In fairness, the level of competition is so strong and deep, you could probably say that about anyone.

Can’t wait to see the shoot out in South Africa- Frodo, Gomez, Kanute, Brownlee (hopefully healthy)!

IS that a 2 to 1 chance you are giving, if so I will take some of that action.....You just spouting off, or want to bet real money on your thesis???

Come on Fishy I expect better trolling than this.

I am willing to chalk this up to a fluke as his 70.3 STG / 70.3 IMMT races were very impressive this year and I have a tough time imaging he has gone backward since then. His leanness does scare me a bit.

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Dude needs a steak and a brick of cheese STAT.

Of course there’s a chance. Super strong field. Interested to hear an interview with Him after the race to hear what went down right from the horses mouth.

He also may bike a course record and win the thing. Almost Infinit possibilities and that’s the beauty of sport.

One things for sure, I hope IM Louisville has it on a screen somewhere!

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Dan Mayberry
Amateur a lot of things, professional a few things.

Not trolling...
Well maybe a little bit but the field seems really strong this yr..

Gomez top 3?

The top 5 could be crazy hard to guess let alone top 3

Here you go:

Raclette dinner?

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Washed up footy player turned Triathlete.

No white Knighting in this thread.

FYI Lionel ran 2:55 today

And?

Not a fluke ... his general obsession with "stuff" this time has gotten him into trouble with body weight. He's too lean, too light ... you see it EVERY year in Kona (males & females) before the race and I just write those people off. Losing the extra kilo doesn't always play out well.

If he learns that lesson from Mont-Tremblant the race was worth it. His obsession with Jan is well, obsessive ;-)

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Dave Latourette
http://www.TTENation.com

I think I and many others can identify with the obsessive behavior that Lionel demonstrates when it comes to his triathlon training/eating/recovery etc. The problem is that while this type of behavior is necessary to be successful at a high level, it can often end up being detrimental when there is no observer to say "Stop" or "hold back" etc. His wife should not have to play this role. He needs a coach. He needs to let go his obsession with controlling everything and let someone else write the program and the diet so he can just focus on suffering through the workouts.

He better right the ship eating wise.

Awesome.

Thanks very much!

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Dan Mayberry
Amateur a lot of things, professional a few things.

I know conventional wisdom says doing an IM this close to Kona is not a recipe for success and we’ll see what happens, but I never took it at as he was going for the win today. Just ’I’m going at xx% of race effort today to test certain things’ with no regards to where he finished. Did I miss something as to his goal today? Sure Kona is shaping up to be awesome if all the top contenders bring their A game and have a good race but how often does that happen. And awesome job by Cody in his first IM. Ok back to the AH train wreck.

I believe this is what I and a few others (Fleck? DD? etc) have hinted at for years ... and yet every year its something different.

I watched off and on for little bits today and though his general bike position looks better, his bike is too small (because he thinks its more aero?) ... he still has not addressed the bio-mechanics that are effected by cleat / pedal width (and or crank length?) which also effect his aerodynamics.

I get the personality type (I have athletes like that) and while that obsession and need for control have, of course, provided a high level of success, it has roadblocked how quick the success could have been achieved and it continues to roadblock how good he could be.

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Dave Latourette
http://www.TTENation.com

Gomez comes in 11th at IMC??? Wasnt he second behind Currie?

In all honesty this has nothing to do with todays results. And out side of his diet I'm sure he better this yr that last. I just think it's a stacked field...

And AH is a knucklehead.

Not a expert on bike position but he still looks wasteful for lack of a better word.

Was "Infinit" spelling a shameless plug? As triathletes, I can see how one would confuse that with the custom drink formulas. It's okay, "Infinit" does work well for me, so I'll proudly give it a plug here!

After watching the posted video, I’ve changed my opinion and it appears it was extremely important for him that he ran this race. (If he was on the level and I have no reason to believe he wasn’t)

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Dan Mayberry
Amateur a lot of things, professional a few things.

Lol. Nope just bad spelling. I’ve used it in the past, however.

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Dan Mayberry
Amateur a lot of things, professional a few things.

He had a coach and he had a good coach. But yet he fired that coach for reasons that made absolutely no sense. And now he got wiped off the course by a guy who has flourished for years under the direction of that same exact coach.

This person is...I don't even have words. He is not smart enough to cook his own breakfast, let alone design his own nutrition plan or workouts. The only thing worse than someone this dumb is someone this dumb who does not know he is dumb at all. That he is nearly without physiological peer -- and yet still(!) manages to screw it up for himself -- but is this bereft in every other faculty must be some kind of cosmic troll.

I can't stand the guy.

10/ 10 on the Pubes scale - classic!

I don’t necessarily agree, but I love that you’re here to say it.

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Aaron Bales
Lansing Triathlon Team

🤔

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Aaron Bales
Lansing Triathlon Team

Whoa Pubes! We knew you loved Lionel /hug

Are you just getting warmed up with Tremblant for a full on ST heavy volume posting block into, during and after Kona. If so, ITS ABOUT TIME!!! We need something better than Ashley Horner threads1!!

Yup I toatally screwed that up. Too much trying to follow races while supposed to be working. I’m a dope.

No worries - I just thought I'd missed something, like maybe he raced at IM Canada.

ETA now that I look at the Ironman Canada results, it was Pedro Gomes who finished 11th OA behind 2 AG guys. Not Javier Gomez at IM Cairns. Makes more sense now.

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Aaron Bales
Lansing Triathlon Team

The first rule of Dunning-Kruger Club is that you don’t know you’re in Dunning-Kruger Club.

He he he

Although technically - that only applies at one end of the competency scale.

