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Re: De Soto Water Rover-not at Calif 70.3? [rcmioga] [ In reply to ]
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Yep, yep, and yep

Dave Campbell | Facebook | @DaveECampbell | h2ofun@h2ofun.net

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Re: De Soto Water Rover-not at Calif 70.3? [h2ofun] [ In reply to ]
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Come on we all know that WTC trumps USAT. When WTC asks USAT to bark, they do. If WTC left USAT, USAT would be defunct in <2 years.

Brian Stover USAT LII
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Re: De Soto Water Rover-not at Calif 70.3? [rcmioga] [ In reply to ]
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Not sure what point you think I missed ;-). I'm not self righteous about the WR, I think its fine, but I'm also not surprised that a wetsuit that was illegal in some races both US and abroad when it was first put on the market (Desoto said as much) is now the subject of complaint by people that bought it because its not legal in a race they want it for.

Styrrell
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Re: De Soto Water Rover-not at Calif 70.3? [smtyrrell99] [ In reply to ]
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I agree we need rules. BUT, this implies you agree that the processes the rules state that must be followed to make a change are used? The rules state that any change from the standard USAT rules must be submitted to USAT in writing, and Skip has to approve. Do you not think it is strange Skip told me he has seen no request in writing from WTC about a change like this, let alone he approved it. Is it not strange Dan posted it is not in the general WTC rules?

Dave Campbell | Facebook | @DaveECampbell | h2ofun@h2ofun.net

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Re: De Soto Water Rover-not at Calif 70.3? [h2ofun] [ In reply to ]
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Are you okay with this? If so, then WTC should not say they are related to ANYTHING about USAT!!

Honestly, I don't really care about it, certainly not enough to warrant caps lock and exclamation points. I enjoy training and racing. I am relatively sure none of my gear is illegal, I pay my entry fees, go race, hang out in the parking lot afterwards, then go home. If something I am wearing or riding is deemed illegal, they can disqualify me if they would like and my conscience will be perfectly clear knowing I had no malicious intent to cheat or deceive.

Relax, it's just a hobby, it's gonna be alright.



Portside Athletics Blog
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Re: De Soto Water Rover-not at Calif 70.3? [h2ofun] [ In reply to ]
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I know you just like to argue, Dave, I don't have any love for 5mm thickness but that has been the standard for years so the easiest thing to do if there is going to be a global standard is go with 5mm. If we were to pick a new one I would vote for 3mm, so there you go. I would add if you don't care about age group awards, hawaii slots, nationals/worlds qualifying then wear whatever you want. Wear fins with finman if you want. I ride my disc whenever possible, unless I'm at Hawaii where it is not legal, hmm special rules for one race... haven't heard the outrage over that rule yet, I've done windier races in my disc. Why not have a fairing around the back wheel, let's just have the frame overlap it that should reduce drag, let's create a fairing around the entire cockpit, that would reduce drag. Let's also put some retractable wheels on our running shoes, why should we actually have to run downhill... :)

I don't understand USAT's stance that they just can't control or police suits. If they set the policy manufacturers will fall in line and make suits to meet the policy. There won't be much policing to be done. If there are known suits that don't meet the guidelines, such as the water rover then if you are caught in one you are DQ'd. I think from there it would be a self policing issue among athletes. Would you line up in a 10mm suit know it doesn't meet standards? Also they are trying to monitor speedsuits by having a list of approved suits that go through a verified approval process, why shouldn't wetsuits be any different.

MC


http://www.mctriguy.blogspot.com
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Re: De Soto Water Rover-not at Calif 70.3? [desert dude] [ In reply to ]
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That might be true, but it does not change the point that folks are talking about rules. Right or wrong, the rules state WTC must submit a change like this to USAT in writing, and Skip as to sign. I do not care if it is a rubber stamp, are you saying it is okay for WTC to ignore this rule for what the process agreed to between WTC and USAT is? I wonder if they got an approval from Skip on the no bike shoes on the bikes in transistion.

