..and yet I have an event this weekend where I could live large for a day or so in a pain free,Tramadol induced haze and WADA would say that is okay. I don't understand their logic.

If this person was using CBD oil, certain brands have THC. Floyd's of Leadville has THC. If you use something like IKOR (who actually sponsors athletes), it is THC free. I do not know about other brands, only these two, because of their wide availability in my area as the major players sold. Never did THC / pot but seems those I've seen who have, makes them sorta a little chill (you don't want too chill during a race)...

Could this happen just by living in Boulder?! :)

Depends on who you hang out with but yes.

No. Now maybe you intended to ask that in pink but I’ll provide some more info just in case you were serious or if anyone else is interested.

What most people don’t understand is that the testing level for THC is so crazy high 150 ng/ml) that for most people it’s ridiculously hard to test positive unless you’re a seriously committed and habitual user.

By way of comparison most employment based testing (at least in the US) is done at a level of 50 ng/ml (some as low as 15). Most people will still test positive via a urine sample at this level for up to 72 hours, longer with a blood or hair test. Also, except for the rarest of circumstances, it’s been shown over and over again that it’s next to impossible to fail a drug test at the 50 ng/ml level. Think of intentionally hot boxing in a small confined space with exceptionally poor ventilation and immediately testing. Even in those circumstances it’s been shown that delaying the testing by just a few minutes brings the THC detectable levels well below a positive threshold.

Idk, my wife could use some chill in the hours leading up to the race...

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808 > NYC > PDX > YVR
2024 Races: Taupo

This may be for a different post but just a quick primer:
- CBD Isolate : CBD only
- Broad Spectrum CBD : CBD plus other cannabinoids but NOT THC
- Full Spectrum: CBD plus cannabinoids plus THC

And full spectrum should be at 0.3% THC

In cycling my understanding is that THC is banned in competition only, and that's why the threshold is quite high (pun unintended). Still, a few have managed...

The problem is.... USADA has banned it in competition, but the 150 level is really doesn't determine if someone is getting an affect from it during the event.
If you smoke everyday, your tolerance will go up and your blood levels will hover around 300-500 24 hours after use. If you eat thc, your blood levels will often be even higher. The only safe way to keep the levels below 150 is to stop about week out of a race if you are a regular user.
If they really want it banned solely in competition they need to develop a better method to determine if a given blood level is actually benefiting someone, the test right now is stupid and ineffective. Whether someone is a "habitual" user shouldn't matter, we're trying to determine if they have an effective dose in their system at the time of competition. Right now we're likely just punishing people because they use it a lot outside of competition.

Few things jump out at me here:
1: why thc/cbd are banned substances. A safer and less harmful alternative to other similar drugs. ibuprofen, tramadol. Etc. which are legal.
2: it’s no more of a performance enhancing drug than those above. So it being banned seems Draconian- and behind current times.
3: if thc/cbd are not banned substances per-se, but illegal in competition- hence the higher threshold. I have serious concerns about the ability of tests to be accurate. Thc is one of the few substances that’s metabolized and stored within fat cells. So unlike cocaine- and a host of other recreational drugs which clear the blood steam in 72 hours- thc can stay in your system for over 30 days. I doubt, for that reason- that it’s just habitual users who could test positive. Yes- the threshold is high. But when you consider, even habitual use, out of competition could get you flagged- it stands to reason that the position makes little sense. You could use THC out of competition and weeks later still test positive. I would guess that this is exacerbated by the fact that tests are done- (usually ) post race. When an athlete is dehydrated and the chances of concentrations being abnormal.
4: not a great look for triathlon, or usada / WADA when American football is ahead of them on thc/cbd use. I’m trying to imagine a pro football player being banned for 3-6 months for marijuana.....simply- my assumption is whoever this is: will be dropped by sponsors, ( if they have them) and can’t work for 3-6 months. Essentially ending , if not railroading their career. This is 2019. It’s time for change.

I agree with both of your concerns, but is there a way to test for active day-of use? I heard years ago about a saliva test, but never heard more about it.

it’s no more of a performance enhancing drug than those above.//

Sure it is, just depends on the sport. Shooting/biathlon/archery or any other sport where you have to calm yourself. Some of these try and shoot between heartbeats to keep the movement down, so certainly relaxing the body would be an enhancement.


But that is the rub, not all athletes are going to benefit, and many sports it would be a disadvantage to be stoned, a performance dehancer. May have to carve out some sport exceptions for some of the drugs on the list?

I agree in general, but feel there are valid reasons to punish in-competition THC use in sports like cycling where there are safety concerns associated the effects.

I agree in general, but feel there are valid reasons to punish in-competition THC use in sports like cycling where there are safety concerns associated the effects.//

You state this like it is a real thing. I actually believe it would be opposite. I have been in the middle of some pretty scary and crazy criterium packs, and would have been a lot better off if I had something to take that edge off. And of course if you are in the TT, not sure how being relaxed just a scootch, wouldn't help you corner just a bit better, thus making it actually safer in both instances..I dont think there is a THC problem in cycling, best to keep resources where there are actual huge problems..But Curling, pop those bastards with a roach in their pockets..(-;

I think that it's actually a full spectrum versus isolate issue. If you are using the isolate of any brand, it should not have THC.

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Janyne

There is a less than zero chance this is from a CBD product. The limit is too damn high for that to be the explanation.

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Editor-in-Chief, Slowtwitch.com | Twitter

my least favourite kind of tweet. either shit or get off the pot, brad.

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____________________________________
https://lshtm.academia.edu/MikeCallaghan

http://howtobeswiss.blogspot.ch/

Worth keeping in mind that cbd is non-active with out thc. So thc free products simply don’t work and are a marketing ploy.

i went round and round with travis tygart when i interviewed him about this. why is this on the banned list for triathlon? safety reasons. okay. is your mandate PEDs or also drugs that present a safety concern? if the latter then why limit this to THC? the discussion devolved from there. it was my sense at the time that WADA got itself into the morality business, and that's the only reason THC is on the banned list.

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Dan Empfield
aka Slowman

Alternative????? Ibuprofen is an anti-inflammatory.....THC doesn't to that. Tramadol is a pain killer....THC may do that but not as a direct action. Both are not even close to THC.

My point is that THC / CBD are no greater a performance enhancer than any other legalized substances, which are probably More harmful to athletes. Also: Thc/cbd does have anti-inflammatory compounds. It’s been rolled out as a natural and more healthy alternative to the substances named above. Whether or not that’s true, in efficacy, I know not- but I don’t think anyone is dying cbd gives an unfair advantage in endurance sports- so my point remains the same. Why is a substance banned in competition- that you can’t actually tell if it was used in competition. And further more- why is it even a banned substance.

I don't care about marijuana use in triathlon, but holding the NFL's drug policy up as one to follow is laughable. They get what, 4 weeks for anabolic steroids? All those guys are that big and fast on bread, water and hard work. The league is a huge advertisement for PED use.

To be fair if they tested me after a race i'd glow like a nuclear reactor (do they glow? just assume they do...a LOT). I've yet to get high and run/train as my body really just isn't in my control (not where i'm comfortable with exertion in that state), as i'm afraid i'll hurt myself. So for now I just use for a giggle and good night's sleep.

Pretty much the opposite of what I keep reading. Source?

WADA may say that it is okay but the UCI begs to differ. Since the start of 2019, if you race bicycles under the UCI or USAC, Tramadol is illegal in competition.

Same, no way in hell I could see any pro going into a race high as a kite and squandering that opportunity to perform at his best. Now, I can def see some pros taking an edible after a race and being in straight up double chill mode.

I think The Don for sure is a pot head (:

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Use this link to save $5 off your USAT membership renewal:
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Football players get a one year suspension after the third failed test. First time puts them in the drug program, 2nd time is 4 games.

Maybe if they have lots of practice or are "a pro" at taking it and performing. I have friends that get BAAAAAAKED and then go play all sorts of sports (big time runners and skiers), and they perform at a high level (pun intended). But I just can't, and to me it isn't worth the risk of being impaired during the event.