I think both ends of the scale are accounted for in the Dunning, Kreuger effect.
The less you know the more confident you are in you abilities.
The more you know your confidence in your knowledge drops.
Think AH as figure one.
Carl Sagan as the other.

You seem to have misinterpreted my comment.
If you re-read the above, I said Rachela's comment only applied to those at one end of the competency spectrum, not that Dunning-Kruger only applies to those of low competence. Their study did include subjects with both very low and very high competency. Having said that, the term "Dunning-Kruger Effect" only applies to the phenomenon whereby those with very low competence are, as a consequence, incapable of realising it and so inclined to think themselves far more competent than they actually are. So, that being the point, I probably should have said nothing!

Does anyone just find this absolutely clueless? I've started to watch his videos on YT and I am always left scratching my head. He clearly has good relationships with a food company and a sports nutrition company. Did anyone tell him that depleting yourself in the run up to an IM is counter intuitive? Did he even ask?

This is a sport that is frankly at the cutting edge in terms of the unique demands it places on you in terms of dietary requirements. Even to listen to his description of his fluid intake during a training 25km run is insane.. 2.1 litres of fluid in 90 mins. Even without exercise that is a hard ask for the body to process, never mind while running sub 4min km's.

Physiologically he is a freak, could even be the strongest in the field. He clearly has a mental toughness and a focus to beat the best....but he is just letting himself down in two important fields. Surely he should delegate. As a very very good triathlete and olympian said to me. Swim with swimmers, bike with bikers and run with runners,eat with nutritionists and most important - have a coach who recognises the value in all of these people.

I've missed you Pubes.

+1
Were you on sabbatical?

Has anyone else considered the fact that this wasn't that bad of a showing 2 months out from Kona? First of all LS went 55, 4:28, 2:55 for an 8:24. How was he able to go 6:10 pace for the first 20 miles of the run if he was in such a bad way? He had to shut it down purposely. The words out of the colonels mouth were that this was a long training day to test efficiency and other changes, add that to the fact that his buddy CB was the one who won this race (with a killer debut). I am just speculating but wouldn't it make sense for LS not to push Cody and let him have his day? After all Cody says he is not doing Kona anyway and it would make sense for LS to save his run legs. If that is the case I think this is a win for him to show restraint, get in whatever testing he wanted and come back to Kona with a clearer picture. Just my opinion, although I don't disagree that getting some coaches or mentors would pay dividends to his consistency.

I guess we shall see in a couple months.........

I completely agree with this. I watched some of the bike live and he looked down on power and strength and that flowed into the run (he still put out solid times in both legs). He has been vegetarian for the bast three months apparently, I don’t blame that but like some others have said he is pushing th extremes to win.

I predict he will be right up the front end for kona. He finished 2nd in a major race and had a “bad day”. He has to swim good to be close enough to get back to the front group then get away on the bike. Like last year if he, wurf and Keanle re together out of the water then it’s game on.

Interesting video and as a recovering addict... speaking of Lionel, it looks like he's very prone to addictions. At least he's aware and I wonder how Kona will go for him on the back side of this lesson.

On thread subject, there's a good chance ANYONE could not podium at Kona, tough conditions and the toughest field.

If Lionel was playing the ultimate poker and jogging through 55/4:28/2:55 then he just took a page out of Lance faking like he is bonking all day only to unleash the look on Ullrich on Alpe d'Huez switchback number 3. He DID seem to have way too much energy post race for a guy who is totally glycogen depleted, but maybe he recovered quickly with the potato chips! However you cut it 55/4:28/2:55 while either completely glycogen depleted or while playing poker on his Euro based rivals is a solid day.

But I don't think it was a question of "Letting" Cody have his day. Cody is a faster swimmer and he may be just as fast a 112 mile biker from what we saw yesterday and Cody ran 2:49 in his debut IM. If I recall correctly Lionel has not run faster than 2:44. So on a perfect day they come even with 3-4 miles to go on the run and then it's a head to head drag race.

I think what we (and maybe even Cody himself) found out yesterday is that his 70.3 speed degrades less over 140.6 than many of his peers. He may have a physiology like Rappstar in that vein. Flip it the other way and put Cody against Gomez in an Olympic tri and its a larger delta between them. I don't think Gomez would have beaten Cody on Sunday.

Lionel getting too light is not good for smaller athletes on long course. Just race storage tanks to store glycogen.

'I really limited my eating over the last couple of days'.

Just before a race.

Nothing more to be said.

the problem wasn't in Lionel's physiological capacity, it is seemingly in his decision making process. 700+ ml per HOUR on the bike? Weighing in at sub 160 pounds and having cut weight LEADING into an IM?? Choosing to do an IM this close to Kona and then CHOOSING to finish even when he's clearly into so many GI issues he can barely run straight.

Just a lot of questionable decisions over the course of a week.

Also, regarding the LS "letting" Cody have his day: do you seriously think an athlete of LS' caliber signs up for any race and doesn't plan on winning the damn thing? Please.

Further, LS has had MANY coaches and advisors. They end up not being able to stick it out together for whatever reason. But it's like when one athlete ALWAYS has bike issues (we all know this person); it's not the bike, it's you.

And no one that is competitive wants someone to let them win. They want to win on their own merits. Hence why in the tour they’ll generally hold up if their is a mechanical from one of the leaders because they don’t want to win that way.

700 ml per 30 min on the run

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Love that he was honest about everything and hindsight is always 20/20. 10 lbs in 12 weeks is too much. Agree with others that he would benefit from a coach but I also think he really enjoys the process of learning and tweaking things so he may have to have a few more failures before he succumbs to having a coach again. As to Kona I agree the field looks really deep this year if everyone is healthy but I wouldn't bet against LS being there at the end.

