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Re: Road Tubeless Poll [GreenPlease] [ In reply to ]
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I have not had to use it yet, but I bought one of the dynaplug micro pro kits, if it works the way it is stated, as long as it is not a massive cut/hole, I think you could fix the tire in less than a minute then re-inflate.
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Re: Road Tubeless Poll [imswimmer328] [ In reply to ]
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imswimmer328 wrote:
I seems like latex tubes with sealant provide all the benefit of tubeless and none of the hassle with extra tight tires, air compressors, etc.

Putting aside my tubeless fanboi hat for a second, and just reporting my extensive experience trying that -

Just my anecdotal report. I ran sealant in latex tubes for about 2 years before I switched to tubeless. I don't know why/how, but my experience was that it doesn't seal anywhere near as well as pure tubeless. Pure tubeless seems to seal about 90% of punctures by around 60PSI. Sealant in latex tubes seemed good for maybe 50%. I speculate maybe latex tubes are just more slippery than tire material, and don't grip the sealant as well? Or maybe the TLR tires are specifically designed to "coagulate" sealant? Whatever the reason, there seems to be a big discrepancy.

Also, once the sealant dries, your latex tube is pretty much done. You could maybe get two rounds of sealant through it, but then it starts to get pretty cumbersome.

And, lastly, you have to remember to park your bike stem up. Because latex clogging up the valve stem is annoying. It's also annoying with a pure tubeless stem. But with that, you can easily clean out the valve stem. Once a latex tube stem gets clogged, it's pretty much done.

Lastly, once you have a tube of any kind, pinch flats are back. And avoiding pinch flats is arguably the biggest single benefit of tubeless.

So I'd go back to pure latex tube with no sealant before trying the tube+sealant game again.
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Re: Road Tubeless Poll [tyme] [ In reply to ]
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tyme wrote:
GreenPlease wrote:
This is a handy solution for draining your tires of most of their sealant prior to deflation: https://milkit.bike/en
I saw that and it is pretty cool. Their Valve Stem is interesting, but if you use it with wheels that are deep enough you need a valve extender you cannot release are from tires. Their bottle they are coming out with is pretty interesting too.

I think they have valves up to 85mm long if I recall...
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Re: Road Tubeless Poll [trail] [ In reply to ]
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trail wrote:
imswimmer328 wrote:
I seems like latex tubes with sealant provide all the benefit of tubeless and none of the hassle with extra tight tires, air compressors, etc.


Putting aside my tubeless fanboi hat for a second, and just reporting my extensive experience trying that -

Just my anecdotal report. I ran sealant in latex tubes for about 2 years before I switched to tubeless. I don't know why/how, but my experience was that it doesn't seal anywhere near as well as pure tubeless. Pure tubeless seems to seal about 90% of punctures by around 60PSI. Sealant in latex tubes seemed good for maybe 50%. I speculate maybe latex tubes are just more slippery than tire material, and don't grip the sealant as well? Or maybe the TLR tires are specifically designed to "coagulate" sealant? Whatever the reason, there seems to be a big discrepancy.

The reason tubeless with sealant seals so much better than tubes with sealant (butyl or latex) is that tires and tubes move against each other, even at relatively high pressure. Exposure to air is what causes sealant to coagulate and seal, so with a tube you've got to hope that the hole in the tube stays aligned with the hole in the tire long enough for air to hit the sealant at the tube and actually seal. That works a good 50% of the time in my estimation, but not nearly as well as real tubeless.

Your other points are all entirely valid, I'm waiting for the latex fanbois to insist a latex tube won't pinch flat (spoiler - I ran latex tubes for years, they can pinch flat).
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Re: Road Tubeless Poll [vjohn] [ In reply to ]
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vjohn wrote:
trail wrote:
imswimmer328 wrote:
I seems like latex tubes with sealant provide all the benefit of tubeless and none of the hassle with extra tight tires, air compressors, etc.


