having watched Sheila more than most here, I can honestly say she worked 80% harder on her kick because she was 80% stronger on her pull. A true professional works on their weaknesses but realizes their strengths, that's one of the qualities that made her great! and then she could swim and run, the rest is history. Probably the best Triathlete/Athlete we/USA have had so far.....

Agree! When it comes to work outs, weaknesses over strengths. That's why I'm running so much this winter. I'm 100% capable of a 63-65 minute IM swim, I'm not that great on a bike and my run, ohhh so ugly.

Ya, acc to a friend of mine who had knowledge of Holmertz's training, he "kicked like crazy in practice" trying to improve his kick.

So, JOOC, did you coach Sheila, or swim on a team with her or??? I met her briefly at the UGA Triathlon back in the spring of 1992, when she was just finishing her collegiate swimming career and was still "just a swimmer". She swam a leg on a relay and had the fastest 1500 m split male or female in the whole race by like 1:00 or something like that. I met her by chance when I got back in the water to warm down after the race. I remember that she had a pretty fast turnover rate, even when just warming down, but obv that makes a lot of sense since she is not that tall. Anyway, she was really nice and I've been a fan of hers ever since.

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"Anyone can be who they want to be IF they have the HUNGER and the DRIVE."

More like the Peanut Gallery than her Coach! But I would shout at her and make her laugh :) I guarded at the pool she swam at and we would run together sometimes.

Ah, lifeguard, of course!!! What years are we talking about here, and where, again, JOOC???

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"Anyone can be who they want to be IF they have the HUNGER and the DRIVE."

Last years of her Triathlon Career in Clermont

Ah, I see, thanks, it's interesting that she was still working on her kick, even after her 30 or so yrs of swimming at that point. Makes me feel better since I'm still working on my kick also:)

I've done several tri races in Clermont; it seems like it would be nice place to live, not overly expensive since it is inland, and you can be at the beach in an hour.

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"Anyone can be who they want to be IF they have the HUNGER and the DRIVE."

I think what you and bjorn are getting at is that the foot/ankle position is very critical. This is my unvalidated suspicion as a lifelong swimmer and new aero engineer, but in good swimmers who have exceptional ankle flexibility and thus have their ankles extended during the stroke such that their foot is nearly parallel with the floor of the pool at the (rotationally) horizontal torso portion of the stroke, the feet naturally deflect just enough water to give the feet/legs buoyancy. As the ankles flex toward the shins, the flow over the feet stalls and they lose their lift. Obviously, the ankle flexion/extension varies during the kick, but the "neutral position," if you will, is with the upper surface of the foot nearly parallel (+/- maybe 10 deg) to the tibia. While kicking, the lift/separation phenomenon seems less obvious, but when the ankles are banded with the feet side-by-side, it seems more apparent. The good swimmers (who not coincidentally have good ankle flexibility) will have their feet oriented at such an angle that they generate just enough lift to stay afloat when their feet are banded thusly. Poor swimmers (who, also not coincidentally, have poor ankle flexibility in extension and will thus have their ankles flexed more toward the tibia) will have less lift on the feet, causing them to sink. By "stacking" the feet or crossing the ankles, the flow that would generate the lift is almost completely interrupted, so the feet will pretty much inevitably sink to some extent regardless of ankle flexibility.

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Zack - I think you're describing this whole legs/ankles/feet issue pretty well. My only addition to your description is that it just takes a minor 2-beat kick to keep those feet up if your ankles are flexing properly such that the top of your foot is close to being parallel to your shin. As you astutely point out, and as bjorn said earlier, the closer the ankles are together when you put on an ankle band, the harder it will be to get the lift from the kick, up to the crossing over of the ankles which completely negates any possibility of keeping the legs up. With a loose ankle band where the ankles are 3-4 inches apart, the effect on the lift is much less than with a tight band.

After watching tons of swimmers kicking, pulling, and swimming over the years, I have developed a theory that, in order for your kick to be strongly contribute to your propulsive power, you have to be able to kick pretty fast relative to your swimming speed. I'll give two examples, one of a regular person and one of an elite.

1) A girl who swims at my club swims at around 1:40/100m for a 1500m at moderate effort, i.e. 50 sec/50m. She can kick 400 m at 1:05/50 m at moderate effort, or about 30% slower than she swims. She never, ever swims with the pull buoy because she says it messes up her stroke, prob because her kick is so fully integrated into her stroke.

2) On youtube, there's a video of Charlie Houchin (swam on the 2012 Oly 800 free relay) kicking 400 LCM in 4:55. Houchin swam 3:48.3 for the 400m at the Oly Trials, finishing 4th and missing the team in that event by 0.50 sec. Comparing his kick to his swim, he kicks about 29% slower than he swims.

Now obviously 2 examples do not a theory prove but my guess is that a swimmer needs to be able to kick within 30-35% (or lower) of his/her swim time before the kick is going to make a decisive diff in his/her times over a race of much distance, e.g. 400m and up. Certainly in the 50 and 100 free, 99.9% of swimmers will be kicking pretty hard, and the 200 is in the breaking point range.

In any case, that's my kicking theory thrown out for comments:)

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"Anyone can be who they want to be IF they have the HUNGER and the DRIVE."

I've got to say, most of this thread goes over a lot of ground we've tread quite heavily here on ST already, but this idea of percentage of swim speed as an indicator of kick contribution is something I haven't seen before and is probably worth digging into more (and obviously there are a huge number of factors influencing this one).

