Sheila T's "Swimming Speed Secrets": It's all about the pull

Triathlon Forum
48

I’m not putting words in your or anyone else’s mouth. Where did you hear me talk about swim speed at all(it’s a consequence obviously though)?

All I said was that a kick is required to keep the best body position. And I think that it’s a rather big influence for almost everyone.

I’ll do it!!

To those who say the kick is of no importance: on a forum where folks are trying to save 20 seconds for a 40K TT, show me where swimming with a tight band around the ankles and no kick is faster (or as fast) than swimming with a gentle flutter.

If it can/can’t be done, then the discussion is over.

49

If you can’t float & you have to kick to stay on top of the body, the pull is less effective. For that reason alone, I think TI sets a good foundation for teaching the non-swimmer how to use their body position to float.

Sheila T says good body position should be able to be taught in one lesson, 2 at the most, and then it’s on to mastering the pull.

I’m still trying to master body position and will probably never get it right (adult onset swimmer, sinking legs…). I have to believe the hydrodynamic drag created by poor position totally swamps any gains using EVF (just look at the surface areas). Probably why I’m 10 to 12 secs faster per 100scy with a pullbouy. I dont think EVF would buy me 10 seconds by itself.

50

I’m not putting words in your or anyone else’s mouth. Where did you hear me talk about swim speed at all(it’s a consequence obviously though)?
All I said was that a kick is required to keep the best body position. And I think that it’s a rather big influence for almost everyone.

I’ll do it!! To those who say the kick is of no importance: on a forum where folks are trying to save 20 seconds for a 40K TT, show me where swimming with a tight band around the ankles and no kick is faster (or as fast) than swimming with a gentle flutter. If it can/can’t be done, then the discussion is over.

As I said in an earlier post, she’s not saying that the kick is completely irrelevant but rather she thinks the pull is around 80% or more of most people’s propulsion and the kick 20% or less for most people. Also, the main idea she’s against is the TI idea that swimming is all about body position with no focus on propulsive forces. She’s not saying don’t kick but rather that the pull is of more importance.

51

If you can’t float & you have to kick to stay on top of the body, the pull is less effective. For that reason alone, I think TI sets a good foundation for teaching the non-swimmer how to use their body position to float.

Sheila T says good body position should be able to be taught in one lesson, 2 at the most, and then it’s on to mastering the pull.

I’m still trying to master body position and will probably never get it right (adult onset swimmer, sinking legs…). I have to believe the hydrodynamic drag created by poor position totally swamps any gains using EVF (just look at the surface areas). Probably why I’m 10 to 12 secs faster per 100scy with a pull buoy. I don’t think EVF would buy me 10 seconds by itself.

I knew someone would say this and ya, I see this every single day at the pool, as the vast majority of casual swimmers have very poor body position, with their feet 1.5 to 2.5 ft under the water. However, I think body position is highly related to not only head position but also how you pull. If you keep your head down and reach way out and really pull hard, the very act of reaching and “pulling over the barrel” tends to lift the body. I see a lot of people who try to pull too fast and their arms just slip through the water without really grabbing a hold of the water. You should be able to feel the water as almost a solid force on your hands and forearms when you’re pulling. Add in a light to moderate flutter kick, and then voila, your legs stay up. When kicking, try to point your toes and keep the flutter kick tight and close to the water surface.

Also, have you tried lessons with a good instructor/coach??? There’s a guy at my club whom I’ve seen take several complete non-swimmers, afraid of putting their head in the water, to competent, efficient swimmers in 3 months.

52

Thanks for posting… You just saved me a ton of wasted time this New Year - I was going to start working on my kick. I’ll just start working on pull, EVF, and perhaps some body roll. (I got to cut another 8-9 mins off my 5k time… And get me down to 1h 03m ish)…

Yeah, I wouldn’t worry too much about your kick. I worry about mine because the difference in a 50m - 200m race is decided by very little and I don’t have to bike and run later on.

53

If you can’t float & you have to kick to stay on top of the body, the pull is less effective. For that reason alone, I think TI sets a good foundation for teaching the non-swimmer how to use their body position to float.