Putting aside my tubeless fanboi hat for a second, and just reporting my extensive experience trying that -

Just my anecdotal report. I ran sealant in latex tubes for about 2 years before I switched to tubeless. I don't know why/how, but my experience was that it doesn't seal anywhere near as well as pure tubeless. Pure tubeless seems to seal about 90% of punctures by around 60PSI. Sealant in latex tubes seemed good for maybe 50%. I speculate maybe latex tubes are just more slippery than tire material, and don't grip the sealant as well? Or maybe the TLR tires are specifically designed to "coagulate" sealant? Whatever the reason, there seems to be a big discrepancy.


The reason tubeless with sealant seals so much better than tubes with sealant (butyl or latex) is that tires and tubes move against each other, even at relatively high pressure. Exposure to air is what causes sealant to coagulate and seal, so with a tube you've got to hope that the hole in the tube stays aligned with the hole in the tire long enough for air to hit the sealant at the tube and actually seal. That works a good 50% of the time in my estimation, but not nearly as well as real tubeless.

Your other points are all entirely valid, I'm waiting for the latex fanbois to insist a latex tube won't pinch flat (spoiler - I ran latex tubes for years, they can pinch flat).

They definitely can...and I have done so...but nowhere near as easily as a butyl tube. A buyl tube will pinch flat just looking at it :-/

I've been pretty much exclusively riding with latex in my road wheels for quite some time. Just last week I put a pair of butyl tubes inside of a set of tires on wheels I intended to use for commuting. The first day on them, I pinch flatted the rear on a small, relatively sharp ledge that I ride over (pretty much every day) going into my yard. That never happened with road tires (of the same size and running same pressure) with latex tubes.

BTW, sealant inside of a latex tube works best on pinch flats IME, most likely because the "snakebite" openings tend to be quite small. In fact, I've "saved" a latex tube or 2 before that had slow leaks from holes I couldn't find bubble testing (due to not being able to put in enough pressure while leak checking). A little bit of sealant inside the tube made it just fine again.



http://bikeblather.blogspot.com/
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Re: Road Tubeless Poll [Slowman] [ In reply to ]
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Slowman wrote:
Tom A. wrote:
.. many cogent comments ..


i cannot find a thing to disagree with in what you just wrote. nevertheless, i still predict in 5 years we'll all be riding tubeless for road.

not all riders, some of us retrogrouches will still be riding old-fangled tubes..
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Re: Road Tubeless Poll [Tom A.] [ In reply to ]
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Tom A. wrote:
xcskier66 wrote:
I would have loved to have seen message boards when index shifting first arrived in road biking...

I bet there were tons of purists talking about how friction shifters were better, easier to maintain, provided exactly the same level of performance, cost less money and were just industry pushing a new standard on us!


Not true. I was there. With both indexed shifting and clipless pedals, the transition was nearly immediately accepted. It didn't take a decade+ like what is going on with road tubeless. That tells you something about whether or not the technology is truly "better"...


I have been a retrogrouch all my biking life, and switched to indexed and clipless within a year or two at most.. since they were clearly and obviously superior and it was just stupid to be grouchy about it..
Last edited by: doug in co: Jun 11, 18 16:39
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Re: Road Tubeless Poll [trail] [ In reply to ]
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trail wrote:
imswimmer328 wrote:
I seems like latex tubes with sealant provide all the benefit of tubeless and none of the hassle with extra tight tires, air compressors, etc.


Putting aside my tubeless fanboi hat for a second, and just reporting my extensive experience trying that -

Just my anecdotal report. I ran sealant in latex tubes for about 2 years before I switched to tubeless. I don't know why/how, but my experience was that it doesn't seal anywhere near as well as pure tubeless. Pure tubeless seems to seal about 90% of punctures by around 60PSI. Sealant in latex tubes seemed good for maybe 50%. I speculate maybe latex tubes are just more slippery than tire material, and don't grip the sealant as well? Or maybe the TLR tires are specifically designed to "coagulate" sealant? Whatever the reason, there seems to be a big discrepancy.

Also, once the sealant dries, your latex tube is pretty much done. You could maybe get two rounds of sealant through it, but then it starts to get pretty cumbersome.

