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Re: Very real chance Sanders does not Podium at Kona this year. [daveconn10] [ In reply to ]
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Really well stated Daveconn and 100% agree.


His best Kona performance was under the guidance and tutelage of David Tilbury Davis, who as was pointed out earlier in the thread has been Cody Beals mentor and advisor for many years leading to a fantastic collaboration. Such a shame LS parted ways with DTD after Kona.


Not sure what the next 12 weeks holds for LS before Kona, but hopefully he can reach out to the slew of experts he works with at Garneau, Gatorade, Skechers, etc and in the areas where he faltered yesterday can incorporate experts advice as to what he did wrong and how he can learn and correct moving forward.
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Re: Very real chance Sanders does not Podium at Kona this year. [Tri_JC] [ In reply to ]
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Tri_JC wrote:
Agree with others that he would benefit from a coach

This has been said for years about him by countless people.

But he will never benefit from a coach until he's actually coach-able. You can't help someone that doesn't want to be helped.

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Re: Very real chance Sanders does not Podium at Kona this year. [stevej] [ In reply to ]
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stevej wrote:
Tri_JC wrote:
Agree with others that he would benefit from a coach


This has been said for years about him by countless people.

But he will never benefit from a coach until he's actually coach-able. You can't help someone that doesn't want to be helped.


^^^^ This, as I said on another thread. The list he compiled and dumped are a pretty strong one. I'm thinking any good coach at this point may also have second thoughts about if he'd actually listen.
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Re: Very real chance Sanders does not Podium at Kona this year. [jkhayc] [ In reply to ]
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I missed watching 90% of the run I was just looking at splits. To me it seems weird looking at them. Like he shut down the bike at 150k and the run around 32k. Obviously if he was glycogen depleted on the bike I would understand, But how the heck does he put down a splits like that on the bike and run then seemingly just drop off twice? The words coming out of his mouth in the post race interview would make you think he was toast on the bike but that doesn't seem to be the case looking at his run splits up till 32k.
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Re: Very real chance Sanders does not Podium at Kona this year. [ggeiger] [ In reply to ]
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You guys have been talking about Sanders gets it all wrong for years, and yet... he still gets it done and it seems from his interview that he knows where he messed up and what he needs to do to correct it. The dude had an extremely sub-par day (by his standards) and still cranked out an 8:24

He'll be fine in Kona.

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Re: Very real chance Sanders does not Podium at Kona this year. [JasoninHalifax] [ In reply to ]
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JasoninHalifax wrote:
You guys have been talking about Sanders gets it all wrong for years, and yet... he still gets it done and it seems from his interview that he knows where he messed up and what he needs to do to correct it. The dude had an extremely sub-par day (by his standards) and still cranked out an 8:24

He'll be fine in Kona.

I'd strongly argue LS is outperforming what any coach could give him at this point based on his good judgment. I wouldn't have said so in his earliest years where he was making really obvious errors, but ultimately results are what matter most, and you gotta be kidding me if you look at his string of race results in the last year and a half and say he's going wrong. Even this alleged meltdown is pretty freaking awesome - 2nd place and only losing to a historic performance, on your WORST day - jeez, I'd take that any day, regardless of coach or not.

Even if this is the best LS ever gets (2nd at Kona, and his recent string of wins), it's an unabashed success the way he is doing it. Whether it be indoor training, semi to no coached, vlogging, etc.
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Re: Very real chance Sanders does not Podium at Kona this year. [lightheir] [ In reply to ]
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And a terrible bike fit to add to your list.
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Re: Very real chance Sanders does not Podium at Kona this year. [tuckandgo] [ In reply to ]
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This, and he says he lost 10 pounds over 12 weeks.

"The person on top of the mountain didn't fall there." - unkown

also rule 5
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Re: Very real chance Sanders does not Podium at Kona this year. [arby] [ In reply to ]
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arby wrote:
And a terrible bike fit to add to your list.

why is his bike fit "terrible"?

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Re: Very real chance Sanders does not Podium at Kona this year. [JasoninHalifax] [ In reply to ]
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Have you saw him on the bike? In my opinion he needs a larger frame to get him out of the crunch and into a nice aero position.
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Re: Very real chance Sanders does not Podium at Kona this year. [arby] [ In reply to ]
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uh huh.

and yet, he's riding better this year than ever (IMT notwithstanding). So why is it terrible, if he's riding better on it?

