Sounds like you need to be posting here.

http://forum.slowtwitch.com/gforum.cgi?do=post_view_flat;post=1566945;page=1;sb=post_latest_reply;so=ASC;mh=25;

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If a competitor want to compete in their age group, so be it. Fast people are everywhere, deal with it.

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I don't believe you can race as a pro during the year and then later in the year race AG, due to the way the elite license is issued.

AG -> Pro yep.

You are a complete pussy and USAT's response is 100% on the money. Again, to reiterate the key point, you are a whining pussy. Toughen up a bit and stop making excuses.

I think that MultiSport Canada has come up with a good solution in the Recharge with Milk Triathlon Series in Ontario. In addition to Pro and AG categories, there is also an "Elite Age Group" category. Entrants are typically high level amateurs (possibly with some level of sponsorship) or ex-pros. You don't need an elite card to qualify, you just have to submit proof of meeting time standards. Since there is definitely a grey area between AG and pro, the EAG category serves as a catchall for these athletes.

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You are trying to stir up negative emotions about an athlete. You clearly have an axe to grind or you would not have brought it up. Do I need to restate my point again?

The way I read it a Pro can justr enter any AG race at any time, then immediately re apply for a Pro card.. I'm not sure thats a good idea, but I have no issue whatsoever with a Pro winning the OG retiring and race AGer. Seem like changing your status 1 x per year is reasonable, but maybe I read the policy wrong.

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Styrrell

X2!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

I appreciate the sentiment! I don't race against her either, so tell me why you are bringing this up almost a year after it happened? My point is that your motive are not as innocent as you are trying to make it out to be. I don't know what it is, but saying you just "opened it up for discussion" is pretty transparent.

I have no problem with it and actually think it's pretty cool. Are ex-pros supposed to race pro forever? Susan is close to 45. How about Dave Scott? He's almost 60 and still kicking ass.

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Formerly DrD

Would it be appropriate to race against Lance A. as a amateur at nationals? I don't have a firm feeling either way but it does seem odd that a medal winner in the olympics in the same sport is in the same category as someone who competes in the amateur nationals who hopes to be on the US amateur team. And yes I don't mind someone calling be a name for my opinion but ....an opinion on the OP subject would be more interesting.

What do you propose the policy should be, then? That a once-pro needs to stay pro? For how long? Forever? She is 43 years old with a job and kids and could in no way compete as a pro at this point. Get her pro card, yes, but a 2:06 Olympic time isn't going to finish in the money at any race. So in essence you would prefer that she sit around in this athletic purgatory until she is slower and more on par with other AGers? That's hardly fair. I don't envy the position she is in but I still don't see any problem with the existing policy.

I didn't hear the comments last year after AG Nats but if they were anonymous whispers from the haters in the crowd I can guess what they were.

ETA: She's not in the start list for 2012 anyway.

USAT should absolutely not change the policy. If you can't beat them tough shit. Train more. AG Nationals is an elite race already. There shouldn't be an "amateur elite" wave at a championship event.

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But she was an ITU athlete, so she isn't very good cyclist right?

What is the issue here? Really? It's just about someone taking away hard age groupers' medals

Why is this a policy issue, because of one person? There are dozens of other should-be pros out there who don't card up. Where is the outrage there.
I agree that it's a little weird that Susan actually wants to bother to go to nationals to race age group, but she has the right.

What ever happened to the idea, "my competition is better, I should train harder and get better". Seems like you want it to be more like "My competition is better, I should get them disqualified"

I have no problem with it. There are amatures that beat current pros in the IM and 70.3 distances nearly every race. Should those be automatically pulled out of the amature ranks because of their abilities? I mean geez . . .that just wouldn't be fair for them to race against regular people anymore. They're too fast.

The time you've spent whining and trying to keep ex pros out of nats might be better used training if it means so much to you. I would say that it is my opinion that the folks we send to AG WORLDS should be pro-caliber athletes.

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It seemed like a good idea at the time. . .

So, if you think USAT should change it, then have you drafted a letter to USAT outlining your opinion and data to support that opinion? Have you attempted to get in contact with your regional USAT rep for discussion? Or attempted to become a USAT rep yourself to try to effect the change you feel is needed in the process?

Or has your entire campaign been a few one liners on an internet forum sprinkled with LMAO and implying that others are idiots for not immediately agreeing with you?

