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Re: word of a pro triathlete testing positive for THC [ericMPro] [ In reply to ]
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ericMPro wrote:
HardlyTrying wrote:
gmh39 wrote:
So she knowingly used a product with THC in it? Regardless of whether that should produce a positive test or not, that's doesn't sound very responsible/knowledgeable of the rules she needs to abide by.


Does this CBD cream help? Maybe a little.

Does it have THC? Definitely.

Why would you risk it?

Known risk for possible benefit.


Let's just assume she smoked pot.... she did nothing wrong. It's her business, and none of ours. Her life should go on as usual. This is pretty disappointing by WADA, USADA, and Trek.

I agree for the most part. HOWEVER, pot's still federally illegal. I'd love to be able to enjoy myself but can't afford to lose my job. Risk she was clearly willing to take. I think it's stupid that it's not legal, but I don't make the rules. You just have to abide by them.

It's tacky to blame it on CBD cream though. As normal as pot use is, just say you smoked pot/ate some edibles before a race.
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Re: word of a pro triathlete testing positive for THC [Toby] [ In reply to ]
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Toby wrote:

This all coming from THC makes the whole situation even more ridiculous.


Yes and no. It's not ridiculous in that the The List is clear, transparent, and unambiguous. As has been pretty well documented in this thread you have to work really hard at it in order to test positive. So I have little sympathy in that regard.

I agree that THC shouldn't be on The List at all. But the proper way would be for stakeholders involved (athletes, coaches, governing bodies, etc) to lobby WADA to get it removed. But I've seen no such effort (maybe there is one, and I haven't seen it).

The wrong way is to violate the rule and then complain about how ridiculous it is. There's more credibility when the lobbyists for a change aren't in the line of sights of a sanction.

If we can get Zombie Prefontaine to re-animate, I'd bet he'd be a fantastic zombie to lead a unified athlete union against THC being on The List.
Last edited by: trail: Sep 5, 19 17:09
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Re: word of a pro triathlete testing positive for THC [PJC] [ In reply to ]
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USADA says marijuana and cannabis are performance enhancing drugs. I have just heard this discussed in detail in a team forum. In addition to what the article reads, the argument is the use of marijuana/cannabis can increase the athletes pain threshold, allowing them to dig deeper or suffer more/longer.

Excerpt:
Quote:
Performance-enhancement: A common perception of marijuana is that its use impairs physical activity, including exercise performance. While the effects of marijuana can decrease hand-eye coordination and distort spatial perception, there are other effects that can be performance enhancing for some athletes and sport disciplines. Cannabis can cause muscle relaxation and reduce pain during post-workout recovery. It can also decrease anxiety and tension, resulting in better sport performance under pressure. In addition, cannabis can increase focus and risk-taking behaviors, allowing athletes to forget bad falls or previous trauma in sport, and push themselves past those fears in competition.


https://www.usada.org/...arijuana-faq/#mjlist
Last edited by: Trigirl357: Sep 5, 19 17:49
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Re: word of a pro triathlete testing positive for THC [Trigirl357] [ In reply to ]
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Trigirl357 wrote:
USADA says marijuana and cannabis are performance enhancing drugs. I have just heard this discussed in detail in a team forum. In addition to what the article reads, the argument is the use of marijuana/cannabis can increase the athletes pain threshold, allowing them to dig deeper or suffer more/longer.

Excerpt:
Quote:
Performance-enhancement: A common perception of marijuana is that its use impairs physical activity, including exercise performance. While the effects of marijuana can decrease hand-eye coordination and distort spatial perception, there are other effects that can be performance enhancing for some athletes and sport disciplines. Cannabis can cause muscle relaxation and reduce pain during post-workout recovery. It can also decrease anxiety and tension, resulting in better sport performance under pressure. In addition, cannabis can increase focus and risk-taking behaviors, allowing athletes to forget bad falls or previous trauma in sport, and push themselves past those fears in competition.


https://www.usada.org/...arijuana-faq/#mjlist

USADA damages their credibility by claiming that.

E.g. this recent study, "Cannabis and the Health and Performance of the Elite Athlete" concludes that, "There is no evidence for cannabis use as a performance-enhancing drug."