Sheila T says good body position should be able to be taught in one lesson, 2 at the most, and then it’s on to mastering the pull.

I’m still trying to master body position and will probably never get it right (adult onset swimmer, sinking legs…). I have to believe the hydrodynamic drag created by poor position totally swamps any gains using EVF (just look at the surface areas). Probably why I’m 10 to 12 secs faster per 100scy with a pullbouy. I dont think EVF would buy me 10 seconds by itself.

You need to correct your big leg sinking then. Yes, it’s true that if your legs are sinking so much that you’re getting 10sec/100 with a pull buoy, you gotta fix that first. But after you get those legs flat, I think you’ll be shocked at how hard it is to gain even 5sec/100 just by better streamlining.

If it were just streamlining and not significantly added power in the EVF position and it was 80% streamlining and 20% power/EVF, it would be entirely possible to swim fairly fast fast (like sub 1:20/100yd pace for distance) with zero hard swim efforts, and just a meticulous focus on reducing drag. I think you know what the answer to that training method would be.

As said above though, as a recent-onset adult swimmer, I do feel that for raw beginners and those slower than 2:00-2:20/100yds, I’d be more inclined to agree with you, it’s closer to the reverse of what Sheils says, with 80% streamlining and 20% EVF/power for that group. That’s why those 2:20/100yd beginners can make so much progress with no hard swimming, just as TI recommends, and why almost no coach would prioritize these slow swimmers to do hard intervals to generate arm power rather than focusing nearly exclusively on streamlining and energy conservation by reducing extra mvmts. However, get to even basic intermediate swim ability and that rate of improvement disappears nearly completely. (I know this having gone through the entire improvement to big plateau with this TI method when I started swimming.) Sheila’s book is clearly aimed more at the intermediate and above crowd who has fixed any leg sink that’s costing 10sec/100.

54

Yes, I don’t get the difficulty with body position so much. I mean, yes, if you aren’t flexible enough to get your arm comfortably above your head you are going to have trouble. Otherwise it’s just you laying in the water trying to get your body as flat on the surface as it can be. Your legs are dropping a bit? Force the top of your chest and head down over your lungs (where the air is). Point your toes. Keep your legs mostly straight – kick mostly from core/hip and feel the flexation hit mostly your ankle. Yes, your knee must move a little, but just a little. The end.

The EVF though, seems to be more difficult for people to understand. Most everybody likes to perform motions where they are strong. The EVF position requires a lot of flexibility and it is difficult to feel strong (like bench press strong) during its execution. Remember the engineering of swimming. You need to produce force in the opposite direction that you wish to travel – with as little lateral angle as possible. Pushing down doesn’t do much for you. Dropping that elbow and losing all that water at the beginning of your pull doesn’t do much for you. But, you will feel stronger pushing down, and you will feel stronger dropping that elbow. Heck, you probably WILL be creating more force than EVF creates. It’s just that most of those forces will be in a useless direction and you won’t be going as fast.

55

I swam a whopping 1500 yards yesterday. I tried the ankles crossed no kicking and immediately my legs sank to the point where I was pretty much standing. :slight_smile:

Focusing on the high elbow shown in the video made a difference and my shoulders got tired quicker. I could feel the amount of water I was grabbing (right word?). I’m sure I was still way off but I did see a little improvement.

I did an addition 500 yards on the kickboard and focused on not thrashing my legs and found a level that sped me up.

I’m so slow and have always been since I’m an adult onset swimmer but I enjoy it and would like to get faster. The competitive side of me that enjoys competing with myself.

56

1/3 your swim was kick work. Nice job!

57

That was in addition to the 1500! I was BAMF yesterday. The sun was out and coming through the big windows at the pool. It was quiet because no kids were allowed in and I was almost able to convince myself I was swimming outside in the warm sun. Until I got out. Brrr…

58

Yes, I don’t get the difficulty with body position so much. I mean, yes, if you aren’t flexible enough to get your arm comfortably above your head you are going to have trouble. Otherwise it’s just you laying in the water trying to get your body as flat on the surface as it can be. Your legs are dropping a bit? Force the top of your chest and head down over your lungs (where the air is). Point your toes. Keep your legs mostly straight – kick mostly from core/hip and feel the flex hit mostly your ankle. Yes, your knee must move a little, but just a little. The end.

