Missed the forest for the trees.

Tinfoil stuff here but.....

He did very well in Kona last year after racing ITU long distance world champs, which was.......

120k bike and 30km run

The difference between the "old days" and now is huge. First off, Dave had an exercise phys background and both he and Mark were competitive athletes throughout college with access and monitoring with good coaches. Also, the sport was new and no one knew how to train, so they were pioneering. The culture was also different in that all the athletes bounced ideas off of one another and learned from each other. The "new" society is the "me" one and not as open at all as the previous days. LS does not have that contact with others, the scholarly background and he simply has the renegade spirit that makes him not listen, to rebel. It HAS served him well to a degree, but at the pointy end one needs an OBJECTIVE, and experienced mentor. As others state, he makes way too many dumb rookie mistakes for a person at that level. I love his attitude and his openness but he is his own worst enemy as well.

This used to describe me, but I've turned a corner after yesterday. I now feel like I am bearing witness to the real-time waste of an extraordinary, once-in-a-generation talent. Lionel doesn't owe me accomplishment aligned with what I feel his talent justifies, but it's become frustrating watching him throw darts while wearing a blind fold when he should be hitting the bullseye every time.

He reminds me of Macca, who always tried to rationalize away his failure in Kona. He was too heavy, he was too thin, his sweat rate was too high, he wasn't wearing a hear rate monitor, he never drank coke during the marathon, the bike was too easy, the bike was too hard, broken brake cable...

Boo-shit, boo-shit, boo-shit. Yesterday may turn out to be like when Tiger hit the fire hydrant. I hope not, I genuinely like Lionel, and am strongly rooting for him.

No. No. No.

This hypothetical employee is a disaster. They make poor decisions but get good outcomes, and therefore feel that their poor decisions were justified. This can be dangerous or financially ruinous.

The ST population doesn't agree universally on much, yet we all agree that purposefully dropping 5 pounds in the 72 hours prior to a race is fucking stupid.

I would fire this employee in a heartbeat. If they can make such an obvious, egregious mistake is not safe for my company's workplace. Regardless of whether it worked out or not.

ETA: I realize that LS has acknowledged that it was a mistake to do this, but that isn't the point. That he needed to "learn" this mistake is problematic. Additionally, I'm actually quite concerned for him regarding his health and well-being. He was perhaps a bit flippant in the post-race analysis, but **ARMCHAIR DOCTORING HERE** I'm actually quite concerned that he has developed a real eating disorder. I completely hope I am wrong, but if I'm not, I hope that he prioritizes addressing that more so than dialing in his strategy for Kona.

ETA part 2: I'm in the same camp as Eganski. I'd love to see him succeed, but boy is it frustrating to see him get in his own way.

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@adamwfurlong

Or, the other way to look at it is that he's good enough that he can afford to take risks and experiment, learn from those experiences and still have objectively good results even if the result of the experiment isn't what it could be.

You think Garneau / Freshii should drop him because he lost weight and his result at a relatively meaningless (to him) mid-season race wasn't quite as good as it should have been?

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No. I said nothing about his sponsors. The hypothetical scenario was how you handle an employee who made a terrible mistake but still produced a good outcome.

Sponsorship has an entirely different set of criteria about how they evaluate and value relationships.

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@adamwfurlong

So then why the heck are you talking about firing him if he were an employee? If it's not the same thing and it doesn't apply to him, why are you applying that criteria to him?

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I think you're exaggerating it wayyyy too much.

Every pro athlete/triathlete has significant ups and downs. We just subject LS to the utmost highest expectations because of his rapid rise coupled with his extreme openness with sharing his training and racing online for all to see, which is a rare treat.

I don't see anything wrong with LS's experimentation, which is within reason. Heck, the MOST important piece (by far) is the training bit, and it looks like he's got that dialed down to the nose, which is super impressive. He managed to figured out how to push to his max without getting sidelined with a race or season-ending injury.

Just think of the number of awesome, respected world-class pros who can't get this right (stress fractures, stress injuries, overtraining, etc.), and thus I think it's unfair to single out LS for lapses in judgment when this one critical area of training is something he's been both improving in AND getting real winning results with year after year now even while pushing himself to the max.

The better analysis is "wow this guy has learned SO much, and gotten SO much right, and his consistently stellar results prove it."

LS also is clearly open to GOOD input. Not armchair QBing, but from respected top coaches. Gerry Rodrigues and other esteemed folks have or are advising him, to good effect. Just because he trusts himself first doesn't mean he's uncoachable or is not listening to experts.

So LS has a coach? You mention a coach, but others say he has no coach?

literally read the very first line of text that I quoted.

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@adamwfurlong

omg Jason, usually you're pretty rational.

I made the comparison that Lionel - in the tri world - is the equivalent of a top earner at a fairly large business. If you have beef with that comparison, or trouble understanding why you would have to put an employee like Lionel on performance review after a shocking number of questionable decision making outcomes, then I don't know what to tell you.

You know, Lionel said that in his post-race interview, but there's another problem he has.

Training is maybe 50% of the battle. The other 50% is nutrition and emotional stability.

How'd he do on the other 50%?

i did.

is your defense that someone else raised it first? if the situation doesn't apply, then it doesn't apply and it's somewhat silly to make the argument that if it did apply, then.....

the guy is supposed to try to push his limits. it's what he does. can't push limits if you don't find out where they are. He made a mistake in dropping that mich weight, but it wasn't a massive failure. I mean, he dropped a few minutes in an IM. big deal, he'll come back from that. It's not like he took up stunt motorcycle riding 2 days before Kona or something....

besides, in business people try things and fail at them all the time. sometimes spectacularly. in hindsight, there are always naysayers who come along and say that it was a terrible idea to begin with. IME, the best companies are the ones who allow for latitude for their employees to fail sometimes, and if the employee is a net contributor (either directly or indirectly) to the bottom line, then they are worth having on the team.