This other recent meta-study concluded that, "Because the number and quality of studies was low, the effects of marijuana on athletic performance remain unclear." (and the evidence in favor was extremely weak).

The bit about "forgetting bad falls" is pure silliness.
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Re: word of a pro triathlete testing positive for THC [Thomas Gerlach] [ In reply to ]
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Thomas Gerlach wrote:
You could also look at it is an opportunity to do something else and move on. Continuing to be a professional triathlete as a viable replacement career is less and less likely to work.

^That's one of the first things I thought. Often times an ending is a hidden blessing. I can hardly believe that anyone can make money as a pro triathlete, save a precious few at the very top.

One of the other things I thought was that 20 years from now, we're going to be laughing that this situation was even a blip on the radar. Might as well penalize the person who has a couple beers the night before a race to calm their nerves. There's a trace amount of intoxicant in their system during the race! ;O

Lauren should parlay this into a career in the CBD business. Seriously... it'd be a perfect move.
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Re: word of a pro triathlete testing positive for THC [tilburs] [ In reply to ]
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tilburs wrote:
convicted doper

Until this thread, I never knew that I am liable to be convicted for doping by USADA. Another reason not to do this sport. I had no idea I was cheating by hitting a vape every night before bed.

Triathlon: where thyroid medication that ruins your health and body is legal -- and can be administered by the most prominent of triathlon coaches -- while one of the other most prominent triathlon coaches slams a "professional" athlete on a public forum for hitting a jay.

I just can't. Excuse me while I go blaze my face off.
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Re: word of a pro triathlete testing positive for THC [trail] [ In reply to ]
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The most common sense point in this thread I think.

So following this logic we aren’t bound by all the rules just the rules we want to have apply to us. Not the ones we think are stupid. Does that work? Eh I’d argue not for long.

I don’t have any interest in THC or CBD. Do I get a “credit” for a rule to not apply to me?

Wait - That’s actually a kinda fun idea/twist to competition. We all declare a set number of rules we’re not going to be bound to. Everyone gets same number of “passes” and needs to be declared by a certain date.

I think I’d take drafting, motor and the disc wheel off that faster guy next to me... (hope he chooses to steal someone else’s wheel so he can race). those are the rules I want applied to me. I’ll stick to no EPO or HGH because we’ll duh that’s obviously bad and a “good” rule that should be followed.

And I’ll just add I know I am very far from perfect and no way think I haven’t broken a rule in my life whether caught or not but I don’t think that I just get to do what I want without the rules applying equally to me as everyone else who has agreed beforehand what the rules are.

But seriously think of the strategy of what I’m proposing. I might be onto something. Maybe refine it to a list of rules to pick from just to keep it somewhat contained.
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Re: word of a pro triathlete testing positive for THC [Trigirl357] [ In reply to ]
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Trigirl357 wrote:
USADA says marijuana and cannabis are performance enhancing drugs. I have just heard this discussed in detail in a team forum. In addition to what the article reads, the argument is the use of marijuana/cannabis can increase the athletes pain threshold, allowing them to dig deeper or suffer more/longer.

Excerpt:
Quote:
Performance-enhancement: A common perception of marijuana is that its use impairs physical activity, including exercise performance. While the effects of marijuana can decrease hand-eye coordination and distort spatial perception, there are other effects that can be performance enhancing for some athletes and sport disciplines. Cannabis can cause muscle relaxation and reduce pain during post-workout recovery. It can also decrease anxiety and tension, resulting in better sport performance under pressure. In addition, cannabis can increase focus and risk-taking behaviors, allowing athletes to forget bad falls or previous trauma in sport, and push themselves past those fears in competition.


https://www.usada.org/...arijuana-faq/#mjlist

I guess you never used it. would you drink alcohol to enhance performance? if anything this depresses the nervous system and slows you down.

