I've been tubeless since 2015.
Schwalbe one's for the road have worked very well for me.
Specialized Roubaix's for Montana dirt roads. I've ridden around 1500 dirt/gravel miles on them without a flat. They roll quickly on the road as well. (IMO, no idea on actual data) I use them in a 25mm.

I love that I can finish a race, find out I had a puncture and only lost 10 psi.

I won't be riding "road tubeless" until someone makes one that is as fast AND as durable as my current "every day" road tire...the Turbo Cotton w/latex tubes.

That said, if I lived somewhere in which the majority of my flats were from small "pin prick" type punctures, I might think otherwise...

---

http://bikeblather.blogspot.com/

I'm not familiar with Montana dirt roads...do you get chunky gravel? If the Roubaix hold up to that, they might be my next choice. Running them with Stan's?

---

-Physiojoe
Instagram: @thephysiojoe
Cycling coach, Elite racer on Wooster Bikewerks p/b Wootown Bagels

i'm getting the sense that road tubeless is like disc brake: nobody's going to ask your opinion or mine; this is where the industry is going.

i think all the wheel and tire makers got together in davos and decided:

1. to find tech the chinese haven't open molded;
2. to decide on one tech that could be explored throughout the various bike styles.

hence disc brake and tubeless. i think we'll see a convergence in wheels and tires. we won't see, for example, wheels for gravel and wheels for tri. we'll just see wheels. the only differentiator (other than wheelsize) is going to be the distance across between the beads. wheels will be: 622mm v 586mm, and then the depth (40mm, 60mm), and then the distance between beads (19mm, 21mm, 24mm). otherwise, a wheel's a wheel's a wheel.

that's where i suspect we'll end up.

---

Dan Empfield
aka Slowman

Also a big fan of the schwalbe one tubeless, have had a set [25mm] on my commuter bike and they're sublime. No puncture, excellent roll resistance, superior grip in all conditions, and fairly good longevity so far.
If I had tubeless ready rims on my tribike I'd race them with confidence

---

res, non verba

I'm going to pull off my tubeless tires before my big weekend ride. Got a rather large cut on my rear that sealant would not seal and I tried to patch it, but it started leaking slowly again. Only has about 500 miles on the tire..so I was trying to get a little more life out of it.

Dont know if I am done forever... but back to Turbo Cottons on this wheelset for sure.

Ironically, the "push" for separate braking discs only makes the cheap carbon rims more feasible and will most likely only hurt the established rim companies.

Also...I think you overestimate the ability for this particular industry to "collude". I try not to ascribe "evil intent" to actions that can easily be explained by mere incompetence ;-)

In any case...none of that changes my initial statement in this thread.

---

http://bikeblather.blogspot.com/

i wish the industry would collude, at least tire makers with wheel makers, because one real problem i have with tubeless is the spotty relationships tires have with rims. especially in road. i'm riding a rim and wheel right now where i don't think this tire is ever coming off this wheel until it's cut off.

---

Dan Empfield
aka Slowman

Hutchinsons are the absolute worst as far as I can tell, and I've been tubeless for >5 years and have tried a lot of tires.

For a focus on durability I'd look at the IRC Roadlite 25 or the Bontrager R2 or R3 in 26. The IRC's will be closer to 27-28mm on a modern, wide rim. The Bontragers will be more true to size. The IRCs are a touch easier to mount, in my experience.

None of these tires are incredibly fast, but they're not slow by any means. I've ridden all of them extensively on NM & CO dirt roads, they are durable.

I'm using Schwalbe one's on my road bike and really like them, despite some bad luck with punctures. I have had three punctures in the tread this year that were too big for the Stan's to seal. I carry the Dyna Plug tool and that has been plenty good enough to get me home, but I have about a 50% success rate of the plug being a long term fix.

All that said, with tubulars on my TT bike, tubeless on road bike and tubes on commuter..... tubeless is my preference. Small punctures are sealed immediately and larger ones can be fixed in less than a minute with the Dyna Plug. It's not a big enough preference to justify buying new wheels, but I will likely migrate as the opportunity presents itself.

I don't necessarily disagree with the direction you think the industry is headed...but I'm thinking about all of the incentives bike companies have to push disc brakes upon us: need completely new bike, new wheels, can't transfer old cable-brake shifters onto other bikes so more new purchases required.

What incentive do they have to push road tubeless? To help Stan's sell $16 rolls of tape, or to help a bike shop get a $100 tire sale instead of a $70 sale?

I also think that if "the industry" really wants to make tubeless a thing, on any bike, they need to have shops sell it to the customer like that. Why make it an extra $100 (sealant, labor etc) step that you must take on your "tubeless ready" bike?

I know local cat 4's who raced cyclocross on their tubed tires and wondered why they flatted every other race. Yet their knowledge of tubeless, let alone setting it up themselves, is nonexistent. If it would have come from the shop like that, they would be having way more fun and actually finishing races.

---

-Physiojoe
Instagram: @thephysiojoe
Cycling coach, Elite racer on Wooster Bikewerks p/b Wootown Bagels

It's going there really slowly.... Really, how much progress has it made lately?

It didn't take long for tubeless to dominate MTB. On road bikes the only benefit shows up if you run over goatheads regularly. Even then a latex tube will usually not puncture, IME.

You'll come across patches of thicker gravel, but most of the year there is a line to ride where it's just dirt.

If I was on loose gravel or chunkier gravel, I'd want a lot bigger tire with more tread. I don't think the roubaix would handle well in consistent think gravel.

Exactly. I suspect this initiative started with the idea of reducing SKU count.

Yes, horror stories of mounting/seating/dismounting have been the major deterrent for me. Mavic seems to have licked that with UST. Now that it's been confirmed that the the Mavic UST road tires don't suck for .crr, a matched set of Mavic UST wheels/tires will be my next big purchase for the road bike.

---

"They're made of latex, not nitroglycerin"

i think gravel is the key. tubeless is taking over gravel as well, which will bring tubeless down to 33mm or 35mm and by then you're pretty much a skip away from road.

what are the advantages? here's what i'd say, theoretically, at least:

1. lower Crr
2. no flats
3. if you do get a flat, plug it
4. no leakdown (remember, you'll need latex tubes to match tubeless performance)
5. 1 product instead of 2 (no tube needed)
6. for manufacturers, it means the chinese will have to catch up to a new standard

on that last part, you might think that's easy, but it's going to take the chinese some time to catch up to the precision required for a tubeless. rim and matching tire. esp if there is any IP to protect western wheel makers.

and then finally, who is investing in tubed gravel tires and wheels right now? or, rim brake gravel wheels? it's just human nature. wheel and tire makers are not going to want to get left in the dust, pardon the pun. as this translates down to road, nobody's going to want to invest in old tech, or what they see is old tech.

at least that's my guess. i believe i was the lone voice in the wilderness 3 years ago in my disc brake in tri prognostication. so, do you feel lucky? do ya, punk. ;-)

---

Dan Empfield
aka Slowman

I so badly want tubeless tires to work for my road bikes. But I want them to work like GP4000s mounted on my Zipps with latex tubes--i.e. mounted without tools in 30 seconds flat.