Really well stated Daveconn and 100% agree.


His best Kona performance was under the guidance and tutelage of David Tilbury Davis, who as was pointed out earlier in the thread has been Cody Beals mentor and advisor for many years leading to a fantastic collaboration. Such a shame LS parted ways with DTD after Kona.


Not sure what the next 12 weeks holds for LS before Kona, but hopefully he can reach out to the slew of experts he works with at Garneau, Gatorade, Skechers, etc and in the areas where he faltered yesterday can incorporate experts advice as to what he did wrong and how he can learn and correct moving forward.

This has been said for years about him by countless people.

But he will never benefit from a coach until he's actually coach-able. You can't help someone that doesn't want to be helped.

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^^^^ This, as I said on another thread. The list he compiled and dumped are a pretty strong one. I'm thinking any good coach at this point may also have second thoughts about if he'd actually listen.

I missed watching 90% of the run I was just looking at splits. To me it seems weird looking at them. Like he shut down the bike at 150k and the run around 32k. Obviously if he was glycogen depleted on the bike I would understand, But how the heck does he put down a splits like that on the bike and run then seemingly just drop off twice? The words coming out of his mouth in the post race interview would make you think he was toast on the bike but that doesn't seem to be the case looking at his run splits up till 32k.

You guys have been talking about Sanders gets it all wrong for years, and yet... he still gets it done and it seems from his interview that he knows where he messed up and what he needs to do to correct it. The dude had an extremely sub-par day (by his standards) and still cranked out an 8:24

He'll be fine in Kona.

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I'd strongly argue LS is outperforming what any coach could give him at this point based on his good judgment. I wouldn't have said so in his earliest years where he was making really obvious errors, but ultimately results are what matter most, and you gotta be kidding me if you look at his string of race results in the last year and a half and say he's going wrong. Even this alleged meltdown is pretty freaking awesome - 2nd place and only losing to a historic performance, on your WORST day - jeez, I'd take that any day, regardless of coach or not.

Even if this is the best LS ever gets (2nd at Kona, and his recent string of wins), it's an unabashed success the way he is doing it. Whether it be indoor training, semi to no coached, vlogging, etc.

And a terrible bike fit to add to your list.

This, and he says he lost 10 pounds over 12 weeks.

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"The person on top of the mountain didn't fall there." - unkown

also rule 5

why is his bike fit "terrible"?

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Have you saw him on the bike? In my opinion he needs a larger frame to get him out of the crunch and into a nice aero position.

uh huh.

and yet, he's riding better this year than ever (IMT notwithstanding). So why is it terrible, if he's riding better on it?

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IIRC, he said he planned to drop a frame size after oceanside this year to get more drop (because, Jan) and put an alpha x on the front. I think he's riding a smaller frame than he rode at Kona last year.

Same reason he needs a good coach, to improve his performance.

fast is fast....

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I think there is a good chance that Sanders isn't even in the top five this year.


As someone else said - you could say that about any of the big favorites!

So many variables all up in the air, and only so many you can control in the lead-up to the race and the race itself.

To win in Kona, you have to get all the breaks, and have everything going right for you on the day of. If you are a bit off . . , forget it! And even here, some of the ones who have been most consistent with winning and podium places in Kona say it's about battling through on the B-plan!

LS has been somewhat hot/cold with the full IM racing. He tends to be more consistent at the half/70.3 distance. How he will go in Kona in 7 weeks . . . not sure. he says, he's learned a few BIG lessons from yesterday. It will be interesting to see what those are and how he corrects.

He remains vulnerable on the swim (losing too much time to the group of main contenders), and then on the run - he runs well when he's "on", but when others of the top contenders are "on" as well - chiefly Lange, Frodeno etc . ., they can easily out-run Lionel. So he/we get down to that gambling game of trying to figure out how much of a lead at T2 is "safe"?

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Steve Fleck @stevefleck | Blog

Not fast enough yesterday. Not fast enough at Kona last year. Maybe a coach, a nutritionist and bike fit could make him fast enough next time. All these guys are fast and yes its easy to Monday morning QB which I shall stop with this post.

2nd at IMMT to a first time IM finisher, by 15 minutes. Also, far from his worst day. Nobody is questioning his physiology or his talent, just his decision making process.

And yes. This is all armchair quarterbacking. But the guy is a celebrity in this world and a public figure, so it is expected.

And no athlete can ever "outperform" what a good coach can teach them. That's preposterous

Here is the deal with Lionel, he doesnt need a coach. No one knows him better than himself, and he is one of those guys that just doesnt trust others when it comes to what he believes he knows better than anyone. This is not new or strange, virtually my whole generation self coached and managed themselves, and that was without the internet and all the knowledge base we all provided the current crop of competitors. So if Mark Allen and Dave Scott could do a 8;09 at Kona in 1989 with that knowledge, it should be immensely easier for an athlete with the right demeanor self coach themselves today.

Now to what Lionel is doing, he is doing great. He did need someone to tell him what an idiot he was leading up to this race, losing 10 lbs and 5 of it in the last few days before the race. That was just plain idiotic, and it looks like after the fact he knows this too. But problem is I'm not sure he would have listened to anyone before thinking how lean you are = faster times, just something he needed to learn on his own so that he can now believe it. Guys like him just won't believe others, and rightly so most of the time. But it is that once in awhile where it would have been nice if he were open and the right person was strong enough to be able to get through to him, but like relationship advice(do any of us ever listen to others?) he just needs to figure these things out for himself.

