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Run Training - The Program (part 2)
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A continuation of Run Training - The Program (part 1)

http://forum.slowtwitch.com/...;;page=unread#unread


A Quick Summary of Part 1

Phase 1 – all easy paced training using the paces @ www.mcmillanrunning.com. Run 6 days a week using a 1:2:3 ration (ie short runs of 15 minutes, medium runs of 30 minutes, and a long run of 45 minutes....just as an example). Gradually increase mileage, but by no more than 10% from one week to the next.

Phase 2 – replace one medium run a week with a threshold workout of 20-60 minutes long.

Phase 3 – replace the other medium run with a race specific workout.

Some people will never reach phases 2 or 3.

Working Toward a Goal Race

Every now and then I’ll get someone to ask me how to train for a sprint triathlon in 2 months and then get ready for a half marathon 6 weeks after that. My answer is I don’t know. My training strategy is geared toward an end of the season A race. Everything else in the plan is secondary to that. You can either train for the sprint tri and run the best half marathon you can 6 weeks after your peak, or you can train for the half marathon and run the best tri split you can in the middle of phase 3 of your half marathon training.

Nevertheless, your goal race will largely determine what kind of workouts you do in phase 3 of your training plan. I will address each race distance below and do my best to account for different ability levels and how one should adjust their training.

Training Balance

I started an entire thread on this here:

http://forum.slowtwitch.com/gforum.cgi?post=1600721;search_string=runtraining11;#1600721

Too many athletes compartmentalize training into an either-or approach. Do you need speed, or do you need distance? You need both. The question is how much of each do you need, and that largely depends on your level of fitness as well as the race distance you plan to run. See the chart below for a graphical explanaition:




Allow me to briefly explain this chart. To put it simply, the shorter your race is, the more speed and less endurance training you are going to need. The longer your race is, the more endurance and the less speed training you are going to need. Somewhere in between the two extremes you will also need a mixture of threshold (those 20 to 60 minute sustained hard runs) and V02max training (efforts at 3K to 5K race pace).

What mixture would that be? It all depends on how long it is going to take you to finish a race. The actual length of the race is not necessarily that important, nor is how long it will take you to finish it. It’s really about what energy systems your body will be utilizing while racing, which can be predicted by the two previous variables.

I have circled above an athlete who runs about 33 miles a week and is in phase 3 of his training. His goal race is a stand alone 5k, which will take him about 20 minutes to complete. Looking at the chart above you can see that he will want about an even mix of threshold and V02max training, and a good portion of speed work (efforts at 1k to 2K race pace), while still maintaining a large amount of easy running to build the aerobic system (reminder: all of this training develops the aerobic system. The easy training targets it best because you can do lots and lots of it). What’s most important to understand here is that if this athlete was, instead, training for a half marathon, he needs more threshold training and more easy running while requiring less V02max and speed training (look just to the left of the 60 minute mark). If he is training for an Ironman, he will mostly need lots and lots of easy running (speed work to run 10 minute miles? Nah.)

Standalone Training versus Tri-Training

The above chart is meant for standalone races. I use a really simple conversion to compare stand alone training to tri-training. The run segment of a triathlon is equivalent to double that distance as a stand alone race. In other words, in order to be properly trained to run the 5K segment of a sprint triathlon, you should train to be in 10K stand alone racing shape. For a Half Ironman, you want to be in marathon shape.

This has little to do with being able to run twice as far and more to do with training the proper energy systems. Triathlons are simply run slower than standalone races, so using the chart above, everything slides to the left. The 5k segment of a sprint tri is going to require just a little less speed and a less trained V02max than a stand alone 5K, while relying more on your aerobic conditioning.

Interval Training

Below you will see recommendations for two types of interval training: V02max intervals and threshold/V02max borderline intervals.

I typically recommend that V02max intervals be done starting at around 5K race pace and done for a distance that takes 3 to 3 ½ minutes to cover. For most people this will be 800m. I like the recoveries to be 2 to 2 ½ minutes, or 300-400m. Begin at 5K race pace on the first interval and gradually work your way down to 5-10 sec faster than that pace per interval (or 10-20 sec/mile faster). Be very careful to stay under control. The intent is not to kill yourself during these interval sessions. As a general rule, if you can’t go immediately into a jog after your interval, you are working too hard. Some good coaches disagree with me on this point, but I find that the potential reward of training any harder does not outweigh the risk of over training if the intervals are run to the point of exhaustion. Always remember, if you leave the track a bit undertrained, you can always just run more mileage the next day.

The threshold/V02max borderline intervals are run at 45 minute race pace and are typically done at a ratio of 100m jogging for every 500m running. I prefer 1500m intervals with 300m jogs. You will find this workout to be a bit less stressful than the above intervals and the jog breaks will be rather short.

Speed Training

What I call speed training is what Jack Daniels refers to as Repetition training. He typically recommends them as 200-400m intervals, while Pfitzinger and Galloway (from his first book) recommend them in 100m chunks. Either way, I like to do these with easy jogs of equal lengths in between each one. The pace should be pretty close to mile race pace, which is a pace that is pretty quick yet not really close to all out sprinting. I don’t really recommend much of this for longer race distances as its benefits become less and less important for the longer distances. Striders (explained later) are used in place of speed for these distances.

Threshold/Tempo Runs

From part 1:

Jack Daniels has a nice chart on page 114 of his 2nd edition Running Formula to cover the different paces one should run for different durations. Greg McMillan also covers these paces in his pace calculator.