Also, The Don is DEFINITELY...(I have no clue really, but come on...that guy...if he isn't, he is in uber chill mode naturally and suuuuper smiley). lol

False. https://www.wired.com/...ce-entourage-effect/

Only partially true. They have full spectrum and isolate.

If you walked by the Norlin Quad (CU Campus) on 4/20, you'd be flying high before making it half way across the grass.

That's what they say. Anything "Floyd" says or is pushing is suspect. Not pink.

It may or may not...depends if you're right or not. And...are you a stalker?

Per the 2018 Farm Bill, a "full spectrum" CBD product has to be less than .3% THC. 3rd party labs test for purity of many Floyd's products is on their site https://floydsofleadville.com/coa-results/

This ^^^

You'd be very hard pressed to find someone who "accidentally" popped positive for THC. And CBD, even the ones with THC in them, aren't going to do it either.

CHALLENGE ACCEPTED!!!!!!

Second hand smoke ;) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ross_Rebagliati

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Kiwami NA Racing Team

So basically you're saying someone hot-boxed themselves in the doping-control tent and then pee'd in a cup?! I know some dopers are stupid, but that would take the biscuit!

Alternatively, I think you might be incorrect in your assertions.

The logic is that there is no medical use for THC by mainstream medical science outside of treatment for two rare types of epilepsy. Otherwise medical use is "off label" as a general aid in pain relief or "relaxation."

Tramadol, on the other hand, is a commonly prescribed drug with specific uses.

WADA is much quicker to add substances to their list when they're not going to interfere with standard therapeutic medical treatments.

And for THC, I'm totally fine if it's taken off the list. I'm just describing the logic used.

Also Tramadol (along with codeine and hydrocodone) are on the Monitoring List. So they could be added to the list. And I know you're just dramatizing the debate, but I'd bet money no one at WADA would tell you that competing on Tramadol is "okay."

everything I wanted to know about edilbles but was too afraid to ask, was answered by Joe Rogan...

https://ifunny.co/...-la-u-gh-i-4CyGn4Hb6

Who wants to bet that the positive test came on April 21, 2019?

I know exactly who the athlete is and I’m sure it’ll shock a fair amount of people.
I am also so damn angry that this is even an issue in 2019. I think we all know that THC/other cannabinoids should NOT be on the banned list.
I’m hoping that this shitty case can bring some much needed change.

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New Training/Racing Log - http://www.earthdaykid.com/blog --- Old Training/Racing Log - http://colinlaughery.blogspot.com

I know exactly who the athlete is and I’m sure it’ll shock a fair amount of people. //

Smoking pot, I dont think anyone is going to be shocked. As shocked as if you told me so and so drank a bunch of beers. Well maybe I would be shocked it they were Mormon, nah....

https://paindr.com/...juana-urine-testing/

This is actually a pretty legitmate breakdown of the testing levels and how long THC stays in your system and how its broken down in your body. Personal experience corroborates with this. This dude had to have literally smoked up or been a CHRONIC chronic user for a long as time and not given a fuck.

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Use this link to save $5 off your USAT membership renewal:
https://membership.usatriathlon.org/...A2-BAD7-6137B629D9B7

How do so many people know before it's announced? And why do people keep bragging that they know?

Either name them or let it play out

Ha!

I am glad to see more of this opinion. If this was 10 years ago, I think there would be a lot different of an outlook on the use of marijuana. It’s nice to see how far we’ve come.

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New Training/Racing Log - http://www.earthdaykid.com/blog --- Old Training/Racing Log - http://colinlaughery.blogspot.com

The rules surrounding marijuana are stupid. Hopefully there is some reform. I don't think smoking anything is good for you, but no one will tell me THC is worse than alcohol many other substances (tramadol, cigs, etc.)

The rules surrounding marijuana are stupid. Hopefully there is some reform. //

I agree, for triathlon. But there is a rule in place, everyone knows it, so whoever it is has most of the responsibility for this bust. I remember when Caffeine was banned, I sure as hell dialed back my coffee consumption so as not to even be close to any positives. And you also have to factor in a severely dehydrated body if you are tested post race, or even out of competition on a super hard, and long training day. That can really skew the amounts that show up, and not in ones favor...

I agree. I know a fair amount of endurance athletes who take THC, and none do so by smoking it.

Absolutely agree with your point Monty. Stupid and outdated or not, the rule is in place and it should have been a factor of consideration for whoever was popped.

I found out recently that THC can be metabolized differently from person to person. Depending how well you metabolize it, it's presence in your body will be lower or much higher. So, two people could ingest an equal amount of THC but have drastically different test values.

I don't think most people know this. And the only way to find out, is to get a test done. If you are a poor metabolizer, you need to adjust your habits approaching races. I'm not sure that the rules account for this either, which makes this whole case really interesting.

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Group Eleven – Websites for Athletes / mikael.racing / @mstaer

THC should definitely be on the list. It is a perfect addition in fact. The purpose of drug testing is not to stop doping. The purpose is to scam the public into believing something is being done and to keep media contracts and government handouts flowing into sports. Testing for recreational drugs and ghetto PEDs that have no effect on performance is ideal. Their inclusion guarantees people will be caught because use will be unintentional, accidental, or ignorant. The anti-doping agencies use the petty nature of the offense to demonstrate their hard line on drugs, the athletes get sympathy for being sanctioned for something that obviously had no performance effect, the sports use the lack of busts for serious drugs and occasional sanctions for useless products to claim the sport is largely clean, and the gullible public is satisfied. Everyone wins. Well, except for the poor bastard caught for THC, but no has much sympathy for potheads who cannot even lay off the weed for a few days before competition.

This makes absolutely no sense except for the fact that you have some sort of an issue with drugs.
Marijuana is legal in over a quarter of the country. It will be 100% within 10 years I’m sure. If it’s not a PED, it shouldn’t be on the list.
If you have a personal beef with drugs and specifically marijuana, that’s on you. It’s legal for recreational use and is not a PED.

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New Training/Racing Log - http://www.earthdaykid.com/blog --- Old Training/Racing Log - http://colinlaughery.blogspot.com

i can't say for sure, but i think arch agrees with you. his position - he can correct me if i'm wrong - is he thinks anti-doping in general, at all levels, is a fool's errand, and AG drug testing approaches the absurd. his point, if i understand him, is that testing for pot is exactly the sort of absurd thing you'd do, because of all the drugs this is the least appropriate drug to be on the banned list, but getting popped for it appeals to the get-off-my-lawn moralizers, and so validates the AG testing program and gives USADA a bust it can point to and say, aha, see, where catching dopers.

i don't agree with him, btw, about anti-doping. but i do agree that a THC is silly. i also agree with monty that, silly or no, you're an idiot if you get popped for it as a pro athlete, assuming it really is hard to test positive for it.

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Dan Empfield
aka Slowman

WADA tests to the single pecogram level...so...

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Washed up footy player turned Triathlete.

I love this. Do you listen to Last Podcast on the Left?

thank God the nietzschean supermen like you aren't fooled, and can help enlighten the rest of us!

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____________________________________
https://lshtm.academia.edu/MikeCallaghan

http://howtobeswiss.blogspot.ch/

Not sure why you or anyone thinks this is just a morality issue [general respone]. I think if WADA could get away with it they'd put alcohol on the list of banned substances. Those who continuously say Marijuana and specifically THC is not addictive are so full of shit because all of them, in my experience, are stoners. Guys who can't go a day without smoking weed.

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Washed up footy player turned Triathlete.

they ban pot because they can get away with it? that's the threshold? the mandate of WADA and by extension USADA is to curb performance enhancing drugs. pot got stuck on there, a long time ago, because it leads to sinning. not winning. it doesn't matter whether it's good or bad for your health, whether it's addictive, or any of that stuff. i don't smoke pot. never have. not once. don't care one way or the other. i just don't want some guy on a power trip in a blue blazer pushing his morals on me. if we're going to ban things that are addictive and bad for you, then fine. let's ban them all. alcohol. nicotine. if we're not going to ban it all, then let's not just ban the stuff that good christian men think should be banned. they shouldn't ban pot just because they can get away with it.