And he has done well along the way, with a steady and continued improvement. He has almost reached the pinnacle of triathlon and had a stellar career. To me his biggest enemy is burnout, can he sustain this pace for 5 more years, even 10?? Others have, but with a little more patience, Lionel wants things done, and he wants them now. This is what makes him such a great athlete to watch, he just goes after whatever he perceives as a flaw and attacks it. Who have we ever seen go from such a hack swimmer to doing an 18;50 LCM ? He defies all past examples, rides and runs with such an unorthodox style, that it just leaves our heads shaking and thinking if only he would listen to me, or that coach. Some people are just uncoachable by others, but that is ok. Mark and Dave and a lot of us did ok that way, trial and error, but always learning more from the errors than the victories.

He should be fine in Kona, unless the vegan thing is just deeper than he let on, or even knows about. But like he said, he has his own records of workouts and training blocs, so if they are good, continue to be good(and better than before) then he probably is on the right track. But he should be ready to adjust that in a moments notice in the next weeks if things go south in training, there really is not much room for error from this point on. And I would have him racing more at 163 or so for Kona, couple lbs lighter than last time, but much higher than this last race. He has acknowledged that 161 was probably the right weight when he weighed in a few days prior, so he is going the right direction..

As much as Lionel is all about learning he continues to be on the path of unhealthy. He tots being ok with not needing a coach or advisers yet he makes rookie mistakes. He's his own governor and yet we have learned time and time again that he's not capable of monitoring himself. I wish more people would recognize that Lionel and his approach is not healthy nor consistent or sustainable, yet we have so any people trying to adapt to it.

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Inside The Big Ring: Podcast & Coaching

someone refill my coffee. I hope ST does not start charing to read threads Lionels name is mentioned in. This was more entertaining than the race it self.

And no athlete can ever "outperform" what a good coach can teach them. That's preposterous

Not really. Not all coaches are a good fit for all athletes, and not all coaches are "good coaches". But it's very hard to know in advance who is a good coach for a particular athlete and who isn't.

as far as decision-making, Sanders appears to make a lot of "mistakes", but he doesn't seem to make the same ones twice. See monty's post, he gets it.

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All of this is extremely true. But at the same time that's what's hard: I WANT to see him dominate and do well all the time but he gets in his own way! He should not be making these types of huge, monumental errors in judgement at his level. Could someone with a real job making a top 1% income in their field get away with the errors he has made? No, they'd be fired.

Not sure why you put "mistakes" in quotes, because they are f***ing MISTAKES. But that's what makes people like him, that he's not afraid to put himself out there. That and the fact that he's Canadian.

Because they may or may not actually be mistakes. They’re experiments, which may or may not pan out, but it’s clear that he does think about them. They’re learning opportunities for him.

I’d wager that he makes fewer mistakes, on average, than virtually anyone on this board or most other pros. He is just more open about them, so it seems like he makes more.

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2020 National Masters Champion - M50-54 - 50m Butterfly

Could someone with a real job making a top 1% income in their field get away with the errors he has made? No, they'd be fired.//

Why would anyone fire someone for getting 2nd?? No one wins all the time, absolutely no one. He made a big mistake yes, but he still collected a pay check, performed for his sponsors who paid him, and I doubt one iota that any of them are nervous about his future.

And you want to see him dominate, that's easy. Just watch him race for the past couple years, that's domination. Every race he goes to, he is the most feared athlete by all the top guys. They know they can beat him on given days, but they also know that there is no room for error, because his dominance is from his consistency. It is very hard to be as consistent as this guy is and to win so many races, but he has done as well as one could imagine. And rest assured he is not done winning, at least until he loses that consistency. That is his weapon, and it forces others to be at the very best on given days to beat him.

Lionel is allowed to make mistakes, just like all of us. Not sure why many want to hold him to a higher standard as a human being. His huge mistake as you put it probably earned him $50 to70K in prize money/salary and bonuses this month. Yea, he should be fired...(-;
[/url]

Missed the forest for the trees.

Tinfoil stuff here but.....

He did very well in Kona last year after racing ITU long distance world champs, which was.......

120k bike and 30km run

The difference between the "old days" and now is huge. First off, Dave had an exercise phys background and both he and Mark were competitive athletes throughout college with access and monitoring with good coaches. Also, the sport was new and no one knew how to train, so they were pioneering. The culture was also different in that all the athletes bounced ideas off of one another and learned from each other. The "new" society is the "me" one and not as open at all as the previous days. LS does not have that contact with others, the scholarly background and he simply has the renegade spirit that makes him not listen, to rebel. It HAS served him well to a degree, but at the pointy end one needs an OBJECTIVE, and experienced mentor. As others state, he makes way too many dumb rookie mistakes for a person at that level. I love his attitude and his openness but he is his own worst enemy as well.

This used to describe me, but I've turned a corner after yesterday. I now feel like I am bearing witness to the real-time waste of an extraordinary, once-in-a-generation talent. Lionel doesn't owe me accomplishment aligned with what I feel his talent justifies, but it's become frustrating watching him throw darts while wearing a blind fold when he should be hitting the bullseye every time.

He reminds me of Macca, who always tried to rationalize away his failure in Kona. He was too heavy, he was too thin, his sweat rate was too high, he wasn't wearing a hear rate monitor, he never drank coke during the marathon, the bike was too easy, the bike was too hard, broken brake cable...

Boo-shit, boo-shit, boo-shit. Yesterday may turn out to be like when Tiger hit the fire hydrant. I hope not, I genuinely like Lionel, and am strongly rooting for him.

No. No. No.

