Login required to started new threads

Login required to post replies

Prev Next
Road Tubeless Poll
Quote | Reply
There's one (probably small) portion of us that got left out :)

"tried it and went back to tubes"

I successfully used road tubeless (Hutchinson Fusion 2 tires with Stans sealant) around 2012/13 for gravel races. Now the Fusion 3 is their widely available tire, and I blew a sidewall about 5 miles into the first gravel ride with it.

I'm looking to ride a ~25mm width tubeless tire at 80 psi for the occasional gravel road on my training routes. Not interested in using them for paved races.

If there's another 24-27mm tire that is tubeless ready and more robust than the Fusion 3, maybe I'd give it a try again!

-Physiojoe
Instagram: @thephysiojoe
Cycling coach, Elite racer on Wooster Bikewerks p/b Wootown Bagels
Quote Reply
Re: Road Tubeless Poll [Physiojoe925] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
I've been tubeless since 2015.
Schwalbe one's for the road have worked very well for me.
Specialized Roubaix's for Montana dirt roads. I've ridden around 1500 dirt/gravel miles on them without a flat. They roll quickly on the road as well. (IMO, no idea on actual data) I use them in a 25mm.

I love that I can finish a race, find out I had a puncture and only lost 10 psi.
Quote Reply
Re: Road Tubeless Poll [Physiojoe925] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
I won't be riding "road tubeless" until someone makes one that is as fast AND as durable as my current "every day" road tire...the Turbo Cotton w/latex tubes.

That said, if I lived somewhere in which the majority of my flats were from small "pin prick" type punctures, I might think otherwise...



http://bikeblather.blogspot.com/
Quote Reply
Re: Road Tubeless Poll [oprfcc] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
oprfcc wrote:
I've been tubeless since 2015.
Schwalbe one's for the road have worked very well for me.
Specialized Roubaix's for Montana dirt roads. I've ridden around 1500 dirt/gravel miles on them without a flat. They roll quickly on the road as well. (IMO, no idea on actual data) I use them in a 25mm.

I love that I can finish a race, find out I had a puncture and only lost 10 psi.


I'm not familiar with Montana dirt roads...do you get chunky gravel? If the Roubaix hold up to that, they might be my next choice. Running them with Stan's?

-Physiojoe
Instagram: @thephysiojoe
Cycling coach, Elite racer on Wooster Bikewerks p/b Wootown Bagels
Quote Reply
Re: Road Tubeless Poll [Tom A.] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
Tom A. wrote:
I won't be riding "road tubeless" until someone makes one that is as fast AND as durable as my current "every day" road tire...the Turbo Cotton w/latex tubes.

That said, if I lived somewhere in which the majority of my flats were from small "pin prick" type punctures, I might think otherwise...

i'm getting the sense that road tubeless is like disc brake: nobody's going to ask your opinion or mine; this is where the industry is going.

i think all the wheel and tire makers got together in davos and decided:

1. to find tech the chinese haven't open molded;
2. to decide on one tech that could be explored throughout the various bike styles.

hence disc brake and tubeless. i think we'll see a convergence in wheels and tires. we won't see, for example, wheels for gravel and wheels for tri. we'll just see wheels. the only differentiator (other than wheelsize) is going to be the distance across between the beads. wheels will be: 622mm v 586mm, and then the depth (40mm, 60mm), and then the distance between beads (19mm, 21mm, 24mm). otherwise, a wheel's a wheel's a wheel.

that's where i suspect we'll end up.


Dan Empfield
aka Slowman
Quote Reply
Re: Road Tubeless Poll [oprfcc] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
oprfcc wrote:
I've been tubeless since 2015.
Schwalbe one's for the road have worked very well for me.
Specialized Roubaix's for Montana dirt roads. I've ridden around 1500 dirt/gravel miles on them without a flat. They roll quickly on the road as well. (IMO, no idea on actual data) I use them in a 25mm.

I love that I can finish a race, find out I had a puncture and only lost 10 psi.

Also a big fan of the schwalbe one tubeless, have had a set [25mm] on my commuter bike and they're sublime. No puncture, excellent roll resistance, superior grip in all conditions, and fairly good longevity so far.
If I had tubeless ready rims on my tribike I'd race them with confidence

res, non verba
Quote Reply
Re: Road Tubeless Poll [Physiojoe925] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
I'm going to pull off my tubeless tires before my big weekend ride. Got a rather large cut on my rear that sealant would not seal and I tried to patch it, but it started leaking slowly again. Only has about 500 miles on the tire..so I was trying to get a little more life out of it.

