I am giving you the chance of thinking about starting this thread really hard.

Do you really want to?

You can delete your post, I can delete my post, and this never happened, the thread never existed...

---

-

The Triathlon Squad

Like us on Facebook!!!

I see where you're coming from. Personally, I don't do flip turns because when I try them I inhale the pool into my lungs and that isn't conducive to maintaining good swim technique. :)

so poster number 1 should delete his message and just do a search button before getting fried.

paulo will delete his out of generosity.

and the guy inhaling the pool should delete his for other (obvious) reasons. ;)

I only do flip turns so that I can swim with people (Masters) faster than me. I do this so that I can get faster.

If I wasn't interested in swimming faster, then I would swim alone with a big bag of toys and wouldn't worry about doing flip turns. I would wear a music device and would also chat with other triathletes as much as possible while in the pool. And I would never worry about what other strokes can teach me about mass moving through water more efficiently. I would just swim alone and do free all the time and expect to get faster by doing that one thing over and over and over.

---

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
"That night I had a dream. I dreamt I was as light as the ether."

Sounds good. Carry on.

We can still walk away from this like nothing happened!!!

---

-

The Triathlon Squad

Like us on Facebook!!!

When you do an open turn don't you get a really big breath of air? You don't do that when you're swimming open water either. And in either case you're still pushing off the wall, so does it really make a difference?

Beyond that, this is one of those instances where you're worrying about a detail that MIGHT account for something like .0001% of your performance.

Just flip slightly early so that your toes just graze the wall and you can't actually push off the wall.

You should also swim with your eyes closed so you don't get the benefit of the line on the bottom of the pool or the lane lines. You should only open your eyes when you sight.

Following these two key guidelines will not only make you a better swimmer, it will also make you extremely popular with the people in your lane line.

---

___________________
Twitter | Kancman | Blog

I am giving you the chance of thinking about starting this thread really hard.

Do you really want to?

You can delete your post, I can delete my post, and this never happened, the thread never existed...



All that's old is new again.

Bernie

---

______________
"Slowbern has always made astute observations."-Casey 03/10/2009
2013-2014 Detroit Lions---13-3 until proved otherwise.

You have some good points. Thank you.

Let me be more specific about my concern: If I swim in a 25 yard pool and I do flip turns at both ends, I might cut out 10 to 15 yards of swimming. If I don't do a flip turn, I cut probably 4 yards of swimming at most.

You could also dolphin the entire way back across the pool after your turn...but you don't.
It's not as if you lack control over when you surface and return to the stroke.

if you swim for an hour, which method gets you more time swimming at pace?

---

---

Kat Hunter reports on the San Dimas Stage Race from inside the GC winning team
Aeroweenie.com -Compendium of Aero Data and Knowledge
Freelance sports & outdoors writer Kathryn Hunter

You didn't heed my advice, so fine... I'll start it.

You're not a real swimmer until you flip-turn. How do you spot the triathlete in the pool? He/she wears a wrist watch, always has a water bottle on deck and does open turns.

---

-

The Triathlon Squad

Like us on Facebook!!!

Well then yay for me since I don't have any need to be considered "a real swimmer."

Fook...I'm just trying not to drown. I really don't give a cr@p what others think.

;^)

---

Chicago Cubs - 2016 WORLD SERIES Champions!!!!

"If ever the time should come, when vain and aspiring men shall possess the highest seats in government, our country will stand in need of its experienced patriots to prevent its ruin." - Samuel Adams

you forgot about the jammers and how they jump into the pool with a pull buoy already in place.

Great question. To be honest, I don't know. If I don't do flip turns, I have to accelerate and de-accelerate more. If I do flip turns, I spend less time swimming.

Don't forget that AT LEAST 95% of swimming is done with paddles.

Who cares if you are a real swimmer or not. When is the last time a real swimmer won the Ironman again? It is a triathlon, you know swim, bike, run - It is the person that is best at those 3 disciplines that wins. We are not swimmers, we are not bikers, we are not runners... we are triathletes.

---

Visit The Chipotle Calorie Calculator

Last June, when Andy Potts won IMCDA. Next question!

---

-

The Triathlon Squad

Like us on Facebook!!!

The real Ironman....

---

Visit The Chipotle Calorie Calculator

Okay it may be late and I may have had too many orange sodas but I feel like I'm taking freaking crazy pills here.

Really? Really? We're going to have a serious debate on whether it's better to do flipturns? Do it, don't do it..it doesn't matter! Just swim hard and swim often.

Triathletes, by and large, do a lot of really dumb things when it comes to swimming. And, by and large, they try to rationalize it by saying something like "Haha, it's a good thing I'm a triathlete otherwise these dumbass things I'm doing would be really stupid." It's ridiculous. The vast majority of triathletes would be better swimmers if they would cut out the tri-toys, the get-fast-quick schemes and all of the other gimmicks.

So swim an extra 100 yards and you've covered it. I assume your issue is pushing off the wall, not really flip turns, since you talk about time.

Seriously. You're right, you don't have walls in triathlons. Nor do you (I hope) stop every 25 yards, turn and start from a dead stop. The best way to practice OWS is to OWS. Most people can't do that, so we use the pool. So you're left with two options. Come to a complete stop, turn, and start from a dead stop, with your legs lower in the water, having to come up to speed to maintain proper form. Orrrrrrrrrrr, flip (or open, whatever), give a nice little push so your legs are higher in the water, as if you hadn't stopped swimming.

Your choice. When the pro triathletes stop doing flip turns, I'll consider it (I've been in a pool with Macca and Wingnut, both of whom flip turn (and kicked my ass)

"When is the last time a real swimmer won the Ironman again?"

I'd wager that it's been a while since someone who doesn't do flipturns won "the Ironman".

Actually, last November in Cozumel :)

Uh oh...

---

-

The Triathlon Squad

Like us on Facebook!!!

I love Slowtwitch.

---

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
"That night I had a dream. I dreamt I was as light as the ether."

I think to be a "true" triathlete, you have to attempt to master each discipline. I think that takes at some point in your life, competing in each discipline individually, isolated from the others. Otherwise, you'll always be a runner that can bike and swim, or a cyclist that can swim and run, or a swimmer than can run and bike.

Just as part of cycling is climbing, sprinting and riding bicycles without aerobars. Part of swimming is flip turns, and those other 3 goofy strokes.

---

TrainingBible Coaching
http://www.trainingbible.com

No it doesn't make sense. Flip turns force you to work on breath control. As for covering more distance off the wall I would do that anyways as my best stroke in the 'day' was fly.