I am wondering if this is all a conspiracy with the popularity of CBD and triathlon needing some media attention.
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Re: word of a pro triathlete testing positive for THC [trailerhouse] [ In reply to ]
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trailerhouse wrote:
It's Lauren Goss. She claims she was using a CBD cream to treat an ankle injury.
Seems like an awful amount of THC in the system for a cream.

https://www.instagram.com/...?igshid=9pio8vbxb64r

Lauren should have said exactly this:



But yet her response was basically this:



See the difference?
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Re: word of a pro triathlete testing positive for THC [synthetic] [ In reply to ]
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MANY years ago, after a margarita or three too many, I got the bright idea to knock out my scheduled 5k training run. I was surprised by how little discomfort I felt...I was also disturbed by how disoriented I felt...and both of these were in the context of an overall time on a familiar course that was within the noise of my averages at the time. N=1.

Wouldn't do it again.

Carl Matson
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Re: word of a pro triathlete testing positive for THC [Carl] [ In reply to ]
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I had one of my best bike training sessions whilst really hungover, also got a strava KOM descent whilst mildly intoxicated (4 beers at lunch whilst on holiday). Running is never nice hungover though...
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Re: word of a pro triathlete testing positive for THC [gregk] [ In reply to ]
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gregk wrote:
Thomas Gerlach wrote:
You could also look at it is an opportunity to do something else and move on. Continuing to be a professional triathlete as a viable replacement career is less and less likely to work.


^That's one of the first things I thought. Often times an ending is a hidden blessing. I can hardly believe that anyone can make money as a pro triathlete, save a precious few at the very top.

One of the other things I thought was that 20 years from now, we're going to be laughing that this situation was even a blip on the radar. Might as well penalize the person who has a couple beers the night before a race to calm their nerves. There's a trace amount of intoxicant in their system during the race! ;O

Lauren should parlay this into a career in the CBD business. Seriously... it'd be a perfect move.

Could bring new meaning to Michael Lovato's favorite Ironman run segment commentary... "smoke em if you got them em"


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Re: word of a pro triathlete testing positive for THC [fulla] [ In reply to ]
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fulla wrote:
I had one of my best bike training sessions whilst really hungover, also got a strava KOM descent whilst mildly intoxicated (4 beers at lunch whilst on holiday). Running is never nice hungover though...
.
A lot of us used to party pretty hard while training and racing back in the day.I was pretty drunk the night after day two of my first Ultraman back in 1994.Helped take a lot of the pain I was feeling at the time away and I slept like a rock.Woke up the next day feeling groggy but fine and ended up winning the damned thing.

I know of a few Ultra types who have a few drinks to put them to sleep during stage race type events
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Re: word of a pro triathlete testing positive for THC [PJC] [ In reply to ]
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This thread made me look up what changes might be afoot in The Code. And there are lots of changes.

The draft of the 2021 Code is there. The summary of major changes is here. Some stakeholder commentary is here.

It looks like there's likely to be a new category of substances called Substances of Abuse. This, so far, includes "cannabinoids." If people get popped for this and there's no evidence it was in-competition usage, then they get a flat 3-month c̶o̶n̶v̶i̶c̶t̶i̶o̶n̶ sanction with less due process for reduction. But a proposed automatic reduction to 1-month if an approved rehab program is entered. The summary is on point, "Substantial resources are being spent arguing in hearings over the appropriate length of sanction in Substances of Abuse cases. These resources could be better spent on anti-doping
investigations or anti- doping rule violations which really do affect the level playing field of sport."

So that's a full-up admission that we're not really talking about performance-enhancement, and that these cases are pulling resources from "righteous busts."

But the rule is still undergoing considerable debate:



Quote:

There was almost universal support behind the creation of a new Article providing
special treatment for Substances of Abuse. However, there was a great deal of stakeholder debate
over exactly what that Article should say. For example, some stakeholders thought that the flat
three-month Ineligibility period was too short, while others thought it was too long. The drafting
team was struck by the comment of one stakeholder to the effect that, “whatever you do, don’t let
disagreement over the details cause you to eliminate this very valuable Article.” In the end, the
drafting team left the original Substances of Abuse Article largely intact, but added one additional
provision, Article 10.2.4.2, which provides that where the Athlete can establish that In-Competition
Use of a Substance Abuse was unrelated to sport performance then the Use shall not be
considered “intentional” for purposes of the longer sanctions for Intentional Use provided in Article




Some of the published stakeholder commentary was interesting.