The EVF though, seems to be more difficult for people to understand. Most everybody likes to perform motions where they are strong. The EVF position requires a lot of flexibility and it is difficult to feel strong (like bench press strong) during its execution. Remember the engineering of swimming. You need to produce force in the opposite direction that you wish to travel – with as little lateral angle as possible. Pushing down doesn’t do much for you. Dropping that elbow and losing all that water at the beginning of your pull doesn’t do much for you. But, you will feel stronger pushing down, and you will feel stronger dropping that elbow. Heck, you probably WILL be creating more force than EVF creates. It’s just that most of those forces will be in a useless direction and you won’t be going as fast.

Ya, basically you have to push water backward for you to move forward. I think calling the high elbow “early vertical forearm” may cause some confusion but then “high elbow” caused confusion also. i think the concept of “grabbing a hold of the water” with your hand and forearm might be a better way to understand it. When I’m pulling, it feels like I have a dinner plate on my hands even when I’m not wearing paddles.

59

I’m never sure how to best explain it, just that I want as much flat surface as possible pointing backwards when I start to pull. (if this is confusing, look at your forearm, the flat spot pointing back!)

60

If you can’t float & you have to kick to stay on top of the body, the pull is less effective. For that reason alone, I think TI sets a good foundation for teaching the non-swimmer how to use their body position to float.

Sheila T says good body position should be able to be taught in one lesson, 2 at the most, and then it’s on to mastering the pull.

I’m still trying to master body position and will probably never get it right (adult onset swimmer, sinking legs…). I have to believe the hydrodynamic drag created by poor position totally swamps any gains using EVF (just look at the surface areas). Probably why I’m 10 to 12 secs faster per 100scy with a pullbouy. I dont think EVF would buy me 10 seconds by itself.

You need to correct your big leg sinking then. Yes, it’s true that if your legs are sinking so much that you’re getting 10sec/100 with a pull buoy, you gotta fix that first. But after you get those legs flat, I think you’ll be shocked at how hard it is to gain even 5sec/100 just by better streamlining.

If it were just streamlining and not significantly added power in the EVF position and it was 80% streamlining and 20% power/EVF, it would be entirely possible to swim fairly fast fast (like sub 1:20/100yd pace for distance) with zero hard swim efforts, and just a meticulous focus on reducing drag. I think you know what the answer to that training method would be.

As said above though, as a recent-onset adult swimmer, I do feel that for raw beginners and those slower than 2:00-2:20/100yds, I’d be more inclined to agree with you, it’s closer to the reverse of what Sheils says, with 80% streamlining and 20% EVF/power for that group. That’s why those 2:20/100yd beginners can make so much progress with no hard swimming, just as TI recommends, and why almost no coach would prioritize these slow swimmers to do hard intervals to generate arm power rather than focusing nearly exclusively on streamlining and energy conservation by reducing extra mvmts. However, get to even basic intermediate swim ability and that rate of improvement disappears nearly completely. (I know this having gone through the entire improvement to big plateau with this TI method when I started swimming.) Sheila’s book is clearly aimed more at the intermediate and above crowd who has fixed any leg sink that’s costing 10sec/100.

Light - You’re nailing it, I think this is exactly the group that Sheila is targeting. You have an excellent memory of the book from reading it 2 yrs ago, as the bold section above could have come straight out of the book:)

61

That was in addition to the 1500! I was BAMF yesterday. The sun was out and coming through the big windows at the pool. It was quiet because no kids were allowed in and I was almost able to convince myself I was swimming outside in the warm sun. Until I got out. Brrr…

So your kicking was 1/4 of your total yardage (500/2000). Assuming that you swim 50% faster than you kick (i.e., you could swim 150 in the same time it takes you to kick 100), then on a time/effort basis your kick was 1/3 of your workout, e.g. 500 kick time-wise equals 750 swim on a time-basis which plus the 1500 swim equals 2250 time-wise, and 750/2250 = 1/3. This concept is useful for planning how much time a workout with lots of kicking will take. I’ve read that top swimmers will sometimes do an all-kick workout of say 5000 yds in 2 hrs, versus the usual 7000-8000 that they would usually do in that same time frame.