I've experimented with all the good roads tubeless tires and the result has always been frustration, sealant spray, pinched tubes, and many "fucks" and "fucking fucks" uttered. Often the endgame is taking a box-cutter to the tire to get it off (I'm looking at YOU Vittoria).

Until that happens I'll be sticking to the aforementioned combo. Happy to put up with a bit of faffing around when it comes to gravel and MTB tires, but road just needs to work.

yeah, well, the vittoria is a pretty unforgiving tire to mount/dismount. unless you use a box cutter.

but i put a zipp tire on a zipp wheel, and took it off, and it was buttah. so, what i'm saying is, this is where we're going. but there's going to be some fucking fucks on the journey.

---

Dan Empfield
aka Slowman

The thing is...practically speaking, that "skip" is quite large. And, it's mostly that large due to the differing use cases and dominant failure modes between gravel/MTBs and road cycling.


Think of it this way: Why did tubeless get adopted so quickly in MTBs, yet seems to be struggling to gain a hold in road cycling? What problem did the technology solve in MTBs? And, is that same problem also a major driver in road applications?


In a recent CyclingTips podcast on this subject, Caley Fretz summed it up quite clearly, in that THE major problem that tubeless technology solved for MTBs is pinch-flatting. Pinch-flatting in cycling applications on rough/rocky surfaces is a much bigger problem than punctures. I can attest to that myself in my own long-term MTB use. The tubeless technology immediately allowed MTBers to run much lower pressures than they would be able to with tubes (without fear of pinch-flatting), and they gained the traction, control, AND rolling resistance advantages of that lower pressure. That's a win...and it's no mystery that people were quick to move to it. Heck, even I experimented with DIY tubeless on my MTB before the manufacturers got on board and figured things out. That type of clamoring hasn't existed in the road biking realm.


The desire for tubeless in "gravel" is much the same...as I've said before, these bikes are really just vastly improved rigid MTBs with drop bars ;-) Pinch flat protection is the main desire in that use case as well.


Now then...let's look at tubeless for road applications. Here, arguably the higher failure mode is punctures. Pinch flats are a far lesser concern (even more so when running latex tubes). This is where the technology falls short, in that the sealants can't really handle plugging all but the smallest holes, and not without a fairly large loss of pressure (due to the much lower air volumes as compared to MTB/gravel tires), and usually not without a large mess or needing to stop and "fiddle" with the wheel anyway. That's been my experience with using road tubeless. Now then, I don't live in a place where goatheads are prevalent...but, if I did, I'm sure I'd be more excited about dealing with the road tubeless downsides to better deal with that. But, like most road users...I don't live in that territory.


So...once again, people are projecting that a certain technology is the "best" for all use cases due to it being appropriate for particular use cases. The problem is, the conditions and failure mode rates are different, and so that's not necessarily the case.

Ya... I counted 6 shots...;)

And no direct hits.

It works for gravel because it's low psi; same for cross. Higher pressures require better tolerances and tighter beads to keep the tire on. Plus the sealant doesn't work nearly as well.

If low Crr really was a benefit, I think we would have seen it by now. But they have to build the air retention into the tire. And if they hold air better than a latex tube, then there is going to be a Crr hit from that. Most punctures that will pop a latex tube won't be plugged by sealant. And don't you kinda need sealant for tubeless? That's a messy additional product. I think the Chinese will catch up about as fast as they need to. Aren't nearly all rims tubeless compatible anyway?

I'm still waiting for a handmade fabric casing with the tread glued on (like a Vittoria or Veloflex "open tubular") with a coating of latex on the inside for air retention, and a tubeless bead. Could be the best of all worlds.


No, they're not. And don't even start with the "any rim can be set up tubeless". That's bullshit, unless you've got all day and an endless supply of patience and bourbon. Setting up (road) tubeless on a tubeless specific rim can still be a PITA, even with compressors and tricks. That's likely what's keeping it from mainstream acceptance.

The Vittoria Corsa Speed says "Hello!" ;-)

edit: Besides, that tire is no lower Crr set up tubeless than if you put a latex tube inside it. So, where's the "theoretical advantage" of lower Crr?

---

http://bikeblather.blogspot.com/

I ride with Hed Belgium's on my road bike which are tubeless ready and as much as I'd be interested to try it topics like this one always convince me to stick with tried and trusted GP4000 and a tube. It seems there is nowhere near enough consistency in ride quality, puncture resistance, and durability with tubeless compared to a good tire with a tube.

I just bought a new road bike that came with tubeless ready wheels so I figured, what the heck.....I'll give road tubeless a try just to find out for myself. Had it spec'd with Schwalbe Pro One tires and as soon the tires show up.....guess I'll find out. Like has already been mentioned, tubeless on MTB and Gravel bikes is a no brainer. I recently converted my gravel bike with non specific tubeless rims to tubeless and setup was simple, easy (single CO2 shot seated each tire 1st try) and the ride has been nothing short of perfect (Maxxis 40c Ramblers).

It is interesting, I have not personally tried tubeless, but when I read accounts and reviews of various tubeless setups, usually is just a long a litany of quite significant problems and issues. Not super encouraging for me to take the leap.

Another thing, after a flat or tire cut while out on the road, is it possible on a road tubeless set up to get your bead to seat and seal (if the seal has been lost) with a hand operated pump by the side of the road, and not using a floor pump or a CO2 canister? My understanding is that (but correct me if I'm wrong) this is very very hard to do with road wheels. Or impossible.

---

Advanced Aero TopTube Storage for Road, Gravel, & Tri...ZeroSlip & Direct-mount, made in the USA.
DarkSpeedWorks.com.....Reviews.....Insta.....Facebook
--

I just pulled off my tubeless schwalbe pro ones last night... installed turbo cottons..what a PITA.. Then I remembered my other tubeless wheels has Silca tape.. so I pulled off the Stans tape and installed silca. Still PITA but finally got the TCs on with out pinching a tube. I serious pinched holes in 1 tube and destroyed 2 tire irons and lost one (went flying) it was pure comedy.

If you get a large cut, I doubt you lose the bead. I've had 3 large cuts now that have required new tires since experimenting with tubeless and I have never lost the bead. If you do though, I do think you will need CO2 at a minimum to get that sucker back on.

Pretty sure I'm gonna stick with tubes and clinchers from now on
All I can say installing tires on Non-tubeless ( or 2bliss lame specialized) wheelsets is a heck of alot easier.

This, basically. Until there is a tubeless equivalent of the GP4000, I'm sticking with tubes.

I just pulled off a brand new pair of Schwalbe Pro One 28's (so not even stretched one bit) off a set of DT Swiss PRC 1400's (tubeless wheels). Although I used metal tire levers, it wasn't all that difficult to pull the tires off. First bead I needed the levers, 2nd bead I was able to pull off by hand. Installed a pair of GP4000 which I actually think were tighter but was still able to install by hand, but it took some effort to roll the last 4-5" on the rim. I think it's VERY important to make sure at all times that the tire beads are sitting in the center of the rim channel and not along an edge. Could I do this on the road?.....sure, but I'll make sure to pack metal tire levers.