(I for one would be interested in the original question that you got the response from)

John

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This reminds me of the "should pro's be allowed to race collegiate nationals" thread. You raise your level. You're entering a competition. They make all of us better.

I think these folks complaining should just go race against 1st graders. She meets all the specs for an AGer, so she should go do her best and kick as much butt as she can. Anyone who even asks this questions needs to get over themselves. If they think they are fast, they are kidding themselves. A lot of the real fast folks have not need, or money, or ego, to worry about racing others. They just go race, and fast.

.

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Lions don't lose sleep worrying about the sheep

Go post on beginnertriathlete. All the slow people will agree with you there.

This doesn't make any sense. How do you determine "talent"? How do you then break out the groups by talent level? By your logic, anyone who finished in front of you shouldn't be allowed to race in the same category as you because they obviously have more talent. Is it fair for the people that finish last that all those people finishing in front of them are 'more talented'?

I'm not being sarcastic with this post. Some folks are faster than others. If they choose not to race professional, then it's perfectly fair for them to race AG. Trying to match people up with similar 'talent levels' is an impossible task and solves a problem that doesn't exist...

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-Andrew

"BTW, I don't see Tony Stewart getting into Local stockcar racing after NASCAR!"

Well then you don't read much news. He's often known to go toss his hat in local races. Not so much these days now that he's a team owner as well, but it still happens.

I'll race anyone who shows up. I love a challenge, even after 27 years around the sport. If Spencer Smith, who is roughly my age, shows up and races AG against me, I'm not gonna cry when he blows my doors off.

It's funny because the only people I really hear complain about this are so removed from the podium removing one athlete isn't going to change anything...

Yeah they ride 30kph and I have to explain to my mother why our sport is so embarrassed having a race in the Olympics.

I have raced nationals a few times. I have raced TeamUSA 3 times. And you want to talk about fast folks, race at the world level! And how many of them COULD have been a pro if they wanted, plenty I would assume.
I race against a number of folks on the west coast who clearly could have been a pro if they wanted to with killer times.

So, the issue you do not understand is a person getting a pro license as some point in their life really does not mean much. Many other super fast folks never went pro.

The rules are the rules. Seem very fair to me. I want as many fast folks racing against me as possible. It lets me race the best I can be, and if that means I am dead last, who cares. I did the best I could on that day
with my skills.

So, I would not support any change by USAT. The system they have today works find and IMO, is totally fair!!!

..

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Lions don't lose sleep worrying about the sheep

Who the hell thinks its unfair for a mid 40's ex pro to be racing AG at an elite level national event? If you've qualified to race nationals, which is embarrassingly easy to do, you should expect to be racing the best in the country. When you are mid 40's you aren't racing competitively at the pro level anymore. If you have to whine, bitch and complain that you feel your competition is too tough at nationals because some of them once held a pro card then you are the problem with the sport. Are you going to bitch when Drew Scott wins Hyvee as an amateur and say he's too fast and should have taken his pro card? When Michael Lovato retires and continues racing AG you're probably going to be whining the he has to go off in his own separate wave since he once raced pro? There are a lot of bitchy posts on ST but this has to be one of the most pathetic.

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Because going pro means you are making a career of it! I can't even begin to count the nunmer of people who race AG who are far beyond the ability of most pro's. Being "pro" doesn't mean you are somehow faster then the rest of the world. It simply means you are doing it for your job. Just because you are fast doesn't mean you go pro. Tough concept to understand obviously.

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No idea, but what is such a big deal to say you are a Pro? Does not make the person any faster. If one is really out there to race for themselves, does one have to have a special title on them?
Does one really need to be special so they can start at the beginning? Do AGer's beat Pro's at times? Just look at the Kona results? There are plenty of Pros that are not that fast.

Again, not sure what your point is. In any sport some are faster than others. In a lot of ways this Pro vs elite vs AG stuff is just about letting folks have an Ego. Did the 80 year old person "win" when they
were dead last?

I exercise and race to try and help me not get cancer. I love being around the folks in this sport who care about their bodies and health. There are lots of folks faster than me who kick my butt. I would much
rather race all of them and be dead last than win a race by 15 minutes which happens a lot in my older AG.

.

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Lions don't lose sleep worrying about the sheep

And again, exactly how is the policy flawed?

.

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Lions don't lose sleep worrying about the sheep

You're a lost cause. Obviously set on trying to legislate yourself to a higher finishing spot in some arbitrary catagory. Good luck with that. Meanwhile those of us actually interested in racing will continue to enjoy competeting against the best the race can throw at us. And when I get beat I won't be looking for a loophole to make myself feel better.

