I think the point trying to made is that if you learn to not depend on kick for leg position, you can let that kick energy translate to proplusion.

With beginner/noob swimmers, they spend huge amounts of energy using a kick to keep their legs up when in reality they should be conserving that energy and learning a better non-kick horizontal body position to conserve that energy.

Same principle at work, but less dramatic as you get better at swimming.

I don't think it's an either or thing. The kick helps with body position and propulsion(but obviously always a smaller part). I don't think you can say your kick only help for one or the other.

I also think a big problem with beginners is that they don't develop their kick at the same rate as the rest of their stroke. Hence they have a very forced and inefficient kick that use a lot of oxygen but doesn't help much for anything. I'm not saying that working on body position in other ways is not important but completely ignoring the lower part of your body doesn't make a lot of sense.

Even very good swimmers will have lower body position without kicking even if the difference is usually less. I know several people here basically say they have no difference in body position without their kick but I believe it when I see it. One good way to find out is to use an old bike tube as a band and set it at different widths and do a few trials. Swim 400m with it super tight and the gradually loosen it for a couple of more 400's and see what happens with speed and body position.(not mentioning a lot of people can't even swim 400m with a band only which should say something)

Mostly I'm surprised there's even a debate about this..

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BA coaching http://www.bjornandersson.se

I agree with you - but I think you're the one making the debate out of it.

Like it or not, the purpose of a kick is NOT mainly to provide lift to the legs (as your prior post implies.)

And it's absolutely true that most true beginners hugely misuse the kick to offset inferior body position and thus waste tons of energy.

But otherwise, yes, the kick most certainly adds a small amount of lift to the legs.

I'm making a debate out of the fact that people wrote earlier that a kick is not necessary to maintain body position which I think is flat out wrong.

Again, if it only provides a small amount of lift why do so many people have problems keeping their body upright swimming with a band only and not when they swim with a band and pull buoy(s)(or something else that creates enough flotation through other means than the kick)?

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BA coaching http://www.bjornandersson.se

I'll also disagree with you here. I've seen plenty of good swimmers swim completely sans-kick, banded.

Are they swimming slightly slower? Yes, they are (I've asked them.) However do they require a kick to keep their legs up? No.

So I'd agree with those above that says a kick is NOT necessary to maintain body position. It's clearly helpful, and I wish my kick was wayyy better than the craptastic one it is, but I've definitely seen swimmers swim completely sans kick so I wouldn't say it's necessary.

I enjoyed the book

However, i feel i got more out of gerry rodrigues' youtube series (with the horrific videographer)
http://www.youtube.com/...t=PLBF77DE2C8EAC3FE4

Great series - although I'm still nowhere man enough to do his 90 minute 'recommended' workout. Dang that sounded hard.

Agree to disagree then. I'd like to see a video of anyone keeping the exact same body position with a tight band around their ankles. Of course real swimmers can do this quite well but again body position will not be exactly the same. And if we look at non elite/great masters swimmers this is more of an exception.

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BA coaching http://www.bjornandersson.se

Maybe someone can post the youtube link to the swim coach who wears a lot of ridiculous hats but does a really impressive demonstration of floating to a completely horizontal position - with NO swimming and NO movement of his extremities.

If he can float completely flat horizontal dead still without even a minimal kick to correct any leg sink, you better believe people can swim with their legs up, even banded.

No doubt there are people that can float like corks, but it is not a learned skill. You are born and or evolved into a place where you either are a floater or a sinker, or somewhere in between. But in general most triathletes are not floaters. They spend a lot of time on land fighting gravity and in general have lower body fat %. More fat = better floating. The 14 year old girls that i used to swim next to could float like otters. Me on the other hand cannot even float on my back. Hard as i try my legs just fall down and then pull the rest of me with them. I cannot band swim because my legs just go straight down. I can maybe do a 50 if i go fast enough and momentum will keep my legs somewhat up, but after the speed falls so do the legs.

So to generalize about what works is really silly. And bjorn is right in that for most triathletes it is very important to develop a kick, not to go fast, but to keep level so that you can swim fast. Anecdotal stories of so and so can go almost as fast with a band may be true, but very rare and not really relevant to this discussion. Most people will struggle with bands on, and people that were never swimmers from running and cycling backgrounds will struggle the most.

I'm sure it's possible to float horizontally for some people but I'm not sure it proves that the leg kick during freestyle swimming doesn't help with body position for almost all swimmers.. A better test would be to take 100 swimmers, tie their ankles together tightly and completely flush against each other and see what happens with body position on average. I'd be extremely surprised if most wouldn't have some problems keeping their legs up after a while.

Also, I have never stated that other things does not influence body position besides the kick.

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BA coaching http://www.bjornandersson.se

Again, you're putting words in our mouths.

We NEVER said you swim identically with a band and kicking. I don't know anybody , internet or in real world, who swims just as fast nonbanded as they do banded, so there's clearly a difference somewhere.