The chart in Daniels’ Formula is pretty self explanatory. Regarding McMillan’s site, use the tempo run pace to describe sustained 20 minute runs, and the steady state pace to describe threshold runs from 40 minutes (lower range) and to 60 minutes (upper range).

Once you have moved out of the base phase, I recommend throwing in a single threshold workout each week in place of a medium run. I recommend a mix of the lengths described above (20 to 60 minutes) at the corresponding paces. However, the entire workout, including warmup and cool down, should be at least a mile or two shorter than your medium run. For many of you, this will limit you to shorter workouts (20 minute range). I also recommend giving yourself at least 2 weeks to adjust to this workout, starting off with half the distance the first week, and then ¾ distance the next. Overall weekly mileage should not be increased at this time as the added intensity will lead to an increased training load. In fact, a *reduction* in mileage may be necessary and should be considered the day or two after this workout is introduced.

Cruise (threshold) Intervals

Some people prefer to do threshold training as intervals. The nice thing about cruise intervals is that you can do about 50% more work than you can with a tempo run. There is a compromise between the two workouts. Cruise intervals allow you to do more work, while tempo runs allow you to mimic race conditions. I recommend a mix of both. The rest should be kept very short for cruise intervals. A ration of 5:1 is appropriate (5min working, 1min jog, or 10min working, 2min jog, etc.)

Tips about Steady State Runs

60 minutes on a track? Are you kidding me?! I prefer to do these near a track and then map out a course that I can run off of the track to try and break up the monotony. I’ll run my first mile on the track to dial in the pace, and then 1-2 miles off of the track at that same effort, and then another 1-2 laps on the track to make sure the pace is still good, and then back out onto the course. Rinse and repeat for 60 minutes.

The Training Continuum

In the above chart I talked about endurance, threshold, V02max, and speed training as if they are four completely separate concepts. There is no magic black line that compartmentalizes one training zone as being completely different from another one. It's presented this way as a means to be able to talk about different types of training and how and why it is done, but if the chart above was to be drawn more accurately, it would be more of an overlapped mishmashing of the different colors. Training at mile race pace will improve all of the energy systems that affect your body’s ability to run an ultra marathon just like easy running will improve your mile time, when compared to doing nothing at all. Running just a little less a little faster or a little more a little slower will have very similar effects.

And that last sentence I think is very valuable information to know. If you ever get into a workout and find that you have run it faster than you should have, simply cut the workout short and know with confidence that you had a good workout.

Weather Considerations

Heat and humidity slow you down. Remember this on workout day.

Ultra Long Runs

For longer races (mainly half and full marathons) it may not be possible for you to get in an adequate length long run following the advice laid out here (a long run of at least 80% of the race distance). In this case, I recommend an ultra long run every 2-3 weeks with a normal long run on the in between weeks. The ultra long run should increase by about 1-2 mile increments on the alternating weeks and build toward at least 80% of the race distance, or 3 hours, whichever is less. In the case of a half marathon, if possible, the ultra long run can be pushed up to 13-15 miles.

An example of a long run progression for a 4:8:12 athlete might be as follows: 12 miles one week, 13 the next, 12 the week after that, 14-15 following that week, back to 12, etc. Back out of the goal race week enough weeks using this progression to see at what point you’ll need to begin your ultra long runs.

Warning about ultra long runs – During the course of an ultra long run there often comes a point where the body starts to feel pretty bad. I never recommend running for more than 10 minutes beyond this point as it will dramatically affect the rest of your week’s training. This may prevent you from reaching your eventual goal ultra long run, but you simply can’t force your body to be more fit than it is and your goal in training is to do the training that you are currently prepared for, not the training you want to be prepared for.

Striders

2 to 4 times a week finish your run with a set of three to six 50 meter striders. This is a short fast run (but not a sprint) where you concentrate on form to the best of your ability. The theory behind striders is that at higher speeds your body self corrects it form and teaches you to run more efficiently.

Races as Workouts

Always remember that on any week that you run a race that you should eliminate one of your workouts. For a 5K race (not a sprint-tri) I recommend eliminating the interval workout for that week (if one is scheduled). For anything longer, eliminate a threshold workout. For harder races, keep in mind that you may need several days or longer of recovery. The key concept to take away here is to make sure you don’t boost your training load as a result of not compensating for a race with the rest of your week’s training.

Tapering

Always include a taper before your goal race. Shorter races like a 5K need only 4-9 days for a taper. Longer races require more….2 to 3 weeks for a marathon and 3 to 5 weeks for an Ironman. Keep in mind in the following sections that whenever I refer to periods before the goal race, I am actually referring to the number of weeks before the beginning of the taper.

Coming soon: Part 3 - Putting it all together for differnt race distances

-----------------------------Baron Von Speedypants
-----------------------------RunTraining articles here:
http://forum.slowtwitch.com/...runtraining;#1612485
Last edited by: BarryP: Oct 16, 09 11:21
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Re: Run Training - The Program (part 2) [BarryP] [ In reply to ]
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Way too important to fall off the front page that quickly

Mark
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Re: Run Training - The Program (part 2) [BarryP] [ In reply to ]
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Where do you place hill repeats in this program (if at all). If you are targetting hill(y) races, then I find they are important. At what point would you introduce them? Instead of intervals?




http://recipher.co.uk/
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Re: Run Training - The Program (part 2) [BarryP] [ In reply to ]
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Why are these being posted as posts here, instead of articles?