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Part of what you say is my point. I think the upper echelon should be separate. So what about the USAT ranking? Is that info worth anything? Can it be the people that poopoo the idea are afraid to be put in the category of racing in the elites? They like being the fastest AG'er? Do you think, Dave Scott would want to race as an AG'er, after being a legend? @Travis pathetic? Really? Have you ever had an intelligent conversation without calling names or trying to demean someone else?

If you want to have an intellegent at least have a clue about the statements you make. Are you telling me you're under the assumption that Dave Scott has never raced AG after retiring???

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No, the upper echelon, as you want to define it, is just the top of the AG. Yes, I think Dave Scott is in my AG and I would love to race head to head against him.
USAT ranking is about the best AGers in our country.

So, should Dean Harper never have been allowed to race AG? He was a pro. Kicked everyones butt for many years until he had some medical issues and still kicks 99% of folks butts. He has killed me for years
and nope, never hear me bitching about it. He has won ITU worlds at least once when I was with him.

.

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Lions don't lose sleep worrying about the sheep

When?

When he kicked your butt did you get faster or stop racing? Do you still race today?

The policy is not flawed, it is just not how you would like it to be. Unless a person is lying about their age, line them up and let them kick my butt. My job is to make that as hard for them as possible.

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I have deceptive speed.........I'm slower than I look!

Have you ever won a triathlon? AG/OA or Masters?

Oh god. At least know what you are talking about. Dave Scott raced Savageman a few years ago. He got beat by other AG'ers. He also beat a few AG'ers. I've been at a little sprint Dave showed up to and raced. Are you trying to actually argue that Dave Scott shouldn't be allowed to race AG? That you need to put him in a separate "ex really fast guy that makes me feel inadequate wave"?

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actually, he's been known to jump in a race midgets on the dirt track every now and then. his first ride was for my neighbor.

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Fruit snacks are for winners

Did you steal this motto from the Sufferfest? Or do you have a Vanilla Ice type explanation about how you changed a few words so its different?

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There are people out there who could race as a pro but decide not to for other reasons... personal reasons, time commitment, not willing to quit their job so they can train as much as everyone else, etc. Adam Webber comes to mind. He's been able to get his pro card for quite some time now. Does that mean he's too fast as an AG and shouldn't be racing AG?

In swimming, do Ryan Lochte and Michael Phelps (who are pro swimmers) compete in their own category? No, they compete in the same races as high schoolers and college kids.

The policy is not flawed. You just don't like it. Not everything is always going to be the way you like it. That's called LIFE.

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blog

Everyone posting in this thread should better edumacate themselves on USAT Elite memberships...

Missy Franklin is going to finish high school and go to college. She'll continue competing at both levels. Guess we need to stick her in some ex-olympians only meet since it won't be fair to all the other swimmers and they might not win.

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Several.

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I have deceptive speed.........I'm slower than I look!

Maybe try a change in perspective. Say you showed up last year and raced Susan Williams and came second. Instead of looking at it as 'I would have been the USAT age group 40-44 champion if that ex-Olympian wasn't allowed to race!' you could look at it as 'I was lucky enough to race an Olympic bronze medalist head-to-head at USAT nationals!'. It's a pretty cool aspect of our sport that there are these opportunities to race legends of the sport.

Race a legend? The exact reason she should race against other legends? We are still racing against ourselves and our peers, our AG peers. Yes, some are fast and others faster. What to race a pro, get fast and become a pro!

Please try to make a coherent statement. The above makes zero sense and I'm not sure what you are trying to say.

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Have you seen this thread?

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I placed 2nd overall to Oklahoma pro Daniel Agnew...beat me by 1.5 mins. I'm like "sweet". Then Zoot Elite team member Chuck Sloan destroys us all by 10 mins. at the Regional Sprint champs in Ark. Was I pissed? Yeah, but only because he beat us so bad that our rankings points were shot to hell! I could care less who shows up...race the clock!

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Sorry can't explain everything, read above. So @ Travis Thomason, are you an AG'er or Elite?

So what you're really saying is that you want to win your AG, but you want USAT to exclude the best people so that you can do it? Seems logical to me...

@Paulo, what does that have to do this thread? Whining? Just asking questions, getting driving answers about different points of view. What's your take? You train Elites and Pro's, do you think they should be able to race as an AG'er at anytime?