Dave Campbell | Facebook | @DaveECampbell | h2ofun@h2ofun.net

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Lions don't lose sleep worrying about the sheep
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Re: De Soto Water Rover-not at Calif 70.3? [h2ofun] [ In reply to ]
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Am I surprised that new technology that came out in the off season is being debated prior to one of the very first races of the season. Nope not at all. I really wish a cohesive set of rules would be followed, but anyone who knows anything about the relationship between USAT and WTC and the organization of both can't be too surprised that there is some confusion.

Styrrell
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Re: De Soto Water Rover-not at Calif 70.3? [h2ofun] [ In reply to ]
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Dave,
Why is your tail in such a knot over this??? We know you don't do WTC races and you got 15% off on your WR ... so what's the concern for you ;-)
Dave
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Re: De Soto Water Rover-not at Calif 70.3? [MCHammers] [ In reply to ]
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Nope, I cannot stand to argue, especially when it is just opinions. But, I do strongly believe that if you have rules, they should be followed, and this means all of them, or none of them.

Oh well, since so far all I have seen posted are opinions, but no answers to my questions from the data I have gotten talking to the various folks that own these rules, shall be interesting to see how this plays out.

Since my back is now out for the 3rd time, racing is the last thing on my mind, but I do hope that our sport can at least be above board following rules. Now, since Worlds screwed my family not following rules, guess this is a hope that is just a joke in real life.

Got to work on my taxes today. Wonder how many new rules I can make up here to help me. :o)

Dave Campbell | Facebook | @DaveECampbell | h2ofun@h2ofun.net

Boom Nutrition code 19F4Y3 $5 off 24 pack box | Bionic Runner | PowerCranks | Velotron | Spruzzamist

Lions don't lose sleep worrying about the sheep
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Re: De Soto Water Rover-not at Calif 70.3? [h2ofun] [ In reply to ]
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You know it's not really a rule change since USAT doesn't have a rule to change!

MC


http://www.mctriguy.blogspot.com
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Re: De Soto Water Rover-not at Calif 70.3? [dcsxtri10] [ In reply to ]
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The principal. I have no issues doing WTC races. They are the best. And yes, if I return my WR, it would cost me more to replace with a new T1, since I already sold my old one for $100 bucks.

But, this is why I try to not get involved with stuff like this, since most could care less about rules, unless it is to their advantage.

Dave Campbell | Facebook | @DaveECampbell | h2ofun@h2ofun.net

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Lions don't lose sleep worrying about the sheep
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Re: De Soto Water Rover-not at Calif 70.3? [MCHammers] [ In reply to ]
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There is no limit with USAT. Adding one would be a rule change.

Dave Campbell | Facebook | @DaveECampbell | h2ofun@h2ofun.net

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Lions don't lose sleep worrying about the sheep
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Re: De Soto Water Rover-not at Calif 70.3? [SwBkRn44] [ In reply to ]
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Tri geometry bikes are not UCI legal. Beam bikes (Softride, Titan Flex) are not UCI legal.
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Re: De Soto Water Rover-not at Calif 70.3? [Karl] [ In reply to ]
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I'm glad to see this rule. Good job Roch and Huddle.

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Re: De Soto Water Rover-not at Calif 70.3? [Alex M] [ In reply to ]
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Do not try to use logic and data. :o)

Dave Campbell | Facebook | @DaveECampbell | h2ofun@h2ofun.net

Boom Nutrition code 19F4Y3 $5 off 24 pack box | Bionic Runner | PowerCranks | Velotron | Spruzzamist

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Re: De Soto Water Rover-not at Calif 70.3? [Alex M] [ In reply to ]
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Tri geometry bikes are not UCI legal.

You sure about that? Pretty sure the same P3s that get raced in the Tour are the ones I see at triathlons. They have the 5mm rule in relation to the bottom bracket, but they are the same bikes.