I really appreciate them, but think they'll have more staying power show
up better in searches as articles? Is this something Barry/Dan/Jordan could
work out?

-Jot
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Re: Run Training - The Program (part 2) [gamebofh] [ In reply to ]
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Quote:
Why are these being posted as posts here, instead of articles?

I really appreciate them, but think they'll have more staying power show
up better in searches as articles? Is this something Barry/Dan/Jordan could
work out?

That's completely up to them. I would be more than flattered if that were the case, but I also understand that I'm somewhat of a nobody in the big picture. I'm just a guy who runs kinda, sorta well and coached a handful of high school teams kinda, sorta well. Maybe I have a talent for wrtiting the information in a way that makes sense....maybe not.

-----------------------------Baron Von Speedypants
-----------------------------RunTraining articles here:
http://forum.slowtwitch.com/...runtraining;#1612485
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Re: Run Training - The Program (part 2) [BarryP] [ In reply to ]
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Barry:

I took a couple of months to digest the collection of your run postings, and put a run plan in place for a couple of key races in 2010. I am four weeks into the base building, hopefully looking towards a PR in a 1/2 Marathon next May and a solid run for an IM next September.

We shall see....
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Re: Run Training - The Program (part 2) [recipher] [ In reply to ]
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Where do you place hill repeats in this program (if at all). If you are targetting hill(y) races, then I find they are important. At what point would you introduce them? Instead of intervals?

Damn! I knew I forgot something. I had this sitting around waiting for some final editing, and I wanted to touch on that. I'll simply quote Desert Dude here:

"Yes. Hills are good. Run them a lot."


Where to put in hill training might be one of my weaknesses. I think that some workouts should be done on hills, some long runs should be done on hills, and some medium runs should be done on hills. If your A race is hilly, then hills are even more important.


One thing I have attempted that worked out well is if you can find a really long hill, park about half way down it, warmup to the bottom of the hill, and then do your workout up it, and then cooldown back to your car. Intervals can be done this way as well, but do the jogs down hill. For a V02max interval workout, my coach (after I left college) would have the team do 3 minutes hard up the hill, and 2 minutes jogging back down. Repeat until you hit the top. If you hit the top early.....well, the rest of your workout will just be flat.

For any distance events longer than 2K, the hills don't have to be steep at all.

-----------------------------Baron Von Speedypants
-----------------------------RunTraining articles here:
http://forum.slowtwitch.com/...runtraining;#1612485
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Re: Run Training - The Program (part 2) [BarryP] [ In reply to ]
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Great stuff, Barry.

-----
Two roads diverged in a wood, and I--
I took the one less traveled by,
Which is probably why I was registering 59.67mi as I rolled into T2.

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Re: Run Training - The Program (part 2) [BarryP] [ In reply to ]
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your goal in training is to do the training that you are currently prepared for, not the training you want to be prepared for.

Ahh, if only we could remember this day after day. To this I would add another note; your goal race pace should be determined using the training you have already done, not by decided the pace you wish you could run.

Chad
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Re: Run Training - The Program (part 2) [BarryP] [ In reply to ]
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when do you move from phase I to phase II? When you are up to 45 minutes of easy running 6x per week?
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Re: Run Training - The Program (part 2) [mr. mike] [ In reply to ]
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I cover that a bit in part 3. 1st off, you wouldn't be doing 45 minutes a day as I advocate doing short, medium, and long runs. So a 45 minute a day guys would actually be doing ~ 27, 54, and an 81 minute run (27, 54, 27, 54, 27, 0, 81).

There's an art to it and it all depends on your fitness level and the race you are training for. Most people training for an IM may never get out of phase 1.

If you can be a little patient, I cover this in part 3 next week.

-----------------------------Baron Von Speedypants
-----------------------------RunTraining articles here:
http://forum.slowtwitch.com/...runtraining;#1612485
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Re: Run Training - The Program (part 2) [BarryP] [ In reply to ]
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awesome info barry..


"it takes commitment and clear understanding that being an endurance athlete is just hard. there are no short cuts."

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Re: Run Training - The Program (part 2) [BarryP] [ In reply to ]
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In regards to hills. I personally think way too many people do way too many hill repeats (ie run up a hill really fast turn around jog down and repeat), way too fast, way to often.

Something like that, depending upon the steepness of course, would best used to develop power (notice I didn't say strength :-)) and/or vo2/anaerobic capacity/neuromuscluar systems.

For people running over hilly races, the limiting factor isn't how many hills you've done or how hard you've run them. The limiting factor is how fit you are and secondarily how much of a beating are the downhills going to dish out to you. The fitter you are the easier the uphills will be and the less punishing the downhills will be.

I think the best thing for most people would be to incorporate rolling/hilly terrain into their everyday runs, tempo, threshold runs and long runs and skip specific hill repeat sessions unless they are shoring up a glaring weakness.

Brian Stover
Accelerate3 Coaching
Insta Twitter PM for info on aero testing, bike fitting or both in April at the tunnel

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Re: Run Training - The Program (part 2) [desert dude] [ In reply to ]
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Re - hard, fast hill repeats. They seem to have a lot more value for 800m-1500m types, and 5K XC runners who might have to run some pretty steep hills.


Hills were a big deal during Lydiard's era and on into Galloway's book in '84 (who made it big during the Lydiard years). You haven't seen much emphasis on them as of late.