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Dan Empfield
aka Slowman

Umm alcohol is on the list. Remember back in the 70’s/ 80’s biathletes would have a nip of cognac to calm the nerves before shooting? At some point someone said “hey maybe guns and alcohol don’t mix very well”

Remember the drunk Russian high jumper (in competition) from a few years ago? IIRC he didn’t get 4 years, but he certainly got in a lot of shit, warnings, brief suspension, federation help etc.

The issue here just like with employment or stone & drive etc is that currently we are unable to prove timelines.

Maurice

But THC does provide a performance enhancing benefit. That's why it's on the list.

What's the threshold for THC, people in this thread state that it's high. However, as seen from the Jon Jones case with the UFC. WADA certified labs can test down to the single Picogram level. Now think about what a picogram is...one trillionth of a gram.

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Washed up footy player turned Triathlete.

I like this a lot. I share these thoughts. You happened to write them out pretty perfectly.

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New Training/Racing Log - http://www.earthdaykid.com/blog --- Old Training/Racing Log - http://colinlaughery.blogspot.com

first i've heard of it. how does THC make me a faster triathlete?

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Dan Empfield
aka Slowman

No idea about endurance sports or THC specifically

I do know my friend was the best 135 pound US Olympic weight lifter (the event) and he said smoking pot helped him a ton and it should be banned

Yes. Apples to oranges but it’s all I got

Can you reference where you have seen any evidence of this? Genuine question because I have never heard anything like that.

Also do bear in mind we're talking about a real performance enhancement here. Let's not forget caffeine was banned for a long time. Legal now, yet we know that it has performance enhancing properties.

Bonus points if you can find anything at all to indicate THC would be more performance enhancing than caffeine...

Anxiety on the swim?

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Eric Reid AeroFit | Instagram Portfolio
Aerodynamic Retul Bike Fitting

“You are experiencing the criminal coverup of a foreign backed fascist hostile takeover of a mafia shakedown of an authoritarian religious slow motion coup. Persuade people to vote for Democracy.”

Just pointing out that WADA has a dual mandate. Regulating performance-enhancing drugs *and* athlete safety. Not saying that justifies having THC on the list. Just pointing out it's not just performance enhancement.

Edit: After reading The Code, there are 3 ways for a substance to make it on the list: 1) performance enhancement 2) Endangers health/safety, and 3) violates the "spirit of sport."

The 3rd one is a little vague for my taste.

I could see Tramadol and hydrocodone making it on the list for 2). Probably not much of a performance enhancer, but apparently cyclists will pop anything pill-shaped and need to be protected from themselves.

This is only through casual surfing but it looks to me that beta blockers are the only substance banned for specific sports. More than happy to be told otherwise. But it looks like, other than beta blockers, if a substance enhances performance in some sports then it's banned for all. So we don't have to come up with a reason why it helps a triathlete if it helps an archer or a rhythmic gymnast.

WADA also say they may ban a substance because it harms health or is against the spirit of sport.

I don't really get why there is such criticism of WADA. Regarding cannabis and THC things are happening very quickly and it is all very location specific. I don't see it as a huge infringement of liberties and if they are dragging their heels a bit and the policy changes in 5 or 10 years why does it really matter?

I don't know the specifics of any case and if someone is genuinely hard done by then I hope common sense is applied. I'm certainly not saying anyone caught out is the equivalent of someone using steroids for performance gains. Not even agreeing with WADAs position.

yeah. that's what tygart said to me. at which point i asked about other substances that were as *dangerous* as THC. based on the response to that from anti-doping agencies, i'm highly skeptical of whether they apply the same rigor to that *second* mandate.

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Dan Empfield
aka Slowman

thanks for your n=1, let me give you mine.

after using, I went to start some overhead dumbbell presses 70lb each hand. I ended dropping on on my leg and bruising it. So definitely not a performance enhancer

Well it’s great you are bragging about knowing the athlete. It is pretty low on your part to brag about it. This is life changing for the athlete and will have a definite impact on them both financially and personally. Next time let it be their business and please respect their privacy. Yes, some people know who it is but I don’t see them going out and bragging about it. Grow up!

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Owner of a few Speed Concepts since 2011.

How did I brag? This athlete is a friend and someone I look up to. Did I give a name?

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New Training/Racing Log - http://www.earthdaykid.com/blog --- Old Training/Racing Log - http://colinlaughery.blogspot.com

If it is for safety can the tests test for impairment rather than just use? Just because you used marijuana and the test picks this up does not mean you are impaired at the time of testing.

I never said you named a name. The fact you gave a back handed brag that you know who it is (it came across that way) is my issue. Let them deal with it off forum and talk to them in private to offer support, not bring attention to yourself that you know who it is.

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Owner of a few Speed Concepts since 2011.

I live in Alaska. We have good weed up here. Tell your friend to hit the next St.G 70.3 and I’ll hook him up. There, now there is some good too to come from this!

My 1st, 2nd, and 3rd thoughts on reading this response were: no, shit no, and holy mother of god - no!

I'm a control freak (eta, with regard to my self and my safety, I don't care about micromanaging what others do) and by the words of my college friends, THE very person they thought should just calm down with some weed. But I thought they were irresponsible and but by the grace of god lucky to even still be alive in some cases. Ergo, NFW would I intentionally give up my sense of control and combine that with actually risky activities like swimming in open water, or trying to bike fast.

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To breathe, to feel, to know I'm alive.

Yeah, you are definitely the guy THC would help the most in triathlon.

The big irony is that it's banned in competition, but where it helps is outside of it. I bet this forum is full of obsessive control freaks like yourself who spend sleepless nights and power through ulcers being so concerned about their performance that they self sabotage with stress. Train hard, light one up, relax until it's time to go hard again,

You're off the mark on a few points.
But the bottom line is, feel free to smoke 'em if you got 'em. While I won't be taking situations where I think it's important I have my full wits about me to intentionally compromise that by smoking up, you should feel free to do you.

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To breathe, to feel, to know I'm alive.

what does the process look like ?

ie

when did they test the athlete ?
When did they tell him/her they were positive ?
How long before it becomes public ?

No, they cannot. THC can stay in your system for 30 days or longer for very heavy users. If I smoked up last week I’m going to test positive for THC, but unless I’ve done something else in the interim I will not be impaired in the slightest today.

This comes up frequently in DUI/drug cases. There is no per se THC level, like .08 for alcohol so the prosecution has to prove intoxication via other evidence.

Heard this on the radio today...they have a new "on the spot" test with instant results for pot now...the cops wave a bag of Funyuns in front of the suspect & if they grab them, they are positive.

https://www.usada.org/...thlete-test-history/

you can search the history of all triathletes given doping tests by usada this year there, and there are only 3 male (I'm assuming it's a dude?) boulder residents on the list, and colin is only friends w/ one of them. But two of them just raced the ITU grand finale, and the one remaining is not a big name at all.

If nothing else that thing is fun to use because you see who usada targets

It's my understanding, though, that USADA doesn't do Ironman's testing. So would presumably only cover athletes who do more ITU type stuff.

My understanding is that USADA does do WTC testing, look at Dan Stubinski an amateur on here who has been tested twice.

Is there any other accredited body that does testing in the US?

Maurice

You could be right, I'm not sure. According to this ST article it's kind of both. WTC contracts w/ USADA at times, but at other times acts as its own testing authority, particularly with pros. But that was 2011 so not sure of the current state of affairs.

it’s even more fun if you set the sport to basketball or baseball.

As a signatory to the WADA code, it's likely that they still have to use a WADA certified lab. On the Ironman website they're doing their own results management. So USADA could be contracted out by Ironman to execute meat gazer time, but not like the UFC Program.

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Washed up footy player turned Triathlete.

You tested at 120 ng/mL? "Not great, but not terrible."