62

Ack! Math! My head hurts.

I get it. Kinda.

63

There’s no doubt the kick is aiding in body position for pretty much any level of swimmer. It doesn’t mean you need a hard beat for distance swimming, just a relaxed kick that assists in keeping the body in line.

This is correct.

It drives me crazy that everyone is lauding Sheila T who spent her whole life swimming. She had an enormously efficient kick that enable her to hold back and maintain speed whole focusing on her pull. For the average AG’er on this forum, some focus on kick will make them faster - the goal is not to develop a 6 beat kick but one that flutters and enables the alignment and pull. Just letting your legs hang and do nothing, hinders everything about your stroke.

Not to argue because I do think the kick is important (e.g., I kick 1000-2000 per workout) but JOOC, did you swim with Sheila T in Mich or at UGA, i.e. how do you know for sure that she has a great kick??? Or are you kind of assuming she had to have it to swim at that level??? I’ll bet she did but just wondered if you actually swam with her.

64

I haven’t read the book, but based on the comments here, I have a slightly different opinion.

The pull is part of swimming successfully, but I think the most important aspects to swimming are drag elimination and efficiency per stroke. Great freestylers like Yang, Thorpe and Popov were never the “strongest” swimmers in the pool, they were always the most efficient. They all spent years refining technique, honing body position and as a result all look effortless in the water. Arm position is part of this, but not for power reasons. As Gary Hall Sr. points out, EVF is effective because it lowers drag on the arm, not because it produces more power. I’d actually argue that body position, stability in the water, and clean rotation around a central axis are all even more important than EVF, IMO.

65

I haven’t read the book, but based on the comments here, I have a slightly different opinion.

The pull is part of swimming successfully, but I think the most important aspects to swimming are drag elimination and efficiency per stroke. Great freestylers like Yang, Thorpe and Popov were never the “strongest” swimmers in the pool, they were always the most efficient. They all spent years refining technique, honing body position and as a result all look effortless in the water. Arm position is part of this, but not for power reasons. As Gary Hall Sr. points out, EVF is effective because it lowers drag on the arm, not because it produces more power. I’d actually argue that body position, stability in the water, and clean rotation around a central axis are all even more important than EVF, IMO.

How do you know that though??? I don’t buy that at all since all of those guys had/have very strong, powerful pulls, as well as very strong kicks. Maybe the best way to put it is that fast, efficient freestyle is a combo effort of a strong, high elbow pull combined with a good head position and a decent to strong kick to keep the legs up and add possibly some amount of propulsion. Also, Sheila T points out that Johnny Weismuller, aka Tarzan, swam with his head out of the water, but yet went 57.4 for 100 LCM, or around 51.0 for 100 yds, back in 1924 despite his body position being total sh*t. He did, however, use a high elbow stroke, high elbow being the term used for like 70-80 yrs before someone started calling it “early vertical forearm (EVF)”.

66

Wasn’t Popov also almost legendary for his big-time swim volume? To me, that almost screams huge conditioning factor. (Obviously great technique as well, but hard to deny superior conditioning and likely superior ‘strength’ if you’re putting up monster yardage, no?)

67

I haven’t read the book, but based on the comments here, I have a slightly different opinion.

The pull is part of swimming successfully, but I think the most important aspects to swimming are drag elimination and efficiency per stroke. Great freestylers like Yang, Thorpe and Popov were never the “strongest” swimmers in the pool, they were always the most efficient. They all spent years refining technique, honing body position and as a result all look effortless in the water. Arm position is part of this, but not for power reasons. As Gary Hall Sr. points out, EVF is effective because it lowers drag on the arm, not because it produces more power. I’d actually argue that body position, stability in the water, and clean rotation around a central axis are all even more important than EVF, IMO.

Pretty sure this is the video you’re referencing…
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XvAMq9rSzyU