This hypothetical employee is a disaster. They make poor decisions but get good outcomes, and therefore feel that their poor decisions were justified. This can be dangerous or financially ruinous.

The ST population doesn't agree universally on much, yet we all agree that purposefully dropping 5 pounds in the 72 hours prior to a race is fucking stupid.

I would fire this employee in a heartbeat. If they can make such an obvious, egregious mistake is not safe for my company's workplace. Regardless of whether it worked out or not.

ETA: I realize that LS has acknowledged that it was a mistake to do this, but that isn't the point. That he needed to "learn" this mistake is problematic. Additionally, I'm actually quite concerned for him regarding his health and well-being. He was perhaps a bit flippant in the post-race analysis, but **ARMCHAIR DOCTORING HERE** I'm actually quite concerned that he has developed a real eating disorder. I completely hope I am wrong, but if I'm not, I hope that he prioritizes addressing that more so than dialing in his strategy for Kona.

ETA part 2: I'm in the same camp as Eganski. I'd love to see him succeed, but boy is it frustrating to see him get in his own way.

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@adamwfurlong

Or, the other way to look at it is that he's good enough that he can afford to take risks and experiment, learn from those experiences and still have objectively good results even if the result of the experiment isn't what it could be.

You think Garneau / Freshii should drop him because he lost weight and his result at a relatively meaningless (to him) mid-season race wasn't quite as good as it should have been?

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No. I said nothing about his sponsors. The hypothetical scenario was how you handle an employee who made a terrible mistake but still produced a good outcome.

Sponsorship has an entirely different set of criteria about how they evaluate and value relationships.

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@adamwfurlong

So then why the heck are you talking about firing him if he were an employee? If it's not the same thing and it doesn't apply to him, why are you applying that criteria to him?

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2020 National Masters Champion - M50-54 - 50m Butterfly

I think you're exaggerating it wayyyy too much.

Every pro athlete/triathlete has significant ups and downs. We just subject LS to the utmost highest expectations because of his rapid rise coupled with his extreme openness with sharing his training and racing online for all to see, which is a rare treat.

I don't see anything wrong with LS's experimentation, which is within reason. Heck, the MOST important piece (by far) is the training bit, and it looks like he's got that dialed down to the nose, which is super impressive. He managed to figured out how to push to his max without getting sidelined with a race or season-ending injury.

Just think of the number of awesome, respected world-class pros who can't get this right (stress fractures, stress injuries, overtraining, etc.), and thus I think it's unfair to single out LS for lapses in judgment when this one critical area of training is something he's been both improving in AND getting real winning results with year after year now even while pushing himself to the max.

The better analysis is "wow this guy has learned SO much, and gotten SO much right, and his consistently stellar results prove it."

LS also is clearly open to GOOD input. Not armchair QBing, but from respected top coaches. Gerry Rodrigues and other esteemed folks have or are advising him, to good effect. Just because he trusts himself first doesn't mean he's uncoachable or is not listening to experts.

So LS has a coach? You mention a coach, but others say he has no coach?

literally read the very first line of text that I quoted.

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@adamwfurlong

omg Jason, usually you're pretty rational.

I made the comparison that Lionel - in the tri world - is the equivalent of a top earner at a fairly large business. If you have beef with that comparison, or trouble understanding why you would have to put an employee like Lionel on performance review after a shocking number of questionable decision making outcomes, then I don't know what to tell you.

You know, Lionel said that in his post-race interview, but there's another problem he has.

Training is maybe 50% of the battle. The other 50% is nutrition and emotional stability.

How'd he do on the other 50%?

i did.

is your defense that someone else raised it first? if the situation doesn't apply, then it doesn't apply and it's somewhat silly to make the argument that if it did apply, then.....

the guy is supposed to try to push his limits. it's what he does. can't push limits if you don't find out where they are. He made a mistake in dropping that mich weight, but it wasn't a massive failure. I mean, he dropped a few minutes in an IM. big deal, he'll come back from that. It's not like he took up stunt motorcycle riding 2 days before Kona or something....

besides, in business people try things and fail at them all the time. sometimes spectacularly. in hindsight, there are always naysayers who come along and say that it was a terrible idea to begin with. IME, the best companies are the ones who allow for latitude for their employees to fail sometimes, and if the employee is a net contributor (either directly or indirectly) to the bottom line, then they are worth having on the team.

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Swimming Workout of the Day:

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2020 National Masters Champion - M50-54 - 50m Butterfly

I'd say he's doing GREAT.

Seriously, he went vegan to improve his overall lifestyle. The weight loss is likely going to help his running, if not taken too far. Where too far is must be determined by experimentation.

Sure, any armchair QB can look after the race and go 'duh, he lost too much weight right before the race, what an idiot!', but imagine if this had been a 70.3 race and he crushed it (which he likely would have) because he didn't have to go as deep into his tank. ALL of you same guys would be saying 'what a good move weight loss was for him - good for him!"

At the least, it shows both a willingness to take appropriate risk (I'd say figuring this out before his "A" race is very good planning) and a willingness to learn the lessons (no evidence that he's just stubbornly sticking to his erroneous ways despite data against him).

When you're trying to go from #2 at Kona to #1, you're going to have to take some risks and learn from your mistakes while somehow preserving what you have. I'd strongly argue LS has done this wayyyy better than his competitors, hence his string of wins or near-wins compared to what his more experienced and so-called wiser competitors have accomplished.

The vegan dietary change is also a long-term move. Even LS knows it's not going to lead to instant benefits, and he's going to have to adapt to it as best he can while racing well.