When you type something that doesn't make sense you should explain it. Judging from your previous statements you don't do a lot of research so despite the fact that I don't hide anonymously on the internet and it should be pretty easy for you to discover whether I race elite or AG I'll save you the time. AG. I've beaten guys carrying pro cards who probably shouldn't be but are trying to make a career of it. I've been destroyed by amateurs who are better then then a lot of card carrying elites as well. What you don't seem to get is that just because someone has an elite card does not then magically make them faster then all the other AG'ers out there. If and when they decide to hang it up from racing triathlon professionally they will be back to racing AG if you want to continue in the sport and this is exactly where they belong. The majority of the top amateurs you see at any significant event could be easily racing as professionals if they chose to. Maybe you should be complaining that they are too fast now.

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It has nothing to do with me! Don't you get it! It's about racing cherry pickers! Get it!

It actually is about you. No one else seems to have a problem with it.

Um, considering that I qualified for it this year (not going) the bar can't be very high. I'm embarassignly slow.

For the record I have no issues whatsoever with the current policy.

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"Unless you have a ... GF who might put out that night and that night only ... skip it and race." - AndyPants 3-15-2007

I think that it's great for the sport that great champions like Susan Williams and others remain in the sport after their career as professional athletes has ended. Athletes like Susan Williams are amazing ambassadors for the sport not only for what they did, but what they are doing now as professionals in other fields and family people. As such, we should be thankful to have such wonderful people involved in our sport and should embrace their presence.

I am not sure to what kind of humankind you belong to, but in my part of humankind we don't tell other people that they're "not one of us." There are many kinds of discrimination and even if you think that your kind of discrimination is acceptable, it is not. So hopefully you will realize this, apologize to Susan Williams and others that you are discriminating against and embrace the great opportunity you have to compete with such amazing athletes.

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What?!

Pro, Elite, Age Group, who cares. Show up on race day, put in your best effort and go on from there.

By the way, most people couldn't give two $&!ts about the USAT rankings.

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You have no idea! This forum is the exact opposite of the general consensus. Like where did all the democrats come from? All my friends are republican!

Then go back to your little echo chamber so you can get the answer that you want to hear.

Susan Williams is a cherry picker because she's a mid 40's ex-pro who showed up to race what should be a national championship of the best athletes in each age group?!?!?! Is this seriously the freaking issue you have???

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Turn it into discrimination? To exclude or to separate? We do that with AG'ers, Elites and Pro's now? Are you assuming it's bad to have an Olympian race other Olympians , Pro's and Elites? You agree with allowing an Olympian to race AG? Then why categorize anything?

Surprised this is a debated issue! If you are pro, you race pro. If you're not a pro, you race "age group". AG is just a label we have given to amateur and recreational competitors. There are no prerequisites to be an "age grouper". Once a pro retires, they are now amateurs. They are now AGers. If any pro retires and then wants to continue competing recreationally, nobody should ever tell them that they can't do that. When a pro decides to stop racing pro, they risk losing sponsorships and prizes. SO if they are in their peak, I don't see the logic in retiring. However, they can do whatever they want. To disallow somebody's participation just because they are fit is ridiculous.

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Paulo I apologize for all the bad things I've ever said about you. I guess we can at least agree on this one.

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At what point do we say someone is a legend and then say only they can race each other? If you make the Olympics can you only race Olympians after you are done racing as an Elite? When and where would they race. They would have a wave 2 athletes. In masters swimming it happens all the time that former greats get back in the water and race. They don't have the time to train full time and they are older and simply are not fast enough any more, but they still like to see what they can achieve and push the boundaries of themselves. She does not want to race Pro, but still likes to race. Someone said the same about Master cyclists. I think its great that these athletes get back in and do it showing that its more of a commitment to a healthier life. Since I have my elite licnse, in the future, 10 years down the road, am I no longer able to race simply because I once had my elite license? What should I do in 20 or 30 years and I still want to race? Sorry, you got old, off the pastures for you. I got my elite licnese because I wanted to race against the best, to toe the line with them and messure myself against them, shoulder to shoulder. Sometime in the not so distant future I won't be able to do that any more, but I will still want to measure myself, but it will only be against myself. Saying its flawed because someone achieved something in her past is a flawed argument. Its not like she just won her bronze medal on the 4th and in now competing as an age-grouper in just over a week. That would be a flawed policy. Its age-group nationals and you race against the best in your age-group. If is still the best ,then that is who you should be racing. For those who are faster, or were born with better genetics, should we limit them in some way. Cameron Dye can average 360 watts for a Olympic tri and I can average only 300 and I weigth 15 pounds more than him, so we should limit his cycling, apply his break a little bit because its not fair that he is faster or stronger than me? The same would apply to an age-group race: Age Group athlete A should be given a time penalty because they swam in college and Athlete B did not. It just does not make sense. Competition is Competition. Its not like she is racing a bunch of 8 year olds and kick ass.