---

___________________________________________
http://en.wikipedia.org/...eoesophageal_fistula
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cerebral_palsy
2020 National Masters Champion - M40-44 - 400m IM
Canadian Record Holder 35-39M & 40-44M - 200 m Butterfly (LCM)

OW swim specialists still train in pools too and they still do flip turns. You know the guys who swim 10k OW in 1:50 or so.

Perfect is the enemy of great - we only need to be great at all 3 disciplines.

---

Visit The Chipotle Calorie Calculator

You have it backwards. Perfect isn't the enemy of great. Pursuing perfection is what makes you great. When you try for anything less than perfection your results will always be subpar because you're leaving things on the table before you even get started. I was a competitive swimmer for ten years, despite not being particularly talented. I managed to become a relatively decent division 3 swimmer. I know how much work it takes to become a great - by triathlon standards - swimmer.

The point I and others have been making is that people try to rationalize their shortcomings in swimming by saying what you're saying now..."It's triathlon, it's okay if my swim isn't perfect." Well, yeah, it's not perfect. It's okay if you're not perfect. But people aren't trying to be perfect. They're trying to be good enough through the use of toys, equipment, whatever. And when you're trying to be just good enough to get by, you wind up being bad. (No disrespect to the OP. I don't think it matters whether you do flipturns, but I don't know your training pattern so I don't want to assume anything.)

Finally, I get that as triathletes we have constraints on the amount of time we can spend in the pool. I'm not advocating spending 20 hours a week in the pool like I did back in the day. I'm talking about striving for perfection with the time that we do have in the pool. Too many triathletes want to minimize the effort they put into their swim EVEN WHEN they're in the pool.

"Perfect is the enemy of great - we only need to be great at all 3 disciplines."

I'd wager that you'd have a tough time finding a great swimmer who didn't do flip turns.

The problem with flip turns is that if you can do a good flip turn, you can cover a lot of distance where you are not swimming.

Whenever there's a flip-turn debate some ignoramus has to bring this up.

Well guess what? The push off, streamlining, the breakout, kick, back, fly, IM, etc etc etc...you know, all the things the under-achieving triathlon "swimmer" refuses to master...it's all swimming.

---

---

blood, sweat...and big gears

I hated every minute of training, but I said, ''Don't quit. Suffer now and live the rest of your life as a champion.''
- Muhammad Ali

I believe it was gary hall himself that says his son does not do flip turns unless at race pace...

---

Visit The Chipotle Calorie Calculator

Again I'll go back to Gary Hall - do you try to hit a homerun with each armstroke in the water, no you try to turn the arms over and over. Striving for perfection is just plain stupid - it is not efficient to spend all your time trying to be perfect in the pool. If it comes down to practicing/learning flip turns or swimming fast which one do you think is more important??? We are all time constrained and we have to make difficult allocation decisions everyday.

---

Visit The Chipotle Calorie Calculator

Does anyone else sneeze all day after doing flipturns in swim practice? I do better in (Bromine?) ,but chlorine just tears me up. Is there a good otc to take for this?

---

__________________________________________________
Official Polar Ambassador
http://www.google.com/...P7RiWyEVwpunlsc2JtQQ

Ask my masters swim coach and she will tell you that this has been my explanation from the very start...I am not a "swimmer" and I don't want people to think that I am a swimmer...if they thought I was a "swimmer" then they would say stuff like "why the hell is that guy so slow"

The days of no flip turns for me are numbered though...to keep up with the group I am going to have to add them but I really don't want to

I believe it was gary hall himself that says his son does not do flip turns unless at race pace...

You are arguing that real swimmers don't do flip turns? That's very funny. Even if Hall didn't do flip turns, he was a drop dead sprinter whose best event was the 50.

Monday
WU
20 x 50 on full rest - focus on flip turn and streamline off wall, nothing else
Continue your regular workout.
CD

Tuesday
WU
50 x 50 on full rest - focus on flip turn and streamline off wall, nothing else
Continue your regular workout

Wednesday
WU
10 x 100 - focus on flip turns and streamlines off wall, nothing else
Continue your regular workout

Done. It really IS that easy and you won't look back.

The sad thing is that the OP had a legitimate question, one that many beginning triathletes seem to have.

In an open manner, he reached out to a community of triathletes for knowledge and understanding.....instead, he received scorn.

If you guys want a forum where the same questions don't get asked over & over, I suggest a closed forum where new members can't join. Otherwise, accept the fact that this is a 'community", with new people coming in all the time. God forbid someone be accepting of that vs. ridiculing newbies.

There is a lot of great knowledge on this board, and I have learned quite a bit since joining. I still remain flabbergasted by the attitude of some of the long-time members. And they say roadies have attitude? Ain't nuthin' compared to what I see here some days.

---

Chicago Cubs - 2016 WORLD SERIES Champions!!!!

"If ever the time should come, when vain and aspiring men shall possess the highest seats in government, our country will stand in need of its experienced patriots to prevent its ruin." - Samuel Adams

better for me..easier to swim through my ghost stream that follows behind me when I get to the wall.

I've always operated under the assumption that the longer my face was in the water(e.g. flip turn vs. grab and turn) the better off I'm going to be when I hit the open water and don't have the option of grabbing a wall.

I also try and hold on to the streamline I create during a flipturn as long as I can while continuing that lap. It's a constant reminder of how I want to(and should) feel in the water.

Thank you for bringing this up. I have tried to resist responding to some of the more rude and unhelpful comments. Those comments accomplish nothing positive.

1. I swam with my buddy Tom Swift, a South Jersey LEGEND. He asked what my yardage was like and I replied with "5-6 grand per day, 3-4 days per week!" He said, "Your 30 years old, cut the crap and swim your main set only and swim it correctly." So we swam 2000 correctly and properly. After swimming with him I realized that when you swim correctly, you could cut the crap (the crap is the yardage!)

2. What does this have to do with flip turns? If you are going to swim in the pool, swim like a swimmer in the pool. There is a correct way of doing it, so cut the crap, flip turn, and push yourself for the time that you have given yourself. Your body doesn't know a time or a flip; what it does know is… "Does this hurt?"

3. When you are in open water, swim like you are in open water! Go train with "respectable" lifeguards and in some cases people who train to race open water. Swim in the open water like an open water swimmer. I have rarely seen a triathlete who knew how to train in the ocean or open water.

4. Cycle like a cyclist.

5. Run Like a runner.

6. TRANSITION like a triathlete.

7. Shop like an American so you can buy cool stuff to look good! (And possibly go faster)

So, your question was should you flip? You want to swim with best? ...There is you answer.