-----------------------------Baron Von Speedypants
-----------------------------RunTraining articles here:
http://forum.slowtwitch.com/...runtraining;#1612485
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Re: Run Training - The Program (part 2) [BarryP] [ In reply to ]
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As you add miles to your plan do you add minutes across many workouts to keep your 1:2:3 ratio...or do you keep it say 5 minute chunks...

ie.

Week 1:
10, 20, 10, 20, 10, 0, 30 would become 10, 20, 15, 20, 10, 0, 35 adding 10%
Or
10, 20, 10, 20, 10, 0, 30 would become 11, 22, 11, 22, 11, 0, 39 adding 10% (plus one minute to keep the 1:2:3 ratio)

________________
Blogging
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Re: Run Training - The Program (part 2) [JReed] [ In reply to ]
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Not entirely sure how Barry would do it, but I'd choose 2 runs to add some time to instead of adding time to all the runs. Hold for 2-4 weeks then repeat with 2 more runs.

Brian Stover
Accelerate3 Coaching
Insta Twitter PM for info on aero testing, bike fitting or both in April at the tunnel

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Re: Run Training - The Program (part 2) [desert dude] [ In reply to ]
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Similar to fast finish long runs, I like to throw in hill finish workouts. Teaching tired legs how to suddenly change gears has helped my race performance tremendously over the last 2-3 seasons. I find that tackling a nice 10-15 minute steady grade at the end of a 120 minute run really emphasizes the importance of solid form and turnover.

"The right to party is a battle we have fought, but we'll surrender and go Amish... NOT!" -Wayne Campbell
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Re: Run Training - The Program (part 2) [JReed] [ In reply to ]
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Early on I add minutes to my runs. Usually 2, 4, and 6 minutes each week. So it might look like this:


week 1 8, 16, 8, 16, 8, 0, 24
week 2 10, 20, 10, 20, 10, 0, 30
week 3 12, 24, 12, 24, 12, 0, 36


And then later on I start thinking in miles, and bump them up in terms of round miles. I do it mainly because it makes things easier for me as I have a couple of loops that I like to do. So it might look like this:


week 6 3, 6, 3, 6, 3, 0, 9 = 30
10% of 30 is 3 miles, so I'll add a mile to 3 of the runs

week 7 4, 6, 4, 6, 3, 0, 10

At this point the 4s stay 4s until the 6s work up to 8s.



Notice early on the I violate the 10% rule. Sometimes I do that, but usually as a result of deliberately under training to begin with.


DDs method works as well.

-----------------------------Baron Von Speedypants
-----------------------------RunTraining articles here:
http://forum.slowtwitch.com/...runtraining;#1612485
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Re: Run Training - The Program (part 2) [BarryP] [ In reply to ]
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Barry, thanks for sharing this great information.

I have a question about the taper section.

Isn't tapering more to ensure full recovery from the prior workload? Once you are fully recovered, your fitness begins to decline. Why would you need a longer taper for a longer race? My assumption has always been that an IM triathlete needs a longer taper because their IM training dug them in to a deeper hole prior to the race.
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Re: Run Training - The Program (part 2) [jyeager] [ In reply to ]
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To be honest, I don't have a great answer. I've spent most of my training and coaching in the 5K-20K range and have just pretty much found the sweet spot for tapering based off of experience, a bit of research, and advice from coaches and other runners. I just happen to know that they usually recommend a longer taper for the marathon, probably for similar reasons to an IM taper.

Perhaps Desert Dude or a resident SME (subject matter expert) would like to chime in?

-----------------------------Baron Von Speedypants
-----------------------------RunTraining articles here:
http://forum.slowtwitch.com/...runtraining;#1612485
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Re: Run Training - The Program (part 2) [jyeager] [ In reply to ]
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In Reply To:
Isn't tapering more to ensure full recovery from the prior workload? Once you are fully recovered, your fitness begins to decline. Why would you need a longer taper for a longer race? My assumption has always been that an IM triathlete needs a longer taper because their IM training dug them in to a deeper hole prior to the race.

I'm not Barry, though I'm sure he may have some follow up comment, but an athlete shouldn't NEED anything from a taper other than putting on the last 5% of finishing touches to your training. If an athlete is looking at the taper as "digging out of a hole" there are other issues to address before finding the ideal taper length since there shouldn't be a hole in the first place. One idea that has come up before regarding IM training was to take a taper-ish week about 3-4 weeks out from the race and then go into the race with relatively normal training hours in the weeks immediately preceding the race. That way you are guaranteed some freshening if have dug yourself a hole, but you can reestablish some consistency going into the race, which is itself important because plenty of people screw themselves up by tapering too much.