Dont know if I am done forever... but back to Turbo Cottons on this wheelset for sure.
Quote Reply
Re: Road Tubeless Poll [Slowman] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
Slowman wrote:
Tom A. wrote:
I won't be riding "road tubeless" until someone makes one that is as fast AND as durable as my current "every day" road tire...the Turbo Cotton w/latex tubes.

That said, if I lived somewhere in which the majority of my flats were from small "pin prick" type punctures, I might think otherwise...


i'm getting the sense that road tubeless is like disc brake: nobody's going to ask your opinion or mine; this is where the industry is going.

i think all the wheel and tire makers got together in davos and decided:

1. to find tech the chinese haven't open molded;
2. to decide on one tech that could be explored throughout the various bike styles.

hence disc brake and tubeless. i think we'll see a convergence in wheels and tires. we won't see, for example, wheels for gravel and wheels for tri. we'll just see wheels. the only differentiator (other than wheelsize) is going to be the distance across between the beads. wheels will be: 622mm v 586mm, and then the depth (40mm, 60mm), and then the distance between beads (19mm, 21mm, 24mm). otherwise, a wheel's a wheel's a wheel.

that's where i suspect we'll end up.

Ironically, the "push" for separate braking discs only makes the cheap carbon rims more feasible and will most likely only hurt the established rim companies.

Also...I think you overestimate the ability for this particular industry to "collude". I try not to ascribe "evil intent" to actions that can easily be explained by mere incompetence ;-)

In any case...none of that changes my initial statement in this thread.



http://bikeblather.blogspot.com/
Quote Reply
Re: Road Tubeless Poll [Tom A.] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
Tom A. wrote:
Slowman wrote:
Tom A. wrote:
I won't be riding "road tubeless" until someone makes one that is as fast AND as durable as my current "every day" road tire...the Turbo Cotton w/latex tubes.

That said, if I lived somewhere in which the majority of my flats were from small "pin prick" type punctures, I might think otherwise...


i'm getting the sense that road tubeless is like disc brake: nobody's going to ask your opinion or mine; this is where the industry is going.

i think all the wheel and tire makers got together in davos and decided:

1. to find tech the chinese haven't open molded;
2. to decide on one tech that could be explored throughout the various bike styles.

hence disc brake and tubeless. i think we'll see a convergence in wheels and tires. we won't see, for example, wheels for gravel and wheels for tri. we'll just see wheels. the only differentiator (other than wheelsize) is going to be the distance across between the beads. wheels will be: 622mm v 586mm, and then the depth (40mm, 60mm), and then the distance between beads (19mm, 21mm, 24mm). otherwise, a wheel's a wheel's a wheel.

that's where i suspect we'll end up.


Ironically, the "push" for separate braking discs only makes the cheap carbon rims more feasible and will most likely only hurt the established rim companies.

Also...I think you overestimate the ability for this particular industry to "collude". I try not to ascribe "evil intent" to actions that can easily be explained by mere incompetence ;-)

In any case...none of that changes my initial statement in this thread.

i wish the industry would collude, at least tire makers with wheel makers, because one real problem i have with tubeless is the spotty relationships tires have with rims. especially in road. i'm riding a rim and wheel right now where i don't think this tire is ever coming off this wheel until it's cut off.


Dan Empfield
aka Slowman
Quote Reply
Re: Road Tubeless Poll [Physiojoe925] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
Hutchinsons are the absolute worst as far as I can tell, and I've been tubeless for >5 years and have tried a lot of tires.

For a focus on durability I'd look at the IRC Roadlite 25 or the Bontrager R2 or R3 in 26. The IRC's will be closer to 27-28mm on a modern, wide rim. The Bontragers will be more true to size. The IRCs are a touch easier to mount, in my experience.

None of these tires are incredibly fast, but they're not slow by any means. I've ridden all of them extensively on NM & CO dirt roads, they are durable.
Last edited by: vjohn: Jun 6, 18 11:43
Quote Reply
Re: Road Tubeless Poll [RoYe] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
I'm using Schwalbe one's on my road bike and really like them, despite some bad luck with punctures. I have had three punctures in the tread this year that were too big for the Stan's to seal. I carry the Dyna Plug tool and that has been plenty good enough to get me home, but I have about a 50% success rate of the plug being a long term fix.