If you guys want a forum where the same questions don't get asked over & over, I suggest a closed forum where new members can't join.

True. The problem is these flip turns discussions ALWAYS go the same way with a couple of people who can't do flip turns, saying it is better to not do them. The benefit of flip turns for most good triathletes is not subjective, like which shoe is better, it's more like asking which direction should I turn the cranks on the bike.

Fair enough....but then the issue lies with those "couple of people", not the newbies asking an honest question. They don't deserve the scorn, they are just trying to improve and understand.

---

Chicago Cubs - 2016 WORLD SERIES Champions!!!!

"If ever the time should come, when vain and aspiring men shall possess the highest seats in government, our country will stand in need of its experienced patriots to prevent its ruin." - Samuel Adams

It isn't a question of foregoing swim training for practicing flip turns- take the :15, :20, or however long it takes and just learn it and you're done. You can't really believe that in Jan/Feb/March there isn't a little extra time to spend on acquiring a new skill.

And learning a skill sport is, to a large extent, about trying to be perfect. Think about it- when your stroke starts to deteriorate, what are you then ingraining into your muscle memory? The theory of "deep practice" where literally every second is spent trying to achieve the exact form you strive for is much more productive than junk miles done just to put the time in. If time is limited, it's better to swim every lap with the best form, rather than rush through it haphazardly and ingrain poor skills.

 
Not to go off topic, but can you throw us a few bones on number 3? What are we likely to me missing?

Run that past us again? Last I checked, people who do flip turns have to decelerate ("de-accelerate" isn't a word) into the wall and accelerate off the wall, just like those who do open turns.

---

----------------------------------
"Go yell at an M&M"

ok...to be kind I will say this (I'm not an olympic level swimmer, but I'm half way decent...i still have half way to go)

I used to be of the same mindset as a lot of triathlete's regarding flip turns. Then I started doing flip turns and realized that a) I was getting a break at the walls on open turns even though i didn't think i was b) suddenly swimming longer sets (anything over 100 yards straight) seemed harder with flip turns. It dawned on me at that point that I wasn't working as hard as I thought I was in the pool.

What I have noticed is, the better I got at flip turns, the stronger I have become at swimming in general. Flip turns eventually become second nature. The big thing to me is, even though I'm making up time by having faster turns, I'm also working harder (more continuous) by not doing open turns. Also, I noticed that one of my shoulders was bugging me from grabbing the wall at every turn.

A couple of guys at my masters swim workout have made comments like..."I can keep up with you...it's just that your turns are so much faster than mine". My reply is something along the lines of "dude...you're keeping up with me for a whopping 25 yards...and if you really think it's just my turns that are faster then I have a bridge to sell you". They cannot keep up with me in open water either...which blows their theory out of the water (and again, i don't consider myself to be an elite level swimmer by any stretch of the imagination).

If you do a 500, 1000, 1500 continuous using open turns vs flip turns...which one feels harder? Which way are you faster? If you are faster by doing open turns, that should tell you something (i.e. you're getting a break at the walls).

The one area I differ with some is in using toys. I personally feel that using fins is a great tool...especially for learning flip turns. I use fins and paddles quite often...but not much pull buoy. If you want to do longer pull sets, you're better off using fins as opposed to a PB (IMO). With fins you're not able to cheat as much with your body position (and you're legs still have to work). That's my theory...and I'm not saying it's the right theory.

As many have pointed out, you will not find many pro triathlete's who cannot swim pretty damn well. I'm willing to bet they all do flip turns. My advice to you and anybody else doing open turns is to suck it up and start doing flip turns. If you make up your mind to always do them, in a few months it will feel normal and you'll be thankful you did it.

And to the guy pointing out Gary Hall jr...wasn't the quote "why would i do flip turns at less than 100%"? It sounded more like he was not doing flip turns in a warmup...not that he doesn't do them. Maybe I'm wrong, but I can't imagine he does open turns in practice all the time. I'm sure Gary Hall Sr. could let us know.

This is one of the more stupid things I've read on slowtwitch about swimming, and that is saying a lot. The reason swim practice is called swim practice is that you should be working to perfect your technique every single stroke. It is the opposite of efficient to do otherwise. Clueless you are.

It's attitudes like this that keep 95% of triathletes slower than most 9 year old girls on the local Y swim team.

---

----------------------------------
"Go yell at an M&M"

No it's people being too lazy or not knowing how to use the damn search function. I've been here since, god, close to day 1, and I can't tell you how many times this *exact* debate has been on ST. Maybe we need to make the "SEARCH" section of the forum bigger/bolder/more obvious...

To the OP: If you want to be good at all 3 disciplines you need to train each discipline individually. I guarantee if you actually put the relatively minor effort into learning how to do a half-decent flip-turn, your swimming will improve, period. You don't want to, fine. I have no problem being in front of you in T1. ;-)

AP

---

------------------------
"How bad could it be?" - SimpleS

I think my quote sums up most of the quality replies. Start "flipping out" kiddies!!!

So true. Instead of banging out a really sh*tty looking 1000m, doing 10x100m with perfect form (and that means enough rest between each 100m to keep that form) will yield far better results. 4 weeks of that type of swimming will give a much better 1000m steady result in the end. Analogous to the "LSD" runs or rides, which often teach people to just run or ride long and very slow...

Swimming is SO technique focused. You need to aim for a perfect entry, catch, pull and recovery with *every* stroke. That is the perfection swimmers should be striving for.

AP

---

------------------------
"How bad could it be?" - SimpleS

I think both of those points are extremely helpful. I do flip early so I don't glide 3/4 of the pool- but I never thought to try swimming while ONLY sighting. Im going to try that. Screw the other folks in my lane, they can kiss my M-dot tatted calf! haha

Always do flip turns. If you are training seriously, you owe it to yourself. Also, people will laugh at you if you don't!

The sad thing is that the OP had a legitimate question, one that many beginning triathletes seem to have.

In an open manner, he reached out to a community of triathletes for knowledge and understanding.....instead, he received scorn.

If you guys want a forum where the same questions don't get asked over & over, I suggest a closed forum where new members can't join. Otherwise, accept the fact that this is a 'community", with new people coming in all the time. God forbid someone be accepting of that vs. ridiculing newbies.

There is a lot of great knowledge on this board, and I have learned quite a bit since joining. I still remain flabbergasted by the attitude of some of the long-time members. And they say roadies have attitude? Ain't nuthin' compared to what I see here some days.