Dude is also emotionally solid from what I can see thus far. He's been taking lessons from all his losses, and humbly working on his weaknesses with a long-term goal (like swimming). I haven't seen him go on factless rants even when things don't go his way, and he doesn't get baited into internet battles by his critics despite putting himself fully out there.

he's supposed to WIN.

Don't quote me on this, but as far as I've seen, he has worked with various coaches like Gerry and others, but doesn't have a full-time coach who dictates his training/racing. So more along the line of advisors who are coaches, but I think he's mostly self-coached.

Doesn't mean he's not paying attention though - dude clearly wants to learn from the best, even if it means literally copying Jan Frodeno's equipment setup.

What serious professional triathlete -- or any serious triathlete, for that matter -- seeks to remedy TT handling inadequacy by riding around on a "quite technical", "little narrow" walking path replete with children, dogs, and baby carriages? In aero! And apparently shirtless. He's like a real life marathonrunner, but not as intelligent, because at least marathonrunner wore a shirt and rode on bike paths. Is it not reasonable to expect someone who is inarguably one of the most gifted triathletes of his era not to conduct himself like a forum troll?

His experimentation is not within reason. What triathlete of his caliber and experience thinks intentionally cutting weight in the three days prior to an Ironman is a smart idea?

This person is an utter fool.

Let's delve into this thought a bit.

We see it ALL THE TIME. The idea that if I do "X" performance this year, then to do "X+1" performance I have to do MORE or DIFFERENT training. This idea is a fallacy. Being healthy, consistent, and having mild progression is what makes you better. There is no secret "block" of workouts or "strategy" that re-define how you place in a long distance triathlon. Just doing the same thing, over and over and over, will get you to where you need to be.

Take Cody, for example. Cody did nothing weird or strange in his leadup to his first IM. He did consistent work over a long period of time (years) and executed on race-day. He trusted in the process, and was able to seek advice and counsel when he had questions or needed his path re-directed or altered.

But far too often athletes simply believe that because they want to improve next year they have to CHANGE something. This is simply not true.

Once you're quite good at something, you don't make large percentage leaps anymore. You make tiny, tiny gains. Not through weird shit like sizing down a frame to be more aero.

I don't really have a beef with the comparison, but the obvious follow up is that the guys who sign his paycheque (Garneau / Freshii) should be considering firing him. But they're not, are they??? Because that's well within his scope of responsibility to manage as he sees fit. They would probably fire him if he started posting racist slurs on twitter, or other conduct unbecoming. They would probably let him go if his results slipped to the point where he wasn't getting media exposure for their brands. But for a one time decision, or even a series of one time decisions that aren't what the peanut gallery thinks are the "correct" decisions? When the results he's having indicate that he's still at the top of his game? Don't be ridiculous, you wouldn't fire him, just like you wouldn't fire your top sales guy when he takes a risk and goes after a new market, but only adds 15% to the bottom line instead of the expected 18%.

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Swimming Workout of the Day:

Favourite Swim Sets:

2020 National Masters Champion - M50-54 - 50m Butterfly

Totally disagree.

His bike handling is fine. Sure, he's remarked he didn't feel as comfortable as he should have on it so he should ride outside more, but there's no way he's just tut-tutting on a walking path for his outdoor bike training. You don't win the bike split at world-class IMs by just doing that.

And his experimentation is within reason. When has LS ever had a similar problem with nutritional meltdown on his IM? And it would make sense that he wanted to capitalize on one of the real changes he made to racing, which is cutting down some weight, just to learn from the experience. Clearly he overdid it, but I think it was very important for him to have the experience of actually seeing where than line was, as he's never tested that line before, ever.

Again, all you guys would be saying the complete opposite of your critiques if this had been a 70.3 race and he crushed it (which he likely would have) since it's not as long and depleting as the IM. This whole thread would be full of "wow, look how great weight loss is even for already-thin pros, even around race day!"

Are we talking about the same guy Jan Frodeno trounced at Oceanside who subsequently attributed Frodo's use of Speedplay pedals as a material factor in the beatdown? The guy who then tried to fit himself prior to St. George with horrendous results?

He regresses as much as he progresses. It's maddening, really

I think he finished like 29th at Kona 2016? Was that meltdown caused by anything in particular? Pretty sure he was like 14th in 2015. And then he made a huge re-bound last year and finished 2nd. He is a great athlete for sure, but I think he could be even greater if he would get some solid help with things like bike fit and nutrition.

OMG YES!!

Kona 2015 and 2017

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blog

Jan Frodeno did something very similar last year (went vegan and was obviously too thin - not saying one is a result of the other, so chill vegans) with similar results at Kona. Yet he largely gets a pass because he faked an injury and isn’t open at all with his training or methodologies or anything like Lionel is.

I guess my point with that was that Lionel wouldn’t get nearly the shit he does on here if he wasn’t so open. But then he wouldn’t be the huge brand he is either.

And using Cody as an example of other pros probably isn’t a good representation of other pros. I doubt many are as analytical as Cody. I’m sure lots of pros make just as stupid decisions as Lionel does all the time.

He just posted an interview after IMMT and basically said he is to lean. Basically, he said he screwed up.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EO6Gp3Yp6Y8

Chance this thread shoots up as fast as Ashley thread.

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808 > NYC > PDX > YVR
2024 Races: Taupo

Yes, Lionel is definitely more open than most pros. That's a hard thing to do and be, so kudos to him for that. At the same time, it invites wayyyy more criticism. But it's made him a household name (well, in our world) and he's extremely well liked and is very likeable.

Cody is not more analytical than most pros, I don't think. He is on the more analytical side of the spectrum of professional triathletes. I used him as a comparison because they are adherents to opposite ends of a process spectrum.