Here's the French Minister of Anti-Doping:

FrenchPartyDude wrote:

Nonetheless, if the ingestion is out of competition and is unrelated to sport performance, then we can wonder if such a use enhanced this sport performance. If this cannot be proved, then it is not related to sport and to doping, and then antidoping law shouldn’t deal with these cases. Antidoping law shouldn’t be like moral and doesn’t have to deal with cases that are not related to sport and sport performance. It is the role of national criminal law to prohibit or not the use of recreational drugs unrelated to sport. Moreover, this new category is not clear: is it a new category beside specified and non-specified substances? Are these substances prohibited in competition only or in and out of competition? If they are prohibited only in competition, then why sanctioning the residual presence of the substance that has been used out of competition and is unrelated to sport performance? On the contrary, if the substances of abuse are prohibited in and out of competition, then some substances like cannabinoids that are not prohibited out of competition at the present time will be with this new provision; then this provision can be seen as more severe than the current law. Furthermore, we wonder whether a single period of ineligibility is relevant according to the classification of drugs themselves (for example between hard drugs and soft drugs). Can the recreational use of hard drug like cocaine be punished with the same period of ineligibility than the use of soft drug like marijuana, when this specific use of marijuana is not forbidden by criminal law in some states?



Meanwhile the Bulgarian takes the opposite tack:

BulgarianBuzzkill wrote:

However, we see a contradiction between the athletes’ health as a priority of the Code and the obvious indulgence towards the use of prohibited substances In-Competition, such as narcotics, stimulants and cannabinoids. These substances cause proven and undeniable health damage and their use, possession and trafficking qualify as criminal offenses according to the Criminal Codes of most European countries. Their use may lead not only to addiction but also to physical and mental health damage. Therefore, Bulgaria
believes their use is not related to medical evidence and should not have threshold concentrations. According to 2017 data from the World Anti-Doping Agency the number of positive cocaine samples in the world is 69. According to 2018 data from the Bulgarian Anti-Doping Centre in 5 out of the 16 positive doping cases the athletes were tested positive for amphetamine and cocaine. We believe that the reported data is more than worrying and requires enhanced countermeasures. We support the prohibition of these classes of substances at any time, as well as believe that the sanctions on such abuses should not be reduced. It should be kept in mind that athletes are often idols and role models for young people and even the minimal tolerance of drug use, stimulants and cannabinoids poses a risk to the health of society as a whole. Bulgaria strongly believe that sport is a social phenomenon and that the problem of using drugs by athletes can not be seen as a "social problem" outside of the sport.


Canada seems angling towards lighter treatment, but didn't mention weed specifically. That dude was mostly asking, "What business do we have deciding who needs "rehab" and who doesn't?"

Crickets from the USA, as far as I can tell, in this round.

So people who really strongly believe the sanction is unethical should probably at least make their opinion known to their representatives. If Tygart is going "holy roller" on this (as I've read rumors he tends to do), then he should at least know he's doing so under some dissent from his "constituents."
Last edited by: trail: Sep 6, 19 8:08
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Re: word of a pro triathlete testing positive for THC [trail] [ In reply to ]
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(not replying to Trail in particular, just general comment)

As a chemist, I am curious what the label claim of THC in the CBD cream is.

As a chemist, I am curious what amount of THC was actually found in the cream.

Assuming a uniform weight of cream per area applied, one would have a huge variance in dosage depending on how big of an area you apply the stuff. Putting it on the back of your hand for knuckle arthritis, and covering your entire thigh for soreness - could be a 50 x or more difference in dosage.

So unless the cream contained 10,000 x label claim or something crazy like that.....
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Re: word of a pro triathlete testing positive for THC [TeamBarenaked] [ In reply to ]
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All I want to know is how can I get my hands on some of that cream.
TeamBarenaked wrote:

So unless the cream contained 10,000 x label claim or something crazy like that.....

What's your CdA?
Last edited by: trailerhouse: Sep 6, 19 8:28
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Re: word of a pro triathlete testing positive for THC [trail] [ In reply to ]
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trail wrote:
Trigirl357 wrote:
USADA says marijuana and cannabis are performance enhancing drugs..