For marathons, my preference has been to keep the mileage relatively steady (with some obvious reduction since you won't pad your mileage with 20-22 milers in the last couple of weeks) but to decrease the intensity. Plenty of people like to cut mileage and raise the intensity, which is fine for shorter events from 800m-10k, but for the marathon (and I would presume IM too) doing too much intense work close to the race with reduced mileage ends up screwing with your metabolism. Athletes will spend months and month building themselves into highly efficient fat burning machines (ideal for the marathon) but then throw their metabolism way off with intense VO2 max type sessions in the last two weeks before the race and then crash and burn around mile 20-22. I'm sure you can find some examples of guys like Shorter who did taper with intense track work, but keep in mind he was also running 150mpw at times. Historically speaking, the idea of a huge taper to "dig yourself out of a hole" gained traction for good reason in the running boom of the 70s when guys were running ridiculously high mileage and flogging themselves into the ground and really did NEED to take three taper weeks to literally lick their wounds before the race. As a general matter you can have a more extreme taper on a higher mileage program simply because there is more to taper from (and by mileage, I don't just mean mileage in your most recent training plan; I'm also referring to lifetime mileage), but you shouldn't NEED the taper. A 55-60mpw runner who has been running for 4-5 years should not be tapering in the same manner as someone running 100mpw for a decade.
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Re: Run Training - The Program (part 2) [LarryP] [ In reply to ]
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Quote:
Athletes will spend months and month building themselves into highly efficient fat burning machines (ideal for the marathon) but then throw their metabolism way off with intense VO2 max type sessions in the last two weeks before the race and then crash and burn around mile 20-22


???????????????

Brian Stover
Accelerate3 Coaching
Insta Twitter PM for info on aero testing, bike fitting or both in April at the tunnel

Last edited by: desert dude: Aug 7, 15 10:42
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Re: Run Training - The Program (part 2) [BarryP] [ In reply to ]
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Barry, thank you for this. I have read over the years your thoughts on running and have always been intrigued. I actually did a search before joining the forum tonight on "benefits of running everyday" basically from the history of your writings. funny this post was on the front page.

What pace would you recommend someone starting phase 1 trying to build up running 6 days a week? I have been running for too long now, and what to change it up to shock the system. Goal will be to build to a half marathon or half ironman (still undecided) in spring/early summer. normally i would run outside or get on the treadmill, put it on 7.5 and maybe put in some speed intervals around 8.5 to 9.0 but as you can imagine not seeing any real improvements.

any advice you have is appreciated.

thanks again.
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Re: Run Training - The Program (part 2) [desert dude] [ In reply to ]
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In Reply To:
Athletes will spend months and month building themselves into highly efficient fat burning machines (ideal for the marathon) but then throw their metabolism way off with intense VO2 max type sessions in the last two weeks before the race and then crash and burn around mile 20-22
In Reply To:


???????????????
OK, that probably gives too much credit to most people in suggesting that they actually enter the marathon peaking phase as "efficient fat burning machines", but essentially you don't want to get 'too sharp' when preparing for the marathon, especially as the duration of the race increases beyond 3 hours. VO2 max sessions will have the corresponding effect of increasing the ratio of carbs burned in relation to fats. If you train your body to burn carbs at too high a ratio early in the marathon you'll run out of gas at the 20+ mile mark and then wonder "how many additional gels should I have carried?" and start "Critique my Marathon Nutrition Plan" threads when the problem was in the sequencing of the training. Obviously, if you don't do any sharpening work for the shorter events, you run the risk of never getting out of first gear, so vo2max work does have value as a peaking element for events around 15-20 minutes. For the marathon though, too much vo2max oriented work close to the race (especially if it is accompanied by an excessive decrease in mileage) will make the runner too sharp and set up potential disaster in the last 5k. Yes, Pfitzinger does have what he calls "vo2max" sessions of repeat 600s at 5k pace at the ends of his programs, but unless you are running your 5ks faster than the world record, 5k pace is quite different than vo2max pace for most of the target audience running close to 20 minutes. A relatively short distance (600m) at a less than all-out pace (5k pace) in manageable quantities (7-8 reps) is normally fine for tuning up without changing the body's metabolic calibration as it relates to demands of a 3+ hour race.
Last edited by: LarryP: Oct 17, 09 6:20
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Re: Run Training - The Program (part 2) [BarryP] [ In reply to ]
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In Reply To:
V02max training (efforts at 3K to 5K race pace).

How is 5km or even 3km pace a VO2max training effort? 5km pace is nowhere near a VO2max effort. (3:55/km vs 3:15/km for me) and 3 1/2 minute intervals at 3:55 with 2 minute recoveries are an easy workout.

Could you define your use of the term "over training" here? Very overloaded term, and I think a suggestion that you can become overtrained simply by doing the odd interval session such that you have to take a short walk break at the end of each interval would lead to it isn't too normal.

On the general point, 20minute 5km is something any averagely fit male under 40 should comfortably be able to train to (how much training will purely depend on pre-start of exercise fitness - and particularly weight) and most should be able to get there with just about any sort of training rather than a carefully laid plan.
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Re: Run Training - The Program (part 2) [BarryP] [ In reply to ]
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In other words, in order to be properly trained to run the 5K segment of a sprint triathlon, you should train to be in 10K stand alone racing shape. For a Half Ironman, you want to be in marathon shape.

Thank you for the great info Barry... I'm happy to know that my deductive reasoning skills are working. After 5 years of trying to get faster (and only minimally doing so), I am approaching next year with the above approach. My big goal races for 2010 are Olympic Distance, but I am training through the winter to run fast half-mary's using Daniels'. I believe it will work well, but I guess we'll see.

Tony
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Re: Run Training - The Program (part 2) [JibberJim] [ In reply to ]
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Fantastic stuff Barry. Thanks.
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Re: Run Training - The Program (part 2) [BarryP] [ In reply to ]
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In other words, in order to be properly trained to run the 5K segment of a sprint triathlon, you should train to be in 10K stand alone racing shape. For a Half Ironman, you want to be in marathon shape.

My question is: Where does this end?