And, lastly, you have to remember to park your bike stem up. Because latex clogging up the valve stem is annoying. It's also annoying with a pure tubeless stem. But with that, you can easily clean out the valve stem. Once a latex tube stem gets clogged, it's pretty much done.

Lastly, once you have a tube of any kind, pinch flats are back. And avoiding pinch flats is arguably the biggest single benefit of tubeless.

So I'd go back to pure latex tube with no sealant before trying the tube+sealant game again.

The chap from BRR seems to believe there's a correlation between casing thickness an how effective sealant is at sealing holes. No data but I've seen him mention it a few times.
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Re: Road Tubeless Poll [Tom A.] [ In reply to ]
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Tom A. wrote:
spntrxi wrote:
Tom A. wrote:
trail wrote:

I'm not upset that some people continue to use tubes. Not sure why some are upset that people choose to speak positively about going tubeless.


It seems to me, the folks who get the most upset in this discussion are the ones who say "road tubeless is the future" and then are met with calm responses of "Meh...I tried it. Doesn't seem to be worth the hassles".



this is a nutshell... I'm in the meh crowd ( and it's a larger crowd) then road tubeless fans will admit too. I have 3 sets of tubeless ready rims.. so I'm ready when it improves, but I have a feeling I'll be road disc before I'm tubeless.


Ironically, there are 2 road tubeless technologies that I've found make clincher use even better than it was before, and that's smooth, plastic rim tape (awesome for latex tubes) and tubeless-ready rim bed shapes (which do a better job of retaining a bead if you do happen to flat, especially on polycotton casing tires, and make coming to a stop on a soft, or flat, tire safer).

yes I can agree with you there.. I love Silcas tape.
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Re: Road Tubeless Poll [trail] [ In reply to ]
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Trail.....good info.. I thought of trying sealant in latex, but I'll probably pass on the sealant now.... I have not got a pinch flat in 2+ years.. since I hit a huge rock in a pace line (yes I was pissed at the group) because I nearly bit it at 30mph.

I really wanna try that tubolito stuff... it's awful pricy .
Last edited by: spntrxi: Jun 11, 18 20:01
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Re: Road Tubeless Poll [GreenPlease] [ In reply to ]
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GreenPlease wrote:

The chap from BRR seems to believe there's a correlation between casing thickness an how effective sealant is at sealing holes. No data but I've seen him mention it a few times.

Well...that would be an unfortunate downside for road tubeless then, seeing as how casing thickness is typically inversely proportional to rolling resistance...



http://bikeblather.blogspot.com/
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Re: Road Tubeless Poll [GreenPlease] [ In reply to ]
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GreenPlease wrote:
tyme wrote:
GreenPlease wrote:
This is a handy solution for draining your tires of most of their sealant prior to deflation: https://milkit.bike/en
I saw that and it is pretty cool. Their Valve Stem is interesting, but if you use it with wheels that are deep enough you need a valve extender you cannot release are from tires. Their bottle they are coming out with is pretty interesting too.


I think they have valves up to 85mm long if I recall...

Something like that, but will not work on my flo90 :-p
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Re: Road Tubeless Poll [Tom A.] [ In reply to ]
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Tom A. wrote:
GreenPlease wrote:

The chap from BRR seems to believe there's a correlation between casing thickness an how effective sealant is at sealing holes. No data but I've seen him mention it a few times.

Well...that would be an unfortunate downside for road tubeless then, seeing as how casing thickness is typically inversely proportional to rolling resistance...

Right. My $0.02 is that an ideal tubeless tire would be something like a GP4000 but without the vectran anti-puncture belt. So you would have a:
-fast compound
-a thick-ish tread which trades CRR for aero (by creating a “tall” profile)
-no butyl layer, rely on latex sealant.