And again, I agree with almost everything you say. It's the comment you made that leg kicking is REQUIRED to keep a good body position that I and others disagree with, given that there are def low-body fat swimmers (like the guy in the youtube video I talk about) who can swim/float with zero kick.

Alot of people have a bad body position because their kick sucks in the first place, ie too wide, bending their knees etc.

I think you'd be surprised as to how much kick some of the top distance freestylers do.

I'm not putting words in your or anyone else's mouth. Where did you hear me talk about swim speed at all(it's a consequence obviously though)?

All I said was that a kick is required to keep the best body position. And I think that it's a rather big influence for almost everyone.

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BA coaching http://www.bjornandersson.se

Would this be it?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oW5nE5FBPsQ

Merry Xmas..:-)

Perhaps it is due to swimming with a band removing something besides lift from the legs?

Let me clarify my position (no pun intended). When I refer to "kicking", I mean the leg activity meant to provide propulsion. I don't kick, but my legs do a very weak two-beat crossover that provides little to no propulsion. I have no doubt that the motion provides other benefits (timing, rotation, etc.) that I would lose if I were forced to use an ankle band.

(thought experiment time)

If I were to wear a cylinder around my legs that muffled any propulsive force, yet allowed freedom of movement, I think that I would swim normally. That is, it is not the interaction of my legs with the water that keeps my legs in their accustomed position.

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"Go yell at an M&M"

I would have had a much easier time understanding this if he'd been wearing a Speedo.

I'm off to the pool to embarrass myself for a bit. This will be fun to try but no bands around my ankles! Drowning would not be fun.

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Jen

"In order to keep a true perspective on one's importance, everyone should have a dog that worships him and a cat that will ignore him." - Dereke Bruce

Well, swimming with a band removes the kicking motion which is what is being discussed. If someone argues they can keep their legs up as high by just engaging core, finding cog etc without any kick they should be able to do so with a band on too.

Otherwise the rest of what you say I think is pretty much what I've been saying. Most people need some kind of kick to maintain a decent body position even if they don't consider it a strong beat themselves. You probably have an efficient enough kick to help keep your body level that you can maintain with minimal effort. I don't think the kick necessarily needs to add much propulsion either in distance swimming, and I'm sure if you swam with a band set a bit wider to allow some movement you'd do ok with that. Only thing is to me that is very different from saying that kicking isn't needed for a good body position.

Edit to add:

I agree the kick is important for timing etc too but like I brought up earlier many people do ok with a band as long as they get some flotation help from pull buoy etc which is my whole point.

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BA coaching http://www.bjornandersson.se

As I mentioned in my original post, I'm pretty sure Sheila T wrote this in response to what she perceived as a tremendous over-emphasis on body position by the Total Immersion (TI) people, so she probably over-emphasized her point about the pull to make sure readers would "get it". Also, she does not say the kick is of zero importance but rather that the kick is part of the "other 20%" of swimming, with the pull being 80% of it. Also, she's not saying the pull is 80% of propulsion for everyone and the kick 20% but rather that roughly 80% of your training focus should be on pulling and 20% on kicking.

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"Anyone can be who they want to be IF they have the HUNGER and the DRIVE."

Sheila T says good body position should be able to be taught in one lesson, 2 at the most, and then it's on to mastering the pull.

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"Anyone can be who they want to be IF they have the HUNGER and the DRIVE."

Hmmm, well, going from 1:12 for 5000 m down to 1:03 is quite a big jump, espec since 1:12:00 is already pretty quick at 1:18.5/100 yd for 5500 yds, i.e. 5000 m in a 25 yd pool. A 1:03:00 for 5500 yd implies 1:08.7/100 yd, so roughly 10 sec/100 yd faster. You'd prob need to be around 18:00 for the 1650, or 1:05.5/100 yd. The poster known as realalbertan went 17:05 for 1500 SCM within the past year, and I imagine there are a few more on here who are that fast but not too many, prob less than 10 who can go sub-18 for 1650 SCY/1500 SCM.

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"Anyone can be who they want to be IF they have the HUNGER and the DRIVE."

I'll do it!!

To those who say the kick is of no importance: on a forum where folks are trying to save 20 seconds for a 40K TT, show me where swimming with a tight band around the ankles and no kick is faster (or as fast) than swimming with a gentle flutter.

If it can/can't be done, then the discussion is over.

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http://theworldthroumyeyes.tumblr.com/

I'm still trying to master body position and will probably never get it right (adult onset swimmer, sinking legs...). I have to believe the hydrodynamic drag created by poor position totally swamps any gains using EVF (just look at the surface areas). Probably why I'm 10 to 12 secs faster per 100scy with a pullbouy. I dont think EVF would buy me 10 seconds by itself.

As I said in an earlier post, she's not saying that the kick is completely irrelevant but rather she thinks the pull is around 80% or more of most people's propulsion and the kick 20% or less for most people. Also, the main idea she's against is the TI idea that swimming is all about body position with no focus on propulsive forces. She's not saying don't kick but rather that the pull is of more importance.

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"Anyone can be who they want to be IF they have the HUNGER and the DRIVE."