I've definitely found that I seem to get the best results if I've trained for a distance longer than the race, but
in running I feel there is no way for me to "over distance" for a marathon. I.e. For a HM I can over distance
but are you supposed to train for Ultras in order to run the fastest marathon?

-Jot




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Re: Run Training - The Program (part 2) [navytriathlete] [ In reply to ]
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Barry, two things...

1) I've got my Oly tomorrow. Thanks for the PM guidance. Hoping, with 4 months of running, that I'll fire off a 42' 10K tomorrow. I'd be thrilled, considering that I was running 6 miles (1M/day x 6 days) 22 weeks ago, and am at ~30 miles easily/week, with some relatively hard efforts thrown in there.

2) about the 1:2:3 ratio. What if it was 50%:75%:100%. So, 5 mile easy, 7-8 mile medium, 10 mile long? Just curious, as especially the first several weeks, I 'violated' the 1:2:3 rule for the 50-75-100 (but not in the mileage I gave as an example).

Thanks, and my success tomorrow (or complete flamout!!!) is due, in no small part, to your help.

Mike
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Re: Run Training - The Program (part 2) [BarryP] [ In reply to ]
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Great post Barry...and timely for me as I'm working on my BQ plan ;-)

I'm glad you pointed out the typical "I want to do well at A and at B where A and B are completely different beasts" scenario that are the jist of so many posts on ST... N=1, but I have always found my performance improves far more when I am focused on one goal. Perhaps it's the ability to focus not only on training but also on the race itself that leads to achieving my racing goals. I often think triathletes in particular (as compared to runners or cyclists) are a bit too ADD/underfocused/distracted by the nature of multisport, so that when confronted with trying to achieve a single-sport goal, the triathlete is a bit handicapped compared to the single-disciplined athlete.

When I do a long block of single-sport training (my current running block as an example), I spend the first weeks trying to regain the ability to focus. Focus on the goal, focus on and during each session, focus on recovery. Once I get that focus back, then pushing hard during intervals, or hills, or threshold sessions is achievable. Likewise, having increased confidence to do an easy, recovery run that actually is an easy run returns... I am far less likely to feel I have to man-up and go hard all the time.

I am often surprised at how many triathletes do little to no mental training, including realistic goal setting, and yet expect great results. If you keep doing things the same way, why do you expect different results?

Keep 'em coming, Barry.


AP

------------------------
"How bad could it be?" - SimpleS
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Re: Run Training - The Program (part 2) [LarryP] [ In reply to ]
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You do realize substrate utilization is dependent upon intensity don't you?

Of course vo2 workouts will increase the % of cho vs fat utilized....for that workout.

But in the grand scheme of things you really think doing a few vo2 sessions will increase your marathon intensity so much that your RER is going to skew that much?

Brian Stover
Accelerate3 Coaching
Insta Twitter PM for info on aero testing, bike fitting or both in April at the tunnel

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Re: Run Training - The Program (part 2) [JibberJim] [ In reply to ]
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Quote:
How is 5km or even 3km pace a VO2max training effort? 5km pace is nowhere near a VO2max effort.

Keep in mind that I said "V02max training" and not "trainining at V02max pace." I actually sent Jack Daniels an email about this a while ago and got a response. His contention was that 11 minutes a mile is, if I remember correctly, V02max pace. It's quite possible that it is 98% of V02max pace.

Nevertheless, the purpose of the interval sessions are to improve performance.....nothing more, nothing less. Even at 45 minute race pace, which is....I think....something in the range of 88% of V02max, you are still siginificantly stimulating improvements in V02max.

There is some benefit to training faster for certain people, for certain work/rest intervals, to prepare for certain race distances. However, I have found that the cosequences of running this type of workout any faster outweigh the benefits for most people, especially if not under the guidance of a coach.


Quote:

and 3 1/2 minute intervals at 3:55 with 2 minute recoveries are an easy workout.

I find that quite interesting as I've seen hoards of people at the University of Delaware adult track practice do exactly the same workout and finish gasping for air. I wouldn't be able to comment any further without actually seeing you do the workout, starting at 5K pace for your first 1,000m and finishing at 3K pace on your 5th or 6th 1,000m and actually observing it being "easy."


Quote:

Could you define your use of the term "over training" here?

Racing times can decrease because one doesn't train enough (undertraining) or because they train too hard (overtraining). An example would be a person who adds 3 miles a week to their training plan. Starting from zero, they will see race performances improve over the weeks. Their fitness at 10 weeks (30 miles) will likely be greater than their fiteness during their 3 mile week. However, their race times at 40 weeks, assuming they are an average athlete, will likely be worse (assuming they managed to avoid injury) as they are now running 120 miles a week, a number which is well above their recovery rate.


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Very overloaded term, and I think a suggestion that you can become overtrained simply by doing the odd interval session such that you have to take a short walk break at the end of each interval would lead to it isn't too normal.

Normal defined by what? What the average person who doesn't know what they are doing thinks? What is "normal" is usualy bad training conventions based off of locker room myths and misconceptions of training fundamentals.

One of those myths is that hammering workouts to death week in and week out is going to be the magic ingredient toward stellar race performances. That simply isn't true, and more often than not, it leads to early plateaus and inhibits long term improvements.

One of my favorite quotes comes from a training partner of mine: "If you think this workout is too easy, you should try and complete it after a 120 mile week." That's the problem I see. People hammer away at workouts so hard that they end up compromising the rest of their week's training. The tradeoff is not between working harder in a given session or working less. It's between working harder and running less throughout the week/month/year, or working *an appropriate amount* and maintaining a higher volume of overall training over the long term.