Cry me a f'ing river. It isn't scorn...it's telling it how it is. We're all adults here mate.

The only sad thing about this thread is that the OP mistakenly thought that by doing flip turns somehow he/she was doing less swimming. It was repeated by the OP 2 or 3 times in different posts.

In fact it's the opposite...by doing flip turns you are continuously swimming, as opposed to coming to a complete stop at every wall.

Becoming a good triathlon swimmer shouldn't entail just banging out lap after lap after lap of front crawl. Triathletes of all people should be embracing techniques that help develop their body's feel for reducing drag and increasing propulsion...including flip turns.

That was the point of my post to which you replied.

---

---

blood, sweat...and big gears

I hated every minute of training, but I said, ''Don't quit. Suffer now and live the rest of your life as a champion.''
- Muhammad Ali

Understand how to work with conditions that are not simply still water- how do you read and correct for it when there's a huge current on the outbound leg of a race? Shortening your strokes in choppy conditions or when you're swimming against a current in order to maintain more constant forward momentum; gliding more on the front end when you're swimming with a current because the water pushing you forward lets you get a little more rest; figuring out the optimal point at which to stop swimming and start walking out of the water. (usual rule of thumb is when your hands start hitting sand) Learning how to not panic when it seems like you're swimming through an Amazin swamp.

Exactly what I was trying to say. Thank you.

I think you and show pony have just proved my point. Thanks.

My $.02 - one of the benefits of boards like this is the interaction between members and learning new things. Hell, there is a little thing called Google which beats the cr@p out of the Search function on this board any day. The reality is the people new to the sport have lots of questions, and one of the best ways to get those questions answered is to interact with people who have more experience / knowledge.

Sorry it is such a hassle for you to deal with repeat topics. But if they are such a bother to you, wouldn't it just be easier to ignore them? Huh....

KAlber, thanks for the post. I have a much better understanding now of the benefits of flip turns. I have to admit that I had similar questions to the one that started this thread. Your point re: longer sets suddenly seeming harder makes perfect sense. While I don't really for see flip turns in my immediate future (WAY too many other things to work on right now!!), I will definitely make an attempt to begin to work on them in the coming base period.

---

Chicago Cubs - 2016 WORLD SERIES Champions!!!!

"If ever the time should come, when vain and aspiring men shall possess the highest seats in government, our country will stand in need of its experienced patriots to prevent its ruin." - Samuel Adams

Well, you could come to a stop at each wall, turn 180 without touching the wall or the bottom of the pool and start up again without any pushoff. You wouldn't have to worry about the distance you're pushing off. Pretty sure that's going to be the most difficult way to swim any distance.

I understand where the OP is coming from. In a 25m pool you spend twice as much time pushing off as in a 50m pool. Would a 1000m swim be more difficult in a 25m pool or a 50m pool?

Wait, I thought we weren't swimming this winter.

---

I'm beginning to think that we are much more fucked than I thought.

I did a search before I started this thread. I typed, "flip turns" in the search box. I got 147 pages of threads. I did another search using the advanced options. I searched for "flip turns" and selected the option of subject only. I got 51 pages of threads. Given that each page has about 20 threads, that is a lot to go through. Could you please help me learn how to do better searches?

Maybe you could help me to understand something else. Why do you think it is that no one has posted a link to previous threads on this subject?

"The push off, streamlining, the breakout, kick, back, fly, IM, etc etc etc...you know, all the things the under-achieving triathlon "swimmer" refuses to master...it's all swimming."

That's a very good point. I didn't think about that. Thank you.

It's the Paulo Sousa method: we're not going to hold your hand and wipe your nose for you. The truth is out there.

---

----------------------------------
"Go yell at an M&M"

If you really want to focus on pure swimming you should hit a 50 metre pool when OW is not available. This debate is laughable at best.

---

___________________________________________
http://en.wikipedia.org/...eoesophageal_fistula
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cerebral_palsy
2020 National Masters Champion - M40-44 - 400m IM
Canadian Record Holder 35-39M & 40-44M - 200 m Butterfly (LCM)

I would love to have easy access to a 50m pool...25y gets annoying.

Just what I need, another thread about me.

---

-

The Triathlon Squad

Like us on Facebook!!!

You should build one. Out doors, heated, open year round and located somewhere between your house and mine ;-)

As for the search function debate. People should read the forum for about the first three months without ever posting anything. After that they should only reply to posts when they actually know something about the topic/have something to add not learned from "a fast dude they know" for a couple of months. After that period they should be aware enough about what goes on that they can ask how to make flat coke and not be offended by the responses they get.

Just an idea...building from both of you, maybe making a section showing the top 20 searches for the day/week/month would be helpful.

edit: to the OP...do the flip turns cuz all the cool kids are doing them.

jaretj

So it seems the price of quickly gaining free advice from experienced triathletes is some gentle needling. The OP wasn't insulted and received all the answers plus a little humour along the way. Seems fair.

You make a good point re: how "good" the search function is... might be worth some thought/feedback to Jordan... but that's for another afternoon ;-)

Re: no other links, also a good point. A variety fer ya:
1: http://forum.slowtwitch.com/...um.cgi?post=3104226;
2: http://forum.slowtwitch.com/...um.cgi?post=2749157;
3: http://forum.slowtwitch.com/...um.cgi?post=2737894;
4: http://forum.slowtwitch.com/...um.cgi?post=2677539;
5: http://forum.slowtwitch.com/...um.cgi?post=2203937;
6: http://forum.slowtwitch.com/...um.cgi?post=2182419;
7: http://forum.slowtwitch.com/...um.cgi?post=2158454;
8: http://forum.slowtwitch.com/...um.cgi?post=2095418;
9: http://forum.slowtwitch.com/...um.cgi?post=2082288;
10: http://forum.slowtwitch.com/...um.cgi?post=2007226;

Lots of different opinions and perspectives in there.

AP

---

------------------------
"How bad could it be?" - SimpleS

@PS...That's funny!

---

Sharting Happens...deal with it!

http://caughtontherun.blogspot.com/

Or: a way to "link" threads together w/o having to post... metainformation idea...

AP

---

------------------------
"How bad could it be?" - SimpleS

I admit it, I get my a$$ kicked by the 9 yr old girls. I swim at a YMCA and the Y Team practices at the same time I swim in the morning (around 6am). They are in the 5 lanes next to me. I admit, I will glance to see one of them passing me. And I'm doing free and they are doing back.

To the OP, my search results are from the same threads, so it looks like a lot of hits (posts) when it's usually just a few actual threads.