Congrats Eric, you just won the internet with a 'new idea'.

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What do you think about this video:

http://www.youtube.com/...BPsQ&app=desktop

Start at 5:40 - that's the body float sans movement position I was referring to when I said that it is possible to maintain a flat position in the water even with lean bodyfat, without kicking.

(I def can't do that - still trying and failing!)

Thanks, glad at least one other person does not think this is a crazy idea. Maybe I'll start a new thread and try to get most of the fish to weigh in on it:)

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"Anyone can be who they want to be IF they have the HUNGER and the DRIVE."

 

If you're slowly/gently kicking at water that is disappearing behind you as you pul your way away from it then you can't exert much force on it (and it can't exert much force on you). Power output=(kick force +pull force)* Velocity. Power is what you want, velocity is your swimming speed, and force is the amount of force you can exert on the water with your feet and hands. Because your arms are providing a substantial portion of the force (and, consequently, power) your legs are somewhat along for the ride.

Propeller pitch is an analogous concept. If the airplane is flying faster than the prop is pitched for, then it will just spin out without actually making the plane go faster.

In the case of swimming, I think the people that can kick at a high percentage of their swim speed just happen to also be able to kick hard enough during freestyle that their feet can actually generate a meaningful amount of force. But there's more to it than just how fast you can kick (in the sense of frequency, I.e how many kick beats per minute or per stroke cycle). Again, analogous to the propeller, I suspect this has something to do with the "pitch," in this case, of the foot.

I haven't really spent enough time thinking about the kick since my pull needs work first, but this sure is something interesting to consider.

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Absolutely, the pitch you mention goes back to the ankle flexibility, i.e. those who have very loose, flexible ankles can use their feet like fins and kick at a relatively fast speed on the kickboard. When I say "kick fast", that is what I'm referring to, e.g. m/sec velocity kicking with no arm pull. As I said, I think a person has to be able to kick at a relatively close speed to their swim speed in order for the kick to actually add to the force generated. For people w/o very flex ankles, the energy cost of kicking in terms oxygen use takes too much away from the pull to be a net benefit.

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"Anyone can be who they want to be IF they have the HUNGER and the DRIVE."

Try the fist drill. It'll force you to feel it or you won't move anywhere :) Mark Allen talked to my club and said this was the most important drill for understanding EVF and the pull, and really the only drill that he'd recommend doing consistently

Swimming with bands have taught me a lesson or two about my balance and pull in the water ... they both need work.

Those balance drills mentioned in the video (lightheir referred to) look interesting...going to work on that.

Back when I was still doing triathlon I used to do those. They are a bugger. Thanks for reminding me to add them in.

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Jen

"In order to keep a true perspective on one's importance, everyone should have a dog that worships him and a cat that will ignore him." - Dereke Bruce

To be honest I think those drills might be a bit of a time waster. Even the guys in the video, who are very good at floating, can't do it without having feet and arms wider apart than in a normal swimming position. Adding in the fact that center of gravity shifts slightly throughout the stroke cycle when you're actually swimming probably means those drills aren't specific enough to do more than make you float better in static position. Probably better to spend that time working on body position while swimming and keep at it with the band.

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BA coaching http://www.bjornandersson.se

Not a fish here, but I feel similarly. It's so hard to do that drill like the guy in the video, but it's trivially easy with no significant waste of energy to do even a minimal rare kick to get flat in the water. There are plenty of legit fast swimmers here who can't do that and it's not hampering them at all.

I only posted that video in response to some folks who insist that a kick is required to keep the legs up if you're lean. I used to think so, but that video clearly proves otherwise.

Thanks for the responses. This is all fairly new to me but I'm enjoying the process. I'll incorporate more kick/band work. The bands are particularly hard but I know if I keep at it the benefit will be great.

I was swimming today with my new FINIS Monofoil fin. It's two boots molded into a big fin used for dolphin kicking.

The surprise using this thing was how forceful & effective I could pull if I decided to freestyle a bit. Not only did the massive fin streamline flow off my legs& feet , it created such a stable foundation for my front (arms etc.) to work from.

This is the magic in the kick. The kick provides the base or foundation on which you execute the pull. If your core to feet is jelly or mush, then your pull will be too, simple physics.

I also think that the kick supercharges, scavenges the flow coming off the pull for greater effect. So the effective of the kick is amplified by the flow off the pull, vs just using the kick alone.

I don't agree with 80% comes from the pull. My feeling it's closer to 60/40 propulsion and 50/50 effort or power directed at each end.

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All that you say is true but that huge mono-fin is having a huge impact on your perception. The usual estimates for strong kickers are 80-85% pull/15-20% kick, for freestyle. Breaststroke is prob the most kick dominated stroke.

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"Anyone can be who they want to be IF they have the HUNGER and the DRIVE."

Thanks for the reminder. From guppy-level swim team to the present, this is the drill that I have despised the most because it feels like I am going nowhere in the water, relative to my normal swim speed. I have swim team tomorrow and I'll remind my coach of this thread and ask her to torture me with what I need most ;-)

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DFL > DNF > DNS

Just finished the series of Tower 26 videos. Wow, a lot of great info. That guy is not messing around with his 90 minute workouts.... SOUNDS BRUTAL

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mark