All that said, with tubulars on my TT bike, tubeless on road bike and tubes on commuter..... tubeless is my preference. Small punctures are sealed immediately and larger ones can be fixed in less than a minute with the Dyna Plug. It's not a big enough preference to justify buying new wheels, but I will likely migrate as the opportunity presents itself.
Quote Reply
Re: Road Tubeless Poll [Slowman] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
Slowman wrote:
Tom A. wrote:
Slowman wrote:
Tom A. wrote:
I won't be riding "road tubeless" until someone makes one that is as fast AND as durable as my current "every day" road tire...the Turbo Cotton w/latex tubes.

That said, if I lived somewhere in which the majority of my flats were from small "pin prick" type punctures, I might think otherwise...


i'm getting the sense that road tubeless is like disc brake: nobody's going to ask your opinion or mine; this is where the industry is going.

i think all the wheel and tire makers got together in davos and decided:

1. to find tech the chinese haven't open molded;
2. to decide on one tech that could be explored throughout the various bike styles.

hence disc brake and tubeless. i think we'll see a convergence in wheels and tires. we won't see, for example, wheels for gravel and wheels for tri. we'll just see wheels. the only differentiator (other than wheelsize) is going to be the distance across between the beads. wheels will be: 622mm v 586mm, and then the depth (40mm, 60mm), and then the distance between beads (19mm, 21mm, 24mm). otherwise, a wheel's a wheel's a wheel.

that's where i suspect we'll end up.


Ironically, the "push" for separate braking discs only makes the cheap carbon rims more feasible and will most likely only hurt the established rim companies.

Also...I think you overestimate the ability for this particular industry to "collude". I try not to ascribe "evil intent" to actions that can easily be explained by mere incompetence ;-)

In any case...none of that changes my initial statement in this thread.


i wish the industry would collude, at least tire makers with wheel makers, because one real problem i have with tubeless is the spotty relationships tires have with rims. especially in road. i'm riding a rim and wheel right now where i don't think this tire is ever coming off this wheel until it's cut off.


I don't necessarily disagree with the direction you think the industry is headed...but I'm thinking about all of the incentives bike companies have to push disc brakes upon us: need completely new bike, new wheels, can't transfer old cable-brake shifters onto other bikes so more new purchases required.

What incentive do they have to push road tubeless? To help Stan's sell $16 rolls of tape, or to help a bike shop get a $100 tire sale instead of a $70 sale?

I also think that if "the industry" really wants to make tubeless a thing, on any bike, they need to have shops sell it to the customer like that. Why make it an extra $100 (sealant, labor etc) step that you must take on your "tubeless ready" bike?

I know local cat 4's who raced cyclocross on their tubed tires and wondered why they flatted every other race. Yet their knowledge of tubeless, let alone setting it up themselves, is nonexistent. If it would have come from the shop like that, they would be having way more fun and actually finishing races.

-Physiojoe
Instagram: @thephysiojoe
Cycling coach, Elite racer on Wooster Bikewerks p/b Wootown Bagels
Quote Reply
Re: Road Tubeless Poll [Slowman] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
Slowman wrote:
i'm getting the sense that road tubeless is like disc brake: nobody's going to ask your opinion or mine; this is where the industry is going.

It's going there really slowly.... Really, how much progress has it made lately?

It didn't take long for tubeless to dominate MTB. On road bikes the only benefit shows up if you run over goatheads regularly. Even then a latex tube will usually not puncture, IME.
Quote Reply
Re: Road Tubeless Poll [Physiojoe925] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
You'll come across patches of thicker gravel, but most of the year there is a line to ride where it's just dirt.

If I was on loose gravel or chunkier gravel, I'd want a lot bigger tire with more tread. I don't think the roubaix would handle well in consistent think gravel.
Quote Reply
Re: Road Tubeless Poll [Tom A.] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
Tom A. wrote:
Slowman wrote:
Tom A. wrote:
I won't be riding "road tubeless" until someone makes one that is as fast AND as durable as my current "every day" road tire...the Turbo Cotton w/latex tubes.

