true perspective on one's importance, everyone should have a dog that worships him and a cat that will ignore him." - Dereke Bruce

1/3 your swim was kick work. Nice job!

That was in addition to the 1500! I was BAMF yesterday. The sun was out and coming through the big windows at the pool. It was quiet because no kids were allowed in and I was almost able to convince myself I was swimming outside in the warm sun. Until I got out. Brrr....

---

----------------------------------------------------------------------
Jen

"In order to keep a true perspective on one's importance, everyone should have a dog that worships him and a cat that will ignore him." - Dereke Bruce

Ya, basically you have to push water backward for you to move forward. I think calling the high elbow "early vertical forearm" may cause some confusion but then "high elbow" caused confusion also. i think the concept of "grabbing a hold of the water" with your hand and forearm might be a better way to understand it. When I'm pulling, it feels like I have a dinner plate on my hands even when I'm not wearing paddles.

---

"Anyone can be who they want to be IF they have the HUNGER and the DRIVE."

I'm never sure how to best explain it, just that I want as much flat surface as possible pointing backwards when I start to pull. (if this is confusing, look at your forearm, the flat spot pointing back!)

Light - You're nailing it, I think this is exactly the group that Sheila is targeting. You have an excellent memory of the book from reading it 2 yrs ago, as the bold section above could have come straight out of the book:)

---

"Anyone can be who they want to be IF they have the HUNGER and the DRIVE."

So your kicking was 1/4 of your total yardage (500/2000). Assuming that you swim 50% faster than you kick (i.e., you could swim 150 in the same time it takes you to kick 100), then on a time/effort basis your kick was 1/3 of your workout, e.g. 500 kick time-wise equals 750 swim on a time-basis which plus the 1500 swim equals 2250 time-wise, and 750/2250 = 1/3. This concept is useful for planning how much time a workout with lots of kicking will take. I've read that top swimmers will sometimes do an all-kick workout of say 5000 yds in 2 hrs, versus the usual 7000-8000 that they would usually do in that same time frame.

---

"Anyone can be who they want to be IF they have the HUNGER and the DRIVE."

Ack! Math! My head hurts.

I get it. Kinda.

---

----------------------------------------------------------------------
Jen

"In order to keep a true perspective on one's importance, everyone should have a dog that worships him and a cat that will ignore him." - Dereke Bruce

Not to argue because I do think the kick is important (e.g., I kick 1000-2000 per workout) but JOOC, did you swim with Sheila T in Mich or at UGA, i.e. how do you know for sure that she has a great kick??? Or are you kind of assuming she had to have it to swim at that level??? I'll bet she did but just wondered if you actually swam with her.

---

"Anyone can be who they want to be IF they have the HUNGER and the DRIVE."

I haven't read the book, but based on the comments here, I have a slightly different opinion.

The pull is part of swimming successfully, but I think the most important aspects to swimming are drag elimination and efficiency per stroke. Great freestylers like Yang, Thorpe and Popov were never the "strongest" swimmers in the pool, they were always the most efficient. They all spent years refining technique, honing body position and as a result all look effortless in the water. Arm position is part of this, but not for power reasons. As Gary Hall Sr. points out, EVF is effective because it lowers drag on the arm, not because it produces more power. I'd actually argue that body position, stability in the water, and clean rotation around a central axis are all even more important than EVF, IMO.

How do you know that though??? I don't buy that at all since all of those guys had/have very strong, powerful pulls, as well as very strong kicks. Maybe the best way to put it is that fast, efficient freestyle is a combo effort of a strong, high elbow pull combined with a good head position and a decent to strong kick to keep the legs up and add possibly some amount of propulsion. Also, Sheila T points out that Johnny Weismuller, aka Tarzan, swam with his head out of the water, but yet went 57.4 for 100 LCM, or around 51.0 for 100 yds, back in 1924 despite his body position being total sh*t. He did, however, use a high elbow stroke, high elbow being the term used for like 70-80 yrs before someone started calling it "early vertical forearm (EVF)".

---

"Anyone can be who they want to be IF they have the HUNGER and the DRIVE."

Wasn't Popov also almost legendary for his big-time swim volume? To me, that almost screams huge conditioning factor. (Obviously great technique as well, but hard to deny superior conditioning and likely superior 'strength' if you're putting up monster yardage, no?)