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On the general point, 20minute 5km is something any averagely fit male under 40 should comfortably be able to train to (how much training will purely depend on pre-start of exercise fitness - and particularly weight) and most should be able to get there with just about any sort of training rather than a carefully laid plan.

Can you back this statement up?

I just looked up a random race in which 213 people of which 10 broke 20 minutes. Perhaps these people all had "carefuly laid out plans" resulting in their inability to break 20 minutes. Had they, instead, followed your "any sort of training" philosphy, they would have been able to achieve this average level of competence you spoke of. ; ^ P

http://www.r2rresults.com/...amp;rid=748&ss=0






(3:55/km vs 3:15/km for me) and 3 1/2 minute intervals at 3:55 with 2 minute recoveries are an easy workout.

-----------------------------Baron Von Speedypants
-----------------------------RunTraining articles here:
http://forum.slowtwitch.com/...runtraining;#1612485
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Re: Run Training - The Program (part 2) [trekhilo] [ In reply to ]
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I'm not sure what you mean by "pace." If you mean how fast should your runs be, there's a pace calculator in the OP.

If you mean, how quickly should you build mileage, the answer is no more than 10% a week. It won't be long before you begin to plateau, at which point it may be much much less than that rate.

If you mean how soon should you be at 6 days a week, the answer is immediately. Take your weekly mileage and divide it by 10. That will be the length of a short run. Medium runs are twice as long, and long runs are 3 times as long.

-----------------------------Baron Von Speedypants
-----------------------------RunTraining articles here:
http://forum.slowtwitch.com/...runtraining;#1612485
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Re: Run Training - The Program (part 2) [gamebofh] [ In reply to ]
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Quote:
My question is: Where does this end?

I've definitely found that I seem to get the best results if I've trained for a distance longer than the race, but
in running I feel there is no way for me to "over distance" for a marathon. I.e. For a HM I can over distance
but are you supposed to train for Ultras in order to run the fastest marathon?



Again, keep in mind that I'm not talking about total volume of training, but rather which training zones you should be training and in what proportions.

No matter what distance you are training for, your current fitness level is like a finite amount of $$$ that you have. You then have to decide where you want to invest it. No matter what you do, you want to invest all of it, and can certainly invest no more than you have. A sprinter would invest all of it in speed work. An ultramarathoner would invest all of it in endurance work. A 5K runner would invest a lot in endurance work, but some in speed, some in threshold, and some in V02max.

Your two extremes are 100% speed and 100% endurance. Some people reach 100% endurance for even a 5 mile race. Many, however, will reach that for the marathon or the ultra marathon.



So to answer your question, yes, an IM is like an open ultra marathon. Some people.....the really good ones like Macca, are going to be in such good shape that they would still do some faster paced training for an IM run. Others, like people who think they will have to walk half of it, are likely better off investing all of thier training in building their endurance.

Assuming these two people were to do an ultra instead of an IM, their training mixes would likely be similar.


The big exception here is that the standalone races, which are longer, will have an added component of an ultra long run. HIM training an marathon training are very similar, but there's no reason to push the long run as much in an HIM as you would in a marathon.






-----------------------------Baron Von Speedypants
-----------------------------RunTraining articles here:
http://forum.slowtwitch.com/...runtraining;#1612485
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Re: Run Training - The Program (part 2) [mjpwooo] [ In reply to ]
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Quote:
2) about the 1:2:3 ratio. What if it was 50%:75%:100%. So, 5 mile easy, 7-8 mile medium, 10 mile long? Just curious, as especially the first several weeks, I 'violated' the 1:2:3 rule for the 50-75-100 (but not in the mileage I gave as an example).

Most of what I write is meant to be ballpark guidelines. If anything, my short runs might be a little of the short side. I think your plan looks fine. The key is to make sure that you are recovering on those short days.

-----------------------------Baron Von Speedypants
-----------------------------RunTraining articles here:
http://forum.slowtwitch.com/...runtraining;#1612485
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Re: Run Training - The Program (part 2) [AndyPants] [ In reply to ]
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Great points!

-----------------------------Baron Von Speedypants
-----------------------------RunTraining articles here:
http://forum.slowtwitch.com/...runtraining;#1612485
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Re: Run Training - The Program (part 2) [BarryP] [ In reply to ]
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Thanks for the detailed reply. That makes sense.

I guess I'm also curious about the volume of training too, but what you have there
makes a lot of sense to me.

-Jot
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Re: Run Training - The Program (part 2) [BarryP] [ In reply to ]
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In Reply To:
Keep in mind that I said "V02max training" and not "trainining at V02max pace." [..] It's quite possible that it is 98% of V02max pace.

Yet 5km pace is often not even 95% of VO2max pace, let alone 98% For elite runners in the sub 14minute range perhaps, but for your 20minute target group, not at all.

Quote:
[on overtraining...] However, their race times at 40 weeks, assuming they are an average athlete, will likely be worse (assuming they managed to avoid injury) as they are now running 120 miles a week, a number which is well above their recovery rate.

So, previously you used overtraining refering to going too hard in single intervals, now you use it in the more normal sense of a very long term effect. It's clearer certainly, but I fail to see how having to walk a bit in a couple of intervals has any relevance to what happens after 40 weeks.


