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The Triathlon Squad

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I love Slowtwitch.

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I think to be a "true" triathlete, you have to attempt to master each discipline. I think that takes at some point in your life, competing in each discipline individually, isolated from the others. Otherwise, you'll always be a runner that can bike and swim, or a cyclist that can swim and run, or a swimmer than can run and bike.

Just as part of cycling is climbing, sprinting and riding bicycles without aerobars. Part of swimming is flip turns, and those other 3 goofy strokes.

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No it doesn't make sense. Flip turns force you to work on breath control. As for covering more distance off the wall I would do that anyways as my best stroke in the 'day' was fly.

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OW swim specialists still train in pools too and they still do flip turns. You know the guys who swim 10k OW in 1:50 or so.

Perfect is the enemy of great - we only need to be great at all 3 disciplines.

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You have it backwards. Perfect isn't the enemy of great. Pursuing perfection is what makes you great. When you try for anything less than perfection your results will always be subpar because you're leaving things on the table before you even get started. I was a competitive swimmer for ten years, despite not being particularly talented. I managed to become a relatively decent division 3 swimmer. I know how much work it takes to become a great - by triathlon standards - swimmer.

The point I and others have been making is that people try to rationalize their shortcomings in swimming by saying what you're saying now..."It's triathlon, it's okay if my swim isn't perfect." Well, yeah, it's not perfect. It's okay if you're not perfect. But people aren't trying to be perfect. They're trying to be good enough through the use of toys, equipment, whatever. And when you're trying to be just good enough to get by, you wind up being bad. (No disrespect to the OP. I don't think it matters whether you do flipturns, but I don't know your training pattern so I don't want to assume anything.)

Finally, I get that as triathletes we have constraints on the amount of time we can spend in the pool. I'm not advocating spending 20 hours a week in the pool like I did back in the day. I'm talking about striving for perfection with the time that we do have in the pool. Too many triathletes want to minimize the effort they put into their swim EVEN WHEN they're in the pool.

"Perfect is the enemy of great - we only need to be great at all 3 disciplines."

I'd wager that you'd have a tough time finding a great swimmer who didn't do flip turns.

The problem with flip turns is that if you can do a good flip turn, you can cover a lot of distance where you are not swimming.

Whenever there's a flip-turn debate some ignoramus has to bring this up.

Well guess what? The push off, streamlining, the breakout, kick, back, fly, IM, etc etc etc...you know, all the things the under-achieving triathlon "swimmer" refuses to master...it's all swimming.

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blood, sweat...and big gears

I hated every minute of training, but I said, ''Don't quit. Suffer now and live the rest of your life as a champion.''
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I believe it was gary hall himself that says his son does not do flip turns unless at race pace...

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Again I'll go back to Gary Hall - do you try to hit a homerun with each armstroke in the water, no you try to turn the arms over and over. Striving for perfection is just plain stupid - it is not efficient to spend all your time trying to be perfect in the pool. If it comes down to practicing/learning flip turns or swimming fast which one do you think is more important??? We are all time constrained and we have to make difficult allocation decisions everyday.

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Does anyone else sneeze all day after doing flipturns in swim practice? I do better in (Bromine?) ,but chlorine just tears me up. Is there a good otc to take for this?

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Ask my masters swim coach and she will tell you that this has been my explanation from the very start...I am not a "swimmer" and I don't want people to think that I am a swimmer...if they thought I was a "swimmer" then they would say stuff like "why the hell is that guy so slow"

The days of no flip turns for me are numbered though...to keep up with the group I am going to have to add them but I really don't want to

I believe it was gary hall himself that says his son does not do flip turns unless at race pace...

You are arguing that real swimmers don't do flip turns? That's very funny. Even if Hall didn't do flip turns, he was a drop dead sprinter whose best event was the 50.