Excerpt:
Quote:
Performance-enhancement: A common perception of marijuana is that its use impairs physical activity, including exercise performance. While the effects of marijuana can decrease hand-eye coordination and distort spatial perception, there are other effects that can be performance enhancing for some athletes and sport disciplines. Cannabis can cause muscle relaxation and reduce pain during post-workout recovery. It can also decrease anxiety and tension, resulting in better sport performance under pressure. In addition, cannabis can increase focus and risk-taking behaviors, allowing athletes to forget bad falls or previous trauma in sport, and push themselves past those fears in competition.


https://www.usada.org/...arijuana-faq/#mjlist


USADA damages their credibility by claiming that.

E.g. this recent study, "Cannabis and the Health and Performance of the Elite Athlete" concludes that, "There is no evidence for cannabis use as a performance-enhancing drug."


thanks trigirl357 for posting that, interesting.


from the study,
"Despite evidence that recreational cannabis use may acutely impair psychomotor skills and cognitive function, there is a perception among some athletes that cannabis use may have beneficial effects. The literature is scant, and the illegal or prohibited status of cannabis worldwide has limited our ability to generate high-quality data on the patterns and prevalence of cannabis use among elite athletes."


From a cited study of weed use by athletes, https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/27629700/
"Surprisingly, a common rationale for use appears to be to enhance sports performance."


The answer to 'is weed a PED' is clearly, 'we don't know'. That's because it's been illegal to study weed in the US and illegal to use it most anywhere.
Some athletes clearly do use it as PED.


The potential for harm is not zero.


1. https://www.nybooks.com/...ijuana-high-and-low/
"What is clear is that cannabis impairs cognition and psychomotor responses. Numerous studies show that it decreases a person’s reaction time and impairs his or her attention, concentration, short-term memory, and assessment of risks. These changes in psychomotor performance can last longer than the feeling of being high. Trials with licensed pilots found that marijuana impaired performance on a flight simulator for up to twenty-four hours.13 Further, most of the pilots were unaware that their performance was still impaired a day later. Several studies demonstrate associations between cannabis and collisions: drivers who use it are estimated to be some two to seven times more likely to be responsible for accidents compared to drivers not using drugs or alcohol."


I don't want to be racing a bike next to a stoner..


2. respiratory disease and psychosis, http://www.nationalacademies.org/...nd-cannabinoids.aspx
"There is substantial evidence of a statistical association between
long-term cannabis smoking and worse respiratory symptoms and
more frequent chronic bronchitis episodes.
There is substantial evidence of a statistical association between cannabis
use and the development of schizophrenia or other psychoses, with the
highest risk among the most frequent users. "


So I'm happy to keep weed on the banned list for competition. For recreational use it's fine, probably less harmful than alcohol, and most of us need something to survive the day.


"reality's a lovely place, but I wouldn't want to live there" - Owl City
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Re: word of a pro triathlete testing positive for THC [TeamBarenaked] [ In reply to ]
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I guess my point is

even if you calculate "based on the label claim, you can apply x-number of grams of the product, x-number of times per day and you will be ok" - it's still playing with fire.

Have you determined how quickly your body will metabolize that active ingredient? Could be different for person A and person B. Are you using an accurate dispensing method (an appropriate balance, etc)? And even with all that, would you not err on the side of caution and dial it back in case something in your calculation/procedure is awry?

This is why I ask - was the cream actually 10,000+ times label claim?
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Re: word of a pro triathlete testing positive for THC [Thomas Gerlach] [ In reply to ]
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Generally agree with what Thomas writes. I just have to feel that most pro's (outside of pointy end making real $'s) would do better to retire earlier rather than later and have more time to establish themselves in their next career. Lauren is pretty close to the pointy end though, which maybe makes this a bit different. If she wants to come back next year she absolutely could. Long term I don't think this will likely affect sponsors decisions much at all, especially if she keeps on winning! Obviously losing Trek (if that's the case) will be a temporary financial setback, but as Thomas says, plenty of pro's who manage to compete without a big $ sponsor anyway. Good luck on your journey whatever you choose Lauren! Think the vast majority of fans won't care a flying fig about whether you did a bit of weed or not.

Thomas Gerlach wrote:
mbwallis wrote:
It just sucks for Lauren.