Side note: have you tried the “glitter trick” with a tubeless tire yet? Has anyone here done it? I plan on giving it a try this season with a set of the new Mavic UST rims I just bought... assuming I find enough time to train and race.
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Re: Road Tubeless Poll [GreenPlease] [ In reply to ]
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GreenPlease wrote:
Tom A. wrote:
GreenPlease wrote:


The chap from BRR seems to believe there's a correlation between casing thickness an how effective sealant is at sealing holes. No data but I've seen him mention it a few times.


Well...that would be an unfortunate downside for road tubeless then, seeing as how casing thickness is typically inversely proportional to rolling resistance...


Right. My $0.02 is that an ideal tubeless tire would be something like a GP4000 but without the vectran anti-puncture belt. So you would have a:
-fast compound
-a thick-ish tread which trades CRR for aero (by creating a “tall” profile)
-no butyl layer, rely on latex sealant.

Side note: have you tried the “glitter trick” with a tubeless tire yet? Has anyone here done it? I plan on giving it a try this season with a set of the new Mavic UST rims I just bought... assuming I find enough time to train and race.

I haven't added any extra "glitter" yet...I've been using Orange Seal, which has quite a bit of "stuff" in it already.



http://bikeblather.blogspot.com/
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Re: Road Tubeless Poll [GreenPlease] [ In reply to ]
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Hobby Lobby run on glitter now... what's next sprinkles ?

I'm giving road tubeless a break.. until winter maybe.
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Re: Road Tubeless Poll [Tom A.] [ In reply to ]
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Tom A. wrote:


I haven't added any extra "glitter" yet...I've been using Orange Seal, which has quite a bit of "stuff" in it already.

Also have not tried it, but also use Orange Seal. Think my wheels currently have the race formula in them.
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Re: Road Tubeless Poll [trail] [ In reply to ]
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trail wrote:
endosch2 wrote:
I am sure we will be paying the same for road tires.


Maybe tire prices just went up? Here are some MSRP's for good road tires, TLR and just plain clinchers:

$75 Conti GP 4000SII
$80 Conti GP TT
$80 (t) Schwalbe Pro One
$70 (t) Hutchinson Fusion 5G
$75 Michelin Pro4 Comp
$79 (t) Vittoria Corsa Speed
$74 (t) Zipp Tangente RT25
$74 Conti Force
$80 S-Works Turbo Cotton
$100 (t) S-Works Turbo Tubeless:

None of those tires are exactly cheap, but I don't see any real pattern except the one outlier from Specialized.

Of course you can get 25-50% off those MSRP prices by avoiding your LBS. :) (except Specialized)

Sealant is pretty cheap too. You can get a quart of Stan's for like $25, or roughly the price of 2 latex tubes. A quart should last years for road applications.

Can good tubeless tires be had as cheap as GP4KS from online vendors? I gave tubeless a try with Hutchinson Fusion5 11storm and the tires are pricey, not available cheaper that I found, and the experience doesn't hold up to the GP4KS. Maybe the Pro1s would be better, but half the people who tried them said they're too fragile for normal usage. Is there a single "consensus" tubeless tire, to the degree of the GP4KS?

The point is, ladies and gentleman, that speed, for lack of a better word, is good. Speed is right, Speed works. Speed clarifies, cuts through, and captures the essence of the evolutionary spirit.
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Re: Road Tubeless Poll [GreenPlease] [ In reply to ]
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GreenPlease wrote:
-no butyl layer, rely on latex sealant.

This generally results in significant seepage of sealant through the sidewalls. Not a problem functionally, but also not attractive.
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Re: Road Tubeless Poll [vjohn] [ In reply to ]
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vjohn wrote:
GreenPlease wrote:

-no butyl layer, rely on latex sealant.


This generally results in significant seepage of sealant through the sidewalls. Not a problem functionally, but also not attractive.

This is one reason why Trek changed their Tubeless tires to have a butyl layer. Their original models did not have that layer, and they had seepage, which also caused some layer separation (bubbling) in the tire. After the new iteration I have not heard of that issue anymore from anyone I know that is running their R3 Tubeless tires.
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Re: Road Tubeless Poll [Physiojoe925] [ In reply to ]
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Finally got around to mounting up a road tubeless setup tonight. DT Swiss PRC 1400's and 25 Schwalbe Pro One's (which measure an actual 27.5).

