Or: a way to "link" threads together w/o having to post... metainformation idea...

AP

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"How bad could it be?" - SimpleS

I admit it, I get my a$$ kicked by the 9 yr old girls. I swim at a YMCA and the Y Team practices at the same time I swim in the morning (around 6am). They are in the 5 lanes next to me. I admit, I will glance to see one of them passing me. And I'm doing free and they are doing back.

To the OP, my search results are from the same threads, so it looks like a lot of hits (posts) when it's usually just a few actual threads.

"Properly" executed flip-turns will not hurt your swim training. It is the most effecient way of maintaining momentum, which is the same as OW. I prefer not to take a long streamline off my turn and start the stroke as soon as my arm breaches the surface. It also forces you to control your breathing a bit more as you don't get that split second of wall grab and large gulp of air.

I still get passed by the kiddies on the swim team either way. Humiliating.

Do the flip turns. When you are in the pool, you are trying to be the best swimmer you can. That's the way to attack triathlon, be the best you can at each sport. Just do it because the swimmers do it.
Question: Is Grant Hackett worse at open water swimming than he would be if he only did open turns in the pool?

When you swim, you swim hard, you swim fast. If you could have gone harder, further, faster you would have. Doesn't matter what speed you are swimming at. If flip turns 'cheated' you in to doing your 100s on a 5 second faster interval, then maybe you got an extra 200-300 yards in your workout overall. Now which is better?

I don't make it an issue either way. I do a lot of open turns. I pretty much save the flipturns for short races in the pool. But that's laziness.

I go with the breast stroke turn just to keep it interesting.

swim individual medleys and then one can get both types of turns.

When working with my swim coached some people asked him this question.

He said in OW you have a continuous movement of going forward, flip turns are the best way to make your swimming in a pool continuous.

Also not that it happens a lot but pushing off the wall with your arms could lead to shoulder problems over time.

I kind of fear for the non-fishy triathletes if we try to make them do an old school back to breast spin turn. Or maybe I'm fearing for the lifeguards in that case. Always thought those turns were far, far harder than flip turns were.

Thank you. Your search skills are better than my search skills.

You have some good points.

Unfortunately, I'm kind of thin skinned. I'm working on that. I was a bit offended by some of the negativity. Having been on this forum a while, I know it is part of the culture. But it does not seem to accomplish anything positive.

I can understand that some people might think my questions and ideas are simple and stupid. But to me they aren't. And some people might think the answers are very obvious. Again, to me, they aren't.

I have gotten some good information from this thread. I have learned some things. I clearly understand the advantages of doing flip turns. But, again, why can't people just address the questions/concerns instead of being so critical and negative? If they don't like it, they don't need to respond.

PEOPLE BELIEVE IT'S THEIR RIGHT TO BE @SS HOLES...WHEN THEIR RIGHT IS ACTUALLY TO TURN THEIR HEAD AND IGNORE WHAT EVER IS MAKING THEM UNHAPPY!

Anyways...Start flipping!

I don't think that this is right...I am not any good at flip turns but my understanding is that the top swimmers are actually able to get, for the lack of a better term, a slingshot effect off the wall due to carrying the momentum with them into the wall. When I swim next to the good swimmers in my group they accelerate into the wall...not the opposite

I do flip turns to eliminate that extra air I get on the wall when doing the open turn. I figure I don't get that air when in open water. I know I can do the turn without taking the extra breath but i like to stay in a groove. Just my crazy head I guess.

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http://www.tritoblog.blogspot.com

I kind of fear for the non-fishy triathletes if we try to make them do an old school back to breast spin turn. Or maybe I'm fearing for the lifeguards in that case. Always thought those turns were far, far harder than flip turns were.

My kid is just started using the bucket turn in the IM. He is not a backstroker by any stretch, but he has endurance and a really good fly and breast. His coach has been swimming him in the IM this year and he is about 3 seconds from a state cut in the 200. He's got a good chance at it during the taper. His problem was that his transition from back to breaststroke was really broken and choppy. The coach taught him the bucket and it seems to have made a huge difference (well, it looks better anyhow). I couldn't do it though!

Bernie

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"Slowbern has always made astute observations."-Casey 03/10/2009
2013-2014 Detroit Lions---13-3 until proved otherwise.

That is me! Starting to do flip turns however. Not paying attention to the damn clock for now, just worried about not clocking the top of the deck with my feet.
After 7 years of swimming without flip turns I realized that it is like being lazy and only doing base work in the off season. If you want to get fast you have to go fast and flip turns help to get fast. Period.