Yes, they can glow blue when they go supercritical (which can be safe, e.g. startup).

It's ridiculous to state you were bragging. I am surprised that so many people know who the athlete is before it's announced, and assume that is simply because the athlete in question chose to tell certain people?

That's not supercritical. That's Cherenkov radiation from beta decay.

Sorry, you are incorrect. That is the “did this person get hiiiiiigh?” Indicator on my THC test. Lol [pink]

Wow. I knew a list like this existed, but never thought to look.
So the moral of the story is they rarely test outside of AZ, Colorado Springs, and southern California and podium of US based Cam-Tri's.

Looks like long course athletes no longer get tested unless they had an extensive ITU career.
Is there a list that has all tests from WADA?

It’s actually quite interesting, if you go back a few years there were about 400 tests per year. Guys like Tim O’Donnell and Andy Potts were tested 40 times between them! Now we have 83 tests year to date in the sport.

Now, nada, zilch. It tells me that WTC which requests OOC testing simply isn’t doing it anymore in the US. Basically their AD program consists of a few tests IC at a couple of NA events.

Maurice

The picture is indeed of a reactor startup (where this type of reactor briefly goes supercritical). It's a reactor startup flash, when the Cherenkov effect is it's most dramatic.

Here's some cool video of some more reactor startups. (give culley a bag of Doritos, we could lose him for 3 hours)

Here's the list of their registered pool: Guessing these folks get to pee extra. https://www.ironman.com/...ed-testing-pool.aspx

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Washed up footy player turned Triathlete.

OK, should have been more precise. It's not blue BECAUSE it's supercritical, it's blue because of the Cherenkov effect, which exists in many situations outside of a supercritical configuration.

That could be it, I’m just wondering why for quite a few years USADA would report 300-400 tests per year and now are reporting less than 200.

Perhaps just a way in which tests are currently reported? Perhaps a reduction in testing (WTC or USAT)

Don’t know.

Maurice

Are you basing that number off of USADA’s posted list online? If so, that list doesn’t show tests initiated/requested by WTC/Ironman but performed by USADA.

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blog

As I understand USADA from dealing with them in regards to Rugby. When they are contracted to execute the test it goes in the testing database. If they are not responsible for results management, they don't post the results for that athlete. So in the case of the UFC USADA has been contracted to run the entire program. So they handle the testings and results management.

In Rugby, you have two separate testing pathways. If the testing is done during the Olympic cycle with 7s they handle the results management. If it is done for XVs, World Rugby handles results management.

So basically, my guess here is that Ironman has contracted someone else to take the piss cups to the WADA certified lab. Which is why they're not in the USADA database.

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Washed up footy player turned Triathlete.

Absolutely. I don't think we're really arguing.

We are also definitely way off topic. Anyway.

the last i heard, USADA was a contractor for ironman. what USADA did was perform the tests. USADA has its own DCOs around the world it uses, who are other contractors (doping control officers). USADA doesn't send someone from colorado springs to, say, nice, france, or chattanooga. it's like when jason bourne was in tangiers. the CIA didn't send a hit man to tangiers. it texted the local contract hit man in tangiers. same sort of thing. then the sample is transported by the DCO to the contracted lab.

ironman may choose to use USADA worldwide, or it might use someone else to perform this in other countries. there are other NADOs who'll do this for a price, and there are private contractors. what USADA does not do, in the U.S. at least, is results management. in other words, USADA does not contact the athlete, tell him he's popped, and then get into the process of convicting the athlete, hearings, the ban period, all of that.

in other countries ironman might do results management and it might not. i don't know. ironman might turn an adverse finding over to, say, the brazilian federation if it's a brazilian athlete. or it might not if it thinks the brazilians are going to just whitewash it.

i don't know what the current state of results management is with ironman but they clearly have handled a lot of it themselves. it creates a conflict of interest. for example, if a kona champ gets busted is that good for business? if you think it's not, then you might handle it in some way other than textbook. however, it's a fiction to think USAT, or the french or german federation, don't have a conflict. the only entities that don't have conflicts are NADOs but we saw a couple of years ago that the jamaican NADO was very conflicted. so, who is the purest? i don't know.

if you think USADA is the purest, and you give all worldwide ironman results management to USADA, okay. but what would USADA charge to accept that? i don't know. i've never gotten a straight answer from anyone on that. this economics of results management is quite opaque.

does a test carried out by USADA, but where its simply a contractor to ironman for the mechanics of sample collection, accrue to USADA's dbase? i don't know. i don't think so. but i don't know for sure. i forgot a lot of what i knew since the last time i reported on this.

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Dan Empfield
aka Slowman

For what it's worth-I was in-competition tested after IM Wisconsin last fall and IM Texas this year (2nd in Wisconsin, and back in 7th in Texas, so they were keeping it random there, apparently, which is fine). The sample collection agency was Clearidium. I have paperwork signed by the IM anti-doping program stating that Clearidium is authorized by WTC/IM anti-doping agency for sample collection "from athletes registered for Ironman events"..."for the purpose of sample analysis by a WADA accredited laboratory". Neither myself nor any of the other American women who were tested at those races are in the USADA database, and nowhere on any of the paperwork is USADA mentioned. To be honest, I've always been a little unclear of how it has worked with WTC/USADA/WADA and testing (I'm nowhere near the level of being in a registered testing pool, and have zero clue on out-of-competition testing), but I can at least attest that not all WTC testing is reflected in that database!

There is currently only two WADA Certified labs in the US and that's UCLA and SMRTL (SLC, UT). https://www.wada-ama.org/...ries#region-americas

Previously there was a WADA certified lab in Ohio but that seems to be gone.

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Washed up footy player turned Triathlete.

i've never heard of a WADA lab in ohio. since i started following all of this, around the turn of the century, there was only UCLA. then salt lake city came in, oh, maybe 10 years ago? 12 years ago? don't remember.

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Dan Empfield
aka Slowman

Yeah, I heard about it on a podcast I was listening to. Perhaps they misspoke because I couldn't find anything when I googled it.

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Washed up footy player turned Triathlete.

Interesting-what I quoted (that samples get sent to a WADA accredited lab) is the extent of what I know about what happens to samples after in-competition WTC tests. It's always just been pee in a cup, fill out the paperwork, and then wait for prize money to come through, which happens once WTC gets results. Two US WADA labs in the US is definitely less than what I would have thought, though!

It depends. USADA does some target testing at ironman events. Then the ban comes down simultaneously through both channels

It's Lauren Goss. She claims she was using a CBD cream to treat an ankle injury.
Seems like an awful amount of THC in the system for a cream.

https://www.instagram.com/...?igshid=9pio8vbxb64r

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What's your CdA?

No issue with recreational pot. Why try and blame CBD cream if you live in a place where pot’s legal?

Her IG appears to be private now. Did she post about it?

She hit the ridiculously high THC limit using a CBD cream? That just doesn't sound possible. Was she submersing herself in the cream like a mud bath?

If this is against the rules in any way I can take it down but this is her post. Once you follow her you can see everything.

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Benjamin Deal - Professional - Instagram - TriRig - Lodi Cyclery
Deals on Wheels - Results, schedule, videos, sponsors

 
Here's the post:

http://imgur.com/a/RtrTp6F

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What's your CdA?

Should have received a 2-year ban. Not 6-months. Such trash.

Those who can prove their supplements were contaminated get two-year bans for, so she proved that her brand of CBD used had more than advertised amounts of THC...If the onus is on the athlete, she knew the supplement she used had THC in it. She knew that use of THC in-competition is illegal. Therefore she knew she needed to find a different brand.

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Washed up footy player turned Triathlete.

So she knowingly used a product with THC in it? Regardless of whether that should produce a positive test or not, that's doesn't sound very responsible/knowledgeable of the rules she needs to abide by.

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Strava

Thank you for sharing. She obviously meant to post it in an effort to be transparent. I think it is sad. I wonder if Infinite was the sponsor who dropped her. I understand the argument that she had to be smoking to have failed the higher THC thresholds.