Took me all of 5 minutes to pull off the existing tubed tires and install and set up both front and rear.
I was able to mount both tires by hand although the last few inches were kind of semi-tough but not impossible. Used a single CO2 to inflate each tire - sealed up easily and a few hours later still no air loss.

I really think the key (besides a good rim/tire mix) is taking the time to make sure the tire bead stays centered in the rim when mounting and/or removing a tire. Key to inflate is just make sure the tire beads are on the outside of the valve.

Now, all the above being said I do realize that changing out on the road will be much harder.....sweaty hands and such, but crossing my fingers I don't have to deal with that any time soon.
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Re: Road Tubeless Poll [MKirk] [ In reply to ]
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MKirk wrote:
Finally got around to mounting up a road tubeless setup tonight. DT Swiss PRC 1400's and 25 Schwalbe Pro One's (which measure an actual 27.5).

Took me all of 5 minutes to pull off the existing tubed tires and install and set up both front and rear.
I was able to mount both tires by hand although the last few inches were kind of semi-tough but not impossible. Used a single CO2 to inflate each tire - sealed up easily and a few hours later still no air loss.

I really think the key (besides a good rim/tire mix) is taking the time to make sure the tire bead stays centered in the rim when mounting and/or removing a tire. Key to inflate is just make sure the tire beads are on the outside of the valve.

Now, all the above being said I do realize that changing out on the road will be much harder.....sweaty hands and such, but crossing my fingers I don't have to deal with that any time soon.

Just to add to this so going tubeless doesn’t put fear in everyone considering the change. My setup has been loosing some psi over a few days so I figured I would pop the beads and apply some sealant on the beads to see if that would help a bit. Deflated both tires. Popping all the beads was no different than tubed tires (super easy). Applied sealant around all the beads and reinflated both tires with a normal floor pump (didn’t even have to inflate hard and fast).....2-3 pumps and wahla! This setup worked so well and I needed a spare wheelset around so I just bought the same wheelset in 60mm and will look to run that set tubeless as well.
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Re: Road Tubeless Poll [MKirk] [ In reply to ]
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MKirk wrote:
MKirk wrote:
Finally got around to mounting up a road tubeless setup tonight. DT Swiss PRC 1400's and 25 Schwalbe Pro One's (which measure an actual 27.5).

Took me all of 5 minutes to pull off the existing tubed tires and install and set up both front and rear.
I was able to mount both tires by hand although the last few inches were kind of semi-tough but not impossible. Used a single CO2 to inflate each tire - sealed up easily and a few hours later still no air loss.

I really think the key (besides a good rim/tire mix) is taking the time to make sure the tire bead stays centered in the rim when mounting and/or removing a tire. Key to inflate is just make sure the tire beads are on the outside of the valve.

Now, all the above being said I do realize that changing out on the road will be much harder.....sweaty hands and such, but crossing my fingers I don't have to deal with that any time soon.


Just to add to this so going tubeless doesn’t put fear in everyone considering the change. My setup has been loosing some psi over a few days so I figured I would pop the beads and apply some sealant on the beads to see if that would help a bit. Deflated both tires. Popping all the beads was no different than tubed tires (super easy). Applied sealant around all the beads and reinflated both tires with a normal floor pump (didn’t even have to inflate hard and fast).....2-3 pumps and wahla! This setup worked so well and I needed a spare wheelset around so I just bought the same wheelset in 60mm and will look to run that set tubeless as well.



I just got around to installing tubeless on a new wheelset which is a DT Swiss PRC 1400's 62mm (set above was 35mm) and a new set of Schwalbe Pro One Tubeless 25 's.