"Properly" executed flip-turns will not hurt your swim training. It is the most effecient way of maintaining momentum, which is the same as OW. I prefer not to take a long streamline off my turn and start the stroke as soon as my arm breaches the surface. It also forces you to control your breathing a bit more as you don't get that split second of wall grab and large gulp of air.

I still get passed by the kiddies on the swim team either way. Humiliating.

Do the flip turns. When you are in the pool, you are trying to be the best swimmer you can. That's the way to attack triathlon, be the best you can at each sport. Just do it because the swimmers do it.
Question: Is Grant Hackett worse at open water swimming than he would be if he only did open turns in the pool?

When you swim, you swim hard, you swim fast. If you could have gone harder, further, faster you would have. Doesn't matter what speed you are swimming at. If flip turns 'cheated' you in to doing your 100s on a 5 second faster interval, then maybe you got an extra 200-300 yards in your workout overall. Now which is better?

I don't make it an issue either way. I do a lot of open turns. I pretty much save the flipturns for short races in the pool. But that's laziness.

I go with the breast stroke turn just to keep it interesting.

swim individual medleys and then one can get both types of turns.

When working with my swim coached some people asked him this question.

He said in OW you have a continuous movement of going forward, flip turns are the best way to make your swimming in a pool continuous.

Also not that it happens a lot but pushing off the wall with your arms could lead to shoulder problems over time.

I kind of fear for the non-fishy triathletes if we try to make them do an old school back to breast spin turn. Or maybe I'm fearing for the lifeguards in that case. Always thought those turns were far, far harder than flip turns were.

Thank you. Your search skills are better than my search skills.

You have some good points.

Unfortunately, I'm kind of thin skinned. I'm working on that. I was a bit offended by some of the negativity. Having been on this forum a while, I know it is part of the culture. But it does not seem to accomplish anything positive.

I can understand that some people might think my questions and ideas are simple and stupid. But to me they aren't. And some people might think the answers are very obvious. Again, to me, they aren't.

I have gotten some good information from this thread. I have learned some things. I clearly understand the advantages of doing flip turns. But, again, why can't people just address the questions/concerns instead of being so critical and negative? If they don't like it, they don't need to respond.

PEOPLE BELIEVE IT'S THEIR RIGHT TO BE @SS HOLES...WHEN THEIR RIGHT IS ACTUALLY TO TURN THEIR HEAD AND IGNORE WHAT EVER IS MAKING THEM UNHAPPY!

Anyways...Start flipping!

I don't think that this is right...I am not any good at flip turns but my understanding is that the top swimmers are actually able to get, for the lack of a better term, a slingshot effect off the wall due to carrying the momentum with them into the wall. When I swim next to the good swimmers in my group they accelerate into the wall...not the opposite

I do flip turns to eliminate that extra air I get on the wall when doing the open turn. I figure I don't get that air when in open water. I know I can do the turn without taking the extra breath but i like to stay in a groove. Just my crazy head I guess.

---

http://www.tritoblog.blogspot.com

I kind of fear for the non-fishy triathletes if we try to make them do an old school back to breast spin turn. Or maybe I'm fearing for the lifeguards in that case. Always thought those turns were far, far harder than flip turns were.

My kid is just started using the bucket turn in the IM. He is not a backstroker by any stretch, but he has endurance and a really good fly and breast. His coach has been swimming him in the IM this year and he is about 3 seconds from a state cut in the 200. He's got a good chance at it during the taper. His problem was that his transition from back to breaststroke was really broken and choppy. The coach taught him the bucket and it seems to have made a huge difference (well, it looks better anyhow). I couldn't do it though!

Bernie

---

______________
"Slowbern has always made astute observations."-Casey 03/10/2009
2013-2014 Detroit Lions---13-3 until proved otherwise.

That is me! Starting to do flip turns however. Not paying attention to the damn clock for now, just worried about not clocking the top of the deck with my feet.
After 7 years of swimming without flip turns I realized that it is like being lazy and only doing base work in the off season. If you want to get fast you have to go fast and flip turns help to get fast. Period.

---

Looking like a color blind super hero!
Damn triathlon.

Your are correct in what you believe is happening, just not describing it correctly. I'll take a shot:

If you do a "touch and go" instead of a flip you are stopping all of your forward motion, then restarting it from zero in the other direction.

It is the same for a flip but in a flip, if done correctly, your forward motion is used to reverse your body. As you push your arms down and tuck your head the drag on your upper body will slow it, while your legs and butt continue forward and over your head. That is what causes the "flip"part of the turn. If you are really good at a flip turn and are sprinting you will actually be on your back, legs toward the wall, and still be moving slightly toward the wall. In HS I clearly remember my legs continuing to compress against the wall after I was on my back and before I snapped the my legs straight. Now not so much. Snapping your legs straight stops the motion and starts you going the other direction. All the energy conversions still happen, just at different times and at different speeds. You don't slow less, you slow quicker and more efficiently and change your body position at the same time, which is the 'slingshot effect" that you are trying to describe. A flip guy is "on the wall" a lot less time than the touch and go guy.

When I was much younger I would flip and stay on my back for a lot longer than I do now. These days, if I don't start rolling the moment my feet touch, or even slightly before, my sinuses start filling with water and I drip all day (or night).

---

"...the street finds its own uses for things"

And, if you do good open turns, you can do the same. I guess you're not going to push off at all?

---

Steve

"If you ain't first, you're last." Reese Bobby Talladega Nights

Think it's bad here on ST? Think there's a ton of assholes like Paulo lurking and waiting to seize a stupid post? Head over to TGR (Teton Gravity Research) and ask a seemingly "intelligent" question about skiing or boarding. You'll soon realize that ST is a loving and caring virtual family.

hahahahaha

qft

---

-------
http://www.y-rocket.blogspot.com/

I'm just glad the classic back stroke turn is no longer needed.

While the possibility exists that by asking a question, asked many times before, you will get a new answer, it probably is wise to check old threads first. Having said that you now have to answer the question of whether you are a swimmer who does Traithlons or a Triathlete who practices swimming.

If you are going into the pool with "swimmers' then there are certain skills you need. A flip turn will keep you in the lane for which your swim speed qualifies you. It will allow you to swim with other swimmers who will push you. You can swim open turns with a swim club, but will will cause a yo yo affect on the lane. I know because I swam that way for many years. My excuse, they didn't do flip turns when I swum competitively, but that was 50 years ago. Are you that old.