Even so, I still think it wouldn’t be worth taking a chance on all of these new CBD products because they aren’t appropriately tested/proven yet. These companies want athletes to use their products, so if they are above the threshold, I can see them fudging the numbers.

Pretty sure the main sponsor was Trek.

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blog

Lauren Barnett got 6-months after being able to prove her salt pills were tainted. Maybe Lauren Goss was able to prove something similar.

THC is a 6 month ban, it's not in the same class as EPO or others. Has nothing to do w/ her particular situation. USADA/WADA know that thc should be legal but are still in the moral policing realm so they give a slap on the wrist for it.

Does this CBD cream help? Maybe a little.

Does it have THC? Definitely.

Why would you risk it?

Known risk for possible benefit.

Goss's post stated that the CBD supplement was tested and had way more than the advertised amount of THC.

Considering that CBD supplements aren't certified by the FDA...this is an at your own risk type thing.

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Washed up footy player turned Triathlete.

How confident are you in that? She's still listed on the TFR site.

It was just my initial guess and assumption. I don't know if I would put any weight on the TFR website.... websites are slow to get updated sometimes. I would expect someone of her caliber who is sponsored by a big time bike mfg to be getting paid a salary + bonuses from that mfg. I can't see any other sponsor of hers, outside of maybe TYR, giving as big as an endorsement deal as TFR would. Look at the other athletes on TFR and I would expect Trek to be the top sponsor if not #2 of all those athletes.

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blog

No worries, was just wondering if that was solid or speculative. This day in age with all the bikes being so close...I'd literally not buy a Speed Concept if they dropped her for this.

Is this the same company who sponsored Lance Armstrong and tens of other current/former dopers?

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What's your CdA?

So, looking at the USADA testing database. Lauren Goss was tested once this year. Ironman doesn't list a database of those tested, just their registered testing pool. So this could have been from the USADA test, the question I have is was this a USAT directed test or from Ironman? If it's a USAT test her name will eventually appear on the USADA sanctions page.

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Washed up footy player turned Triathlete.

It had to be an in-competition test (as THC is only banned in-competition) so likely a test by Ironman after a race.

Yep. That's the one.

Doesn't have to be ordered by Ironman as USAT is the one issuing pro licenses. And in-competition doesn't necessarily mean after a race.

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Washed up footy player turned Triathlete.

Think it might be time for a poll about cannabis/thc/cbd Dan, I’m going to hypothesize that fewer people believe in prohibiting thc than 10 (5?!) years ago.

---

Tim Russell, Pro Triathlete

Instagram- @timbikerun

Let's just assume she smoked pot.... she did nothing wrong. It's her business, and none of ours. Her life should go on as usual. This is pretty disappointing by WADA, USADA, and Trek.

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Eric Reid AeroFit | Instagram Portfolio
Aerodynamic Retul Bike Fitting

“You are experiencing the criminal coverup of a foreign backed fascist hostile takeover of a mafia shakedown of an authoritarian religious slow motion coup. Persuade people to vote for Democracy.”

I´ll probably get called spiteful for this but what I just cannot circle is that knowing she had tested positive and that a ban impending or even notified of she knowingly and deliberately got on a plane to China to race the Wengcheng International Olympic Distance triathlon weekend past all expenses paid by race organisers (likely being sure that China / race not WADA complaint) and wins the race taking home a nice paycheck fully aware of being a convicted doper.

That´s about as classless as it gets IMHO, defraud other athletes of winnings and race organisers of costs, speaks volumes to her integrity.

(caveat: yes I coach the pro who got second, no that doesn´t bias my view, I would still call out the behaviour)

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David T-D
http://www.tilburydavis.com

I have nothing against you, in fact you've coached several friends who speak highly of you...but that is just preposterous.

Bullshit dude. She knew exactly what she was doing and violated the compact. She knew the rules. Saying she did nothing wrong is completely false.


I think we just call that a lack of personal ethics.

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Washed up footy player turned Triathlete.

What vernacular would you use to clearly state what a person is that has been convicted by USADA of a doping infraction then?

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David T-D
http://www.tilburydavis.com

I think you are being spiteful...(-;

Perhaps the verdict was not completely final yet? I really dont know, but if there were appeals, or chances of them, then she was right to race. Maybe she can take you two out to dinner now... (-;

At any rate it sounds like you won't have her to kick around anymore. Seems like this was a dagger in her soul, and has left her quite depressed about the whole sport thing..I still want to know if you can actually get enough into your system by just using cream? From the tone of this thread, seems like you would have to be smoking all day the day before, or eat a whole plate of brownies..Just doesnt seem logical that such a high threshold could be met with cream, but maybe something is wrong here. Either the threshold is wrong, and people are under the wrong assumption, or creams go into your bloodstream full strength, and maybe even build up, unlike metabolizing the THC in your stomach or lungs?

Do you coach your athletes that all is black and white? If not, then why do you apply that logic here? Additionally, you used to coach Lionel and he's admitted to doing much worse so you call him a doper too, right? Or does that logic only apply to the athletes you don't/haven't coached?

I couldn't agree more.

spare me the theatrics and please don´t conflate entirely different circumstances.

Lionel used recreational drugs in a past part of his life and was never "convicted" by government or USADA, he cleaned himself up and now competes in triathlons. End of.

Yes I am pretty black and white on it. My agreement states "if you knowingly or unknowingly test positive by an anti-doping authority you are fired from my roster with immediate effect".... why such a strong stance?....Here´s why, other athletes I coach *may* be subject to governing body rules that state if their coach has another athlete convicted they are no longer allowed to work with me (USA Cycling states this). Two I become known as a coach associated with someone handed a ban by USADA or WADA etc... for rest of my coaching career. The athlete can simply move on to a new career.

How staunch am I on it?.... I have stopped working with athletes who have mentioned in passing, after some time of coaching, their use of something I then research to be a supplement listed on the 411 site and contaminated.

So answer my question... what vernacular would you use?

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David T-D
http://www.tilburydavis.com

You can do, or say, whatever you want. But if you're going to call her a convicted doper, then you must call Lionel a doper. You can't apply varying logic because you have a relationship with someone. If you don't like that then come up with something else. You called Lionel a recreational drug user which if you don't believe the CBD cream excuse is the worst you should apply. If you do believe the CBD cream story...call her naive? You could also just call her Lauren Goss.

I'd bet the amount in her system was high enough to test positive because, as she stated, she's been using it twice a day for several months.
Via google, seems like thc can remain in your system a long time if you are a chronic/daily user...

That said - she says this effectively ends her career... Is that because she doesn't think she'll ever get a sponsor again? 6 months isn't that long, shorter than lots of pro's end up being out with injuries....

Well then, isn't it more embarrassing your athlete got beat by a pothead?

I question the testing protocol and threshold here... Transdermal product means super low blood absorption rate

Ok... maybe dial down the moral outrage here a bit. Do you really think someone who smokes weed recreationally is defrauding other competitors? Really? REALLY? Come on...

If the race in China wasn't bound by WADA rules, then no rules were broken, and... furthermore, so what? It's weed, not EPO or HGH. You've gotta be smart enough to know it's absurd to draw a moral equivalency between weed and *actual* PEDs.

If the race was WADA compliant, then she'll have to return the money. If it wasn't, then she won't. It's pretty simple.

convicted = you are convicted of something by laws you are governed by
doper = in the context it is used around the entire world it is of the use of any drug prohibited by a governing body during training or competing in sport governed by WADA that you are found to have used during training or competition

Whether the cream is or isn´t recreational is irrelevant.

Again you seem to conflate two entirely different matters for the sake of your own interpretation.

I am comfortable with my use of the english language, I am comfortable with my time with Lionel and my feelings (in a definition sense you so vehemently refer to) towards him/his past.

We are both free to disagree if we cannot see the other persons point of view, that´s what internet enables.

As to what you may judge me to be .... I can live with whatever that is :-)

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David T-D
http://www.tilburydavis.com

What’s the reasoning for calling LS a doper?