Pretty sure this is the video you're referencing...
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XvAMq9rSzyU

My understanding is that popov actualy produced less power than his competitors, but that it was the elimination of drag that allowed him to beat them - afaik this was tested. he also did pretty big mileage for a sprinter afaik and also likely had a monster kick (as did thorpe)

Ya, I've seen that video before but had forgotten about it. I think though that the debate here may be a matter of semantics, as Sheila T points out that the deeper, straighter arm pull actually produces more power and she said that some sprinters are actually using that technique now in the 50 free. Sheila refers to the EVF as a "technique" but also emphasizes that it takes a lot of muscular endurance/power to hold that form across many, many repetitions of the pulling motion required to swim more than a 25. Also, having a good strong pull causes your body to ride higher in the water since the faster you go, the higher you ride, so the proper pull contributes to good body position and stability. The "clean rotation around a central axis" is part of a good pull also, and is perhaps another way of saying you're pulling in a controlled manner w/o swinging your arms wildly and w/o crossing over.

---

"Anyone can be who they want to be IF they have the HUNGER and the DRIVE."

Great freestylers like Yang, Thorpe and Popov were never the "strongest" swimmers in the pool, they were always the most efficient.


I don't know about that. I would say they are easily the strongest swimmers in the pool -- without a doubt the most powerful.

Thought experiment...

You can receive one of two gifts -- Popov's pull power or his overall stroke efficiency given your own pull power. Which would you take?

Me? I'll take Popov's pull power for the win. Thank you.

In my case, this is easy - I'd take stroke efficiency. One of these days I'll get it, maybe ;)

ABSOLUTELY, I'd take Popov's pull in a heartbeat.

---

"Anyone can be who they want to be IF they have the HUNGER and the DRIVE."

This whole discussion on pulling power vs stroke efficiency reminds me of an article I read in May 1997 in "Inside Triathlon", and have saved across the past 16.5 yrs. The author, Steve Tarpinian, who also happens to have written his own book on swimming for tri-people entitled "The Essential Swimmer", is discussing his observations from watching the 1996 Oly swimming on TV. He calls out a Swedish swimmer, Anders Holmertz, for being really inefficient because he has little to no kick, does not rotate his hips properly, and hence is "one of the worst fish-tailers I've ever seen". Yet what Holmertz undoubtedly did have, although Tarpinian does not admit this, was a really, really strong pull, as otherwise he would not have gone 1:48 in the 200 free and 3:50 in the 400 free (LCM of course), to place 5th overall in both events in 1996. Actually, Holmertz was a bit off his game in '96 since in the 1992 Games when he went 1:46 for a silver in the 200 and 3:46 in the 400 for the bronze. In a way, it takes a lot of nerve to criticize an oly-caliber swimmer, but Tarpinian's critique brought home to me how it really is mostly about the pull, at least for some swimmers who lack a strong kick. Consider that the current WRs in the 200 and 400 are 1:42 and 3:40 and it's clear to see that Holmertz, despite committing grievous errors in Tarpinian's eyes and undoubtedly many others' eyes, was going pretty darn fast, and in just a Speedo and goggles:)

---

"Anyone can be who they want to be IF they have the HUNGER and the DRIVE."

funny you mention that Erick, RealAlbertan can confirm I'm a fishtailer. I've spent many hours in the pool trying to straighten it out

Well, you're in great company then!!! Maybe that's just your natural style, as apparently it was for Holmertz. I'd take his times any day of the week, even if I had to become a "fish-tailer":)

---

"Anyone can be who they want to be IF they have the HUNGER and the DRIVE."

having watched Sheila more than most here, I can honestly say she worked 80% harder on her kick because she was 80% stronger on her pull. A true professional works on their weaknesses but realizes their strengths, that's one of the qualities that made her great! and then she could swim and run, the rest is history. Probably the best Triathlete/Athlete we/USA have had so far.....

Agree! When it comes to work outs, weaknesses over strengths. That's why I'm running so much this winter. I'm 100% capable of a 63-65 minute IM swim, I'm not that great on a bike and my run, ohhh so ugly.

Ya, acc to a friend of mine who had knowledge of Holmertz's training, he "kicked like crazy in practice" trying to improve his kick.

So, JOOC, did you coach Sheila, or swim on a team with her or??? I met her briefly at the UGA Triathlon back in the spring of 1992, when she was just finishing her collegiate swimming career and was still "just a swimmer". She swam a leg on a relay and had the fastest 1500 m split male or female in the whole race by like 1:00 or something like that. I met her by chance when I got back in the water to warm down after the race. I remember that she had a pretty fast turnover rate, even when just warming down, but obv that makes a lot of sense since she is not that tall. Anyway, she was really nice and I've been a fan of hers ever since.

---

"Anyone can be who they want to be IF they have the HUNGER and the DRIVE."

More like the Peanut Gallery than her Coach! But I would shout at her and make her laugh :) I guarded at the pool she swam at and we would run together sometimes.

Ah, lifeguard, of course!!! What years are we talking about here, and where, again, JOOC???

---

"Anyone can be who they want to be IF they have the HUNGER and the DRIVE."