I'll also have to play around with the tubeless tape used on the DT rims as it "looks" to be on the thicker side. A thinner tape would make mounting and removing a bit easier. I've been using this tape on my gravel wheelset (2 layers) and it's pretty thin (and strong). Tesa 4288 Tape for $10.99 Tubeless Rim Tape 19mm x 55 Meters. I bought it on ebay a few months ago but no longer see it listed so it may have had a name change.......https://www.tesa.com/industry/tesa-4288.html

There was 2 layers of stans when I was running tubeless and it was kinda lifting in places here and there.. removed and used 1 layer of 25mm Silca which I have been running on my Enve 7.8 with Turbo Cotton with no issues. Tires were a little bit easier to install on my Enve 2.2 after using the Silca tape..., but my thumb are still suffering....

Dont feel good about using metal levers on carbon wheels though.

Set up my new Roubaix with Spesh Turb Pro 2Bliss and have been pretty happy with them. They mount super easy on the Roval CL 50 rims. I run the size 28 rubber which measure out to around 31 and go with pressure in low 70's depending on ride. I tried the Roubaix Pro tubless as well (size 30) and surprizingly they fit ok in back but rubbed fork on front. Those are more durable but heavier.

I am really sold on the whole road/disc/tubeless revolution. I avoided carbon clinchers with rim brakes for years but now no worries.

Benv wrote:

I ride with Hed Belgium's on my road bike which are tubeless ready and as much as I'd be interested to try it topics like this one always convince me to stick with tried and trusted GP4000 and a tube. It seems there is nowhere near enough consistency in ride quality, puncture resistance, and durability with tubeless compared to a good tire with a tube.

My experience has been the opposite....stopping at the roadside is a very rare occurrence for me since going tubeless. While going tubed, I'd have to stop and swap out tubes may a dozen or so times per year (~10K miles). Now it's maybe once per year. Sealant is pretty incredible stuff. It works (almost) every. damned. time. But I live in an area with a lot of pinch flat risk (potholes, ec), and goathead risk. If you live in an area with more pristine road surfaces, I could see the additional setup and maintenance factor factoring in.

My next bike I'm going UST (probably stuck with disc brakes which is why I dont get it now). Goatheads out here are bad, and in one week I had 8 flats and was spending over $100 a month on tubes. Since then I commute to work on my tubeless CX bike, and most of my road bike or TT rides are on Gatorskins. If UST works half as well as my CX tubeless and as well as the UST system is reviewed it will be a great buy. If not, I can just put my GP2k's on them.

yeah I'm pretty worried about goat heads too with Summer approaching and I've been riding with some friends out in the central valley (ca).. but all my flats on tubeless (that I know of) have been cuts.. tire killing cuts. Yeah I've had cuts on Turbo Cottons too.. put some super glue in them and continue. However the cuts I've been getting on my tubeless schwalbe pro-one have been tire life ending, call of shame to my better half for a ride home... it sucks.

I have a hard time taking advice from someone who has 12 flats per year or one every 833 miles... I have a flat on average once or twice a year. Either way, I think the feedback on tubeless tires is much more inconsistent than on clinchers with tubes; the percentage of people having a bad experience with, say, a Conti GP4000 is very low whereas topics about tubeless always show very mixed feedback. I'm not going to try something with mixed feedback if I have a setup that has worked very well for many years and for the most part others have the exact same experience.

Yeah, like I said if you live in an area with nice roads, it may not be worth it. And I'm not "giving advice," just giving my experience with road tubeless. Relax, it's OK.

an sworks tubelss on an enve rim is the hardest combo i have ever endured, by a lot. used it last year and did not bother with a repair kit cuz there was no way without ample sudsy water. and i can get 90% of normal combos on sans tools.

I'm a bike course guy for an event company (mostly tris) and have changed many tubes/tires. I encountered my first combo I COULD NOT change last weekend. A Reynolds tubeless wheel and a Conti Gatorskin... seriously the bead for the tire was so tight to the bed of wheel I couldn't move it over a mm to use a lever in... I pinched, pulled, etc to no avail. It was not a tubeless setup... but a tire/tube on a tubless ready wheel.

My theory is it was probably a pinch flat... new bike, new wheels and tires with less than 100 miles.

I'm guessing I might see this one more and won't spend as much time fiddling with it next time. Tubeless wheels with super tight tires...

I'm assuming most of this comes down to goat heads? I have plenty of !@#$ roads, but no goat heads. With around 5,000 road miles I usually get around 1 flat a year running GP4000 + butyl tubes. Usually from a sidewall cut after rain washes sharp gravel onto the road.

Yup. This is why I think that many (but likely not all) government conspiracy theories aren't real. In most cases, I think it's less likely that the conspiracy is true, and more likely that they're not actually organized enough to pull it off (and that everyone involved would keep their mouths shut).

The other thing about road tubeless that a lot of people forget is air travel. When I was traveling and racing all the time, I had to deflate my tires most or all of the way, depending on the bike box used. That's a recipe for a sealant mess, and it made much more sense to use inner tubes.

I'm in the camp of "tried tubeless for every application - tons of different tires, tons of different wheels... I'm mostly back on tubes". I do use it for MTB, because of the arguments laid out in this thread (i.e. the advantages are clear). I'm also very picky about what wheels and tires I use. I don't have an air compressor, and I don't want to cut tires off because they're too tight (been there). I've had great success with using Hed Ardennes/Belgium rims (yes, they're approved for XC mountain use... and the inner rim profile seems to be very well done), with Maxxis tubeless-ready tires. They inflate with a floor pump, and I don't need tire levers. I've also gravitated towards Caffelatex and Orange Seal. The Bontrager TLR stuff seems to seal very well, but I had trouble with it separating over time... the bottle looked like mostly water, with all of the chunks glued to the inside of the bottle (no amount of shaking did anything). Seemed to do the same thing inside my tires, and it leaked quite a bit. I had a sealed/unopened bottle that sat for about 2 years - completely unusable when I opened it.

If road tubeless can get to a consistent level that's easy to install, I'm open to trying again. I see a lot of bike industry people being in support of it, but most don't fly to race often or do a heavy triathlon training schedule, and they can mess with their bikes/wheels/tires at the office during their work day. And in many cases they're getting free wheels and/or tires. Nothing against them - it's just not your average triathlon/road consumer.

This is a handy solution for draining your tires of most of their sealant prior to deflation: https://milkit.bike/en

I've had two successful, reliable tubeless setup in four attempts on gravel, fat, MTB and road wheels. All setups were incredibly annoying to get done. Also, I was always nervous about both getting a tube in there if I had to on the side of the road and storing bikes with tubeless setups in my hot garage. I don't need this stress. I gave up on tubeless. Swapping a tube takes no time at all and I very rarely flat anyway. I even run tubes on my mountain bike.