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Re: Very real chance Sanders does not Podium at Kona this year. [arby] [ In reply to ]
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IIRC, he said he planned to drop a frame size after oceanside this year to get more drop (because, Jan) and put an alpha x on the front. I think he's riding a smaller frame than he rode at Kona last year.
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Re: Very real chance Sanders does not Podium at Kona this year. [JasoninHalifax] [ In reply to ]
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Same reason he needs a good coach, to improve his performance.
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Re: Very real chance Sanders does not Podium at Kona this year. [arby] [ In reply to ]
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fast is fast....

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Re: Very real chance Sanders does not Podium at Kona this year. [Fishbum] [ In reply to ]
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I think there is a good chance that Sanders isn't even in the top five this year.


As someone else said - you could say that about any of the big favorites!

So many variables all up in the air, and only so many you can control in the lead-up to the race and the race itself.

To win in Kona, you have to get all the breaks, and have everything going right for you on the day of. If you are a bit off . . , forget it! And even here, some of the ones who have been most consistent with winning and podium places in Kona say it's about battling through on the B-plan!

LS has been somewhat hot/cold with the full IM racing. He tends to be more consistent at the half/70.3 distance. How he will go in Kona in 7 weeks . . . not sure. he says, he's learned a few BIG lessons from yesterday. It will be interesting to see what those are and how he corrects.

He remains vulnerable on the swim (losing too much time to the group of main contenders), and then on the run - he runs well when he's "on", but when others of the top contenders are "on" as well - chiefly Lange, Frodeno etc . ., they can easily out-run Lionel. So he/we get down to that gambling game of trying to figure out how much of a lead at T2 is "safe"?


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Re: Very real chance Sanders does not Podium at Kona this year. [JasoninHalifax] [ In reply to ]
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Not fast enough yesterday. Not fast enough at Kona last year. Maybe a coach, a nutritionist and bike fit could make him fast enough next time. All these guys are fast and yes its easy to Monday morning QB which I shall stop with this post.
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Re: Very real chance Sanders does not Podium at Kona this year. [lightheir] [ In reply to ]
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lightheir wrote:
JasoninHalifax wrote:
You guys have been talking about Sanders gets it all wrong for years, and yet... he still gets it done and it seems from his interview that he knows where he messed up and what he needs to do to correct it. The dude had an extremely sub-par day (by his standards) and still cranked out an 8:24

He'll be fine in Kona.


I'd strongly argue LS is outperforming what any coach could give him at this point based on his good judgment. I wouldn't have said so in his earliest years where he was making really obvious errors, but ultimately results are what matter most, and you gotta be kidding me if you look at his string of race results in the last year and a half and say he's going wrong. Even this alleged meltdown is pretty freaking awesome - 2nd place and only losing to a historic performance, on your WORST day - jeez, I'd take that any day, regardless of coach or not.

Even if this is the best LS ever gets (2nd at Kona, and his recent string of wins), it's an unabashed success the way he is doing it. Whether it be indoor training, semi to no coached, vlogging, etc.


2nd at IMMT to a first time IM finisher, by 15 minutes. Also, far from his worst day. Nobody is questioning his physiology or his talent, just his decision making process.

And yes. This is all armchair quarterbacking. But the guy is a celebrity in this world and a public figure, so it is expected.

And no athlete can ever "outperform" what a good coach can teach them. That's preposterous
Last edited by: jkhayc: Aug 20, 18 8:30
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Re: Very real chance Sanders does not Podium at Kona this year. [JasoninHalifax] [ In reply to ]
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Here is the deal with Lionel, he doesnt need a coach. No one knows him better than himself, and he is one of those guys that just doesnt trust others when it comes to what he believes he knows better than anyone. This is not new or strange, virtually my whole generation self coached and managed themselves, and that was without the internet and all the knowledge base we all provided the current crop of competitors. So if Mark Allen and Dave Scott could do a 8;09 at Kona in 1989 with that knowledge, it should be immensely easier for an athlete with the right demeanor self coach themselves today.