However as a triathlete, you have no need for a flip turn, and it scares the crap out of people if you do one at a buoy, in a race. In pool training there are plenty of things you can do to increase speed that have nothing to do with flip turns, as long as you are not swimming in a group, you are free to do what works for you.

As for all the nasty remarks about the toys, well come on people this is triathlon, it's the toys that make it great.

I get to have a special suit and a wetsuit, flash goggles, colourfull cap and training stuff galore, then I get on my toy bike, with it's race day wheels, windsuit, aero helmet, aero water bottle, special foods and drink, computer, "power" this that and the other, then lord help me I have to run, no toys (well special race day shoes, compression socks, cap, salt tablets, energy drinks and gels).

So lets stop taking the piss out of some poor bloke who can't do flip turns.

Don't be so serious people.

In defense of folks like Paulo (oh god, defending Paulo???? but who actually had good walk away advice....), OP didn't say I can't do them, or I just don't like to do them, or for him, they aren't important. I think everyone is cool with that. Train like you want. Whatever. May have gotten a few comments. Certainly not a four pager.

But the OP made an affirmative statement that it's better for triathletes not to do them because you don't do them in open water.

Then opened the door by asking whether it made sense or not

It doesn't, so people responded.

How important is a good splash during the flip turn? It seems like my flip turns are quiet and graceful unless someone is standing at the end of the lane. I really would like a consisten splash, any help is appreciated.

---

________________________________________________
Blog about being a dad and 140.6 racer wannabee. http://irondads.blogspot.com/

Still swimming well, or very well, is important. See Macca's interview on the main page where he sights a slow swim as the reason he was out of contention for Kona 2009.

---

-------
http://www.y-rocket.blogspot.com/

My take on a proper splash is that it comes from really slapping calf muscles on the surface of the water. Maybe it'll sting a little but it's a small price to pat for keeping a water buffalo out of your lane.

"But the OP made an affirmative statement that it's better for triathletes not to do them because you don't do them in open water.

Then opened the door by asking whether it made sense or not

It doesn't, so people responded."

Now I see part of the problem: how I worded things. I meant to ask it as a question, based on what I thought. But I didn't really ask it as a question.

isn't there a saying something like "you can't win a triathlon on the swim, but you can certainly lose one"?

I am not saying swimming is not important - I am saying the search of perfection is not a good path. In re to Macca the pro race is totally different from swimming for age groupers. Yes you have to be out with the main pack in the pro race or you better be able to pedal back up to them.

---

Visit The Chipotle Calorie Calculator

I'll say it again: "the search for perfection is not a good path" is dead wrong. It's the only path, for both pros and everyone else. Every stroke you take should be in search of perfection. If not, you might as well join EN...or stay home and drink beer.

---

----------------------------------
"Go yell at an M&M"

You do realise not everyone takes this sport/hobby as seriously as guys like you.Some people just want to have fun,get fit and be social..

.

I sneeze too- the way to prevent this is to use some nasal spray- I have some nasonex I use after swimming, seems to do the trick.

I think everyone is in agreement that the OP, when approaching the wall, should skip the flip turn and instead hop out of the pool and do CROSS FIT.

---

-------
http://www.y-rocket.blogspot.com/

i've had to resort to wearing nose plugs. if i don't i'm sneezing and blowing my nose all day and night.

Maybe your definition of perfection is different from mine but perfection is impossible to achieve. You strive to be great at many things, not perfect at one.

---

Visit The Chipotle Calorie Calculator

Are you deliberately being obtuse?

"Every stroke you take should be in search of perfection"

---

----------------------------------
"Go yell at an M&M"

Yeah, me and my 7-8 hours of training per week. Really seriously.

But when I'm doing something, it seems reasonable to do it as well as I can. And it's pretty hard to be social when your in the middle of a swim interval. I guess I should focus on blowing bubbles or something?

---

----------------------------------
"Go yell at an M&M"

What is the best way to learn flip turns?

And while on the subject of swimming skills, I KNOW butterfly is never going to help in tri, but it's a skill I just can't master, and would love to. (apart from anything else it looks so damn cool). Any suggestions? Have looked at a lot of youtube videos for flips, which have helped a lot. Any butterfly tips?

can any of these help?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YFQpLyihI5M

http://www.youtube.com/...&feature=channel

http://www.youtube.com/...&feature=channel

http://www.youtube.com/...&feature=channel

http://www.youtube.com/...&feature=channel

Try http://www.findingfreestyle.com/; search for "flip turn" and you'll find a page that describes a progression.

I'm not the one to ask about butterfly!

---

----------------------------------
"Go yell at an M&M"

You do realise not everyone takes this sport/hobby as seriously as guys like you.Some people just want to have fun,get fit and be social

Using your logic, which argues there's no point in seeking perfection in swimming b/c it's just a hobby, is ridiculous when applied to cycling and running. I guess we should all just pedal squares, ride bikes that don't fit, and overstride.

Given many posters' obsessions with which wheels, which water bottles and which energy gel to use, I find it absolutely ridiculous that training recommendations (this, the barefoot, and EN threads come to mind) are met with such indignancy - "yeah well we're not pros and this works for me, so stop trying to give me good advice"

---

___________________
Twitter | Kancman | Blog

Why are you revealing my secrets?

I had this same problem . . . I have seasonal rhinitis (sneezing with pollen, mold etc). So I tried some of my nasal spray antihistimine, and no more sneezing after the swim. The product I use is called Astepro (Rx).

Butterfly is all about the timing, and the rest will follow from there. Start out by figuring out the kick. Lots and lots of kick. (hey, it's also great for core work) And only when you feel really, really comfortable with your dolphin kick do you even think about adding arms.

At which time, keep it one arm (three left arm, three right arm is a nice ratio- arm not in use is in front of the body) Two kicks per arm cycle- the hard one is at the finish of the stroke when you're generating enough momentum to get your arms out of the water for their recovery; the easier one is just after your hands start the stroke.

The thing that will kill you is that you will want to sneak in a glide and kick right when the hands enter the water in order to get a milisecond of rest, and you really don't want to do that because it destroys momentum/rhythm.

Only move on to both arms together when you feel the rhythm like a sled full of Jamaican bobsledders (Yeah, I loved Cool Runnings) and even then work into full stroke fly gradually- start with 3 left arm, 3 right, 3 full, and then 3 left, 3 full, 3 right, 3 full before you go full stroke fly the whole time- the one arm will give you some rest and remind you of what the timing is supposed to feel like when you do get to the double arm part of the drill.

Also note that fly requires a good amount of shoulder flexibility, and if you don't have it now, it's going to be harder to make full stroke work comfortably.