I've gotta slop at a healthier life. Because you exercise and have a lack of symptoms doesn't make you healthy. In reality the more we train the more we add stress to our joints, hense causing us to breakdown tissue faster. I would agree if it was a jog in the park but, this sport has nothing to do with easy. As well as all the synthetic crap we eat and drink to do it! That alone causes nutritional deficiencies.

I agree, they should race just with like! Olympians with Olympians?

Your point is made. Now, accept the fact that virtually everyone else disagrees with you.

As you were.

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Really, (as you were) do you think you look good being dis-respectful. I guess we should all keeps our eyes closed to anything that can be different or anothers question or opinion? Man, have I been practicing self control today!

Travis i am looking forword to getting my ass kicked in Burlington. If any expros happen to be there it will even be better. It will even be better if i pass them but they will have to get into a horrific accident or flat three times for that to happpen. And i dont want that to happpen.

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Please let loose on the well maintained self control. And while you're bemoaning the fact that everyone disagrees with you on ST here are a couple other options for you to try to find someone to agree with you.

http://www.beginnertriathlete.com/...forum-view.asp?fid=1
http://trifuel.com/

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I don't get how someone can want to artifically inflate their results by somehow excluding anyone else who they think is to fast for them. I've been at local "championship" races where all the top competition didn't show up and I definitely didn't feel as good about where I placed. You race whoever shows up but you still want the best competition out there you can get. If you don't you're just cheating yourself.

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Did he really say that :0)

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I often give advice whenracing/ training with people (mostly when asked first.) who then end up beating me. I am happy for them and try harder next the time.

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Haha, we have a whole different problem now. Reminded me of something funny I saw.... Not to bring politics into the tri forum though!

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I agree!

Glad you've given up on all that crazy stuff you were saying about ex pros not being able to race AG.

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Funny, was that Nationals? That's what happens when someone stops pedaling up a hill and the Marshal is next to you! LOL. @BMAnnersI guess you've had that happen too!

I think the original troll was a 4/10. However, the single minded obtuseness you have displayed merits a bump to 7/10.

Proceed.

John

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lMAO!
Drohc ,
I intended on replying this in next post and I do honestly apoligize but when i saw the statement it was just hanging out there. All Sters he did not say he was going to be drafting. Well .......... he did but drafting a letter lol.

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Ex pros, of any level should be allowed to race AG. And all AGs should think it's really really cool to race against them.
If you don't think so, you're in the sport for the wrong reasons. You don't love the sport, you love getting ridiculous hardware,
given to various AG categories, that are arbitrary. Frankly, it's laughable.

I used to play tennis very competitively and played a tournament last year again. If Boris Becker had signed up, I would have been
very happy.

If you want hardware, just gain weight and race clydesdale. But they'll complain! Hey that guy used to be skinny and now he isn't! What gives???
(or athena if you're a chick...)

Dude, I'm a triathlete. Give up? What races are you doing this year? I bet being an Elite athlete you may not like the idea surrounding my original question?

#1: drohc please explain this group of statements. Once again I have no idea what you are trying to say here.
#2: Given that drohc may not be able to explain them himself can anyone else explain them to me.
#3: Your reading comprehension sucks, as you've proven repeatedly, given that you could apparently not read my previous response regarding my racing status and wrote the above last sentance.

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I believe drohc has totally lost their mind. I'm proud to have been a part of it. My work here is now complete.

So, let's stir the pot a little more;

Choice A~ Make a separate category for Ex-Pros/Olympians and Elite class athletes.
Under 40 Elite AG
Over 40 Elite AG
Still take off at their AG times so you can still race with your HERO?

Choice B~ Unite all AG and race as one free for all!

Choice C~ Keep it the same and close our eyes?

What say you? Come on A, B or C

Remember, I know you all want a piece of me for asking, it's not personal, just a question.

I thought drohc was going further and further off the deep end with each post but then I went back and looked at his/her first few posts on this thread. Just as loony at the beginning.