Frodo doesn't get a "pass."

He's too lean, he's too heavy, not enough glycogen, his bike's too big, his body snakes too much when he rides hard, he has a hitch in his stride, he abandons his swim form, his bike handling is poor, his bottles aren't aero, his pedals aren't Speedplay, he rides outdoors too much, he doesn't ride outdoors enough... boo-shit, boo-shit, boo-shit, boo-shit.

I don't care if Lionel goes Vegan before Kona or goes black and doesn't go back, my frustration stems from my belief that if Lionel had a core group of similar advisors like Frodeno and Gomez, he'd be hot shit on a silver platter, about to win his 2nd Ironman World Championship, likely his 2nd of 7 or 8. Instead he's cold diarrhea on a paper plate.

And Texas 2017/2016?

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https://twitter.com/mungub

So I wonder...if he knew that the course was going to use regular gatorade and not Gatorade Endurance. Which according to him caused to GI issues...why did he not switch to regular gatorade two weeks out? If the intent is to just use on course nutrition...you're a pro, call the RD and find out early enough you can communicate effectively with Gatorade on what you need.

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Washed up footy player turned Triathlete.

As to Kona I agree the field looks really deep this year if everyone is healthy but I wouldn't bet against LS being there at the end.


I agree.


Any of the top guys could finish out of the top 5 positions on a given day but I wouldn't count LS out by any means. He said his training results have been excellent so dials in his nutrition, he'll be ready to go. Personally, I think he should stop weighing himself every morning.

I wholeheartedly disagree with you here. Lionel grew up playing organized sports (basketball) and he was also a cross country runner. If he has been the way he is now, thirsty for knowledge, there is no reason to believe he didn't learn a great deal from those two coaching opportunities. Certainly enough to become self aware and self critical. Exercise physiology is not rocket science. It's a fairly simple equation of

One thing many of the comments on here is forgetting is Cody Beals set a course record and Lionel had a bad day. I think it's fair to say those two elements are the real factors here. If Lionel even had a good day and Cody had this good of a performance there is still a low likelihood he would have been able to make up that gap. Cody had something to prove to himself and he used the fear of Lionel chasing him down + the excitement of racing a new format to propel him to a new level.

Congrats to Cody and to Lionel on a great day on home soil! It's great to see them racing head to head once again

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"Train so you have no regrets @ the finish line"

I like Lionel quite a bit.

The endurance sport world is full of incredibly boring athletes who never say anything interesting. They show up and win, make some forgettable statement and you barely remember them a year later.

Why was Muhammad Ali so exciting to watch? Certainly his boxing ability was part of it. But just as much or more was his politics, his braggadocio, his charisma, his wit and his appearance. There was no way to have no opinion about Mr. Ali. You loved him or hated him. Strong opinions.

Viewers don't want boring wins or boring athletes. They want controversy and drama and to be able to heckle their favorite athletes and cheer for them and cry for them.

Lionel Sanders is one of those athletes. He has such a strange and unique and magnetic personality and he shares it with the world. It creates strong opinions which is wonderful.

We don't need anymore boring reserved endurance athletes. We need people who can become superstars.

You guys have been talking about Sanders gets it all wrong for years, and yet... he still gets it done and it seems from his interview that he knows where he messed up and what he needs to do to correct it. The dude had an extremely sub-par day (by his standards) and still cranked out an 8:24


He'll be fine in Kona.


I agree. I'm amazed how many have been completely wrong about LS year after year, and continue to doubt him over and over again. He has a "bad race" (how many people in the world have a bad race and get 8:24) because of some poor nutrition choices and now has a good amount of recovery time in advance of Kona. His training, according to him, has been excellent so if he corrects the food issues (and stops weighing himself) I predict he'll be right there again.

I'm a gambling man, and LS fan, but I think that the competition is solid and ANYTHING can go wrong on any given day.

So, if you're willing to keep this, I'll bet you $100 (so you win $200) that LS doesn't podium. Yes?

Might want to remember this quote:

"He who lives by the crystal ball soon learns to eat ground glass."

How many on this tread would have thought no podium last year for Frodeno
Or Hillary, Brexit, etc

Fun to speculate though!

So, if you're willing to keep this, I'll bet you $100 (so you win $200) that LS doesn't podium. Yes? //

Well my bet was thrown out to Fishbum, but he answered every other post except mine, so I guess he wasn't ready to put his money where his mouth is. Here is what he had to say;

In my opinion Kona shaping up to be an awesome race this year. I think there is a good chance that Sanders isn't even in the top five this year.

So since he didn't step up, I will offer to you the same deal, and take your offer for the C note on Lionel hitting the top 5 this year(at 2-1 and you get the entire field against my one lone guy). This is your virtual hand shake, and you can ask SH if I pay my debts... Well, at least the one out of 5 years I lost to him of course!!!! (-;

This all assumes he starts the race of course, if he gets hit by a car before or a meteor hits him, then it is a no bet...

One change and I’m all in: I thought the podium was only top 3 (that’s what it’s been at the only 70.3s I’ve done). So, I’ll give you the top 4 spots. The 5th spot is a “push” and any below I win.

I agree with your “must start to count”.

If that works for you, then let’s do it.

And to be clear, I’m rooting for him. Talked with him at St.G70.3 and he I think he is a super talent and fun for the sport. But I’m also a degenerate gambler, so... lol

But I’m also a degenerate gambler, so.

1. So, pot meet kettle!!! You and I should go to Vegas sometime!! I accept your terms, now lets start talking Kona and get off this AH bullshit!