Now to what Lionel is doing, he is doing great. He did need someone to tell him what an idiot he was leading up to this race, losing 10 lbs and 5 of it in the last few days before the race. That was just plain idiotic, and it looks like after the fact he knows this too. But problem is I'm not sure he would have listened to anyone before thinking how lean you are = faster times, just something he needed to learn on his own so that he can now believe it. Guys like him just won't believe others, and rightly so most of the time. But it is that once in awhile where it would have been nice if he were open and the right person was strong enough to be able to get through to him, but like relationship advice(do any of us ever listen to others?) he just needs to figure these things out for himself.

And he has done well along the way, with a steady and continued improvement. He has almost reached the pinnacle of triathlon and had a stellar career. To me his biggest enemy is burnout, can he sustain this pace for 5 more years, even 10?? Others have, but with a little more patience, Lionel wants things done, and he wants them now. This is what makes him such a great athlete to watch, he just goes after whatever he perceives as a flaw and attacks it. Who have we ever seen go from such a hack swimmer to doing an 18;50 LCM ? He defies all past examples, rides and runs with such an unorthodox style, that it just leaves our heads shaking and thinking if only he would listen to me, or that coach. Some people are just uncoachable by others, but that is ok. Mark and Dave and a lot of us did ok that way, trial and error, but always learning more from the errors than the victories.

He should be fine in Kona, unless the vegan thing is just deeper than he let on, or even knows about. But like he said, he has his own records of workouts and training blocs, so if they are good, continue to be good(and better than before) then he probably is on the right track. But he should be ready to adjust that in a moments notice in the next weeks if things go south in training, there really is not much room for error from this point on. And I would have him racing more at 163 or so for Kona, couple lbs lighter than last time, but much higher than this last race. He has acknowledged that 161 was probably the right weight when he weighed in a few days prior, so he is going the right direction..
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Re: Very real chance Sanders does not Podium at Kona this year. [Dave Latourette] [ In reply to ]
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As much as Lionel is all about learning he continues to be on the path of unhealthy. He tots being ok with not needing a coach or advisers yet he makes rookie mistakes. He's his own governor and yet we have learned time and time again that he's not capable of monitoring himself. I wish more people would recognize that Lionel and his approach is not healthy nor consistent or sustainable, yet we have so any people trying to adapt to it.



Dave Latourette wrote:
Not a fluke ... his general obsession with "stuff" this time has gotten him into trouble with body weight. He's too lean, too light ... you see it EVERY year in Kona (males & females) before the race and I just write those people off. Losing the extra kilo doesn't always play out well.

If he learns that lesson from Mont-Tremblant the race was worth it. His obsession with Jan is well, obsessive ;-)

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Re: Very real chance Sanders does not Podium at Kona this year. [kileyay] [ In reply to ]
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someone refill my coffee. I hope ST does not start charing to read threads Lionels name is mentioned in. This was more entertaining than the race it self.
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Re: Very real chance Sanders does not Podium at Kona this year. [jkhayc] [ In reply to ]
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And no athlete can ever "outperform" what a good coach can teach them. That's preposterous

Not really. Not all coaches are a good fit for all athletes, and not all coaches are "good coaches". But it's very hard to know in advance who is a good coach for a particular athlete and who isn't.

as far as decision-making, Sanders appears to make a lot of "mistakes", but he doesn't seem to make the same ones twice. See monty's post, he gets it.

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Re: Very real chance Sanders does not Podium at Kona this year. [monty] [ In reply to ]
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monty wrote:
Here is the deal with Lionel, he doesnt need a coach. No one knows him better than himself, and he is one of those guys that just doesnt trust others when it comes to what he believes he knows better than anyone. This is not new or strange, virtually my whole generation self coached and managed themselves, and that was without the internet and all the knowledge base we all provided the current crop of competitors. So if Mark Allen and Dave Scott could do a 8;09 at Kona in 1989 with that knowledge, it should be immensely easier for an athlete with the right demeanor self coach themselves today.

