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Re: Run Training - The Program (part 2) [Oleander] [ In reply to ]
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Awesome, Barry.

Why are striders done at the *end* of a run?

I was taught to do them at the beginning of a run (after a short warm-up). The idea (as I was taught) was that the efficiency and good form induced by the striders, would help encourage good form for the remainder of that run.

Thanks.
I would *assume* (:D) that it's done for the same reason that our coach always had us finish our runs up tempo. Theory being that finishing runs with striders, up tempo, whatever, you get used to making your body step up the effort when tired. Not sure how valid it is. :D

John



Top notch coaching: Francois and Accelerate3 | Follow on Twitter: LifetimeAthlete |
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Re: Run Training - The Program (part 2) [BarryP] [ In reply to ]
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Barry,
Looking forward to Part 3.
What are your thoughts on running on a treadmill? Not for all of the runs. Long Run outdoors, but maybe 50% of the other runs on a treadmill. What do you recommend for incline (assuming the treadmill run is not meant to be a "hill" session). Are speed days okay on a treadmill?
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Re: Run Training - The Program (part 2) [timboricki] [ In reply to ]
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Not BarryP but I've have extensive experience running on the treadmill.

Short answer: YES

Long answer see below:

I used to do >50% of my running for 9-10 months of the year on the treadmill. Never stopped me from out running the majority of the folks in races. In fact you can use it to your advantage over people who run outdoors.

The things I recommend instead of jacking up the elevation to = outside running, increase the speed. All increasing the incline does is increase the workload which is the same thing that happens when you increase the speed. If the goal is to run faster, well then why not just run faster on the treadmill instead of running up some ridiculous 4% hill?

For long runs, there is no slacking off the pace in the middle. Many people tend to have long runs that slow in the middle, it's not going to happen on the treadmill. I will admit 80-100min on the treadmill can get boring, but just create a long main set to do. 2 that I like are a series of 4-10 hill repeats of .62miles long + .13 flat (for a total of .75miles per repeat) or some sort of threshold set of 5-20 min long repeats.

For speed days once you figure out what what is the = speed for what you do outside, it's easy to control. For me I find that indoors I run about :05-:07 per mile faster then outdoors. If my threshold pace is 5:50 outside, then I run 5:45-5:40 indoors. The great thing about the treadmill is you can control the workout. Want to run quarters at 1;15 pace, you won't get a workout that has you running @ 1:17, 1:14, 1:16, you get 1:15, 1;15 etc. Mile repeats at x:xx? Highly controllable and repeatable.

It's not a question of running inside vs running outside. It's a question of doing the work in your runs to get faster.

Indoors or out, if you don't run the miles and quality, you don't get faster.

Brian Stover
Accelerate3 Coaching
Insta Twitter Bike fitting & Aero testing April 20 & 21 at A2 wind tunnel

Last edited by: desert dude: Oct 21, 09 8:52
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Re: Run Training - The Program (part 2) [Oleander] [ In reply to ]
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I try to be as open and honest as I can. It's mainly done that way because that's how my last two coaches did it. ; ^ P


Though approaching it with an open mind, it would be best to do them after you are warmed up, so I would at least give it a warmup period before attemting them (especially if you are old!).

-----------------------------Baron Von Speedypants
-----------------------------RunTraining articles here:
http://forum.slowtwitch.com/...runtraining;#1612485
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Re: Run Training - The Program (part 2) [NM Rob] [ In reply to ]
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Hey BarryP, thanks for all this. One question, with regard to your prescribed amount of strides (3-4) would you suggest these be done on the 3 non-recovery runs? Thereby allowing the three recovery runs to be just that with no additional stress added?

I do them when I feel good. Sometimes that's on a hard day. Sometimes its on a recovery day. I do agree that if your recovery day is rough, then yes, you need the recovery.

What's most important is that you do them regularly, however that happens.

-----------------------------Baron Von Speedypants
-----------------------------RunTraining articles here:
http://forum.slowtwitch.com/...runtraining;#1612485
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Re: Run Training - The Program (part 2) [desert dude] [ In reply to ]
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Not BarryP but I've have extensive experience running on the treadmill.

Short answer: YES

Long answer see below:

I used to do >50% of my running for 9-10 months of the year on the treadmill. Never stopped me from out running the majority of the folks in races. In fact you can use it to your advantage over people who run outdoors.

The things I recommend instead of jacking up the elevation to = outside running, increase the speed. All increasing the incline does is increase the workload which is the same thing that happens when you increase the speed. If the goal is to run faster, well then why not just run faster on the treadmill instead of running up some ridiculous 4% hill?

For long runs, there is no slacking off the pace in the middle. Many people tend to have long runs that slow in the middle, it's not going to happen on the treadmill. I will admit 80-100min on the treadmill can get boring, but just create a long main set to do. 2 that I like are a series of 4-10 hill repeats of .62miles long + .13 flat (for a total of .75miles per repeat) or some sort of threshold set of 5-20 min long repeats.

For speed days once you figure out what what is the = speed for what you do outside, it's easy to control. For me I find that indoors I run about :05-:07 per mile faster then outdoors. If my threshold pace is 5:50 outside, then I run 5:45-5:40 indoors. The great thing about the treadmill is you can control the workout. Want to run quarters at 1;15 pace, you won't get a workout that has you running @ 1:17, 1:14, 1:16, you get 1:15, 1;15 etc. Mile repeats at x:xx? Highly controllable and repeatable.

It's not a question of running inside vs running outside. It's a question of doing the work in your runs to get faster.