Lot's of people manage to enjoy themselves cycling and running without overthinking it.You should try it sometime.

.

Time spent does not equate to how serious( or uptight) someone is when they do something and you must not have spent much time watching social triathletes at the pool because there is a whle lot of chatter going on.

Typical ST answers to a simple statement which was that not all triathletes are as serious as others.Here on ST guys like yourself and others are serious,or let me say passionate,about the sport and are into the nuts and bolts of every aspect of it whiich is great.What happens here though,is that the thousands of people "who do triathlons" just for fun are completely discounted as a group.Guess what, there are folks out there doing races on shitty bikes or mountain bikes and they don't care about changing anything,There are thousands of social triathletes and swimmers who just want to hang out and have fun without (rightly or wrongly) learning to swim properly.There are thousands of runners out there in High-Tops or other stupid shoes and cotton clothes who don't care about anthing other than they "run a bit" .They just don't care aboout that stuff.

The OP asked a question and my view is yes he should probrably do flip turns but the sky will not fall if he doesn't.

.

Jill-- Thanks for the primer on the butterfly!!

Time spent does not equate to how serious( or uptight) someone is when they do something and you must not have spent much time watching social triathletes at the pool because there is a whle lot of chatter going on.

Typical ST answers to a simple statement which was that not all triathletes are as serious as others.Here on ST guys like yourself and others are serious,or let me say passionate,about the sport and are into the nuts and bolts of every aspect of it whiich is great.What happens here though,is that the thousands of people "who do triathlons" just for fun are completely discounted as a group.Guess what, there are folks out there doing races on shitty bikes or mountain bikes and they don't care about changing anything,There are thousands of social triathletes and swimmers who just want to hang out and have fun without (rightly or wrongly) learning to swim properly.There are thousands of runners out there in High-Tops or other stupid shoes and cotton clothes who don't care about anthing other than they "run a bit" .They just don't care aboout that stuff.

The OP asked a question and my view is yes he should probrably do flip turns but the sky will not fall if he doesn't.

This is a perfect example of a completely pointless post. You pretty much said that because there are people out there who do whatever they want, no one should offer training advice to anyone else, because it's possible that person might not take the sport seriously. Most of those folks aren't on here asking for training advice. If someone asks a question about how best to train, or how to do something, people who know what they're talking about are going to offer advice to the best of their ability. The alternative, saying 'do whatever you feel like and have fun', would be pretty terrible advice. No one is saying the world is going to end if you don't follow it. No one cares how much other people suck at swimming, running, etc, but if they ask for advice, it's pretty ridiculous to dismiss the answers by saying 'yeah but uh...a lot of people don't care about triathlon and don't care about getting better.'

---

___________________
Twitter | Kancman | Blog

Take a chill pill because it is obviously clouding your comprehension.

Do you ever spend time with complete beginners who are so intimdated by the attitude of a lot of experienced triathletes that they are too afraid to ask questions for fear of being publicly ridiculed?I do and that is the kind of thing that happens here when someone like the OP askes a simple question and immediately gets shit for it from the ST gurus.

Please show me where I ever said that people should not give advice or I have ever said that people SHOULD do whatever they want and not worry about getting advice.

What I am saying is that if people want to just go about participating in our sport with a little guidance they should not be given shit for not caring if they follow every single ST approved way of doing it.


.

.

These guys don't always do flip turns and they still manage to have a fun time racing,maybe that is why I like to hang out with them.

www.youtube.com/watch?v=yyk6UJPf7vs&feature=player_embedded




.

Public ridicule builds character. That's one reason all children should play sports. :)

---

___________________
Twitter | Kancman | Blog

Flip turns are a pretty basic thing. If you cant do a flip turn you probably arent very comfortable in the water. IMO if anyone is trying to be good at tri needs to do flip turns. I cant imagine how anyone could get into any rhythm on say anything form 500+ meter sets. And if you doing 50-100 intervals you will get left behind not doing flip turns if you are iin a pool with people that can swim. Why would people not want to learn.

Do you even know who is in that video,what they are doing and why all of us that were there (including the swimmers) thought it was hilarious..No you don't,you are just making stupid assumptions again.

.

I didn't watch your video. I was replying to the post where you were talking about people being scared of public ridicule. I was making a joke. But you're still up my asshole.

---

___________________
Twitter | Kancman | Blog

I agree with everything you said but some people just don't want to learn.In a perfect world everyone would learn how to train properly but we all know that it isn't a perfect world and I'm okay with that.

.

I wonder if someone mixed some lithium in their water bottles, would they finish the "race?"

---

-

The Triathlon Squad

Like us on Facebook!!!

Why don't we just be honest about flip turns, unless you can get close enough to the turn bouy to do one and push off they are of no use out there in the OW. About the only thing they are good for is to teach you how to stay calm when someone pushes your head down a bit and you get a litlle oxygen depraved.

---

__________________________________________________
Official Polar Ambassador
http://www.google.com/...P7RiWyEVwpunlsc2JtQQ

snackchair wrote:

I didn't watch your video. I was replying to the post where you were talking about people being scared of public ridicule. I was making a joke. But you're still up my asshole.

" I just haven’t quite been myself lately. I haven’t been myself lately, but I love you. Nothing about that has changed, and nothing ever will. So right now, what I need is for you to climb down out of my ass. Can you do that? Will you do that for me, honey? Will you please, just once, get off my ass. You know, I’d appreciate it. I really would."I

---

-

The Triathlon Squad

Like us on Facebook!!!

.........................................................................................

Hahaha Paulo,they finished but it took them just under four weeks.This video was shot by the crew of one of the swimmers during the second day of the swim.

I am most impressed with 73 year old Aurthur who swam the whole 76k on his back .The guy is awesome..

.

"Flip turns are a pretty basic thing. If you cant do a flip turn you probably arent very comfortable in the water. IMO if anyone is trying to be good at tri needs to do flip turns. I cant imagine how anyone could get into any rhythm on say anything form 500+ meter sets. And if you doing 50-100 intervals you will get left behind not doing flip turns if you are iin a pool with people that can swim. Why would people not want to learn."
--------------------------------------------
Your logic makes sense.

However, what about someone like me who has an old knee injury that flares up (I don't know why) whenever I do flip turns which hurts my run and bike. So, I have trained 30 years doing open turns.....and have had some pretty fast swim times.[/quote]

---

David
* Ironman for Life! (Blog) * IM Everyday Hero Video * Daggett Shuler Law *
Disclaimer: I have personal and professional relationships with many athletes, vendors, and organizations in the triathlon world.