Am I missing something with something more recent during his actual triathlon career or are you referring to his previous admitted past drug history when he wasn’t an athlete.

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Brooks Doughtie, M.S.
Exercise Physiology
-USAT Level II

Doug,
1) she never stated she smoked weed
2) weed isn´t EPH or HGH nor in same WADA class as weed
3) the equivalency is simply that a doping infraction ban given, end of

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David T-D
http://www.tilburydavis.com

Am I missing something with something more recent during his actual triathlon career or are you referring to his previous admitted past drug history when he wasn’t an athlete. //

It would have to be that, because as far as I can tell, not once has Lionel ever been associated or linked to PED's. Quite the opposite actually. Going back to his drug addiction days is a pretty far reach, and I think way out of line. But seems there is some desperation going on with the coaches here, so a lot of hyperbole on both sides...

You literally just wrote the word doper followed by your opinion on what that word means and then accused me of "[conflating] two entirely different matters for the sake of your own interpretation."

...but sure, agree to disagree.

Yeah it does, you could literally test positive for marijuana 5 days before Kona, in Kona, and then not after the race and be "fine".

---

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Heath Dotson
HD Coaching:Website |Twitter: 140 Characters or Less|Facebook:Follow us on Facebook

Not to get into the morass that this thread has become after David's post, but you calling Lionel a doper is pretty f***ing stupid.

I'm NOT calling Lionel a doper. He's not. Just like someone who used CBD or THC isn't a doper.

Yeesh, that's awful.

I'm all for anti-DOPING, but getting dinged for WEED is f'n ridiculous!!!

And it's not like it's a "masking agent" for something worse (well, maybe she freebases Doritos too?), and the only "performance" it "enhances", is the ability to crush a whole bag of chips, or an entire box of Cap'n Crunch in one sitting.

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float , hammer , and jog

Lionel had a substance abuse problem. before he was an athlete. his use then wasn't to try to gain a competitive advantage in competition through the use of drugs. conflating Lionel's (over)use of recreational drugs with PEDs is like conflating a speeding ticket in your car 15 years ago with someone getting popped for going 50mph on the bike at Oceanside 70.3's 25mph zone. yes, they're both "speeders". but that's an exceedingly false equivalency.

i don't think tilburs is necessarily saying that lauren getting popped for THC is a righteous bust. (he'll have to correct me if i'm wrong.) i kind of don't think it's a righteous bust. i think tilburs's beef is that she knew she was under the no-race policy while her case was working its way thru the system, and she found a race to race anyway, without her competitors knowing, and i can see how folks would consider that not cricket.

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Dan Empfield
aka Slowman

“In comp” means any point you + the testers + the *race setup* is on location + immediately post race.

Which is usually ~48hrs prior to event + race itself + immediate post race.

IE it’s not only for “after” race testing essentially.


But in your scenario 5 days prior would likely be an out of comp test so yes in that scenario your correct.

2 days prior would be very close to the wada allowable “in comp” period.

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Brooks Doughtie, M.S.
Exercise Physiology
-USAT Level II

But you did to make your discussion point about LG did you not?

IE- I’m not putting words in your mouth, you did that yourself. I was more asking what that was from.

ETA: I was asking for clarity so that everything can be sticking to the facts. I’m not taking sides, you mentioned LS as a doper and thought it was out of left field.

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Brooks Doughtie, M.S.
Exercise Physiology
-USAT Level II

I thought it was clear but you aren't the only one who was confused so I'll just point out...never said that.

Your interpretation of my point is spot on, thank you Dan.

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David T-D
http://www.tilburydavis.com

Thanks for the clarification!

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Heath Dotson
HD Coaching:Website |Twitter: 140 Characters or Less|Facebook:Follow us on Facebook

It's essentially impossible to trigger a positive from CBD cream alone, given how high the threshold is to trigger a positive test. Maybe she's using CBD as an excuse, but it's extremely unlikely that CBD cream was the actual cause. But that's besides the point...

The point is that THC has no performance enhancing benefits, in any meaningful sense. We all know this. The fact that the presence of THC metabolites in urine is used as a test for possible impairment during a race is horribly misguided.

WADA has a pretty dumb rule, which (as enforced) seems more effective at enforcing arbitrary morality standards, as opposed to fair play: it's enforced in a clumsy, imprecise, manner. She gained absolutely no "unfair edge" by using weed, and didn't violate the "spirit of sport." The problem is with archaic rules, not with her use of THC. And if the race in China didn't care about a weed suspension, then good for them. They shouldn't care about it. (actual PEDs though, are obviously a different story... I'm all for lifetime bans for a single EPO, or anabolic steroid, positive)

Its 12 hours prior to competition according to USADA.


https://www.usada.org/resources/faq/#ICvsOOC

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blog

Awesome thanks, I knew it was some period “before” the event and not just post race testing time period.

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Brooks Doughtie, M.S.
Exercise Physiology
-USAT Level II

Perhaps one can think LS former drug usage have upped his ability for pain tolerance..

Interesting, that's really not how we work in team sport. Didn't know that. Competition windows are defined by scheduled fixtures. So...say the NFL was governed by WADa (it's not). The Competition Window starts in the pre-season and and ends for that team when they're no longer competing.

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Washed up footy player turned Triathlete.

Oh no doubt, you’re not wrong there. But I prefaced my comment with “let’s assume she smoked pot” (vice CBD cream as she claims) for sake of argument and as a commentary on the rule itself, not her actions.

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Eric Reid AeroFit | Instagram Portfolio
Aerodynamic Retul Bike Fitting

“You are experiencing the criminal coverup of a foreign backed fascist hostile takeover of a mafia shakedown of an authoritarian religious slow motion coup. Persuade people to vote for Democracy.”

Cheers, carry on.

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Washed up footy player turned Triathlete.

I just think that if you are agreeing that it's not a righteous bust (given you agree with Dan's interpretation of your point), you'd choose a different vernacular, rather than use a term that we all use and associate with those who are righteously busted for true PEDs. Yes, you can break down the English language and prove it was factually accurate. But knowing very well how the term is typically applied, it did seem there was some motive there, perhaps the China result.

But thanks for explaining your position.

It just sucks for Lauren.

Is that for team sports that actually follow WADA regs? Is there actual different rules and procedures for different sports.

I know the NBAPA and IOC “agreed” to only testing athletes to WADA regulations within certain time frame of Olympics. That’s just how powerful the big names are and how much the IOC will “bend” to letting them play so they can showcase them etc.

The NBA does its own internal testing within the season and has its own policies outside of the wada testing period and/or fiba events.

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Brooks Doughtie, M.S.
Exercise Physiology
-USAT Level II

Serious question... when does one become "convicted" and what can you do in the meantime?

E

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Eric Reid AeroFit | Instagram Portfolio
Aerodynamic Retul Bike Fitting

“You are experiencing the criminal coverup of a foreign backed fascist hostile takeover of a mafia shakedown of an authoritarian religious slow motion coup. Persuade people to vote for Democracy.”

NBA and Baseball have collectively bargained policies.

I used the NFL schedule only as an example for the competition window. But in Rugby, all Rugby competitions have to abide by World Rugby Regulation 21 Anti-Doping. World Rugby is a signatory to the WADA code and they follow all of the WADA regs. And based on the lengths of European seasons, the out of competition window becomes very small.

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Washed up footy player turned Triathlete.

[quote syntheticWell then, isn't it more embarrassing your athlete got beat by a pothead?[/quote]
I will just drop this here. We had a Worlds short course champion in the 90s who was a massive pothead. They could not get through dinner and a movie without lighting up, according to a friend who dated them. They also finished up a post grad degree at the same time. I cannot mix a bowl of cereal on pot, which is why I never really smoked it, but apparently some people can continue to thrive on it..

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"Remember: a bicycle is an elegant and efficient tool designed for seeking out and defeating people who aren't as good as you."