Hahaha!! I haven’t even read the AH post. Saw it when it first started and said “nope, not for me.”

Vegas: think about the St.G70.3...or at least showing up for it. I have a golf house in Mesquite, and head over then and race (used very loosly), golf and gamble. It’s a tough life. We can discuss in PM.

Kona! Kona! Kona! (Said like “toga” from Animal House)

I have a golf house in Mesquite//

Last time I was in Mesquite was probably25 to 30 years ago. And all I remember is that it was New Years eve, and I hit one of my 3 royal flushes of my life that night(discounting online poker). And being the sucker I was, I had money on the sucker bet that paid 800 to 1 !!! As I recall I had a few bucks on it, and that paid for whatever trip I was on at the time. You know you are a gambler when you remember hands you played, but have no recollection why you were there, what else happened, and who you even went with!!! I'm in!!!

Now take the flip side of this...maybe it is BECAUSE he doesn't have all those, that he IS hot shit on a silver platter. Self-coached athletes can at times do as well as with a coach, or better, depending if they had a bad coach or not. Who knows, maybe someone like a Sutto would totally destroy him and he'd never be where he is today. We don't know. He's doing just fine on his own, given he barely lost the WC by what amounts to a thread over 140.6 miles.

ROFL!!! OMG, his wife Erin will be really pissed!!!

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"Anyone can be who they want to be IF they have the HUNGER and the DRIVE."

Lionel went from a Medium to a small frame...so, he should probably go back up.

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Washed up footy player turned Triathlete.

Lol.

Not trying to bash the guy in this thread I just truly think the field is so stacked this year that if he continues to make the same mistakes there's a real chance he's not where he should be talent-wise.

I'd like to see you and Lionel in the Octagon, man that would be AWESOME!!!
The question is, after the fight, REGARLDLESS of the outcome, do you shake his hand and bury the hatchet, or do you still walk around with your Jilted Lover Hate on.

He and I have had some really positive interactions, most recently at St. George 70.3. (Here and Here)

Hahahahaha

Whoa you really are a creepy Lionel fan!

bwahahahahahaha

Since I was hurt and it was Cinco de Mayo, my buddy and I (in support of our friends who did the race) donned the Sombreros. We had a better interaction with LS...such as this pic.

You win today's edition of the internet.

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Favorite Gear: Dimond | Cadex | Desoto Sport | Hoka One One

I just watched that clip. That’s stuff I’d say to a good friend who knows that I’m just razzing. I hope they’re friends irl, cuz if not ... we’ll...


it reeks of insecurity in ones own abilities.

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Swimming Workout of the Day:

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Just chiming in to say I’ve missed you.

Carry on,

Scott

Kiley can correct me if I’m wrong but I think he dubbed that over an existing video.

But it’s arguably more funny if I’m wrong.

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Favorite Gear: Dimond | Cadex | Desoto Sport | Hoka One One

You are wrong.

Or it sounds like any sporting even I have ever been to. Have you not ever been to a hockey game while living in Canada?

I expect it at the major team sports, where it's "us vs them". It's out of place at a triathlon, running race, or similar event.

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Swimming Workout of the Day:

Favourite Swim Sets:

2020 National Masters Champion - M50-54 - 50m Butterfly

Stop repeating that piece of BS. There's photographic evidence that Jan was probably trolling regarding the vegan thing, because he can be seen eating meat and/or fish.
Also, he was carrying a significant injury into Kona which flared up during the bike leg.

Seriously, that Jan Vegan line needs to die.

He was cutting weight hours before an IM Race. Let that sink in. Read your own comment again. If you still think you/LS might be right, there's no hope for you.

:-)

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Favorite Gear: Dimond | Cadex | Desoto Sport | Hoka One One

I just watched the video that Lionel Sanders posted after this most recent race on YouTube. As we've all noted he's way too lean and he briefly even touches on possibly having a slight and I reiterate slight eating disorder. He says all the right things and acts like he's going to make the corrections but his body language says something entirely different.IMO! This is going to be a issue!!!!!!

Much like the Jan and carrying a significant injury into Kona and flared up on the bike BS...

His latest vid is out:

Cool to see him using the resistance wheel on the city paths: https://www.dcrainmaker.com/...rhub-resistance.html

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https://www.strava.com/athletes/nbrowne1

His feet looked super beat up! Also, his form wasn't looking so hot in alot if those clips... Still wide knees riding & the old run gait (just say'n).

Well he learnt from his weight experience, don't fix what aint broken...

Training at such a level is going to be hard on your body. His wide knees and his hitch are not going away anytime soon as those are hard problems to fix overnight. It will surely be interesting to see how he does in Kona this year. I for one am ready to get the show on the road but we have a ways yet.

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Didn’t cancellara have wide knees etc too? Never saw anyone comment on his knees...

No I was perfect 👌

It is indeed very real! Or someone out of nowhere get the win. This is the cool thing about the sport you really never now. Logic says Frodo, Gomez and Lange will fight for top 3! But as last year you never know who will feel good or feel bad or a flat. Last year 3rd place was almost unknown!

Just wanted to bump this.

Not bad.

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Washed up footy player turned Triathlete.

Not bad at all, I never had him in my top 5 either though.

If only you didn’t have a tadpole ass to back up that wolverine mouth. Could have been in some $$ (and bragging rights for A YEAR over Monty).

Haha I know. That could have been epic!
I also wasn't expecting it to be that crazy.

I had it top 2 or 20+

so pretty much what I though before the race.

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The entire event (IM) is like "death by 1000 cuts" and the best race is minimizing all those cuts and losing less blood than the other guy. - Dev