It has to be thicker than 5 mm because the rubber around the virtual pull buoy is already 5 mm, but interestingly enough QR steers clear of coming right out and saying it is >5mm. At least Emilio is up front. Any ITU guys using VPB technology? I bet not, cause they'd get nailed by the officials, but I may be wrong. Following text from QRoo website:

We all know how pull buoys work when in the pool doing laps and training. The Superfull uses what we’ve patented as a Virtual Pull Buoy (“VPB”). Once you try it, you will understand it. It feels like you are taking a corner at 70 mph, instead of a boat taking a wide turn. Being able to rotate on your axis in the water makes you swim faster, with less effort. What does that mean? It means you burn fewer calories and keep your heart rate lower. It means that you swim with greater economy than without a wetsuit.

Okay Brian, Dev just posted the info on the QR. Do you think that section is 5 or under?

From CA70.3 Athlete Information Guide

Swim Course Rules and Instructions

"7. Wetsuits must be 5mm thick or less."

If they outlaw the Water Rover and don't outlaw the Superfull with VPB, then Emilio should be all over this. Moreover, if they don't outlaw the Superful with VPB, everyone is going to be lined up at the local dive shop to get their own VPB patched into their current wetsuit between crotch and hips....

Not say I like it, but I if the VPB is thicker than 5 mm and they cut out Emilio's Water Rover, then there needs to be equal treatment across the board and that includes inspection for home made modifications...

Dev

I'm going to glue in 20 camelbak bladders to the chest of my suit.
Do you think anyone will notice the blue drink tubes coming out the sleeves of my suit?

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persequetur vestra metas furiose

...you'd be nailed for "flotation device"....on the other hand, the made at home VPB patch job to an existing suit is "needed for warmth" for those who exeperience more shrinkage than others and as such it would be a safety need.

The above post should be done in pink....

Dev

Until someone has proven the QR is 5 or under, based on their own website posting, it seems fair to assume it is over 5. With this assumption, I have asked many times before, why are folks not going after QR and their VPB, like they are going after the WR? (Sorry to ask another question about logic. :o) )

Wonder why not one person has responded about my questions did WTC follow their own rules for a rule change? When these folks get what they want, even if rules are ignored, they are silent. But, if they do not like something, screw the rules, all that maters is they get what they want.

Dave

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Dave Campbell | Facebook | @DaveECampbell | h2ofun@h2ofun.net

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Lions don't lose sleep worrying about the sheep

One could also say if you can't take the cold water, don't do the race.......


Also really what does the thickness have to do with it, shouldn't it be the overall buoyancy of the suit?

isn't the 2XU elite wetsuit also larger than 5mm at the legs with those "propulsion panels"????

I can't imagine that would help you at all. Actually I think it would hinder your performance since that would more than likely send your legs deep under water. Unless you are a contortionist? :)

I don't see this wetsuit thickness situation as much different from the drafting rule, for which the enforcement is not perfect. Assume a 7m rule. You could ride a 6.9m or at 7.1m and get a penalty in both cases, or not. It is left to the judgment call of the referee. With regard to the the Water Rover, the referee's job is made easier as the wetsuit is clearly over the 5mm limit. As for people adding patches to their wetsuit, hiding the Water Rover label or knowingly using a thicker wetsuit and hoping not to get caught, they are no better than Finman (or the athletes stating that one is not drafting until caught by a referee).

Agreed x3.

The squabble between USAT and WTC will keep hurting our sport.

In the long term it looks like big race organizers (like WTC) will be able to force their rules and I don't think USAT is standing a fighting chance unless they get their act together and make clean concise rules together with the big players like WTC.

On a more somber note, it looks like WTC is just flexing their muscles and and show USAT that they really don't need them if push comes to shove.

The sad thing is that right now this is all played out on the back of the athletes who don't know what the rules are at the next race they are attending.

I am really looking forward to bringing (on top of a couple different types of wetsuits) three different bikes to my next race.
Maybe they could have a lottery on what rules to follow the morning of the race.
That would be the good old pioneering spirit!

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Ego numquam pronuncio mendacium,
sed sum homo salvaticus

If Emilio did his due diligence (and from what I read he did over a number of years) and ensured that this suit was in compliance with WTC/USAT rules and that they didn't see these rules changing and then all of a sudden a RD who is using USAT rules/insurance etc. decides they are illegal, I would have an issue with that. Not just as a competitor but more from a consumer point of view.
I can only imagine the 1000's of dollars of money Emilio has sunk into this new product and if all of a sudden RD's start saying on their own that you can't use them at their races, when their governing body has stated they are fine, then I see very bad things for DeSoto sports. Especially in this economy. I would hate to see one of the leaders in tri-apparel be taken down by something like this.
Sure rules change and sports evolve but it really looks like he acted in a very responsible way in this matter.

http://www.ironmancalifornia.com/2010IMCHAI.pdf

Page 9, point 7:
"7. Wetsuits must be 5mm thick or less."