--BikeSnobNYC

Part of the problem is that "convicted" to many of us (including Oxford...) carries the weight of the legal system. Not the WADA/ USADA system of voluntary rules to participate in the events which adhere to those rules, but the court of laws of the country. She's not "convicted" because she was never declared guilty of a criminal offense by a judge or jury. It's one of the words that really shouldn't be used in a vernacular sense, because even if that wasn't your intention (I'll believe you that it wasn't) it brings connotations to people of a person in handcuffs in a courtroom and charged with a criminal offense. This casts the whole thing in a different and much more serious light, and makes some people think you're deliberately attempting to make it look worse. It would be like saying "my friend convicted me of bailing on our plans" or "the referee convicted the football player of pass interference". You can also observe this by noting when a reporter will use the word "convicted": it's always in a court of law. Never by a non-legal organization. Even when Goodell punishes a player under the personal conduct policy, it is never referred to as a "conviction" for precisely this reason. Apparently a race allowed her to compete, which isn't so much a loophole as "well I got let go from one job so I went and found another". If an organization doesn't adhere to WADA, or the ban hasn't started yet, it doesn't apply.

Sometimes it seems like people on this forum want all infractions to be responded to with ritual suicide. There are rules, and there are penalties (sometimes with latitude) for infractions of those rules. There's no reason to expect that someone will self-penalize in excess of those penalties, any more than you or I would voluntarily not drive for six months after a minor speeding ticket.

This all coming from THC makes the whole situation even more ridiculous.

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The point is, ladies and gentleman, that speed, for lack of a better word, is good. Speed is right, Speed works. Speed clarifies, cuts through, and captures the essence of the evolutionary spirit.

That is one way to look at it. You could also look at it is an opportunity to do something else and move on. Continuing to be a professional triathlete as a viable replacement career is less and less likely to work. Sure it will be blackmark/whitemark/brownmark on her record to some. It is what it is. I know looking forward that Lauren will likely be fine and will land on her feet. I got off the phone with another long-time pro earlier today. Much older than me and I think he would have liked to get out of triathlon much much sooner.

And, while it is wonderful to turn a hobby into a job the reality is that sometimes that job really starts to feel like a job. Probably the biggest moment of respect for Lionel I had on paper was during his interview on TRS where he said he would walk away if he ~"no longer loved to swim, bike, and run". He was obviously saying knowing that someday that is how he could feel. To have that sort of forward vision is actually quite impressive. Obviously, it is easy to say that on paper but sometimes harder in practice to commit to. I see amongst age-groupers too and it isn't their job to compete.

So while it may be a little bump in the road, I feel confident that it could be the best thing to happen to her. And six-months is six-months. It is the end of the season anyway. Everybody needs time to cope and cool-off. If she really wants to come back to triathlon there is nothing stopping her. The majority of professional triathletes out there do this and they aren't making anything and don't have those contracts in the first place. They do it only for the love of the sport and don't have delusions of grandeur. And who knows, maybe the six-months hiatus will even be the emotional or physical disconnect she needs to reach another level to come back. I don't think I am stating anything that hasn't been shared by her on Insta in the past, maybe it is just me constantly reading between the lines, but I think this break will be positive for her.

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i would agree with this pretty much in its entirety

I agree for the most part. HOWEVER, pot's still federally illegal. I'd love to be able to enjoy myself but can't afford to lose my job. Risk she was clearly willing to take. I think it's stupid that it's not legal, but I don't make the rules. You just have to abide by them.

It's tacky to blame it on CBD cream though. As normal as pot use is, just say you smoked pot/ate some edibles before a race.

Yes and no. It's not ridiculous in that the The List is clear, transparent, and unambiguous. As has been pretty well documented in this thread you have to work really hard at it in order to test positive. So I have little sympathy in that regard.

I agree that THC shouldn't be on The List at all. But the proper way would be for stakeholders involved (athletes, coaches, governing bodies, etc) to lobby WADA to get it removed. But I've seen no such effort (maybe there is one, and I haven't seen it).

The wrong way is to violate the rule and then complain about how ridiculous it is. There's more credibility when the lobbyists for a change aren't in the line of sights of a sanction.

If we can get Zombie Prefontaine to re-animate, I'd bet he'd be a fantastic zombie to lead a unified athlete union against THC being on The List.

USADA says marijuana and cannabis are performance enhancing drugs. I have just heard this discussed in detail in a team forum. In addition to what the article reads, the argument is the use of marijuana/cannabis can increase the athletes pain threshold, allowing them to dig deeper or suffer more/longer.

Excerpt:


https://www.usada.org/...arijuana-faq/#mjlist

USADA damages their credibility by claiming that.

E.g. this recent study, "Cannabis and the Health and Performance of the Elite Athlete" concludes that, "There is no evidence for cannabis use as a performance-enhancing drug."

This other recent meta-study concluded that, "Because the number and quality of studies was low, the effects of marijuana on athletic performance remain unclear." (and the evidence in favor was extremely weak).

The bit about "forgetting bad falls" is pure silliness.

^That's one of the first things I thought. Often times an ending is a hidden blessing. I can hardly believe that anyone can make money as a pro triathlete, save a precious few at the very top.

One of the other things I thought was that 20 years from now, we're going to be laughing that this situation was even a blip on the radar. Might as well penalize the person who has a couple beers the night before a race to calm their nerves. There's a trace amount of intoxicant in their system during the race! ;O

Lauren should parlay this into a career in the CBD business. Seriously... it'd be a perfect move.

Until this thread, I never knew that I am liable to be convicted for doping by USADA. Another reason not to do this sport. I had no idea I was cheating by hitting a vape every night before bed.

Triathlon: where thyroid medication that ruins your health and body is legal -- and can be administered by the most prominent of triathlon coaches -- while one of the other most prominent triathlon coaches slams a "professional" athlete on a public forum for hitting a jay.

I just can't. Excuse me while I go blaze my face off.

The most common sense point in this thread I think.

So following this logic we aren’t bound by all the rules just the rules we want to have apply to us. Not the ones we think are stupid. Does that work? Eh I’d argue not for long.

I don’t have any interest in THC or CBD. Do I get a “credit” for a rule to not apply to me?

Wait - That’s actually a kinda fun idea/twist to competition. We all declare a set number of rules we’re not going to be bound to. Everyone gets same number of “passes” and needs to be declared by a certain date.

I think I’d take drafting, motor and the disc wheel off that faster guy next to me... (hope he chooses to steal someone else’s wheel so he can race). those are the rules I want applied to me. I’ll stick to no EPO or HGH because we’ll duh that’s obviously bad and a “good” rule that should be followed.

And I’ll just add I know I am very far from perfect and no way think I haven’t broken a rule in my life whether caught or not but I don’t think that I just get to do what I want without the rules applying equally to me as everyone else who has agreed beforehand what the rules are.

But seriously think of the strategy of what I’m proposing. I might be onto something. Maybe refine it to a list of rules to pick from just to keep it somewhat contained.

I guess you never used it. would you drink alcohol to enhance performance? if anything this depresses the nervous system and slows you down.

I am wondering if this is all a conspiracy with the popularity of CBD and triathlon needing some media attention.

Lauren should have said exactly this:



But yet her response was basically this:



See the difference?

MANY years ago, after a margarita or three too many, I got the bright idea to knock out my scheduled 5k training run. I was surprised by how little discomfort I felt...I was also disturbed by how disoriented I felt...and both of these were in the context of an overall time on a familiar course that was within the noise of my averages at the time. N=1.

Wouldn't do it again.

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Carl Matson

I had one of my best bike training sessions whilst really hungover, also got a strava KOM descent whilst mildly intoxicated (4 beers at lunch whilst on holiday). Running is never nice hungover though...

Could bring new meaning to Michael Lovato's favorite Ironman run segment commentary... "smoke em if you got them em"

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A lot of us used to party pretty hard while training and racing back in the day.I was pretty drunk the night after day two of my first Ultraman back in 1994.Helped take a lot of the pain I was feeling at the time away and I slept like a rock.Woke up the next day feeling groggy but fine and ended up winning the damned thing.