That is one way to look at it. You could also look at it is an opportunity to do something else and move on. Continuing to be a professional triathlete as a viable replacement career is less and less likely to work. Sure it will be blackmark/whitemark/brownmark on her record to some. It is what it is. I know looking forward that Lauren will likely be fine and will land on her feet. I got off the phone with another long-time pro earlier today. Much older than me and I think he would have liked to get out of triathlon much much sooner.

And, while it is wonderful to turn a hobby into a job the reality is that sometimes that job really starts to feel like a job. Probably the biggest moment of respect for Lionel I had on paper was during his interview on TRS where he said he would walk away if he ~"no longer loved to swim, bike, and run". He was obviously saying knowing that someday that is how he could feel. To have that sort of forward vision is actually quite impressive. Obviously, it is easy to say that on paper but sometimes harder in practice to commit to. I see amongst age-groupers too and it isn't their job to compete.

So while it may be a little bump in the road, I feel confident that it could be the best thing to happen to her. And six-months is six-months. It is the end of the season anyway. Everybody needs time to cope and cool-off. If she really wants to come back to triathlon there is nothing stopping her. The majority of professional triathletes out there do this and they aren't making anything and don't have those contracts in the first place. They do it only for the love of the sport and don't have delusions of grandeur. And who knows, maybe the six-months hiatus will even be the emotional or physical disconnect she needs to reach another level to come back. I don't think I am stating anything that hasn't been shared by her on Insta in the past, maybe it is just me constantly reading between the lines, but I think this break will be positive for her.
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Re: word of a pro triathlete testing positive for THC [kileyay] [ In reply to ]
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kileyay wrote:
I had no idea I was cheating by hitting a vape every night before bed.

are you vaping marijuana ?
probably not a good idea, given that people are dying from that..
https://www.nytimes.com/...ping-death-lung.html

seems it's not the MJ but the oils in the illegal unregulated vape cartridges, that is causing the deaths and illness. Fire up the blunt, don't vape..
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Re: word of a pro triathlete testing positive for THC [doug in co] [ In reply to ]
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I see the slowtwitch mods must be Goss fans because there is a lot of post deletion going on
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Re: word of a pro triathlete testing positive for THC [Tucsontriguy] [ In reply to ]
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I see the slowtwitch mods must be Goss fans because there is a lot of post deletion going on //

Really? There is not enough red meat left in the thread for you? When people begin to act like idiots, well worst than idiots, those posts are gone. The rest of us get to keep being idiots, just not idiots on steroids.. (-;
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Re: word of a pro triathlete testing positive for THC [Tucsontriguy] [ In reply to ]
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He rightfully deleted the post from the guy who just joined ST that basically identified an unrelated athlete (not LG) as a pothead, and the responses to that post.
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Re: word of a pro triathlete testing positive for THC [trail] [ In reply to ]
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Since Triathlon's in competition window is extremely narrow...and the level of that one needs to pop...we've already kind of covered that she'd have had to have hot boxed the her shower right before checking in to a race or be a habitual user. And the idea that Marijuana isn't addictive is bollocks and it has psychoactive properties. The studies are used as the rationale seem to point towards enhanced recovery and ability to change the pain threshold of the athlete which is Performance Enhancing.

I'm not a big drinker, in fact I tend to collect stuff and rarely drink stuff. But I'm quite unsure what Alcohol does to actually enhance recover (it doesn't, look at the studies, it inhibits). It can alter the state of mind. Don't know what it does for pain threshold.

Knowing how effective nicotine is as a stimulant I'm surprised it is not banned. Someone could slap a patch on before a race and be wired.

Haven't seen the link posted here, but this was a USADA executed test with the Escape Alcatraz Triathlon. https://www.usada.org/...pts-doping-sanction/

And, like with anyone who claims it was their supplement that made them pop, is she going to sue the manufacturer?

Washed up footy player turned Triathlete.
Last edited by: TheStroBro: Sep 6, 19 12:11
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Re: word of a pro triathlete testing positive for THC [TeamBarenaked] [ In reply to ]
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Quote:
Putting it on the back of your hand for knuckle arthritis,

It works for this???? What about ankle arthritis? If it will work, I'm ordering today.

clm
Nashville, TN
https://twitter.com/ironclm | http://ironclm.typepad.com
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