Now to what Lionel is doing, he is doing great. He did need someone to tell him what an idiot he was leading up to this race, losing 10 lbs and 5 of it in the last few days before the race. That was just plain idiotic, and it looks like after the fact he knows this too. But problem is I'm not sure he would have listened to anyone before thinking how lean you are = faster times, just something he needed to learn on his own so that he can now believe it. Guys like him just won't believe others, and rightly so most of the time. But it is that once in awhile where it would have been nice if he were open and the right person was strong enough to be able to get through to him, but like relationship advice(do any of us ever listen to others?) he just needs to figure these things out for himself.

And he has done well along the way, with a steady and continued improvement. He has almost reached the pinnacle of triathlon and had a stellar career. To me his biggest enemy is burnout, can he sustain this pace for 5 more years, even 10?? Others have, but with a little more patience, Lionel wants things done, and he wants them now. This is what makes him such a great athlete to watch, he just goes after whatever he perceives as a flaw and attacks it. Who have we ever seen go from such a hack swimmer to doing an 18;50 LCM ? He defies all past examples, rides and runs with such an unorthodox style, that it just leaves our heads shaking and thinking if only he would listen to me, or that coach. Some people are just uncoachable by others, but that is ok. Mark and Dave and a lot of us did ok that way, trial and error, but always learning more from the errors than the victories.

He should be fine in Kona, unless the vegan thing is just deeper than he let on, or even knows about. But like he said, he has his own records of workouts and training blocs, so if they are good, continue to be good(and better than before) then he probably is on the right track. But he should be ready to adjust that in a moments notice in the next weeks if things go south in training, there really is not much room for error from this point on. And I would have him racing more at 163 or so for Kona, couple lbs lighter than last time, but much higher than this last race. He has acknowledged that 161 was probably the right weight when he weighed in a few days prior, so he is going the right direction..

All of this is extremely true. But at the same time that's what's hard: I WANT to see him dominate and do well all the time but he gets in his own way! He should not be making these types of huge, monumental errors in judgement at his level. Could someone with a real job making a top 1% income in their field get away with the errors he has made? No, they'd be fired.
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Re: Very real chance Sanders does not Podium at Kona this year. [JasoninHalifax] [ In reply to ]
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JasoninHalifax wrote:
And no athlete can ever "outperform" what a good coach can teach them. That's preposterous

Not really. Not all coaches are a good fit for all athletes, and not all coaches are "good coaches". But it's very hard to know in advance who is a good coach for a particular athlete and who isn't.

as far as decision-making, Sanders appears to make a lot of "mistakes", but he doesn't seem to make the same ones twice. See monty's post, he gets it.

Not sure why you put "mistakes" in quotes, because they are f***ing MISTAKES. But that's what makes people like him, that he's not afraid to put himself out there. That and the fact that he's Canadian.
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Re: Very real chance Sanders does not Podium at Kona this year. [jkhayc] [ In reply to ]
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Because they may or may not actually be mistakes. They’re experiments, which may or may not pan out, but it’s clear that he does think about them. They’re learning opportunities for him.

I’d wager that he makes fewer mistakes, on average, than virtually anyone on this board or most other pros. He is just more open about them, so it seems like he makes more.

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Re: Very real chance Sanders does not Podium at Kona this year. [jkhayc] [ In reply to ]
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Could someone with a real job making a top 1% income in their field get away with the errors he has made? No, they'd be fired.//

Why would anyone fire someone for getting 2nd?? No one wins all the time, absolutely no one. He made a big mistake yes, but he still collected a pay check, performed for his sponsors who paid him, and I doubt one iota that any of them are nervous about his future.

And you want to see him dominate, that's easy. Just watch him race for the past couple years, that's domination. Every race he goes to, he is the most feared athlete by all the top guys. They know they can beat him on given days, but they also know that there is no room for error, because his dominance is from his consistency. It is very hard to be as consistent as this guy is and to win so many races, but he has done as well as one could imagine. And rest assured he is not done winning, at least until he loses that consistency. That is his weapon, and it forces others to be at the very best on given days to beat him.

Lionel is allowed to make mistakes, just like all of us. Not sure why many want to hold him to a higher standard as a human being. His huge mistake as you put it probably earned him $50 to70K in prize money/salary and bonuses this month. Yea, he should be fired...(-;
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