Personally I've had an internal battle over this issue. I have a set of 404 NSW wheels that I've taken to A2 and raced on a few times. Changing tubes/tires on those wheels is so easy and so fast that I wonder if tubeless is worth it. Excluding the time it takes to get the wheel off, it probably only takes me 0:45-1:00 tops to get one bead off, pull the tube out, pop a new tube in, and get the bead back on... and I'm it's not like I'm frantic during the process. It's smooth and stress free. I can't say that any of the tubeless tire installations I've done have been stress free and I'd imagine a tubeless repair would be a nightmare.

If I were racing long course, this would be a really easy choice: I'd use non-tubeless rims (such as my NSWs), latex tubes, and fast tires. If I flat, no big deal no matter how bad the flat is. One to two minutes isn't the end of your race in long course (IMO).

I primarily race short course which means one to two minutes to fix a flat is the end of my race (no chance at the podium). That's why I'm experimenting with tubeless. My calculus is that for every frustrating ten minute flat repair I have with a tubeless tire I'll save two repairs from a minor puncture properly sealing. Since there's no difference in short course between a ten minute repair and a one minute repair, tubeless should on net be a better choice. In theory.

I have been on road tubeless for many years and almost never on a road tubeless specific rim. I have said a lot of hecking hecks. The loudest hecking hecks have been with Corsa Speeds and a Swiss Side rim. Last night, I put a pair of Corsa Speeds on the most recent HED Plus rims with just my thumbs. One was brand new. They came off with one blue lever. That being said, I'm going to run tubes with those tires because tubeless punctures do a crap job of sealing anything bigger than a pin prick and retaining 70+ psi. Now that I know I can get a tube replaced in 'normal' time and there's no tubeless rolling resistance advantage vs. a latex tube, I'm going to stick to the clean and easy route.

Tube free on mt bike, cx and gravel forever though.

pretty much all my wheelsets that are clinchers are tubeless readt... I had for sale a custom wheelset Enve 4.5 w/ extralite hubs that are not tubeless... well I'm thinking of keeping them now. :)

25mm Corsa Speeds?

No, the original lever busting 23's from 2016. I had bought three and used two. After seeing how well the used one (that broke a tire lever coming off my old wheels the day before) went on, I tried the new one and it also went on with thumbs only when properly in the center channel. I would have cried tears of joy if I knew how to cry.

I can't decide if HED, Vittoria, or both have some serious variations with regards to bead seat diameter. I have a HED Belgium+ rim that I could mount any Continental tire to with my toes but when it comes to my Jet+ rims it's virtually impossible for me to mount a Corsa Speed tire... and I know I'm not alone in that.

FWIW - Mounting them without being perfectly in the center channel would have been ridiculously hard. The thumbs-only was without inner tubes. I tried throwing an inner tube in the rear afterwards and mounting the tire bead became a bit harder. They didn't seat until ~90psi so I don't think the BSD is undersized. My Ardennes *seemed* to be a very similar experience. Deep center channel for mounting tires, but a tight fit on the 'shelf' once in place. I wish they had a bit of a ridge to lock the bead in place at low/no pressure for less tubeless mess, but I'm happy otherwise.

I've run Schwalbe Pro One tires on my road bike (with DA C24 TL wheels) for just about years now, and have gotten maybe 4 or 5 total unsealable flats in that time. Small punctures sealed up fine, and the flats came from big cuts that orange seal couldn't handle. When those happened, I just put in a regular tube, pumped it up (which re-seated the bead easily with a CO2 cartridge) and rode away like it was a regular clincher. Least trouble I've ever had. The Pro One tires aren't the longest lasting, but while they're in service, they have been pretty great all around, including racing and training. Thin tread though, so not ideal as a commuter tire.

Just started running the Vittoria Corsa Speed G+ tubeless tires on the TT bike in April, but instead of running tubeless, I decided to try latex tubes for the first time, just out of curiosity. After seeing a buddy at the state TT event last weekend get a puncture just before the start (and his sealant healed it), I'm wondering if it was perhaps the wrong idea for me to run tubes when the wheels (Hed +) and the tires are both tubeless ready. Time will tell. Will eventually switch over to tubeless on the TT bike as well I'm sure.

Good grief ...what nonsense. I recently received a set of wheels shipped to the USA from England (Hunt Wheels) with Schwalbe Pro One tubeless tires already mounted and with sealant. PSI had been rolled back to about 40 and they arrived all set for me to mount them up, pump them up and ride.

I've been riding tubeless since road tubeless first emerged on the scene quite a number of years ago now. Y'all sound like a bunch of morons who don't know how to turn a barrel adjuster to fix a clicking rear derailleur. Tubeless isn't rocket science, but it's different. And if you take a little time and figure out what you're doing, you'll find it's really a very good alternative. IMHO, there are a number of CRAP tubeless tires out there. I was fortunate that I found some really good ones really early on. IRC makes excellent tubeless tires and they're my usual go-to brand. I've never been a fan of Schwalbe until the Pro Ones. They're very nice tires.

In a decade of riding tubeless and riding somewhere in the 8,000 to 10,000 mile per year range, I've had two flats. One was a huge screw that punched clear through the tire both going in and exiting. It was game over. The other was messy, with sealant spraying all over the frame. But it sealed and it got me home. I'm sure there were many others I don't even know happened. The sealant did its job and I rode on.

I never see any rolling resistance data on the IRC rrbc tubeless setup I like to run. I have a lot of bikes and some aren't set up tubeless ... in which case I normally run Conti 4000 S ii with latex tubes. The Contis feel like slumming it.

I'm sad for all of you who have given road tubeless a half-assed try and written it off. It's not that hard and it IS that good!

---

Stay aero my friends.

2 flats in a decade... I'd run tubeless too.

were is the rolleyes emoji

I for one and probably many others did not half ass the attempt. I have not completely bin'd it, but am thinking about when and where it would be beneficial to me.

I'm definitely not this gung-ho about road tubeless, but your post reminds me a little of myself when I hear someone is still running tubed cyclocross or MTB tires.

The installation process is not the deterrent and should never be- in any tubeless application. As mentioned in my original post, I had trusted Hutchinson road tubeless, and when their new tire (Fusion 3) was not as robust as past versions, I just went back to training on tubed road tires.

It's not even Hutchinson's fault, except for not making it clear that they took a robust tire capable of handling dirt roads (Fusion 2) and turned it into a road-racey-ish tire (Fusion 3) that should have had a separate name altogether.

---

-Physiojoe
Instagram: @thephysiojoe
Cycling coach, Elite racer on Wooster Bikewerks p/b Wootown Bagels

That's one thing that really limits tubeless suitability for road. Thorns and staples rarely puncture latex tubes anyway. I usually get flats from sidewall cuts.