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C.

I love you in that AT&T 'Texting While Driving' commercial.

Not mine.

Dave Scott - NO BRICK FOR YOU!!!!
[/driveby]

I think it's pretty awesome we get to share a racecourse with these amazing athletes. In what other sport can you do that??
I'd gladly get chicked (badly) by Susan Williams, any time.

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float , hammer , and jog

In case Dan doesn't get around to putting up a poll for this topic, I have decided to summarize the results, and I will update from time to time:

Those who don't think Susan Williams should be allowed to race AG: 1 (the OP)

Those who 't think Susan Williams should be allowed to race AG: Everyone else

My name is Zach Winchester, and I have formerly competed as an elite. I qualified for my elite license in 2009 and subsequently had a few decent races. I was excited about my elite career. After two years of racing I was battling some medical issues , so I hung up my cap. I had an intense knee surgery, two colonoscopies (with not-so-fun results), got married and started working full time. I would love to attempt a triathlon in my future, but given certain circumstances there is no way I could box like I used to. Are you telling me that I must race as an elite even though my old, crippled and out of shape ass might barely be able to cross the finish line? What else am I supposed to do? Never show up to the sport that meant so much to me for so many years?

In bike racing I've raced against a former world champion and Olympian. She beat me. I rode a personal best.

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clm
Nashville, TN
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B-/C+

I think you're really failing to realize that Susan Williams is an EX-pro. She hasn't raced professionally in SEVEN years!!!!!
After that kind of break it's up to her whether she wants to try to get back to the pro level or just have some fun racing age group cats.

If you want a skill based categorization system (like cycling) then maybe you would have a debate. But I think you are failing to see how self-centered your argument really is looking to most of us. There is not some huge amount of ex-pros who are just running the tables at USAT nats. You're singling out one. Frankly, it's stupid issues like this that are one of the major reasons that most of us former pros stop doing triathlon all together!

I enjoy a challenge. Let me try to interpret this post by drohc.



Apparently drohc feels that his level of participation (or ability?) in events consisting of swimming, biking, and running, qualifies him to call himself a triathlete. Also, he likes to preface this statement by calling you a "Dude."



I think drohc is saying that, because he thinks he is a triathlete, that your arguments regarding an unrelated issue (e.g., whether it is fair that SW competed at nationals in the AG category) are invalid. Thus, he wonders if you will concede that he is right on all points regarding this unrelated issue.



Drohc would like to know which races you will be competing in this year. Apparently, drohc feels that the races you plan to compete in have some bearing on the validity of any arguments you might raise regarding the unrelated issue mentioned above.



Drohc feels that he has not only raised an issue of profound significance to AG athletes, but to "Elite" athletes as well. The "idea surrounding [his] original question" appears to be that certain particularly fast individuals should not be able to compete in the AG category. This, of course, means that these particularly fast individuals would have to compete in the Elite category (if they competed at all). It follows that the Elite category would become more competitive and Elites would now have to not only defeat other Elites, but also these particularly fast individuals who would rather be competing in the AG category. Drohc feels that Elites would fear this new "policy" because they would have to contend with these particularly fast individuals who have been prevented from participating as AG athletes.

Note: In the above interpretation, I'm assuming drohc is a man. I could be wrong though.

I hope this clears up some of what Drohc is trying to say. Please let me know if you need further assistance with interpretations.

What's even more interesting is that a friend of drohc raced AG Nationals last year in the same AG as Susan Williams and was obviously beaten by her. Makes you wonder what this is really about.

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But by excluding SW, you're making it an UNFAIR playing field. Don't you see that?
You're also forcing out a great ambassador for the sport.

Actually, I did not get my butt kicked, but who cares.

I do not understand your questions. Do I still race today? Why not, I am racing against myself and my abilities. I cannot control others and who cares, this is a hobby for fun.

.

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Lions don't lose sleep worrying about the sheep

I have about 14 friends beaten by her last year. Like I mentioned earlier, there was alot of comments made after the awards ceremony last year that rasied the question. Should an Elite/Pro/Olympian race against AG'ers?

There are so many things wrong with this statement that I need to memorialize it.

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Over the past couple of decades, Lance Armstrong has had a much better support and development network than any professional triathlete I can think (something he earned BTW, good for him). When he started racing triathlon again, most pros were excited at the opportunity to test themselves against him. Racing is a competition, imposing rules limiting competition runs counter to the spirit of racing.