Last years of her Triathlon Career in Clermont

Ah, I see, thanks, it's interesting that she was still working on her kick, even after her 30 or so yrs of swimming at that point. Makes me feel better since I'm still working on my kick also:)

I've done several tri races in Clermont; it seems like it would be nice place to live, not overly expensive since it is inland, and you can be at the beach in an hour.

---

"Anyone can be who they want to be IF they have the HUNGER and the DRIVE."

I think what you and bjorn are getting at is that the foot/ankle position is very critical. This is my unvalidated suspicion as a lifelong swimmer and new aero engineer, but in good swimmers who have exceptional ankle flexibility and thus have their ankles extended during the stroke such that their foot is nearly parallel with the floor of the pool at the (rotationally) horizontal torso portion of the stroke, the feet naturally deflect just enough water to give the feet/legs buoyancy. As the ankles flex toward the shins, the flow over the feet stalls and they lose their lift. Obviously, the ankle flexion/extension varies during the kick, but the "neutral position," if you will, is with the upper surface of the foot nearly parallel (+/- maybe 10 deg) to the tibia. While kicking, the lift/separation phenomenon seems less obvious, but when the ankles are banded with the feet side-by-side, it seems more apparent. The good swimmers (who not coincidentally have good ankle flexibility) will have their feet oriented at such an angle that they generate just enough lift to stay afloat when their feet are banded thusly. Poor swimmers (who, also not coincidentally, have poor ankle flexibility in extension and will thus have their ankles flexed more toward the tibia) will have less lift on the feet, causing them to sink. By "stacking" the feet or crossing the ankles, the flow that would generate the lift is almost completely interrupted, so the feet will pretty much inevitably sink to some extent regardless of ankle flexibility.

---

__________________________

I tweet!

Zack - I think you're describing this whole legs/ankles/feet issue pretty well. My only addition to your description is that it just takes a minor 2-beat kick to keep those feet up if your ankles are flexing properly such that the top of your foot is close to being parallel to your shin. As you astutely point out, and as bjorn said earlier, the closer the ankles are together when you put on an ankle band, the harder it will be to get the lift from the kick, up to the crossing over of the ankles which completely negates any possibility of keeping the legs up. With a loose ankle band where the ankles are 3-4 inches apart, the effect on the lift is much less than with a tight band.

After watching tons of swimmers kicking, pulling, and swimming over the years, I have developed a theory that, in order for your kick to be strongly contribute to your propulsive power, you have to be able to kick pretty fast relative to your swimming speed. I'll give two examples, one of a regular person and one of an elite.

1) A girl who swims at my club swims at around 1:40/100m for a 1500m at moderate effort, i.e. 50 sec/50m. She can kick 400 m at 1:05/50 m at moderate effort, or about 30% slower than she swims. She never, ever swims with the pull buoy because she says it messes up her stroke, prob because her kick is so fully integrated into her stroke.

2) On youtube, there's a video of Charlie Houchin (swam on the 2012 Oly 800 free relay) kicking 400 LCM in 4:55. Houchin swam 3:48.3 for the 400m at the Oly Trials, finishing 4th and missing the team in that event by 0.50 sec. Comparing his kick to his swim, he kicks about 29% slower than he swims.

Now obviously 2 examples do not a theory prove but my guess is that a swimmer needs to be able to kick within 30-35% (or lower) of his/her swim time before the kick is going to make a decisive diff in his/her times over a race of much distance, e.g. 400m and up. Certainly in the 50 and 100 free, 99.9% of swimmers will be kicking pretty hard, and the 200 is in the breaking point range.

In any case, that's my kicking theory thrown out for comments:)

---

"Anyone can be who they want to be IF they have the HUNGER and the DRIVE."

I've got to say, most of this thread goes over a lot of ground we've tread quite heavily here on ST already, but this idea of percentage of swim speed as an indicator of kick contribution is something I haven't seen before and is probably worth digging into more (and obviously there are a huge number of factors influencing this one).

Congrats Eric, you just won the internet with a 'new idea'.

---

-----------------------------------------------------------
Proud member of the GUCrew
Twitter: @tripigeon Blog: Ironpigeon.com
Thoughts on AG sponsorships / community involvement: http://bit.ly/1dQlVDy

What do you think about this video:

http://www.youtube.com/...BPsQ&app=desktop

Start at 5:40 - that's the body float sans movement position I was referring to when I said that it is possible to maintain a flat position in the water even with lean bodyfat, without kicking.

(I def can't do that - still trying and failing!)

Thanks, glad at least one other person does not think this is a crazy idea. Maybe I'll start a new thread and try to get most of the fish to weigh in on it:)

---

"Anyone can be who they want to be IF they have the HUNGER and the DRIVE."