Beam bikes (Softride, Titan Flex) are not UCI legal.

You're right there, there are some exceptions to rules. That said, how have sales of those bikes done? UCI compliance may not be required, but it certainly establishes legitimacy.



Portside Athletics Blog
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Re: De Soto Water Rover-not at Calif 70.3? [h2ofun] [ In reply to ]
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The principal.
_______
I can respect that .... but I guess its sort of like pornography... we can all see it differently. I think most competitors would have no issue with a 5mm rule and ultimately there needs to be a decision that everyone might not agree with. I would respect WTC making rules for their events and certainly I would be fine with this one....good that not many people have purchased WRs ( at least if they want to do WTC or a lot of other events).

Dave
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Re: De Soto Water Rover-not at Calif 70.3? [SwBkRn44] [ In reply to ]
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As someone who's a FOP swimming I think it's silly that people get their pants up in a tizzy about the wetsuits bit have a run what you brung attitude on the bike. Either let people where what they want as far as wetsuits go....or ban them completely.

I wish they would drop the temp before they are out. It's hard to argue that it's a warmth thing when you have the upper temp limit at bath water temp.

As was pointed out you can't wear them in open water swimming races unless you're in an "aided" class, regardless of the water temp. Water has to be pretty freaking cold before it's a safety problem. A whole bunch of us are swimming Alcatraz in June sans wetsuit for the open water race, so even what we consider to be super cold can be done. There are only a very few races where the water temp is low enough that you really need to wear them.
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Re: De Soto Water Rover-not at Calif 70.3? [smtyrrell99] [ In reply to ]
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Dave any sport needs rules

I am only going to post once here and confine my comments to the rules only. I am not one of those rule-weenie's but, triathlon never looks good in these sorts of circumstances. It looks silly, actually. We have cowboy rules with rules all over the place in different places with exceptions here and exceptions there. What I would like to see as both a competitor and as a manufacturer is some unity on rules - across the board and across all jurisdictions. Other sports can do this, why not triathlon?



Steve Fleck @stevefleck | Blog
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Re: De Soto Water Rover-not at Calif 70.3? [dcsxtri10] [ In reply to ]
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I have my opinions about technology that is used in our sport. But that is not the question I have and will continue to ask. If WTC followed their rules, and has a signed document from Skip that USAT approves changes to the USAT wetsuit rules, then great. If not, this is what I am asking. Did WTC follow their rule change process, and can these show this signed document to us? Now, if WTC really cared about the swim leg, they would either eliminate them completely, or lower the temp. To put a rule in place that cannot be enforced is just well, I have my opinion on this also. :o)

Dave Campbell | Facebook | @DaveECampbell | h2ofun@h2ofun.net

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Lions don't lose sleep worrying about the sheep
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Re: De Soto Water Rover-not at Calif 70.3? [indytri] [ In reply to ]
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I think wetsuits ARE needed in triathlon in many cold weather conditions....although 5 mm is likely overkill. You can't use your "open water swimmer" as your gauge for cold resistance and there being no need for wetsuits....few of these guys are 4% body fat. Many would not likley finish the run. We're talking about a different category of athlete participating in triathlon.

Some neoprene is needed for safety in cold, for the secondary reason that many triathletes cannot apply enough power to the water to generate sufficient body heat to keep themselves warm in the cold (remember 20% efficiency, so if you are only generating 100W of power in the water, you're only generating 400W of heat....whereas a proficient swimmer might be able to generate another 1000W of heat (assume that the proficient swimmer is chugging along generating 250W of propulsive action with arms and legs....)...that's a big diff in keeping oneself warm.