"Darth Vader had responsibilities. He had to build the Death Star"

That's a good one for you.

---

___________________
Twitter | Kancman | Blog

honestly, i'm very comfortable in the water. I love swimming long sessions and consider myself an ok swimmer- no problems avg 1:20/100 for my usual 3,000-4,000m swims but I just never bothered doing flip turns. Sure, I dabbled here and there and if I had to do one, I could pull it off. I've just gotten so used to not doing them that I don't think about it. I don't think I'm doing an injustice to my training by not doing them. I won't be doing them on race day and I surely don't rest at the end of each 25. I hit the wall and immediately push off underwater with no wasted time- i've gotten pretty quick at it. Not doing them doesn't hurt my rhythm in the least. Rhythm doesn't have to be accomplished my flip turns, it's simply accomplished by doing something over and over until it's natural to you.

I can't believe how many replies in this thread.

Don't people know that in the last Kona flip-turn survey, 99.28% of qualifiers did flip turns in training?
Case closed.

Dude you're about to open a can of worms. There's going to be like 47 people replying to your post - "yeah but I just do it for fun, so I do whatever I want and that makes me happy. ST is so elitist. Stop giving the truth."

---

___________________
Twitter | Kancman | Blog

Most people are f*cking lazy and thinking learning to flip-turn is some incredibly difficult skill. It's not. It takes 10min to learn. Then about a week or two to get comfortable. Then... a skill for life.

Seriously... how did these people learn to ride a bicycle?

For me, it isn't an issue of learning how to do flip turns. I know how to and I do them pretty well. I was just trying to figure out if it makes sense to do them. That's all. I got some good information.

Yeah, no worries man. Wasn't referring to you in particular.

For me, it isn't an issue of learning how to do flip turns. I know how to and I do them pretty well. I was just trying to figure out if it makes sense to do them. That's all. I got some good information.

And if in another month you post this question again, the same horsesh*t will recur via the magic of ST.

Agreed.

No I am not being deliberately obtuse - just because you use the word in "in search of" doesn't change the meaning for me. We should still strive to be great at best. We should never strive for perfection - it is generally extremely inefficient to do so. I gave a perfect example earlier from the swim guru (gary hall sr) on the forum. He mentioned in taking strokes that you should NOT try to hit a home run with every stroke - just get the arm thru the water with great form and move on to the next one.

It is the same problem software companies have when trying to make perfect software. It is not possible, at some point you have to ship the product. You have 7 hours to train you need to use your time that offers the best fitness for the hours available. I guarantee if there is someone else in your shoes that doesn't do flip turns that the hour a week practicing them could be better spent. The following could be a theme song for what I am trying to convey

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rvkUDKIuye0 (guaranteed not to be a rick roll)

---

Visit The Chipotle Calorie Calculator

I gave you a chance, right from the start, not to do it! But did you take it??? No... this time will be different, you said... this time I will have my question answered, you said... and now we're on page 6 of the bleeping thread, and there are still people posting the million bleeping reasons why they do/don't flip-turn... and why? WHY?! All because of YOU!!!

---

-

The Triathlon Squad

Like us on Facebook!!!

Man,looks like I'm gonna have to start doing Cross-fit to make my core strong enough for flip-turns.


.

Nope just p90x

---

__________________________________________________
Official Polar Ambassador
http://www.google.com/...P7RiWyEVwpunlsc2JtQQ

Or 1K of butterfly kick every practice.

Well there is always that (which I kind of like to do anyway) but I break it up a bit and it is generlly for 500m mixed in with drills or as recovery after losing my breath doing all that hypoxic flip-turning. ;-) .....and I do it with fins just 'cause I'm an adult and I can.

.

OH GIMME A BREAK...Darth Vader did NOT have to build the death star...he just had to get them back on schedule. The death star was emperor palpatine's aka (darth sidious) plan. Darth Vader was emporer palpatine's bitch until the end!!!

I'll have you know that I spent at least twenty minutes on it today (probably more), and still haven't got it. I did get a bunch of water up my nose, I'm dizzy, and I feel like I'm gonna puke.

This BETTER be building some motherf***ing character.

---

-----
Over 4.5 years bike crash free.

Naahhh, this thread has been great. I'm on my fourth bag of popcorn. I need to go grab another large soda, though.

---

Proud member of FISHTWITCH: doing a bit more than fish exercise now.

Start with a somersault without the wall. When you got that.. then try the wall.
Blow air out your nose.

http://www.ehow.com/...p-turn-swimming.html

I'm working with this set of drills, actually:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YFQpLyihI5M

My unofficial coach (a guy from masters swimming) says it's looking decent so far. Still feel like I'm gonna puke, but that might also owe a little to the freestyle sets I was doing.

---

-----
Over 4.5 years bike crash free.

I did not see anyone mention it, but I would bet there are a fair amount of swimmers, maybe not triathletes, who have bad enough backs that they should not be doing flip turns. I know I have been told by doctors to do no forward bending and no flip turns. To quote my doctor "there are no bonus points for being able to touch your toes" My chiropractor who was a swimmer and new i did Tri also said to not do flip turns with my back. But for most people I could see how flip turns would be beneficial. For some of us older damaged bodies, it might be a bad idea.

Won't someone please think of all those poor independent contractors that got blown up!?

"You think your average storm trooper knows how to install a toilet main?"

---

"Wow, are you a triathlete?"
If spoken by a non-swimmer, that's a compliment. When spoken by a swimmer.... -glitch
My wife's blog http://www.hostilewit.com

My coach has suggested the same due to my lower back issues.

what's a flip turn ? do you do it at the end or in the middle?

---

******************************************
Have Fun ** Tri Hard ** Be Kind
******************************************

And I don't charge for entertainment.

x2. I admit I'm extremely uncoordinated, but I've been working on and off on a flip turn for about a year now. I try and try (watched all the helpful YouTube videos, did a private lesson), but I get water up my nose so I give up. Yes, I breathe out through my nose throughout the turn, but I still get water in my nose and my eyes sting. Just bought nose clips last week. But that still won't stop me from being unable to do Step #1: somersault and stand up straight at end. I *always* end up slightly lopsided and don't know why. My 10 minutes is lasting a long time. Sigh.

Not to mention it's embarrassing having the lifeguard and other swimmers watch me flounder around all lopsided looking like an idiot. I can "do" a flip turn, but even after so much practice, I'm still terrible at it.

I won't give up because I have no doubt that mastering the flip turn will help my swim in many ways.