That said, if I lived somewhere in which the majority of my flats were from small "pin prick" type punctures, I might think otherwise...


i'm getting the sense that road tubeless is like disc brake: nobody's going to ask your opinion or mine; this is where the industry is going.

i think all the wheel and tire makers got together in davos and decided:

1. to find tech the chinese haven't open molded;
2. to decide on one tech that could be explored throughout the various bike styles.

hence disc brake and tubeless. i think we'll see a convergence in wheels and tires. we won't see, for example, wheels for gravel and wheels for tri. we'll just see wheels. the only differentiator (other than wheelsize) is going to be the distance across between the beads. wheels will be: 622mm v 586mm, and then the depth (40mm, 60mm), and then the distance between beads (19mm, 21mm, 24mm). otherwise, a wheel's a wheel's a wheel.

that's where i suspect we'll end up.


Ironically, the "push" for separate braking discs only makes the cheap carbon rims more feasible and will most likely only hurt the established rim companies.

Also...I think you overestimate the ability for this particular industry to "collude". I try not to ascribe "evil intent" to actions that can easily be explained by mere incompetence ;-)

In any case...none of that changes my initial statement in this thread.

Exactly. I suspect this initiative started with the idea of reducing SKU count.

WTB: TriRig Omega SV (not x). PM me if you have one :)
Quote Reply
Re: Road Tubeless Poll [Slowman] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
Slowman wrote:


i wish the industry would collude, at least tire makers with wheel makers, because one real problem i have with tubeless is the spotty relationships tires have with rims. especially in road. i'm riding a rim and wheel right now where i don't think this tire is ever coming off this wheel until it's cut off.


Yes, horror stories of mounting/seating/dismounting have been the major deterrent for me. Mavic seems to have licked that with UST. Now that it's been confirmed that the the Mavic UST road tires don't suck for .crr, a matched set of Mavic UST wheels/tires will be my next big purchase for the road bike.
Last edited by: gary p: Jun 8, 18 10:10
Quote Reply
Re: Road Tubeless Poll [rruff] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
rruff wrote:
Slowman wrote:
i'm getting the sense that road tubeless is like disc brake: nobody's going to ask your opinion or mine; this is where the industry is going.


It's going there really slowly.... Really, how much progress has it made lately?

It didn't take long for tubeless to dominate MTB. On road bikes the only benefit shows up if you run over goatheads regularly. Even then a latex tube will usually not puncture, IME.

i think gravel is the key. tubeless is taking over gravel as well, which will bring tubeless down to 33mm or 35mm and by then you're pretty much a skip away from road.

what are the advantages? here's what i'd say, theoretically, at least:

1. lower Crr
2. no flats
3. if you do get a flat, plug it
4. no leakdown (remember, you'll need latex tubes to match tubeless performance)
5. 1 product instead of 2 (no tube needed)
6. for manufacturers, it means the chinese will have to catch up to a new standard

on that last part, you might think that's easy, but it's going to take the chinese some time to catch up to the precision required for a tubeless. rim and matching tire. esp if there is any IP to protect western wheel makers.

and then finally, who is investing in tubed gravel tires and wheels right now? or, rim brake gravel wheels? it's just human nature. wheel and tire makers are not going to want to get left in the dust, pardon the pun. as this translates down to road, nobody's going to want to invest in old tech, or what they see is old tech.

at least that's my guess. i believe i was the lone voice in the wilderness 3 years ago in my disc brake in tri prognostication. so, do you feel lucky? do ya, punk. ;-)


Dan Empfield
aka Slowman
Quote Reply
Re: Road Tubeless Poll [Slowman] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
I so badly want tubeless tires to work for my road bikes. But I want them to work like GP4000s mounted on my Zipps with latex tubes--i.e. mounted without tools in 30 seconds flat.

I've experimented with all the good roads tubeless tires and the result has always been frustration, sealant spray, pinched tubes, and many "fucks" and "fucking fucks" uttered. Often the endgame is taking a box-cutter to the tire to get it off (I'm looking at YOU Vittoria).

Until that happens I'll be sticking to the aforementioned combo. Happy to put up with a bit of faffing around when it comes to gravel and MTB tires, but road just needs to work.
Quote Reply
Re: Road Tubeless Poll [alexZA] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
alexZA wrote:
I so badly want tubeless tires to work for my road bikes. But I want them to work like GP4000s mounted on my Zipps with latex tubes--i.e. mounted without tools in 30 seconds flat.