The harder the athlete can go, the warmer they are going to stay in cold water. MOP and BOP triathletes just can't generate enough heat to keep themselves warm without a wetsuit, especially if they are lean runner types....they'll get winded first.
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Re: De Soto Water Rover-not at Calif 70.3? [desert dude] [ In reply to ]
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Can someone measure the Virtual Pull Buoy on a QR suit if they have one? I believe it is over 5 mm

http://quintanarootri.com/...rfull/superfull.html
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Re: De Soto Water Rover-not at Calif 70.3? [Fleck] [ In reply to ]
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In Reply To:
Dave any sport needs rules

I am only going to post once here and confine my comments to the rules only. I am not one of those rule-weenie's but, triathlon never looks good in these sorts of circumstances. It looks silly, actually. We have cowboy rules with rules all over the place in different places with exceptions here and exceptions there. What I would like to see as both a competitor and as a manufacturer is some unity on rules - across the board and across all jurisdictions. Other sports can do this, why not triathlon?

I agree 100%
In other sports, rule changes are made before the year begins, this gives all competitors a level playing field for how they choose to invest their equipment-dollars. Rules changes once the season or "year" has begun simply reeks of potential corruption, which in turn makes people much less likely to want to be part of that sport, or they simply accept the idea that the process is corrupt, and then you go down the path of fighting fire with fire, and in this instance that just means taking your Xterra to the local wetsuit repair and having a 7mm panel sewn in.

Be forthright in your rulings as a sanctioning body, and you give the athletes a reason to follow suit. Start acting in a potentially corrupt manner, and then its every athlete for him/herself. The limit at that point is based solely on creativity and guile.

And please, let's be adult enough to accept responsibility for our own actions. this means if you get caught cheating, own it.
If you purchased a wetsuit, own that responsibility as well.
nobody likes a crybaby, you just make the rest of us look bad.



persequetur vestra metas furiose
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Re: De Soto Water Rover-not at Calif 70.3? [devashish_paul] [ In reply to ]
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OK, hear me out. You can't just DQ someone cause they have a water rover label. That's not an objective measure of the rule. If the rule says 5 mm at maximum thickness, someone from USAT has to come out with a set of calipers and measure on the spot and would actually need to do this with any wetsuit worn by EVERY competitor as each individual could easily cut out an old wetsuit and glue in a patch of neoprene approximately 1 square foot in diameter to raise the hips (like a "virtual pull buoy").

To be completely open, I have watched this from a distance. If thicker wetsuits are allowed by USAT (just like P3's or fast wheels), then the arms race is on, and I don't want to give away free speed to my competition. I have not purchased a Water Rover yet as I want to see how the rules shake out. I have even asked Steve Fleck at Nineteen to make me a prototype, but they won't untill the rules settle down and they may never just because the rest of the world seems to dictate a 5 mm limit (although there is zero enforcement, and I'd argue that there are several suits on the market already over the limit if you take the calipers to the thickest part....). Here in Canada 5mm is the limit, but I don't just race in Canada, in fact, of the races I do in Canada, none are sanctioned by Triathlon Canada, so in theory all the races I am doing aside from Ironman France have no wetsuit thickness limit.

Intellectually speaking, going over 5 mm does not really sit that well with me. But 5mm is also arbitrary. If it was all about keeping heat trapped in for cold water swimming, 3 mm would suffice even for a guy like me at 4.5-6% body fat. If it gets colder, you can always wear a neoprene cap. 5mm itself is exclusively there for flotation. If we were being honest about how much wetsuit thickness is needed, 2-3 mm would take care of things, minimize flotation while keeping in enough body heat. In fact, I'd like a 2-3 mm suit for open water training so that I can have enough heat trapped in, but also do something more in line with a proper swim than riding high up on the water like with a 5 mm suit.

I totally agree with Dev on this statement. Emilio is working within the rules. If he thought 15 mm would be better then he would have used 15 mm. He tested it and it wasn't. There is also a reason why the entire suit is not 10 mm, b/c it would be slower. This will not generate an arms race to 40 mm suits.
I have noticed it is the strong swimmers that are most upset by the WR. As a strong cyclist should I get mad at people using areo goodies and sitting at a 7 meter legal draft to keep up.
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