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Looking like a color blind super hero!
Damn triathlon.

Your are correct in what you believe is happening, just not describing it correctly. I'll take a shot:

If you do a "touch and go" instead of a flip you are stopping all of your forward motion, then restarting it from zero in the other direction.

It is the same for a flip but in a flip, if done correctly, your forward motion is used to reverse your body. As you push your arms down and tuck your head the drag on your upper body will slow it, while your legs and butt continue forward and over your head. That is what causes the "flip"part of the turn. If you are really good at a flip turn and are sprinting you will actually be on your back, legs toward the wall, and still be moving slightly toward the wall. In HS I clearly remember my legs continuing to compress against the wall after I was on my back and before I snapped the my legs straight. Now not so much. Snapping your legs straight stops the motion and starts you going the other direction. All the energy conversions still happen, just at different times and at different speeds. You don't slow less, you slow quicker and more efficiently and change your body position at the same time, which is the 'slingshot effect" that you are trying to describe. A flip guy is "on the wall" a lot less time than the touch and go guy.

When I was much younger I would flip and stay on my back for a lot longer than I do now. These days, if I don't start rolling the moment my feet touch, or even slightly before, my sinuses start filling with water and I drip all day (or night).

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"...the street finds its own uses for things"

And, if you do good open turns, you can do the same. I guess you're not going to push off at all?

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Steve

"If you ain't first, you're last." Reese Bobby Talladega Nights

Think it's bad here on ST? Think there's a ton of assholes like Paulo lurking and waiting to seize a stupid post? Head over to TGR (Teton Gravity Research) and ask a seemingly "intelligent" question about skiing or boarding. You'll soon realize that ST is a loving and caring virtual family.

hahahahaha

qft

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http://www.y-rocket.blogspot.com/

I'm just glad the classic back stroke turn is no longer needed.

While the possibility exists that by asking a question, asked many times before, you will get a new answer, it probably is wise to check old threads first. Having said that you now have to answer the question of whether you are a swimmer who does Traithlons or a Triathlete who practices swimming.

If you are going into the pool with "swimmers' then there are certain skills you need. A flip turn will keep you in the lane for which your swim speed qualifies you. It will allow you to swim with other swimmers who will push you. You can swim open turns with a swim club, but will will cause a yo yo affect on the lane. I know because I swam that way for many years. My excuse, they didn't do flip turns when I swum competitively, but that was 50 years ago. Are you that old.

However as a triathlete, you have no need for a flip turn, and it scares the crap out of people if you do one at a buoy, in a race. In pool training there are plenty of things you can do to increase speed that have nothing to do with flip turns, as long as you are not swimming in a group, you are free to do what works for you.

As for all the nasty remarks about the toys, well come on people this is triathlon, it's the toys that make it great.

I get to have a special suit and a wetsuit, flash goggles, colourfull cap and training stuff galore, then I get on my toy bike, with it's race day wheels, windsuit, aero helmet, aero water bottle, special foods and drink, computer, "power" this that and the other, then lord help me I have to run, no toys (well special race day shoes, compression socks, cap, salt tablets, energy drinks and gels).

So lets stop taking the piss out of some poor bloke who can't do flip turns.

Don't be so serious people.

In defense of folks like Paulo (oh god, defending Paulo???? but who actually had good walk away advice....), OP didn't say I can't do them, or I just don't like to do them, or for him, they aren't important. I think everyone is cool with that. Train like you want. Whatever. May have gotten a few comments. Certainly not a four pager.

But the OP made an affirmative statement that it's better for triathletes not to do them because you don't do them in open water.

Then opened the door by asking whether it made sense or not

It doesn't, so people responded.

How important is a good splash during the flip turn? It seems like my flip turns are quiet and graceful unless someone is standing at the end of the lane. I really would like a consisten splash, any help is appreciated.

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Blog about being a dad and 140.6 racer wannabee. http://irondads.blogspot.com/

Still swimming well, or very well, is important. See Macca's interview on the main page where he sights a slow swim as the reason he was out of contention for Kona 2009.

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http://www.y-rocket.blogspot.com/

My take on a proper splash is that it comes from really slapping calf muscles on the surface of the water. Maybe it'll sting a little but it's a small price to pat for keeping a water buffalo out of your lane.

"But the OP made an affirmative statement that it's better for triathletes not to do them because you don't do them in open water.

Then opened the door by asking whether it made sense or not

It doesn't, so people responded."

Now I see part of the problem: how I worded things. I meant to ask it as a question, based on what I thought. But I didn't really ask it as a question.