I'm not so sure about that. But my biggest problem with latex was always if there was *any* cut or hole and the tube survived whatever object it was, once that object got ejected, the tube would just bubble on out and explode. While butyl can handle a pretty good size hole or cut before you need to boot it, latex can find it's way through anything larger than a pin prick.

while in general agreement i beg to differ about the "installation process". when you can't mount a tire with your hand, that's bad. when it takes an act of congress to mount/dismount a tire with multiple levers, that's no go. and, there is virtually no tubed tire i can't mount on any tubed rim with my hands. so (vittoria) i'm sorry but there is a limit.

that's as to the tire. otherwise, if i need 110psi in a tire to get a 50psi tire to pop up into the bead, sorry, i'm taking a pass. no, we aren't all the way there. but, yeah, when it's good it's good.

---

Dan Empfield
aka Slowman

True. But goatheads, staples, tacks, and random little wires are pin pricks IME. I can pull them out and keep riding.

Shimano Dura Ace tubeless ready (aluminum) wheels and Velocity Super V (tubeless converted with Stans tape) were both pretty easy.

2 levers to get the tire on, 1 co2 cartridge to get the bead to pop. Spin it around to slosh sealant around, finish inflating.

---

-Physiojoe
Instagram: @thephysiojoe
Cycling coach, Elite racer on Wooster Bikewerks p/b Wootown Bagels

question: tell me your history with mounting tires without any levers.

---

Dan Empfield
aka Slowman

I run Pro One in 700x28mm or Specialized S Works 700x28mm.
Both feel fairly fast and ride nice. The S Works might be a bit fragile though.

I would love to see the Vittoria G+ in a 700X28 and 700x30.

If the tire fits really loosely I won't use levers, but otherwise I do.

My hands are fully functional, but I've messed up fingers in a couple crashes- I probably don't have all the strength in them that I should.

---

-Physiojoe
Instagram: @thephysiojoe
Cycling coach, Elite racer on Wooster Bikewerks p/b Wootown Bagels

My own personal experience with road tubeless is that if you need to use a tire lever to get the bead on or off, chances are it won't seal.... or at least it won't seal without a lot of added sealant, cursing, and failed attempts.

Edit: what do you think about the idea of rim tape with "compressible" edges to help facilitate the seal when the bead is slightly stretched and/or oversized?

you're asking the wrong guy.

---

Dan Empfield
aka Slowman

Look out, everyone, we've got a badass here!

I'd like to subscribe to your newsletter. Please. Teach me. :rolleyes:

I am in the Tom A. court of waiting for a real data driven evidence based benefit of tubeless for road and tri. Not talking about gravel, I don't live in an area with goatheads. I have about 1 flat every 2-3 years on my road wheels. I am riding 3 year old latex tubes in my race wheels now.

My mountain bikes which are tubeless so far have needed new sealant each year because the bead seems to loose the ability to seal, and when I add it there is stans boogers lining the tires. No thank you for my road tires.... I have never weighed them but each time you put in new sealant you are adding 50 grams per tire.

If I were a tire manufacturer I would be totally frothing at the mouth aroused at the prospect of converting the masses to tubeless. Mountain bike tires have gone up in price minimally 50% since the tubeless revolution. You are looking at $95 each for tubeless mountain tires. I am sure we will be paying the same for road tires.

I am sure once the ceos and cfos of bike tire companies figure they can grow sales by 50% with a 2-3 years of marketing hype and BS we will all be on tubeless whether they ever prove a benefit or not.

Maybe tire prices just went up? Here are some MSRP's for good road tires, TLR and just plain clinchers:

$75 Conti GP 4000SII
$80 Conti GP TT
$80 (t) Schwalbe Pro One
$70 (t) Hutchinson Fusion 5G
$75 Michelin Pro4 Comp
$79 (t) Vittoria Corsa Speed
$74 (t) Zipp Tangente RT25
$74 Conti Force
$80 S-Works Turbo Cotton
$100 (t) S-Works Turbo Tubeless:

None of those tires are exactly cheap, but I don't see any real pattern except the one outlier from Specialized.

Of course you can get 25-50% off those MSRP prices by avoiding your LBS. :) (except Specialized)

Sealant is pretty cheap too. You can get a quart of Stan's for like $25, or roughly the price of 2 latex tubes. A quart should last years for road applications.

I buy my turbo cottons when it's buy one get the second for 50% off..(which was very recently) ..ends up being about 65 each after taxes

Interestingly enough...in that Cyclingtips podcast I mentioned above, Caley Fretz explained that one of the main reasons he doesn't run tubeless on his road racing bike is because he uses it so infrequently, it would be a PITA keeping on top if the sealant and making sure it doesn't dry out, and especially not all in one spot in the tire.

That comment made me chuckle a bit, because that's basically the same reason I DON'T run tubeless on my full-suspension MTB. I use it so infrequently, it's infinitely easier to just run latex tubes in the 26" wheels. You can run pressures just as low as with tubeless with little worry about pinch flatting. In fact, I've NEVER flatted a latex tube in a MTB tire. Thank science 26" latex tubes are still being made! The fact that latex tubes aren't made in 650B size really makes me hesitant about committing to a wheel set (for either the MTB, or the "gravel" bike) with rims that size.

Right now, about the only bike I desire to run tubeless on is my "all-road" rig...but, that's because with the more off-road wheel set, I'm typically running pressures as low as I can and so pinch flats become a hazard...while with my pavement/commuter setup, the sealant can handle the rare goat head or "Michelin wire" puncture. I use both of those wheel sets on a multiple-rides-per-week basis though.

If I rode the FS MTB more though, I'd most likely run it tubeless, if anything because puncture repairs with plugs are so easy.

---

http://bikeblather.blogspot.com/

I'm always surprised by this statement from people - that sealant dries up... It does, I know that, and I've seen it happen, but in my experience it's take a couple of years to happen on a bike I'm not using regularly. Normally in that timeframe I would have probably replaced the tyres at least once so it's a non issue. I just don't get that stance, how quick does it dry up for others?

My experience with tubeless; been running it in MTB for 10 years. In that time I've had one puncture that didn't seal, and the tyre in that case was destroyed.
Converted my CX bike a couple of years ago, non "TR" rims, running tubeless ready tyres, 15min install and never looked back. Not one puncture.
Converted my road wheels (non tubeless Enve 3.4) running Schwalbe Pro Ones and have not had one puncture. Pre tubeless I'd get perhaps 6-10 punctures per year. We don't have goatheads in NZ, but our roads are covered in glass and other random shit.
As to setting them up, yeah setting up a Mavic Aksium was a royal PITA, took me 20mins with no compressor. The Enves were a dream. As were my MTB wheels (Wheelworks Flites which are TR) no levers required at all. My takeaway has been that quality wheels make it easier to set up for sure.
For me though, tubeless means way less stops on the side of the road for punctures which has to be a win. And the Schwalbe Pro Ones ride awesomely around 65/70 PSI. Grippy, feel fast, comfy, whats to loose..?

This has been my experience in MTB tubeless: 0-12 months - perfect, no flats or hassles. 12-18 months, still good but some burps on hard hits / corners. 18+ Months - tires don't hold pressure well. I have 3 MTB wheelsets I circulate between 2 bikes.

I ride New England single track which is rock / root and typically there are technical sections in every mile or so.