Monday
WU
20 x 50 on full rest - focus on flip turn and streamline off wall, nothing else
Continue your regular workout.
CD

Tuesday
WU
50 x 50 on full rest - focus on flip turn and streamline off wall, nothing else
Continue your regular workout

Wednesday
WU
10 x 100 - focus on flip turns and streamlines off wall, nothing else
Continue your regular workout

Done. It really IS that easy and you won't look back.

The sad thing is that the OP had a legitimate question, one that many beginning triathletes seem to have.

In an open manner, he reached out to a community of triathletes for knowledge and understanding.....instead, he received scorn.

If you guys want a forum where the same questions don't get asked over & over, I suggest a closed forum where new members can't join. Otherwise, accept the fact that this is a 'community", with new people coming in all the time. God forbid someone be accepting of that vs. ridiculing newbies.

There is a lot of great knowledge on this board, and I have learned quite a bit since joining. I still remain flabbergasted by the attitude of some of the long-time members. And they say roadies have attitude? Ain't nuthin' compared to what I see here some days.

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better for me..easier to swim through my ghost stream that follows behind me when I get to the wall.

I've always operated under the assumption that the longer my face was in the water(e.g. flip turn vs. grab and turn) the better off I'm going to be when I hit the open water and don't have the option of grabbing a wall.

I also try and hold on to the streamline I create during a flipturn as long as I can while continuing that lap. It's a constant reminder of how I want to(and should) feel in the water.

Thank you for bringing this up. I have tried to resist responding to some of the more rude and unhelpful comments. Those comments accomplish nothing positive.

1. I swam with my buddy Tom Swift, a South Jersey LEGEND. He asked what my yardage was like and I replied with "5-6 grand per day, 3-4 days per week!" He said, "Your 30 years old, cut the crap and swim your main set only and swim it correctly." So we swam 2000 correctly and properly. After swimming with him I realized that when you swim correctly, you could cut the crap (the crap is the yardage!)

2. What does this have to do with flip turns? If you are going to swim in the pool, swim like a swimmer in the pool. There is a correct way of doing it, so cut the crap, flip turn, and push yourself for the time that you have given yourself. Your body doesn't know a time or a flip; what it does know is… "Does this hurt?"

3. When you are in open water, swim like you are in open water! Go train with "respectable" lifeguards and in some cases people who train to race open water. Swim in the open water like an open water swimmer. I have rarely seen a triathlete who knew how to train in the ocean or open water.

4. Cycle like a cyclist.

5. Run Like a runner.

6. TRANSITION like a triathlete.

7. Shop like an American so you can buy cool stuff to look good! (And possibly go faster)

So, your question was should you flip? You want to swim with best? ...There is you answer.

If you guys want a forum where the same questions don't get asked over & over, I suggest a closed forum where new members can't join.

True. The problem is these flip turns discussions ALWAYS go the same way with a couple of people who can't do flip turns, saying it is better to not do them. The benefit of flip turns for most good triathletes is not subjective, like which shoe is better, it's more like asking which direction should I turn the cranks on the bike.

Fair enough....but then the issue lies with those "couple of people", not the newbies asking an honest question. They don't deserve the scorn, they are just trying to improve and understand.

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Chicago Cubs - 2016 WORLD SERIES Champions!!!!

"If ever the time should come, when vain and aspiring men shall possess the highest seats in government, our country will stand in need of its experienced patriots to prevent its ruin." - Samuel Adams

It isn't a question of foregoing swim training for practicing flip turns- take the :15, :20, or however long it takes and just learn it and you're done. You can't really believe that in Jan/Feb/March there isn't a little extra time to spend on acquiring a new skill.

And learning a skill sport is, to a large extent, about trying to be perfect. Think about it- when your stroke starts to deteriorate, what are you then ingraining into your muscle memory? The theory of "deep practice" where literally every second is spent trying to achieve the exact form you strive for is much more productive than junk miles done just to put the time in. If time is limited, it's better to swim every lap with the best form, rather than rush through it haphazardly and ingrain poor skills.

 
Not to go off topic, but can you throw us a few bones on number 3? What are we likely to me missing?