Seems like unless he has an answer as to what is going on, what would he say? If WTC has the legal right to do whatever they want, ignoring the rules on how to work with USAT, etc. again, what would you do in his shoes?
Who I am much more interested in hearing from is Jimmy, and WTC. Is this real? Is this a total WTC rule now, our up to each RD to make their own rules? Did they totally ignore working with USAT? If so, why do they even use them anymore, since it would look like it no longer means anything to us as racers. What were they trying to solve by doing this? Why did they not just totally ban wetsuits if some in WTC think a wetsuit is cheating. Is WTC making sure no other wetsuit make at any time by any other mfg has no parts over 5mm. Etc.

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Dave Campbell | Facebook | @DaveECampbell | h2ofun@h2ofun.net

Boom Nutrition code 19F4Y3 $5 off 24 pack box | Bionic Runner | PowerCranks | Velotron | Spruzzamist

Lions don't lose sleep worrying about the sheep

No. Not on top of each other, rather at the seam 3mm butts up to 5mm.

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I only believe what I read when I agree with it...

What part of SEWN TO (NOT OVER) are you not getting?

Nonsense. Go back to The Lavender Room where people understand you.

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"Go yell at an M&M"

No, I think he means what he wrote. 5 mm between the legs, 3 mm on the sides. That way can swivel your hips around the middle which is riding high, without having the rubber that is outside of the hips pushing your hips back up. You want your crotch to ride high, but want to be able to swivel around your centreline like pencil. The designed of the VPB is claiming that this is what his suit enables. Its more of a case of the correct amount of rubber in the right places (as Emilio has done with Water Rover, but in different places).

I have an old 2006 Superfull without VPB and if I recall correctly, in the regions mentioned it is all 5 mm, so it sounds like they "took away" rubber in some places to enable more natural body motion....Mac, correct me if I am wrong....also you said that you are using 5 mm neoprene from Yamamoto...I know I'm putting you on the hot seat, but is 5 mm neoprene from Yamamoto 5mm in width ? I bet it goes over 5 mm. I may be wrong, but if it is over 5mm, many suits become illegal, not just Water Rover.

Dev

Oh, well that makes sense....thanks.

What would he say?

Thank you for acknowledging the superiority of DeSoto gear. Our new Logo for 2011 will read:

DeSoto: our wetsuits are so good, even your competition will get their panties in a wad.

(see, where I was going with that was: you put on a tight wetsuit and sometimes it makes your panties go up your crack, and then the parallel I drew was that the Desoto suit was so good.......that it'll really upset the wearers of other wetsuit brands, but instead of "upset", i used the euphemism of getting their panties in a wad........get it?!)

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persequetur vestra metas furiose

Yes Dev, you are right - we took away thickness in specific areas of the upper leg. The way we went about it was to change the panel configuration of the suits.

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Mac McEneaney

4200 views in less than 24 hours. 10,000 by tomorrow.

I think the Rover being banned may be the best thing to happen to Desoto....

It only needs to be legal in a handfull of races and they'll sell out their inventory from this thread alone.

I mean, it's gotta be super fast if they are banning the thing.....

Look at it this way: it will only be illegal at a few dozen US races, leaving it legal at hundreds of others, right?

Here's my burning question. Can I still wear compression socks during the swim?

"I am really starting to wonder why Emilio hasn't jumped in the thread yet"

he has not because i asked him not to. i've talked to a lot of people over the past few hours, at IM, USAT, and elsewhere. i'm not sure that everything that has been done at IM's level has been with the knowledge and assent of everyone at IM who needs to be a part of the decision.

i wouldn't assume that any decision is set in stone. i would look for a possible clarification of this rule. don't get me wrong, i think this rule is probably here to stay. or rather "there" to say. it is my guess you might be able to use your water rovers and your speedskins up through a particular date. if so, i don't know when that date might be.

i'll keep you all informed.

the reason i asked emilio to just cool his heels on participating on this thread is because i can't say that i know what the rules are yet, for sure (notwithstanding their publication on ironman california's website).

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Dan Empfield
aka Slowman

The 5mm rule only applies if the entire suit is constructed of 5mm+ rubber

I’ll bet if Obama read that off a teleprompter you wouldn’t have a problem with it.....

Don’t go gettin’ all sassy with the AmericanPeople!!

The “Rule” is very clear: it speaks only of 5mm thickness of the wetsuit. Since a large surface area (50% + perhaps?) of the Water Rover is constructed of rubber that is 2mm thick, the Water Rover is clearly within the rules and is allowable to wear in the race. 2mm is less thick than 5mm, right?

Now, if the person who made this new rule was trying to go after the Water Rover, at the outset, the rule would have read “No portion of the wetsuit can have a thickness greater than 5mm.” But that’s not what it says. If they were to go back and re-write the rule that way, one could argue that the rules are punitive and are written by vindictive socialists, who are trying to stifle innovation and destroy capitalism.