I've experimented with all the good roads tubeless tires and the result has always been frustration, sealant spray, pinched tubes, and many "fucks" and "fucking fucks" uttered. Often the endgame is taking a box-cutter to the tire to get it off (I'm looking at YOU Vittoria).

Until that happens I'll be sticking to the aforementioned combo. Happy to put up with a bit of faffing around when it comes to gravel and MTB tires, but road just needs to work.

yeah, well, the vittoria is a pretty unforgiving tire to mount/dismount. unless you use a box cutter.

but i put a zipp tire on a zipp wheel, and took it off, and it was buttah. so, what i'm saying is, this is where we're going. but there's going to be some fucking fucks on the journey.


Dan Empfield
aka Slowman
Quote Reply
Re: Road Tubeless Poll [Slowman] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
Slowman wrote:
rruff wrote:
Slowman wrote:
i'm getting the sense that road tubeless is like disc brake: nobody's going to ask your opinion or mine; this is where the industry is going.


It's going there really slowly.... Really, how much progress has it made lately?

It didn't take long for tubeless to dominate MTB. On road bikes the only benefit shows up if you run over goatheads regularly. Even then a latex tube will usually not puncture, IME.


i think gravel is the key. tubeless is taking over gravel as well, which will bring tubeless down to 33mm or 35mm and by then you're pretty much a skip away from road.


The thing is...practically speaking, that "skip" is quite large. And, it's mostly that large due to the differing use cases and dominant failure modes between gravel/MTBs and road cycling.


Think of it this way: Why did tubeless get adopted so quickly in MTBs, yet seems to be struggling to gain a hold in road cycling? What problem did the technology solve in MTBs? And, is that same problem also a major driver in road applications?


In a recent CyclingTips podcast on this subject, Caley Fretz summed it up quite clearly, in that THE major problem that tubeless technology solved for MTBs is pinch-flatting. Pinch-flatting in cycling applications on rough/rocky surfaces is a much bigger problem than punctures. I can attest to that myself in my own long-term MTB use. The tubeless technology immediately allowed MTBers to run much lower pressures than they would be able to with tubes (without fear of pinch-flatting), and they gained the traction, control, AND rolling resistance advantages of that lower pressure. That's a win...and it's no mystery that people were quick to move to it. Heck, even I experimented with DIY tubeless on my MTB before the manufacturers got on board and figured things out. That type of clamoring hasn't existed in the road biking realm.


The desire for tubeless in "gravel" is much the same...as I've said before, these bikes are really just vastly improved rigid MTBs with drop bars ;-) Pinch flat protection is the main desire in that use case as well.


Now then...let's look at tubeless for road applications. Here, arguably the higher failure mode is punctures. Pinch flats are a far lesser concern (even more so when running latex tubes). This is where the technology falls short, in that the sealants can't really handle plugging all but the smallest holes, and not without a fairly large loss of pressure (due to the much lower air volumes as compared to MTB/gravel tires), and usually not without a large mess or needing to stop and "fiddle" with the wheel anyway. That's been my experience with using road tubeless. Now then, I don't live in a place where goatheads are prevalent...but, if I did, I'm sure I'd be more excited about dealing with the road tubeless downsides to better deal with that. But, like most road users...I don't live in that territory.


So...once again, people are projecting that a certain technology is the "best" for all use cases due to it being appropriate for particular use cases. The problem is, the conditions and failure mode rates are different, and so that's not necessarily the case.


Slowman wrote:

what are the advantages? here's what i'd say, theoretically, at least:

1. lower Crr - Not really. A latex tube doesn't add any measurable Crr vs. a tubeless tire at road pressures. "Theoretically", why would you expect tubeless to be able to have lower Crr?
2. no flats - "No"? Hmmm...then why does anyone worry about being able to break a bead to swap in a tube? Or, carry plug kits?
3. if you do get a flat, plug it - Yes. But, even some flats (e.g. sidewall cuts) may require a boot and tube anyway, which can be made doubly hard by dealing with a non-stretchable tubeless bead.
4. no leakdown (remember, you'll need latex tubes to match tubeless performance) - "No"? Sure, it's slower...but is leakdown of latex tubes really a problem? My experience says no.
5. 1 product instead of 2 (no tube needed) - Actually, same part count. The tubeless setup still needs a valve. On tubed setups, it happens to be attached to the tube ;-)
6. for manufacturers, it means the chinese will have to catch up to a new standard - They'll just copy it to various levels of success, as has happened in the past...and then sell it for much less.