Yeah, I think what happens is people leave the bike so long that pressure drops and the bead breaks. For whatever reason, sealant exposed to ambient air flow/pressure tends to dry much faster than pressurized sealant. It also seems to do better when it's moved around vs. pooled in one place where it "sets". Then they come back to their bike and find a puddle of dried sealant at the bottom.

So tubeless is for people who ride their bikes. :)

I'm on the fence as far as trying out a tubeless setup and this is exactly my experience with tubed tires for the last 20 years; a flat every other month or so which is always from something REALLY small like a piece of glass or a staple. If a tubeless setup will prevent these/seal them up then I would go years without a flat which would be great.

^ a staple maybe... piece of glass " it depends" I would certainly not count on it in my experience.

Well...let me relate a recent experience with a tire I have ridden nearly every day. Just last week I pulled a Compass Snoqualmie Pass EL off of the front wheel of an American Classic 101 set I had been using for commuting. That tire has been on there for over a year, and I had added sealant (~100ml) only around a month or 2 ago. At the time I had mounted a brand new standard version of the same tire (not Extra Light) on the rear, and topped off the front while doing so.

Anyway, I was quite surprised that ALL of the sealant in the front tire had solidified. It was evenly distributed around the casing (since I used that wheel quite often) but...it was completely dry. The bead had not been broken, and it held air very well...same as the rear. Interestingly, when I checked the rear, it still had liquid sealant remaining, but probably could stand to be topped off a bit. This is with Orange Seal, BTW.

So...I guess it depends on the tire, and its porosity as well, and perhaps the particular sealant. The EL versions of the Compass tires don't have quite as much rubber in the sidewalls as the standards.

---

http://bikeblather.blogspot.com/

That's basically the point Caley was making about road tubeless, and what I related about MTB tubeless...it's for EQUIPMENT that's ridden often.

That said, although I've dabbled in using tubeless on my road bike, the benefit/cost ratio can't match a nice clincher tire with a latex tube...at least for me, and where I ride. And it's not like I baby my tires either.




In fact, the set of 28C Turbo Cottons and latex tubes I put on my road bike before my April 3-day, mixed-surface trip are still going strong, with no punctures or pinch flats of any kind...and I've ridden a bunch of dirt roads and gravel on that setup in the mean time (I have ~1300-1500 miles on them about now).

---

http://bikeblather.blogspot.com/

It has for me, so far. I fully admit there's a hassle factor in the garage in setup and maintenance. But the tradeoff in greatly reduced roadside time is worth it for me. I *hate* having people in a group ride stop and wait for me, even though I can do a full tube change in < 2 minutes.

The other factor is in greatly reduced racing pinch flats, particularly given the tire pressures suggested by the optimal "impedance" pressure indicated by you and Josh. Using examples you're probably familiar with, the Lake Los Angeles TT course or Santa Barbara RR course have sections that are both, to put it mildly "roughened concrete" *and* absolute minefields for pinch flats. Running at ~90 PSI with a 23mm tire and 175lb bodyweight is an absolute risk with any tube. I was livid last year after making the final selection of 4 riders in the RR, and then being led into a pothole and pinch-flatting out of the winning break (in that case with a Vittoria latex tube).

So I'm nearly a pure convert. Only my track bike (tubular) and commuter bike (butyl) haven't been converted.

remember to add $15 to each non-tubeless.

---

Dan Empfield
aka Slowman

I was going to, but didn't want to fight the two people here who've claimed to have used the same pair of latex tubes since like 1962.

Have not ridden tubeless. Don’t really plan to. It’s not that I’m stubborn or not open minded it’s just that tubeless seems to cost a lot more money and limit choices for minor improvements that are not across the board. The day I can get a pair of tubeless that cost the same as a pair of conti ultra or Vittoria Zaffaros AND a pair of race tires such as my attack force combo, added to my stock but very fast TTR3 wheels is the day I begin to look at tubeless. Unless I’m missing something that’s still a ways off.

---

I still lapped everyone on the couch!

Tubeless also requires the cost of sealant (it's not zero) and maybe a special pump. Butyl tires are cheaper than latex (5 Conti's for $32 on amazon was my last order). I prefer butyl tubes over latex - I don't care about the giving up speed thing.

That's interesting Tom.
I'm putting some EL Snoqualmies on my new Open so will be curious to see how I get on with the sealant in those. It will be my 1 bike (sort of) so will get well used.

I've always used Stans so maybe there's a difference in how it does its thing compared to other sealant.

I would have loved to have seen message boards when index shifting first arrived in road biking...

I bet there were tons of purists talking about how friction shifters were better, easier to maintain, provided exactly the same level of performance, cost less money and were just industry pushing a new standard on us!

Would anyone want to go back to friction shifters on the downtube? Only the most obnoxious purists would....

It's the same thing with road tubeless. The technology is objectively better, it just requires a new skillset to maintain and a new mindset to accept.

I got a 1/4 inch gash yesterday in my tires and the puncture sealed itself right back up. I could have continued riding but I stopped and added some air for better road feel. I'm never going back to tubes.

In ten years, only the most obnoxious purists will be riding tubed tires on their road bikes. Especially, because the technology is only going to improve.

I think topics such as this one show exactly that the technology is not objectively better. Too many people have mixed experiences with tubeless. You may be a passionate advocate for tubeless but doesn't change the many issues with today's technology others have reported.

That's all anecdotal evidence, not objective. We don't have much in the way of objective data, except my price list and the various Crr data. Darn near impossible to objectively characterize things like comparative flat frequency or maintenance time.

I'm not sure why people are dividing into such dogmatic camps over it. There are disadvantages and advantages, and picking an option is based on how much you ride, where you ride, type of riding, and willingness to spend time learning new skills. E.g. quite a few here in goathead terrritory report "mixed experiences" with tubes.

I'm not upset that some people continue to use tubes. Not sure why some are upset that people choose to speak positively about going tubeless.

I guess the tubular-clincher argument has lost some steam, so we need something new.

You can find folks riding with friction downtube shifters, clips and toe straps, and leather saddles today. But they know why they're doing it, and it's not about there being an advantage to using them.

I remember going from friction to index shifters, and I thought it was great. There were some holdouts, but pretty much everyone made that change within a couple of years. Then someone (pro cyclist?) back in the 1990's-early 2000's made a comment to the effect, "The two recent changes that have been significant improvements are STI shifting/braking and clipless pedals. Everything else has been window dressing." I was there for these two changes too, and there were very few riders who didn't jump on the bandwagon from day one with both of these. The advantages were obvious and, more importantly, they worked straight out of the box and they were easy to use.

The advantages of things like disc brakes on road bikes and tubeless tires for road bikes are less obvious. Throw in the time it is taking for manufacturers to agree on standards that everyone will use and the issues people have had with tubeless tires, and it's not surprising that these two innovations haven't seen the same level of acceptance.

---

"Human existence is based upon two pillars: Compassion and knowledge. Compassion without knowledge is ineffective; Knowledge without compassion is inhuman." Victor Weisskopf.

I think that one reason road tubeless hasn't caught on is exactly what you described.