 

If you're slowly/gently kicking at water that is disappearing behind you as you pul your way away from it then you can't exert much force on it (and it can't exert much force on you). Power output=(kick force +pull force)* Velocity. Power is what you want, velocity is your swimming speed, and force is the amount of force you can exert on the water with your feet and hands. Because your arms are providing a substantial portion of the force (and, consequently, power) your legs are somewhat along for the ride.

Propeller pitch is an analogous concept. If the airplane is flying faster than the prop is pitched for, then it will just spin out without actually making the plane go faster.

In the case of swimming, I think the people that can kick at a high percentage of their swim speed just happen to also be able to kick hard enough during freestyle that their feet can actually generate a meaningful amount of force. But there's more to it than just how fast you can kick (in the sense of frequency, I.e how many kick beats per minute or per stroke cycle). Again, analogous to the propeller, I suspect this has something to do with the "pitch," in this case, of the foot.

I haven't really spent enough time thinking about the kick since my pull needs work first, but this sure is something interesting to consider.

---

__________________________

I tweet!

Absolutely, the pitch you mention goes back to the ankle flexibility, i.e. those who have very loose, flexible ankles can use their feet like fins and kick at a relatively fast speed on the kickboard. When I say "kick fast", that is what I'm referring to, e.g. m/sec velocity kicking with no arm pull. As I said, I think a person has to be able to kick at a relatively close speed to their swim speed in order for the kick to actually add to the force generated. For people w/o very flex ankles, the energy cost of kicking in terms oxygen use takes too much away from the pull to be a net benefit.

---

"Anyone can be who they want to be IF they have the HUNGER and the DRIVE."

Try the fist drill. It'll force you to feel it or you won't move anywhere :) Mark Allen talked to my club and said this was the most important drill for understanding EVF and the pull, and really the only drill that he'd recommend doing consistently

Swimming with bands have taught me a lesson or two about my balance and pull in the water ... they both need work.

Those balance drills mentioned in the video (lightheir referred to) look interesting...going to work on that.

Back when I was still doing triathlon I used to do those. They are a bugger. Thanks for reminding me to add them in.

---

----------------------------------------------------------------------
Jen

"In order to keep a true perspective on one's importance, everyone should have a dog that worships him and a cat that will ignore him." - Dereke Bruce

To be honest I think those drills might be a bit of a time waster. Even the guys in the video, who are very good at floating, can't do it without having feet and arms wider apart than in a normal swimming position. Adding in the fact that center of gravity shifts slightly throughout the stroke cycle when you're actually swimming probably means those drills aren't specific enough to do more than make you float better in static position. Probably better to spend that time working on body position while swimming and keep at it with the band.

---

---

BA coaching http://www.bjornandersson.se

Not a fish here, but I feel similarly. It's so hard to do that drill like the guy in the video, but it's trivially easy with no significant waste of energy to do even a minimal rare kick to get flat in the water. There are plenty of legit fast swimmers here who can't do that and it's not hampering them at all.

I only posted that video in response to some folks who insist that a kick is required to keep the legs up if you're lean. I used to think so, but that video clearly proves otherwise.

Thanks for the responses. This is all fairly new to me but I'm enjoying the process. I'll incorporate more kick/band work. The bands are particularly hard but I know if I keep at it the benefit will be great.

I was swimming today with my new FINIS Monofoil fin. It's two boots molded into a big fin used for dolphin kicking.

The surprise using this thing was how forceful & effective I could pull if I decided to freestyle a bit. Not only did the massive fin streamline flow off my legs& feet , it created such a stable foundation for my front (arms etc.) to work from.

This is the magic in the kick. The kick provides the base or foundation on which you execute the pull. If your core to feet is jelly or mush, then your pull will be too, simple physics.

I also think that the kick supercharges, scavenges the flow coming off the pull for greater effect. So the effective of the kick is amplified by the flow off the pull, vs just using the kick alone.

I don't agree with 80% comes from the pull. My feeling it's closer to 60/40 propulsion and 50/50 effort or power directed at each end.

---

Training Tweets: https://twitter.com/Jagersport_com
FM Sports: http://fluidmotionsports.com

All that you say is true but that huge mono-fin is having a huge impact on your perception. The usual estimates for strong kickers are 80-85% pull/15-20% kick, for freestyle. Breaststroke is prob the most kick dominated stroke.

---

"Anyone can be who they want to be IF they have the HUNGER and the DRIVE."

Thanks for the reminder. From guppy-level swim team to the present, this is the drill that I have despised the most because it feels like I am going nowhere in the water, relative to my normal swim speed. I have swim team tomorrow and I'll remind my coach of this thread and ask her to torture me with what I need most ;-)

---

DFL > DNF > DNS

Just finished the series of Tower 26 videos. Wow, a lot of great info. That guy is not messing around with his 90 minute workouts.... SOUNDS BRUTAL

---

______________________________

mark