Slowman wrote:
on that last part, you might think that's easy, but it's going to take the chinese some time to catch up to the precision required for a tubeless. rim and matching tire. esp if there is any IP to protect western wheel makers. - I have a feeling that trying to enforce IP in this product space is not going to help speed up adoption.


Slowman wrote:
and then finally, who is investing in tubed gravel tires and wheels right now?


Ummm...seems to me that "tubeless" gravel tires and wheels are ALSO tube-capable, no?


Slowman wrote:

at least that's my guess. i believe i was the lone voice in the wilderness 3 years ago in my disc brake in tri prognostication. so, do you feel lucky? do ya, punk. ;-)


What exactly was your prognostication? That they'd exist?...They certainly haven't been quickly adopted. Merely existing wasn't much of a stretch, seeing as how they existed back then already ;-)



http://bikeblather.blogspot.com/
Last edited by: Tom A.: Jun 6, 18 16:48
Quote Reply
Re: Road Tubeless Poll [Tom A.] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
Tom A. wrote:
Slowman wrote:
rruff wrote:
Slowman wrote:
i'm getting the sense that road tubeless is like disc brake: nobody's going to ask your opinion or mine; this is where the industry is going.


It's going there really slowly.... Really, how much progress has it made lately?

It didn't take long for tubeless to dominate MTB. On road bikes the only benefit shows up if you run over goatheads regularly. Even then a latex tube will usually not puncture, IME.


i think gravel is the key. tubeless is taking over gravel as well, which will bring tubeless down to 33mm or 35mm and by then you're pretty much a skip away from road.


The thing is...practically speaking, that "skip" is quite large. And, it's mostly that large due to the differing use cases and dominant failure modes between gravel/MTBs and road cycling.


Think of it this way: Why did tubeless get adopted so quickly in MTBs, yet seems to be struggling to gain a hold in road cycling? What problem did the technology solve in MTBs? And, is that same problem also a major driver in road applications?


In a recent CyclingTips podcast on this subject, Caley Fretz summed it up quite clearly, in that THE major problem that tubeless technology solved for MTBs is pinch-flatting. Pinch-flatting in cycling applications on rough/rocky surfaces is a much bigger problem than punctures. I can attest to that myself in my own long-term MTB use. The tubeless technology immediately allowed MTBers to run much lower pressures than they would be able to with tubes (without fear of pinch-flatting), and they gained the traction, control, AND rolling resistance advantages of that lower pressure. That's a win...and it's no mystery that people were quick to move to it. Heck, even I experimented with DIY tubeless on my MTB before the manufacturers got on board and figured things out. That type of clamoring hasn't existed in the road biking realm.


The desire for tubeless in "gravel" is much the same...as I've said before, these bikes are really just vastly improved rigid MTBs with drop bars ;-) Pinch flat protection is the main desire in that use case as well.


Now then...let's look at tubeless for road applications. Here, arguably the higher failure mode is punctures. Pinch flats are a far lesser concern (even more so when running latex tubes). This is where the technology falls short, in that the sealants can't really handle plugging all but the smallest holes, and not without a fairly large loss of pressure (due to the much lower air volumes as compared to MTB/gravel tires), and usually not without a large mess or needing to stop and "fiddle" with the wheel anyway. That's been my experience with using road tubeless. Now then, I don't live in a place where goatheads are prevalent...but, if I did, I'm sure I'd be more excited about dealing with the road tubeless downsides to better deal with that. But, like most road users...I don't live in that territory.


So...once again, people are projecting that a certain technology is the "best" for all use cases due to it being appropriate for particular use cases. The problem is, the conditions and failure mode rates are different, and so that's not necessarily the case.