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Forcing out? Stop drinking the cool-aid, just re-arranging.

Even h20fun disagrees with the guy! I think this thread needs to be locked :)

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Again, not limiting just re-arranging. Lance was a Pro in Cycling and, races Pro!

That's your threshold for calling someone (assuming they are male) elite?

Weak.

Would this change in policy affect your training business?

And here is the crux of the whole issue. drohc has his panties in a bunch because he, or more likely his friend that was in SW's AG, didn't get to go to worlds. Too bad. You want to go to worlds then expect to beat the best in the country. Not get a handout or have it made easier for you. Wanting something like that is such the antithesis of competition its beyond me how anybody who would want to earn a spot to compete at a world championship could feel like they deserved to compete there after having excluded anybody they felt was "too fast" for them to beat.

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You obviously have not been in the Lavandar Room.
Didn't you know that ST IS the general consensus?

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You don't get that people at the top level who would be earning a worlds slot are interested in competition. Not just checking off a box that says they got to race worlds. You want to get there then earn it. You only want it re-arranged to make something easy that shouldn't be.

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This guy should have a talk with Adam Carolla....

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4GmsCdyGD00

This one makes my head spin.

• You have enough info for what? What info did you get here that you plan to put into your fabled letter to USAT? If you cite this shitstorm to USAT your credibility will be shot. Ditto if you don't clean up your spelling and use of punctuation.
• You're asking hard questions?
• "Look deep inside"??? Oh my.
• If someone wants to go to worlds then they'd better prove they belong there. It may be "easy" to get to Nationals but getting beyond that should be reserved for those that truly excel.

If you want me to READ something how bout you work on READING yourself. Go back and read my response where you asked whether I raced elite or AG and then come back and rewrite the above. I'll even make it easy for you. Its on page 3 of this thread. Post # 64.

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Put the shovel down dude.

So if you have a problem with Elites retiring from Elite racing and returning to the AG ranks - you must really have a problem with those of us AGers who don't take the step up to the Elite ranks.

your wife put you up to this didn't she?

Love it! Have him call my guy!

So, the current rule as USAT is concerned is anyone (whether they raced pro last weekend or not), can race as as AGer at any time and be eligible for prize money and/or awards? I didn't know that, but since I am not competing with the, I guess I never needed to know.

Nope, It's a hyp[othetical question for a possible policy change. Do what makes you proud of your accomplishments.

Wow, now I'm totally confused.

Are you a politician?

This thread keeps reminding me of this quote.

"Don't argue with idiots. They'll drag you down to their level then beat you with experience." - unknown

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I have deceptive speed.........I'm slower than I look!

But you're not looking for competition. You're looking for a diluted field where everyone can fit into their nice separate categories and there are awards for all!
Most people on here want to race the best, that's competition!

I outsplit Jen Gutierrez on the bike in a local sprint tri a few years ago. Might have beat her overall if it wasn't for that pesky swim and run. Getting chicked by former Olympians is awesome.

Susan came in top 6 OA last month in a local sprint here in CO.

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Formerly DrD

Yep, dah, I am out.

.

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Lions don't lose sleep worrying about the sheep

Come race in New Zealand then, we have a Gold medalist racing .... http://www.multisportaustralia.com.au/...;EId=2&AId=89692

Lucky for me he's actually 7 years older than me so he will always be 1 AG above me!


Oh and a Kona winner http://www.multisportaustralia.com.au/...;EId=2&AId=89889

and a Commonwealth Gold medalist http://www.multisportaustralia.com.au/...;EId=2&AId=90015

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Chicks are like Voltron, the more you can get, the better it is." -Tucker

No, I would not agree. When I was racing and training full time I was swimming three to four days a week, biking four days and running about 50+ miles a week. Now as husband, business owner, and maybe a father some day, I would not go back to doing what qualified me as an elite. I still want to toss my hat in the ring but it wouldn't be under the same preparation. I can name many gals and dudes like me that have started another chapter in their lives and who still love the sport of triathlon. You should offer your community, online or otherwise, more than your foolish train of thought and approach to our sport. Make it better by not posting illogical comments about me and every athlete of any caliber who has ever toed the line.

QFMFT!!

Well said, sir.