Obviously, I am needed here in the Main Forum as much as I am needed in the LR.

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**All of these words finding themselves together were greatly astonished and delighted for assuredly, they had never met before**

Thanks for the update..that makes perfect sense

Also if the new rules are continued to all WTC races, current swim skins such as the Pointzero3 at races like Florida 70.3 or Kona would also be banned (textile rule). I think that's a much more significant rules change...

Emilio should get a whole whack of competitor wetsuits made of Yamamoto 5mm rubber and take the calipers to them and video the process and post on youtube...that should provide sufficient justification for the Water Rover to remain legal as I bet all the other suits get instantly thrown out as soon as the measurement is executed....I'd love to be proven wrong but lots of suits look thicker than 5 mm today even though they use "5 mm rubber" :-)

Just looked the diagram on Desoto's webiste. At the ankle and wrist, the Water Rover is 5mm in thickness. Take the drawing away and I assume there is no way anyone could verify the suit wasn't 5mm in other places.

"if the new rules are continued to all WTC races, current swim skins such as the Pointzero3 at races like Florida 70.3 or Kona. I think that's a much more significant rules change."

the issues are these (italics mine):

1. ironman says this about rules: "USA Triathlon (USAT) has sanctioned the 2010 Rohto Ironman 70.3 California. Please visit usatriathlon. org for a complete set of the competitive rules. Ironman has been granted certain rule dispensations so please read the following information carefully as the rules may differ slightly from other USAT sanctioned events." so, is it now making up its own rules? i can't find anyone at USAT (and i've asked everyone relevant) who granted dispensation. but, this might be one side of ironman not knowing what the other side is doing. i'm trying to find out whether this was a tactical error, a ministerial error on one side or the other, or just a thumbing one's nose at the sanctioning body. i don't know yet.

2. who does a manufacturer go to nowadays to find out if his products are legal? it used to be charlie crawford. obviously, now that very easy, very unlike-cycling, very reliable step our manufacturers can take is now no longer there for those of us in our sport.

3. every time there's been a technical equipment change in cycling, swimming or triathlon, there's been a sunsetting period. this might even last several years, as has been the recent case with usa cycling adopting uci tech rules. is ironman ditching this tradition? or not?

i don't know the answers. in general, i trust ironman to do the fair, the honorable, the safe, thing. i expect news shortly.

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Dan Empfield
aka Slowman

Something like this could bankrupt DeSoto,

Emilio must have invested several hundred thousand $ in research, development, rubber, labor, shipping and marketing.

I swam in a qr for the testing. If my memory serves me correct, when I was inspecting the suits I can't recall it being thicker then 5mm. I was under the impression the the VPB was more of how the suits were patterned rather then a thickness issue.

I want facts for this not innuendo. The QR is a nice suit though.

EDIT: I'm still in the field borrowing access and didn't read the entire thread until after posting.

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Brian Stover USAT LII
Accelerate3 Coaching
Insta

"Something like this could bankrupt DeSoto, Emilio must have invested several hundred thousand $ in research, development, rubber, labor, shipping and marketing."

no, and yes. de soto is a surprisingly strong company, financially, if you look at its strength relative to its size. i can think of a lot of much larger apparel companies that this might bankrupt. not de soto.

but you're right about the several hundred thousand dollar investment.

that said, i don't think you should assume anything about the rules published, either regarding wetsuit thicknesses or about swimskins. watch for an article on the slowtwitch home page, as soon as i get a little more confirmation of what in the Wide Wide World of Wetstuits is going on.

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Dan Empfield
aka Slowman

HIGHLY doubtful. I would suspect that they would lose a certain percentage of purchases via the Tri community, but having a suit so hot that its banned in some places makes it inherently more desirable in every other area.

"what.........that suit is so fast its illegal at Oceanside........DAMN.......gimme THAT one for sure!~"

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persequetur vestra metas furiose

HIGHLY doubtful. I would suspect that they would lose a certain percentage of purchases via the Tri community, but having a suit so hot that its banned in some places makes it inherently more desirable in every other area.

I officially name this the "Finman's Law".

-Jot

"this might even last several years, as has been the recent case with usa cycling adopting uci tech rules."

Yeah, we always have to try to do things different from the rest of the world because we think we are so much better and smarter, just to later come to the conclusion that in fact we are not.
But at least we did it OUR OWN long winded, confusing, costly and wasteful WAY.

So just cut to the chase, make IMs draft legal and apply ITU rules.

DONE.

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Ego numquam pronuncio mendacium,
sed sum homo salvaticus

Is Gholmes psychic?

http://forum.slowtwitch.com/...post=2559264#2559264
MC

I have chatted with Emilio a few times. What I liked about him is that he is so passionate for the sport. This is a pretty crappy thing to happen, must feel like he is being stabbed in the back.

I really liked the fact that he was not afraid to bring innovation to the sport. I think innovation is what the sport has always had a strong base in.