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I'd say he's doing GREAT.

Seriously, he went vegan to improve his overall lifestyle. The weight loss is likely going to help his running, if not taken too far. Where too far is must be determined by experimentation.

Sure, any armchair QB can look after the race and go 'duh, he lost too much weight right before the race, what an idiot!', but imagine if this had been a 70.3 race and he crushed it (which he likely would have) because he didn't have to go as deep into his tank. ALL of you same guys would be saying 'what a good move weight loss was for him - good for him!"

At the least, it shows both a willingness to take appropriate risk (I'd say figuring this out before his "A" race is very good planning) and a willingness to learn the lessons (no evidence that he's just stubbornly sticking to his erroneous ways despite data against him).

When you're trying to go from #2 at Kona to #1, you're going to have to take some risks and learn from your mistakes while somehow preserving what you have. I'd strongly argue LS has done this wayyyy better than his competitors, hence his string of wins or near-wins compared to what his more experienced and so-called wiser competitors have accomplished.

The vegan dietary change is also a long-term move. Even LS knows it's not going to lead to instant benefits, and he's going to have to adapt to it as best he can while racing well.

Dude is also emotionally solid from what I can see thus far. He's been taking lessons from all his losses, and humbly working on his weaknesses with a long-term goal (like swimming). I haven't seen him go on factless rants even when things don't go his way, and he doesn't get baited into internet battles by his critics despite putting himself fully out there.

he's supposed to WIN.

Don't quote me on this, but as far as I've seen, he has worked with various coaches like Gerry and others, but doesn't have a full-time coach who dictates his training/racing. So more along the line of advisors who are coaches, but I think he's mostly self-coached.

Doesn't mean he's not paying attention though - dude clearly wants to learn from the best, even if it means literally copying Jan Frodeno's equipment setup.

What serious professional triathlete -- or any serious triathlete, for that matter -- seeks to remedy TT handling inadequacy by riding around on a "quite technical", "little narrow" walking path replete with children, dogs, and baby carriages? In aero! And apparently shirtless. He's like a real life marathonrunner, but not as intelligent, because at least marathonrunner wore a shirt and rode on bike paths. Is it not reasonable to expect someone who is inarguably one of the most gifted triathletes of his era not to conduct himself like a forum troll?

His experimentation is not within reason. What triathlete of his caliber and experience thinks intentionally cutting weight in the three days prior to an Ironman is a smart idea?

This person is an utter fool.

Let's delve into this thought a bit.

We see it ALL THE TIME. The idea that if I do "X" performance this year, then to do "X+1" performance I have to do MORE or DIFFERENT training. This idea is a fallacy. Being healthy, consistent, and having mild progression is what makes you better. There is no secret "block" of workouts or "strategy" that re-define how you place in a long distance triathlon. Just doing the same thing, over and over and over, will get you to where you need to be.

Take Cody, for example. Cody did nothing weird or strange in his leadup to his first IM. He did consistent work over a long period of time (years) and executed on race-day. He trusted in the process, and was able to seek advice and counsel when he had questions or needed his path re-directed or altered.

But far too often athletes simply believe that because they want to improve next year they have to CHANGE something. This is simply not true.

Once you're quite good at something, you don't make large percentage leaps anymore. You make tiny, tiny gains. Not through weird shit like sizing down a frame to be more aero.

I don't really have a beef with the comparison, but the obvious follow up is that the guys who sign his paycheque (Garneau / Freshii) should be considering firing him. But they're not, are they??? Because that's well within his scope of responsibility to manage as he sees fit. They would probably fire him if he started posting racist slurs on twitter, or other conduct unbecoming. They would probably let him go if his results slipped to the point where he wasn't getting media exposure for their brands. But for a one time decision, or even a series of one time decisions that aren't what the peanut gallery thinks are the "correct" decisions? When the results he's having indicate that he's still at the top of his game? Don't be ridiculous, you wouldn't fire him, just like you wouldn't fire your top sales guy when he takes a risk and goes after a new market, but only adds 15% to the bottom line instead of the expected 18%.

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Totally disagree.

His bike handling is fine. Sure, he's remarked he didn't feel as comfortable as he should have on it so he should ride outside more, but there's no way he's just tut-tutting on a walking path for his outdoor bike training. You don't win the bike split at world-class IMs by just doing that.

And his experimentation is within reason. When has LS ever had a similar problem with nutritional meltdown on his IM? And it would make sense that he wanted to capitalize on one of the real changes he made to racing, which is cutting down some weight, just to learn from the experience. Clearly he overdid it, but I think it was very important for him to have the experience of actually seeing where than line was, as he's never tested that line before, ever.

Again, all you guys would be saying the complete opposite of your critiques if this had been a 70.3 race and he crushed it (which he likely would have) since it's not as long and depleting as the IM. This whole thread would be full of "wow, look how great weight loss is even for already-thin pros, even around race day!"

Are we talking about the same guy Jan Frodeno trounced at Oceanside who subsequently attributed Frodo's use of Speedplay pedals as a material factor in the beatdown? The guy who then tried to fit himself prior to St. George with horrendous results?

He regresses as much as he progresses. It's maddening, really

I think he finished like 29th at Kona 2016? Was that meltdown caused by anything in particular? Pretty sure he was like 14th in 2015. And then he made a huge re-bound last year and finished 2nd. He is a great athlete for sure, but I think he could be even greater if he would get some solid help with things like bike fit and nutrition.

OMG YES!!

Kona 2015 and 2017

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