Indoors or out, if you don't run the miles and quality, you don't get faster.

Thanks for this Brian.

https://www.miles4matt.run/
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Re: Run Training - The Program (part 2) [pdxjohn] [ In reply to ]
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Barry, terrific stuff. Thanks.

Question: How would you revise, modify or ammend these concepts for experienced AGers age 55+? If at all.

Unfortunately I don't know much about the changes as one ages (though I'm starting to learn as I age!!!). The fundamentals are the same. In general, you just have to take care of yourself.

One myth I can dispell is that older people shouldn't run every day. People are under the misconception that running 6 days a week is harder. This is completely false. Running 3 times a week is harder, given the same total weekly volume. If you are running 15 miles a week by doing three 5 milers, I have you doing 3 1.5 milers, 2 3 milers, and a 5 miler. That will be the easier training load....running 5 once a week, instead of 3 times a week.

-----------------------------Baron Von Speedypants
-----------------------------RunTraining articles here:
http://forum.slowtwitch.com/...runtraining;#1612485
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Re: Run Training - The Program (part 2) [daveinmammoth] [ In reply to ]
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1) Do you still start with 6 runs/week?
2) How do you pick a volume per week to start?
3) Anything else you'd change?
4) Any other tips with patellar tendonitis? I've asked world class runners, world class running coaches, orthopedists, and sports med guys....and my conclusion is that nobody knows what causes it and how to treat it. My impression was that really good runners don't get it much....must be a disease of wanna-be runners.

1) yes.

2) it depends on what kind of shape you are in. Terrible shape? 5, 10, and 15 minute runs (5, 10, 5, 10, 5, 0, 15) is a good start. If it seems way too easy, then you can always increase it a little faster than usual. The big thing that Desert Dude has to remind me is to think long term. Add 5 minutes to the short runs each week (which is very aggressive) and you are at 25, 50, 25, 50, 25, 1:15 in a month. The point is, if you start out too easy, you'll eventually get to a challenging level. If you start out too hard......well.....you can start out easy again in a few months when you are back where you started. ; ^ P

3) Nope.

4) Unfortunately I'm not of much help.

-----------------------------Baron Von Speedypants
-----------------------------RunTraining articles here:
http://forum.slowtwitch.com/...runtraining;#1612485
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Re: Run Training - The Program (part 2) [desert dude] [ In reply to ]
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Not BarryP but I've have extensive experience running on the treadmill.

What he said.

-----------------------------Baron Von Speedypants
-----------------------------RunTraining articles here:
http://forum.slowtwitch.com/...runtraining;#1612485
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Re: Run Training - The Program (part 2) [BarryP] [ In reply to ]
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Barry,

I thought of a couple f/u questions for you. I'm starting with short =10 min, medium = 20, long = 30. Mcmillan (?sp) calculator asks you for a race and a time - Do you use your best recent race or a rough estimate of what I could run today? I haven't run for 2+ months.

Then for "base" phase 1 - you say all at easy pace. Easy pace is faster than recover pace or long pace (well they all start the same but recovery and long are longer ranges with a slower slow end....). Do I run all my runs as easy pace or some at recovery/long? I know to make it feel "easy" and adjust and all - just wondering....

Thanks,

Dave
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Re: Run Training - The Program (part 2) [daveinmammoth] [ In reply to ]
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train based upon the current shape you are in. If you have not run in 2 months your race times from then are worthless now.

When he says easy, i think he is talking about a pace you can sustain day in day out for your runs, something that doesn't make you wake up and think wtf was I thinking during yesterdays run.

Why should easy pace be faster then long run pace?

Since you know how to make it easy, run easy.

When you are starting back, the consistency of running day after day far outweighs being a hero on day 1 then logging zero's on days 2 & 3.

Brian Stover
Accelerate3 Coaching
Insta Twitter Bike fitting & Aero testing April 20 & 21 at A2 wind tunnel

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Re: Run Training - The Program (part 2) [desert dude] [ In reply to ]
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Brian this is for you or anyone that has used McMillan calc before....

My paces to start Barry's program are as follows:
Recovery Jogs 8:12-8:42
Long Runs 7:12-8:12
Easy Runs 7:12-7:42

For the short/med/long setup I would use the "easy runs" pace for the medium runs correct?

__________________________
Paul
AmateurEndurance.com
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Re: Run Training - The Program (part 2) [sandiegopj] [ In reply to ]
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yes.
The majority of your running imo should be easy pace. I'm familiar with mcmillian but admit I have not spent a ton of time on there playing with the calculator.

That being said, never underestimate how fast you can get off of easy running.

Brian Stover
Accelerate3 Coaching
Insta Twitter Bike fitting & Aero testing April 20 & 21 at A2 wind tunnel

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Re: Run Training - The Program (part 2) [daveinmammoth] [ In reply to ]
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I'd recommend rest immediately. I beat mine up for a while - hard to recall but I think I continued to run for about a year. I then took several months off but recurred quickly. I think I tried that twice. Finally stopped training for about 2 years I think. I then started training again without recurrence. I never did formal PT. I tried a program of the knee bends on a slanted board on my own - can't recall how long I tried that but not too long....didn't seem to help. I think my major problem was that I continued to run initially on it. Maybe if I stopped immediately and did a 2-3 month program, i could have gotten through it......hard to know. It was the hardest injury I've had to get through....shin splints, plantar fasciitis, weird outer foot things, hip things have all been a few weeks to 2-3 months at most to recover.

I tried the patellar knee straps - didn't like those.

Dave
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