"Page 9, point 7:
"7. Wetsuits must be 5mm thick or less.""

ah, silly me for looking for a rule in the rules section ;-)

TABLE OF CONTENTS
Message from the Race Director..............................................................3
Message from the Head Referee..............................................................4
Schedule of Events................................................................................5
Pre-Race Information.............................................................................6
Race Day Information............................................................................7
Swim Course........................................................................................9
Bike Course..........................................................................................10
Bike Shipping & Bike Tech Information.....................................................13
Run Course..........................................................................................15
Course Maps........................................................................................16
Rules..................................................................................................18
Medical...............................................................................................21
Post-Race Information..........................................................................23
Qualifying for the 2010 Foster Grant Ironman World Championship 70.3
& the 2010 Ford Ironman World Championship.........................................24
Sponsors.............................................................................................25

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Dan Empfield
aka Slowman

 

Why are the WTC corporate overlords dictating this? Do they have an axe to grind with Emilio?

"If Emilio did his due diligence (and from what I read he did over a number of years) and ensured that this suit was in compliance with WTC/USAT rules and that they didn't see these rules changing and then all of a sudden a RD who is using USAT rules/insurance etc. decides they are illegal, I would have an issue with that."

so that you know: this is precisely what happened. a year ago and more, emilio called and asked me about wetsuit legality, and, specifically the question of this sort of suit. i told him what i tell every manufacturer (and there have been a lot of these sorts of phone calls to me), and this advice i give has stood me in good stead for better than a decade: call charlie. this emilio did. several times over the course of several months.

what now we see is this: i can't give that advice any longer; and wtc no longer asks usat for rule dispensations; it makes up whatever rules it wants, when it wants.

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Dan Empfield
aka Slowman

I agree completely and I hope everything turns out all right for him.

As to local race directors just imposing whatever rules they may want, or having rules change, it just sucks, not only for the merchants in our industry, but for those of us in the market for tri gear. If Calif 70.3 does impose this rule, it is definitely not good for our sport.

Here's another analogy. For many years 5 rear cogs was the standard on a bike. (Yes, I'm that old.) When 6 gears became available, what if the race director of a major race declared that more than 5 speeds is against the rules, even when the governing body had decided against such a declaration. At least that rule would be enforceable since it is far easier to count cogs than to measure wetsuit thickness.

Being in the market for my first new wetsuit, I'm looking to get the fastest one legal. What do I buy? I don't know anymore what is legal and what isn't, or if what is legal now will be legal next year.

Victor

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i would be very interested hearing the story behind this rule change. If the WTC is globally changing this to all their races, I am done with them, for good.
I will be happy to hear this is a one off thing.
Mark

Is it WTC doing it globally or is is just the local RD (Roch and Huddle?) unilaterally deciding this? Or did the guys printing the athlete guide just assume that the wetsuit thickness is 5 mm, because for most, that is the general perception even though USAT has no limits.

If there is a 5mm limite I want the QRoo VPB measured up as well as some of the 2XU suits. No point singling out Emilio on this issue...there are other parties who are perhaps equally "guilty" of going passed the 5 mm rule and driving up the buoyancy of their suits, but they keep it somewhat under the radar with marketing speak rather than spitting out the actual panel thickness.

Dev

Interesting thoughts. I would email the RD's and specificially ask them for complete list of approved wetsuits and the list of wetsuits that do not meet their criteria. How else would the rule be enforced?

USAT makes it easy for Helmets, look for the sticker. How do I know if my 4 year websuit meets this criteria of 5MM, beats me? Do I rip it apart and measure a select sections and patch it back up?

Large areas of the Water Rover are constructed of 2mm rubber. On the pullover for instance, the entire torso and shoulders are 2mm rubber. On the bibjohn from the straps to the crotch, front and back are 2mm rubber. Certain areas of the wetsuit are constructed with 5, 8, and 10mm rubber. The 5mm rule only applies if the entire suit is constructed of 5mm+ rubber

The AmericanPeople have determined that the Water Rover is legal for all USAT and WTC races. Don’t worry about it. Enjoy your race.

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**All of these words finding themselves together were greatly astonished and delighted for assuredly, they had never met before**

i would be very interested hearing the story behind this rule change. If the WTC is globally changing this to all their races, I am done with them, for good.

Please tell this stance has more to do with the "selectively changing rules on a whim" issue, rather than not being allowed to wear a 7mm wettie?

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blood, sweat...and big gears

I hated every minute of training, but I said, ''Don't quit. Suffer now and live the rest of your life as a champion.''
- Muhammad Ali

If the WTC is globally changing this to all their races, I am done with them, for good.
______________________

I'll apologize in advance .... but I thought you were already through with them and didn't do their races anymore???? Maybe you hadn't said "for good" previously and I just missed that???

Dave:-)

I did race Lake Placid last year as part of a charity (Race4Kids.ca). I would still someday like to go back to that particular race and race well at it but some key areas of the race will have to change before I do.
Something like this would likely seal the deal for me though. But I will certainly reserve that kind of judgement until I hear the whole story.