Really no difference is ease of installation. 1st tire was easy to install by hand and inflated with just a regular tire pump. The 2nd wheel mounting was a bit harder and needed a single lever to install the tire and a CO2 to inflate (pump would not work). This wheel had different tubeless tape installed so next time I have the tire off I'll replace it with some Stans tape.
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Re: Road Tubeless Poll [MKirk] [ In reply to ]
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MKirk wrote:
MKirk wrote:
MKirk wrote:
Finally got around to mounting up a road tubeless setup tonight. DT Swiss PRC 1400's and 25 Schwalbe Pro One's (which measure an actual 27.5).

Took me all of 5 minutes to pull off the existing tubed tires and install and set up both front and rear.
I was able to mount both tires by hand although the last few inches were kind of semi-tough but not impossible. Used a single CO2 to inflate each tire - sealed up easily and a few hours later still no air loss.

I really think the key (besides a good rim/tire mix) is taking the time to make sure the tire bead stays centered in the rim when mounting and/or removing a tire. Key to inflate is just make sure the tire beads are on the outside of the valve.

Now, all the above being said I do realize that changing out on the road will be much harder.....sweaty hands and such, but crossing my fingers I don't have to deal with that any time soon.


Just to add to this so going tubeless doesn’t put fear in everyone considering the change. My setup has been loosing some psi over a few days so I figured I would pop the beads and apply some sealant on the beads to see if that would help a bit. Deflated both tires. Popping all the beads was no different than tubed tires (super easy). Applied sealant around all the beads and reinflated both tires with a normal floor pump (didn’t even have to inflate hard and fast).....2-3 pumps and wahla! This setup worked so well and I needed a spare wheelset around so I just bought the same wheelset in 60mm and will look to run that set tubeless as well.




I just got around to installing tubeless on a new wheelset which is a DT Swiss PRC 1400's 62mm (set above was 35mm) and a new set of Schwalbe Pro One Tubeless 25 's.

Really no difference is ease of installation. 1st tire was easy to install by hand and inflated with just a regular tire pump. The 2nd wheel mounting was a bit harder and needed a single lever to install the tire and a CO2 to inflate (pump would not work). This wheel had different tubeless tape installed so next time I have the tire off I'll replace it with some Stans tape.



Just to add another update to the fear and difficulties of running tubeless.
Ordered and received a set of Reynolds Aero 46 DB wheels from MyBikeShop and mounting Schwalbe Pro One's was even easier than with the DT Swiss wheels noted above. Literally mounted with ZERO effort and off with a single, cheap plastic lever (could probably do it with a stick on the side of the road). Inflated with an old and normal floor pump.
Hoping when Conti comes out with a tubeless GP4000 at some point in the near future that it's just as easy to mount.
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Re: Road Tubeless Poll [ In reply to ]
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it's a crap shoot when it comes to ease (rim/tire combo)

My 2 latest example....
1. HED Ardennes LT with Schwalbe 30C G-Speed,, stupid easy.. no tire irons, I have a dual chamber pump but probably didn't need it.

2. Enve 4.5AR with Schwalbe Pro-One 28C... PITA.. sore thumbs, 2 tire irons.. Once the chamber pump unloaded..I had to keep pumping quickly to seat the bead.
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Re: Road Tubeless Poll [spntrxi] [ In reply to ]
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spntrxi wrote:
it's a crap shoot when it comes to ease (rim/tire combo)

My 2 latest example....
1. HED Ardennes LT with Schwalbe 30C G-Speed,, stupid easy.. no tire irons, I have a dual chamber pump but probably didn't need it.

2. Enve 4.5AR with Schwalbe Pro-One 28C... PITA.. sore thumbs, 2 tire irons.. Once the chamber pump unloaded..I had to keep pumping quickly to seat the bead.

I can understand the fear of having to change a combo that is impossible to do on the road....truthfully, I would probably not even keep a combo (wheel/tire) setup that was that difficult/impossible to put a tube in roadside. I'm not holding my breath that a Conti GP4000 tubeless (whenever that becomes a reality) will be an easy tire to mount as I have several different Conti regular tires that are near impossible to mount already. I am just really glad I have 2 wheelset combos that are not going to be a problem what so ever right now.....as I have already seen 3 punctures seal and kept on rolling.
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