The upfront costs of tubeless are high (new wheels, tires, compressor, sealant, tape, frustration) and the benefits are less visible because they are avoidance benefits (ie..less likelihood of flats).

When you take a bike setup tubeless around the block you can't tell the difference. It's only overtime that you notice the benefits and even then you might not really notice them because you can still get flats.

It's really a matter of statistics and no ones brain thinks statistically. We think emotionally (even those of us who think we are Spock).

I live in MN and ride some pretty busted roads. Lots of pot holes that cause pinch flats. I was previously able to avoid pinch flats by running 110 PSI and as a consequence was getting my taint smashed by the end of the ride. Now I can ride 60 PSI on 28 mm tires and don't get taint-smashed and never get a flat. It is wonderful.

It seems to me, the folks who get the most upset in this discussion are the ones who say "road tubeless is the future" and then are met with calm responses of "Meh...I tried it. Doesn't seem to be worth the hassles".

---

http://bikeblather.blogspot.com/

Not true. I was there. With both indexed shifting and clipless pedals, the transition was nearly immediately accepted. It didn't take a decade+ like what is going on with road tubeless. That tells you something about whether or not the technology is truly "better"...


Based on my experiences (i.e. nothing greater than ~1mm puncture will actually seal effectively on the road), I'm calling BS on that...



About the only things I can see causing that to come true is one of the following:
- Tire manufacturers make more tubeless-ready models like the Corsa Speed (i.e. an "open tubular" style construction with latex coatings), but with more tread thickness (for better wear life)
or,
- Latex tubes are no longer being produced

---

http://bikeblather.blogspot.com/

I was one of the few people running road tubeless at Battenkill 2012. The race was MADE for tubeless road tires.

Over 6 years later, and road tubeless hasn't caught on much more than it had in 2012.

Mostly everyone converted to 11 speed in 2-3 years, disc brake bike sales have gone way up in 2-3 years, electronic road shifting has taken a bit more time but still more common than road tubeless and in less time on the market.

All of these other technologies have caught on incredibly quick, after the initial debate- compared to road tubeless.

---

-Physiojoe
Instagram: @thephysiojoe
Cycling coach, Elite racer on Wooster Bikewerks p/b Wootown Bagels

this is a nutshell... I'm in the meh crowd ( and it's a larger crowd) then road tubeless fans will admit too. I have 3 sets of tubeless ready rims.. so I'm ready when it improves, but I have a feeling I'll be road disc before I'm tubeless.

I seems like latex tubes with sealant provide all the benefit of tubeless and none of the hassle with extra tight tires, air compressors, etc.

With 27.5 wheels being all of ~5% larger, why wouldn't a 26" tube work in 27.5" wheels/tires?

It might...might be something to try.

Also, if it does work, doesn't that just point out the silliness of the bike industry in not being able to just "go back" to 26" after discovering that 29" isn't necessarily the "be all, end all" it was originally promoted as? Oh no, we can't do that. It would be admitting a mistake...we have to instead use a different wheel size that's only ~12mm on the radius larger than a 26" wheel <smh>

---

http://bikeblather.blogspot.com/

Ironically, there are 2 road tubeless technologies that I've found make clincher use even better than it was before, and that's smooth, plastic rim tape (awesome for latex tubes) and tubeless-ready rim bed shapes (which do a better job of retaining a bead if you do happen to flat, especially on polycotton casing tires, and make coming to a stop on a soft, or flat, tire safer).

---

http://bikeblather.blogspot.com/

I'm in the process of trying tubeless so have no real experience........but these really are the exact same conversations that were being had when mountain bikes went from thumb shifters to index, canti, to V's to disc, tubes to tubeless, cables to electronic shifting, road canti's to disc and tubes to tubeless. I'm no expert, but I don't think any of these new developments came, failed and everyone went back to the old tech?? Sure there will be some that hand one for whatever reasons, but "overall", the new developments turn out to be better once we have a few years behind them.

I don't think anyone is arguing that - but some people are early adopters of new technology and are willing to try things and take risk, whereas others want a technology to be established more before they jump in. No real right vs wrong there, that's a pure personality thing. People like myself who express a rationale why we're not convinced are more doing so because we are interested to jump on board, but feel the technology isn't established enough to our liking. Others may agree or disagree with that.

All I can say is I have been running tubeless on my new Roubaix for six months. The Spesh Turbo Pro's on Roval CLX 50's are super easy to install. I suppose sticking with one manufacturer helps but so far no downsides at all. Not a single flat to date and i love running 70-75 PSI on size 28 rubber than measures out to 30+. I am pretty confident it will get better just like it did in the mountain bike world. Tubes seem kinda silly to me now...just like they were in cars and motos.

Yeah, see...everyone's experience is different.

~1 year ago, I set up a Turbo Pro tubeless on my rear wheel (Jet 6+) to try out. After multiple punctures (each one requiring a plug) just riding as I normally do (and in a relatively short period), I decided to go back to a Turbo Cotton w/latex on that rim. Much less prevalence of flatting...in fact, I don't believe I've had a flat on the rear of my road bike since. Go figure.

---

http://bikeblather.blogspot.com/

I saw that and it is pretty cool. Their Valve Stem is interesting, but if you use it with wheels that are deep enough you need a valve extender you cannot release are from tires. Their bottle they are coming out with is pretty interesting too.

I have not had to use it yet, but I bought one of the dynaplug micro pro kits, if it works the way it is stated, as long as it is not a massive cut/hole, I think you could fix the tire in less than a minute then re-inflate.

Putting aside my tubeless fanboi hat for a second, and just reporting my extensive experience trying that -

Just my anecdotal report. I ran sealant in latex tubes for about 2 years before I switched to tubeless. I don't know why/how, but my experience was that it doesn't seal anywhere near as well as pure tubeless. Pure tubeless seems to seal about 90% of punctures by around 60PSI. Sealant in latex tubes seemed good for maybe 50%. I speculate maybe latex tubes are just more slippery than tire material, and don't grip the sealant as well? Or maybe the TLR tires are specifically designed to "coagulate" sealant? Whatever the reason, there seems to be a big discrepancy.

Also, once the sealant dries, your latex tube is pretty much done. You could maybe get two rounds of sealant through it, but then it starts to get pretty cumbersome.

And, lastly, you have to remember to park your bike stem up. Because latex clogging up the valve stem is annoying. It's also annoying with a pure tubeless stem. But with that, you can easily clean out the valve stem. Once a latex tube stem gets clogged, it's pretty much done.

Lastly, once you have a tube of any kind, pinch flats are back. And avoiding pinch flats is arguably the biggest single benefit of tubeless.

So I'd go back to pure latex tube with no sealant before trying the tube+sealant game again.

I think they have valves up to 85mm long if I recall...

The reason tubeless with sealant seals so much better than tubes with sealant (butyl or latex) is that tires and tubes move against each other, even at relatively high pressure. Exposure to air is what causes sealant to coagulate and seal, so with a tube you've got to hope that the hole in the tube stays aligned with the hole in the tire long enough for air to hit the sealant at the tube and actually seal. That works a good 50% of the time in my estimation, but not nearly as well as real tubeless.