John

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Now that ST is fully on board with the same data I was looking at...I ask the question again

Those who don't think Susan Williams should be allowed to race AG: 1 (the OP)

Those who 't think Susan Williams should be allowed to race AG: Everyone else
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Update:

Those who don't think Susan Williams should be allowed to race AG: 1 (the OP)

Those who think Susan Williams should be allowed to race AG: Everyone else

Those who think the OP cheated by cutting the run course during a 70.3 earlier this year: 6-8

i was at age group nationals last year and in the same wave as susan w. when we were wating in the water to start, all the women around me,including me, thought it was cool that she was there in the age group wave. didn't see a problem. what's she supposed to do? give up the sport? no problem!

Updated your numbers. Just joined this post, but I'm definitely thinking dr.numbnuts cut the course

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Seems to be a hot topic. My comment/opinion is with most races this should be okay. However, the USAT Nationals is one of the few ways an aspiring AG who wants to make Elite status can qualify.....making the top 5. So my question is.....should this be okay.....taking away one of the top five spots for an AG who is trying to make Elite status? Or because she is former Elite, does her first place finish not count towards the qualifying and it goes down to top 6? Just wondering since this aspect hasn't been addressed yet.

I agree mostly with everything you say except for the statement that it's an "elite race already." If it were truly elite they wouldn't have qualification standards that are quite poor. Taking the top 10% from any USAT race or 33% from "special qualifiers" isn't exactly a high standard. Their primary objective is to make money and that means maintaining high participant levels. That definitely doesn't mean everyone there is elite nor do they have a chance in hell to achieve a top age group finish there or anywhere else. Instead they just want to say they were at "nationals" because it sounds like a big accomplishment.

I agree. It is far for an elite race even though very fast people do show up. You can do a super sprint with a 250 yard pool swim and qualify for the USAT Nat Olympic race.

It IS a big accomplishment for many people. I know many who have tried and tried to qualify, but no luck. It might easy for you and many on ST, but for the vast majority in our sport, it is NOT easy.

No different that trying to qualify for Boston. Many will say it is easy. But again, I know many who keep trying and do not make it.

Should Boston only let in the "elite" since why have all those "slow" folks running? Yes, the BOP and MOP in any race, no matter what the standards, pay for the FOP to race. Why does this seem so hard for so many to understand? No "slow" racers, NO RACE!!

And guess what, if us slow AGers did not pay our fees, there would be no US Olympic racers, since they get a free ride from AG money.

.

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Lions don't lose sleep worrying about the sheep

I completely agree. Compared to Kona and Vegas, the 2 long course "championship" races, I think the qualification standards for the 2 olympic races that could be considered "championship" races are much lower. Those 2 races being HyVee and AG Nats.

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You just reiterated some of my points. I never said it was easy to qualify for everyone. I said it was not an "elite race" for all involved racers. I can appreciate that someone tries hard to qualify for it. That's a goal and that's great. If they do eventually qualify that does not automatically make them or the race elite. You are certainly right that racers of all levels are necessary for any triathlon to survive though.

Sorry if I misread you post, but I know I would never say Nationals is an "elite" race. They have in the past had the "elite" race at the AG Nationals since I have watched it in the past, but Nationals is an
"Age Group" race, and it is for the "top" AG racers. (10% or 33%, still the top) Did someone else say it was something different that it always has been?

I just get so tired of some folks who were lucky with the right parents blow off so many who try so hard in life to excel. This is why I have always have more respect for the last place finishers. They are out in the heat way longer than the "elites". And they know they are last, but for these few, are willing to ignore the comments and looks from the few who give our sport a bad name.

.

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Lions don't lose sleep worrying about the sheep

I think your comparison to Boston was his point. Making the Boston cut and making the USAT Nat cut are not in the same ballpark.

Why, it is the same, IMO. One is time based, one is percentage based. Some think either are easy to meet, others find either impossible.

.

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Lions don't lose sleep worrying about the sheep

It seems that the OP deleted all posts.

Slowman has made it obvious that we can't discuss this further on ST and that is fair. I'm no longer posting about it on here. However give me a follow on twitter to stay updated on it. I don't appreciate being threatened.

Slowman, is it ok to leave this post up?

[moderator's note: i'll leave this part of your post up.]

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i'm bringing this one in for a [crash] landing. some of your posts got pulled. if any of your posts were among them, it's not necessarily an indication that i felt the post was inappropriate. but, over the long term, because all this stuff is archived and searchable, it's my best judgment that what remains of this thread is instructional, while omitting that salacious quality that causes you all to rubberneck.

thread closed.

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Dan Empfield
aka Slowman