Slowman wrote:

what are the advantages? here's what i'd say, theoretically, at least:

1. lower Crr - Not really. A latex tube doesn't add any measurable Crr vs. a tubeless tire at road pressures. "Theoretically", why would you expect tubeless to be able to have lower Crr?
2. no flats - "No"? Hmmm...then why does anyone worry about being able to break a bead to swap in a tube? Or, carry plug kits?
3. if you do get a flat, plug it - Yes. But, even some flats (e.g. sidewall cuts) may require a boot and tube anyway, which can be made doubly hard by dealing with a non-stretchable tubeless bead.
4. no leakdown (remember, you'll need latex tubes to match tubeless performance) - "No"? Sure, it's slower...but is leakdown of latex tubes really a problem? My experience says no.
5. 1 product instead of 2 (no tube needed) - Actually, same part count. The tubeless setup still needs a valve. On tubed setups, it happens to be attached to the tube ;-)
6. for manufacturers, it means the chinese will have to catch up to a new standard - They'll just copy it to various levels of success, as has happened in the past...and then sell it for much less.

Slowman wrote:
on that last part, you might think that's easy, but it's going to take the chinese some time to catch up to the precision required for a tubeless. rim and matching tire. esp if there is any IP to protect western wheel makers. - I have a feeling that trying to enforce IP in this product space is not going to help speed up adoption.


Slowman wrote:
and then finally, who is investing in tubed gravel tires and wheels right now?


Ummm...seems to me that "tubeless" gravel tires and wheels are ALSO tube-capable, no?


Slowman wrote:

at least that's my guess. i believe i was the lone voice in the wilderness 3 years ago in my disc brake in tri prognostication. so, do you feel lucky? do ya, punk. ;-)


What exactly was your prognostication? That they'd exist?...They certainly haven't been quickly adopted. Merely existing wasn't much of a stretch, seeing as how they existed back then already ;-)

i cannot find a thing to disagree with in what you just wrote. nevertheless, i still predict in 5 years we'll all be riding tubeless for road.


Dan Empfield
aka Slowman
Quote Reply
Re: Road Tubeless Poll [Slowman] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
Slowman wrote:
do you feel lucky? do ya, punk. ;-)

Ya... I counted 6 shots...;)

And no direct hits.

It works for gravel because it's low psi; same for cross. Higher pressures require better tolerances and tighter beads to keep the tire on. Plus the sealant doesn't work nearly as well.

If low Crr really was a benefit, I think we would have seen it by now. But they have to build the air retention into the tire. And if they hold air better than a latex tube, then there is going to be a Crr hit from that. Most punctures that will pop a latex tube won't be plugged by sealant. And don't you kinda need sealant for tubeless? That's a messy additional product. I think the Chinese will catch up about as fast as they need to. Aren't nearly all rims tubeless compatible anyway?
Quote Reply
Re: Road Tubeless Poll [rruff] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
rruff wrote:
If low Crr really was a benefit, I think we would have seen it by now. But they have to build the air retention into the tire. And if they hold air better than a latex tube, then there is going to be a Crr hit from that.

I'm still waiting for a handmade fabric casing with the tread glued on (like a Vittoria or Veloflex "open tubular") with a coating of latex on the inside for air retention, and a tubeless bead. Could be the best of all worlds.

rruff wrote:
Aren't nearly all rims tubeless compatible anyway?

No, they're not. And don't even start with the "any rim can be set up tubeless". That's bullshit, unless you've got all day and an endless supply of patience and bourbon. Setting up (road) tubeless on a tubeless specific rim can still be a PITA, even with compressors and tricks. That's likely what's keeping it from mainstream acceptance.
Quote Reply
Re: Road Tubeless Poll [vjohn] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
vjohn wrote:
rruff wrote:

If low Crr really was a benefit, I think we would have seen it by now. But they have to build the air retention into the tire. And if they hold air better than a latex tube, then there is going to be a Crr hit from that.


I'm still waiting for a handmade fabric casing with the tread glued on (like a Vittoria or Veloflex "open tubular") with a coating of latex on the inside for air retention, and a tubeless bead. Could be the best of all worlds.


The Vittoria Corsa Speed says "Hello!" ;-)

edit: Besides, that tire is no lower Crr set up tubeless than if you put a latex tube inside it. So, where's the "theoretical advantage" of lower Crr?



http://bikeblather.blogspot.com/
Last edited by: Tom A.: Jun 7, 18 6:21
Quote Reply
Re: Road Tubeless Poll [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
I ride with Hed Belgium's on my road bike which are tubeless ready and as much as I'd be interested to try it topics like this one always convince me to stick with tried and trusted GP4000 and a tube. It seems there is nowhere near enough consistency in ride quality, puncture resistance, and durability with tubeless compared to a good tire with a tube.
Quote Reply

Prev Next