Your other points are all entirely valid, I'm waiting for the latex fanbois to insist a latex tube won't pinch flat (spoiler - I ran latex tubes for years, they can pinch flat).

They definitely can...and I have done so...but nowhere near as easily as a butyl tube. A buyl tube will pinch flat just looking at it :-/

I've been pretty much exclusively riding with latex in my road wheels for quite some time. Just last week I put a pair of butyl tubes inside of a set of tires on wheels I intended to use for commuting. The first day on them, I pinch flatted the rear on a small, relatively sharp ledge that I ride over (pretty much every day) going into my yard. That never happened with road tires (of the same size and running same pressure) with latex tubes.

BTW, sealant inside of a latex tube works best on pinch flats IME, most likely because the "snakebite" openings tend to be quite small. In fact, I've "saved" a latex tube or 2 before that had slow leaks from holes I couldn't find bubble testing (due to not being able to put in enough pressure while leak checking). A little bit of sealant inside the tube made it just fine again.

---

http://bikeblather.blogspot.com/

not all riders, some of us retrogrouches will still be riding old-fangled tubes..

I have been a retrogrouch all my biking life, and switched to indexed and clipless within a year or two at most.. since they were clearly and obviously superior and it was just stupid to be grouchy about it..

The chap from BRR seems to believe there's a correlation between casing thickness an how effective sealant is at sealing holes. No data but I've seen him mention it a few times.

yes I can agree with you there.. I love Silcas tape.

Trail.....good info.. I thought of trying sealant in latex, but I'll probably pass on the sealant now.... I have not got a pinch flat in 2+ years.. since I hit a huge rock in a pace line (yes I was pissed at the group) because I nearly bit it at 30mph.

I really wanna try that tubolito stuff... it's awful pricy .

Well...that would be an unfortunate downside for road tubeless then, seeing as how casing thickness is typically inversely proportional to rolling resistance...

---

http://bikeblather.blogspot.com/

Something like that, but will not work on my flo90 :-p

Right. My $0.02 is that an ideal tubeless tire would be something like a GP4000 but without the vectran anti-puncture belt. So you would have a:
-fast compound
-a thick-ish tread which trades CRR for aero (by creating a “tall” profile)
-no butyl layer, rely on latex sealant.

Side note: have you tried the “glitter trick” with a tubeless tire yet? Has anyone here done it? I plan on giving it a try this season with a set of the new Mavic UST rims I just bought... assuming I find enough time to train and race.

I haven't added any extra "glitter" yet...I've been using Orange Seal, which has quite a bit of "stuff" in it already.

---

http://bikeblather.blogspot.com/

Hobby Lobby run on glitter now... what's next sprinkles ?

I'm giving road tubeless a break.. until winter maybe.

Also have not tried it, but also use Orange Seal. Think my wheels currently have the race formula in them.

Can good tubeless tires be had as cheap as GP4KS from online vendors? I gave tubeless a try with Hutchinson Fusion5 11storm and the tires are pricey, not available cheaper that I found, and the experience doesn't hold up to the GP4KS. Maybe the Pro1s would be better, but half the people who tried them said they're too fragile for normal usage. Is there a single "consensus" tubeless tire, to the degree of the GP4KS?

---

The point is, ladies and gentleman, that speed, for lack of a better word, is good. Speed is right, Speed works. Speed clarifies, cuts through, and captures the essence of the evolutionary spirit.

This generally results in significant seepage of sealant through the sidewalls. Not a problem functionally, but also not attractive.

This is one reason why Trek changed their Tubeless tires to have a butyl layer. Their original models did not have that layer, and they had seepage, which also caused some layer separation (bubbling) in the tire. After the new iteration I have not heard of that issue anymore from anyone I know that is running their R3 Tubeless tires.

Finally got around to mounting up a road tubeless setup tonight. DT Swiss PRC 1400's and 25 Schwalbe Pro One's (which measure an actual 27.5).

Took me all of 5 minutes to pull off the existing tubed tires and install and set up both front and rear.
I was able to mount both tires by hand although the last few inches were kind of semi-tough but not impossible. Used a single CO2 to inflate each tire - sealed up easily and a few hours later still no air loss.

I really think the key (besides a good rim/tire mix) is taking the time to make sure the tire bead stays centered in the rim when mounting and/or removing a tire. Key to inflate is just make sure the tire beads are on the outside of the valve.

Now, all the above being said I do realize that changing out on the road will be much harder.....sweaty hands and such, but crossing my fingers I don't have to deal with that any time soon.

Just to add to this so going tubeless doesn’t put fear in everyone considering the change. My setup has been loosing some psi over a few days so I figured I would pop the beads and apply some sealant on the beads to see if that would help a bit. Deflated both tires. Popping all the beads was no different than tubed tires (super easy). Applied sealant around all the beads and reinflated both tires with a normal floor pump (didn’t even have to inflate hard and fast).....2-3 pumps and wahla! This setup worked so well and I needed a spare wheelset around so I just bought the same wheelset in 60mm and will look to run that set tubeless as well.

I just got around to installing tubeless on a new wheelset which is a DT Swiss PRC 1400's 62mm (set above was 35mm) and a new set of Schwalbe Pro One Tubeless 25 's.

Really no difference is ease of installation. 1st tire was easy to install by hand and inflated with just a regular tire pump. The 2nd wheel mounting was a bit harder and needed a single lever to install the tire and a CO2 to inflate (pump would not work). This wheel had different tubeless tape installed so next time I have the tire off I'll replace it with some Stans tape.

Just to add another update to the fear and difficulties of running tubeless.
Ordered and received a set of Reynolds Aero 46 DB wheels from MyBikeShop and mounting Schwalbe Pro One's was even easier than with the DT Swiss wheels noted above. Literally mounted with ZERO effort and off with a single, cheap plastic lever (could probably do it with a stick on the side of the road). Inflated with an old and normal floor pump.
Hoping when Conti comes out with a tubeless GP4000 at some point in the near future that it's just as easy to mount.

it's a crap shoot when it comes to ease (rim/tire combo)

My 2 latest example....
1. HED Ardennes LT with Schwalbe 30C G-Speed,, stupid easy.. no tire irons, I have a dual chamber pump but probably didn't need it.

2. Enve 4.5AR with Schwalbe Pro-One 28C... PITA.. sore thumbs, 2 tire irons.. Once the chamber pump unloaded..I had to keep pumping quickly to seat the bead.

I can understand the fear of having to change a combo that is impossible to do on the road....truthfully, I would probably not even keep a combo (wheel/tire) setup that was that difficult/impossible to put a tube in roadside. I'm not holding my breath that a Conti GP4000 tubeless (whenever that becomes a reality) will be an easy tire to mount as I have several different Conti regular tires that are near impossible to mount already. I am just really glad I have 2 wheelset combos that are not going to be a problem what so ever right now.....as I have already seen 3 punctures seal and kept on rolling.