I know of a few Ultra types who have a few drinks to put them to sleep during stage race type events

This thread made me look up what changes might be afoot in The Code. And there are lots of changes.

The draft of the 2021 Code is there. The summary of major changes is here. Some stakeholder commentary is here.

It looks like there's likely to be a new category of substances called Substances of Abuse. This, so far, includes "cannabinoids." If people get popped for this and there's no evidence it was in-competition usage, then they get a flat 3-month c̶o̶n̶v̶i̶c̶t̶i̶o̶n̶ sanction with less due process for reduction. But a proposed automatic reduction to 1-month if an approved rehab program is entered. The summary is on point, "Substantial resources are being spent arguing in hearings over the appropriate length of sanction in Substances of Abuse cases. These resources could be better spent on anti-doping
investigations or anti- doping rule violations which really do affect the level playing field of sport."

So that's a full-up admission that we're not really talking about performance-enhancement, and that these cases are pulling resources from "righteous busts."

But the rule is still undergoing considerable debate:

Quote:

There was almost universal support behind the creation of a new Article providing
special treatment for Substances of Abuse. However, there was a great deal of stakeholder debate
over exactly what that Article should say. For example, some stakeholders thought that the flat
three-month Ineligibility period was too short, while others thought it was too long. The drafting
team was struck by the comment of one stakeholder to the effect that, “whatever you do, don’t let
disagreement over the details cause you to eliminate this very valuable Article.” In the end, the
drafting team left the original Substances of Abuse Article largely intact, but added one additional
provision, Article 10.2.4.2, which provides that where the Athlete can establish that In-Competition
Use of a Substance Abuse was unrelated to sport performance then the Use shall not be
considered “intentional” for purposes of the longer sanctions for Intentional Use provided in Article

Some of the published stakeholder commentary was interesting.

Here's the French Minister of Anti-Doping:




Meanwhile the Bulgarian takes the opposite tack:



Canada seems angling towards lighter treatment, but didn't mention weed specifically. That dude was mostly asking, "What business do we have deciding who needs "rehab" and who doesn't?"

Crickets from the USA, as far as I can tell, in this round.

So people who really strongly believe the sanction is unethical should probably at least make their opinion known to their representatives. If Tygart is going "holy roller" on this (as I've read rumors he tends to do), then he should at least know he's doing so under some dissent from his "constituents."

(not replying to Trail in particular, just general comment)

As a chemist, I am curious what the label claim of THC in the CBD cream is.

As a chemist, I am curious what amount of THC was actually found in the cream.

Assuming a uniform weight of cream per area applied, one would have a huge variance in dosage depending on how big of an area you apply the stuff. Putting it on the back of your hand for knuckle arthritis, and covering your entire thigh for soreness - could be a 50 x or more difference in dosage.

So unless the cream contained 10,000 x label claim or something crazy like that.....

All I want to know is how can I get my hands on some of that cream.

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What's your CdA?

thanks trigirl357 for posting that, interesting.


from the study,
"Despite evidence that recreational cannabis use may acutely impair psychomotor skills and cognitive function, there is a perception among some athletes that cannabis use may have beneficial effects. The literature is scant, and the illegal or prohibited status of cannabis worldwide has limited our ability to generate high-quality data on the patterns and prevalence of cannabis use among elite athletes."


From a cited study of weed use by athletes, https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/27629700/
"Surprisingly, a common rationale for use appears to be to enhance sports performance."


The answer to 'is weed a PED' is clearly, 'we don't know'. That's because it's been illegal to study weed in the US and illegal to use it most anywhere.
Some athletes clearly do use it as PED.


The potential for harm is not zero.


1. https://www.nybooks.com/...ijuana-high-and-low/
"What is clear is that cannabis impairs cognition and psychomotor responses. Numerous studies show that it decreases a person’s reaction time and impairs his or her attention, concentration, short-term memory, and assessment of risks. These changes in psychomotor performance can last longer than the feeling of being high. Trials with licensed pilots found that marijuana impaired performance on a flight simulator for up to twenty-four hours.13 Further, most of the pilots were unaware that their performance was still impaired a day later. Several studies demonstrate associations between cannabis and collisions: drivers who use it are estimated to be some two to seven times more likely to be responsible for accidents compared to drivers not using drugs or alcohol."


I don't want to be racing a bike next to a stoner..


2. respiratory disease and psychosis, http://www.nationalacademies.org/...nd-cannabinoids.aspx
"There is substantial evidence of a statistical association between
long-term cannabis smoking and worse respiratory symptoms and
more frequent chronic bronchitis episodes.
There is substantial evidence of a statistical association between cannabis
use and the development of schizophrenia or other psychoses, with the
highest risk among the most frequent users. "


So I'm happy to keep weed on the banned list for competition. For recreational use it's fine, probably less harmful than alcohol, and most of us need something to survive the day.


"reality's a lovely place, but I wouldn't want to live there" - Owl City

I guess my point is

even if you calculate "based on the label claim, you can apply x-number of grams of the product, x-number of times per day and you will be ok" - it's still playing with fire.

Have you determined how quickly your body will metabolize that active ingredient? Could be different for person A and person B. Are you using an accurate dispensing method (an appropriate balance, etc)? And even with all that, would you not err on the side of caution and dial it back in case something in your calculation/procedure is awry?

This is why I ask - was the cream actually 10,000+ times label claim?

Generally agree with what Thomas writes. I just have to feel that most pro's (outside of pointy end making real $'s) would do better to retire earlier rather than later and have more time to establish themselves in their next career. Lauren is pretty close to the pointy end though, which maybe makes this a bit different. If she wants to come back next year she absolutely could. Long term I don't think this will likely affect sponsors decisions much at all, especially if she keeps on winning! Obviously losing Trek (if that's the case) will be a temporary financial setback, but as Thomas says, plenty of pro's who manage to compete without a big $ sponsor anyway. Good luck on your journey whatever you choose Lauren! Think the vast majority of fans won't care a flying fig about whether you did a bit of weed or not.

are you vaping marijuana ?
probably not a good idea, given that people are dying from that..
https://www.nytimes.com/...ping-death-lung.html

seems it's not the MJ but the oils in the illegal unregulated vape cartridges, that is causing the deaths and illness. Fire up the blunt, don't vape..

I see the slowtwitch mods must be Goss fans because there is a lot of post deletion going on

I see the slowtwitch mods must be Goss fans because there is a lot of post deletion going on //

Really? There is not enough red meat left in the thread for you? When people begin to act like idiots, well worst than idiots, those posts are gone. The rest of us get to keep being idiots, just not idiots on steroids.. (-;

He rightfully deleted the post from the guy who just joined ST that basically identified an unrelated athlete (not LG) as a pothead, and the responses to that post.

Since Triathlon's in competition window is extremely narrow...and the level of that one needs to pop...we've already kind of covered that she'd have had to have hot boxed the her shower right before checking in to a race or be a habitual user. And the idea that Marijuana isn't addictive is bollocks and it has psychoactive properties. The studies are used as the rationale seem to point towards enhanced recovery and ability to change the pain threshold of the athlete which is Performance Enhancing.

I'm not a big drinker, in fact I tend to collect stuff and rarely drink stuff. But I'm quite unsure what Alcohol does to actually enhance recover (it doesn't, look at the studies, it inhibits). It can alter the state of mind. Don't know what it does for pain threshold.

Knowing how effective nicotine is as a stimulant I'm surprised it is not banned. Someone could slap a patch on before a race and be wired.

Haven't seen the link posted here, but this was a USADA executed test with the Escape Alcatraz Triathlon. https://www.usada.org/...pts-doping-sanction/

And, like with anyone who claims it was their supplement that made them pop, is she going to sue the manufacturer?

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Washed up footy player turned Triathlete.

It works for this???? What about ankle arthritis? If it will work, I'm ordering today.

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clm
Nashville, TN
https://twitter.com/ironclm | http://ironclm.typepad.com

Can confirm, and that's why I always keep a juul in my jersey pocket.