Quote:
One of those myths is that hammering workouts to death week in and week out is going to be the magic ingredient toward stellar race performances.

I've never heard this myth (other than as a strawman) perhaps it's a belief in the US, but it's not a belief anywhere near me, in fact it's generally the reverse, people believe volume alone will reach their goals.

Quote:
I just looked up a random race in which 213 people of which 10 broke 20 minutes.

That's an extremely poor result. At my local run around the park free event, every saturday morning, specifically designed to encourage new runners. It does have the occasional elite athlete running when they're visiting the area and want some PR. Yet still
25% of all male finishers including the 70 year olds have a PB under 20 minutes. This is off road (although other than the first 200m on full on grass the trails are pretty good)

Most people I know running this are not following any plan, they just run, maybe with their running club, but still just running. see http://www.parkrun.org.uk - Bushy Park is my local event.

I guess the US running field is just poor, I can only assume the group upon entering training are very unfit and overweight that it takes longer to attain what is a very average standard. Perhaps such a group does need training. Although why they'd want a plan which talked about 120miles a week I have no idea.
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Re: Run Training - The Program (part 2) [JibberJim] [ In reply to ]
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Quote:
Yet 5km pace is often not even 95% of VO2max pace, let alone 98% For elite runners in the sub 14minute range perhaps, but for your 20minute target group, not at all.

What's your point?



Quote:
......but I fail to see how having to walk a bit in a couple of intervals has any relevance to what happens after 40 weeks.


Then clearly I have failed to convince you. You might try looking elsewhere as you are beyond anything that I am capable of providing here. I could elabroate, but it seems like it would be a waste of my time.


Edit: Sorry, I couldn't help myself. The results I provided you which you referred to as "extremely poor" had 20 minutes at 10th/213 which is upper 4.6%. The results you provided had 20 minutes at 37th/495 which is upper 7.4%. I could have easily picked a different race, like this one:

http://www.r2rresults.com/...php?rid=162&ss=0

where 20 min was 48th/327 which is upper 14.7% and then say something assinine like, "maybe running just really sucks in the UK."


It doesn't really matter if we are talking about 4% or 7% or 15%, 20 minutes is NOT average for a 40 year old man.........which whether it is or not, its a completely irrelavent point. You seem to have come here looking for an argument, and nothing more. This room is for abuse. Arguments are down the hall.

-----------------------------Baron Von Speedypants
-----------------------------RunTraining articles here:
http://forum.slowtwitch.com/...runtraining;#1612485
Last edited by: BarryP: Oct 17, 09 12:50
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Re: Run Training - The Program (part 2) [JibberJim] [ In reply to ]
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I'm actually heading out the door and won't be back until wednesday, but I did want to address this before I left.


It is true that the slower one runs, the further away from V02max 3K-5K pace becomes. In part 3, I provide training guidelines for each distance, but delineate min and max times for each distance and recommend slower athletes to follow the plans for longer distances to take this into consideration. A 32 minute 10K runner and a 32 minute 5K runner are actually running in the zame energy zones in those two races respectively, thus I have them follow the same guidelines.

With respect to interval training, again, the slower one is, the further they get away from V02max. HOWEVER, consequently, the less important V02max is actually to that person for that race, since they will need to pace themselve slower to handle the longer duration of that race.


Nevertheless, I checked daniels VDot tables and found that my recommendation for 5K, reducing to 3K pace leaves everyone in his I pace zone even up to 25 minute 5K runners (which would, of course, include 20 minute 5K runners).

As to what percent of V02max it actually is, I don't really know. I believe it is somewhere between 88% (45 minute race pace) and 98% (11 minute race pace). What I do know is that it is a very effective training zone for certain race goals and has been successful with my athletes and is backed by several authors and coaches that I know.

As I stated in my OP in part 1, I make no pretense to provide the only plan. I am only providing *my* approach. If you have a system that works for you that involves faster interval training, good luck to you. I can't personally comment on it other than I have seen a lot of people fail if doing so without proper guidance, and that experience has shown that it is very easy to get into trouble if training too aggresively.

-----------------------------Baron Von Speedypants
-----------------------------RunTraining articles here:
http://forum.slowtwitch.com/...runtraining;#1612485
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Re: Run Training - The Program (part 2) [JibberJim] [ In reply to ]
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Hey BarryP, thanks for all this. One question, with regard to your prescribed amount of strides (3-4) would you suggest these be done on the 3 non-recovery runs? Thereby allowing the three recovery runs to be just that with no additional stress added?
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Re: Run Training - The Program (part 2) [BarryP] [ In reply to ]
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In Reply To:
20 minutes is NOT average for a 40 year old man.........which whether it is or not, its a completely irrelavent point. You seem to have come here looking for an argument, and nothing more. This room is for abuse. Arguments are down the hall.
that's correct, what you said, about 20 min is not average time for a 40 year old. a more realistic average would be around 22-23 min range. I have trying to go sub 20 but not happening!!

Very well explained writing though. I like your inputs on the run training. You seem to know your shit!!!
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Re: Run Training - The Program (part 2) [NM Rob] [ In reply to ]
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3-4 strides isn't going to cause that much stress at all.

Brian Stover
Accelerate3 Coaching
Insta Twitter PM for info on aero testing, bike fitting or both in April at the tunnel

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Re: Run Training - The Program (part 2) [BarryP] [ In reply to ]
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Barry, terrific stuff. Thanks.

Question: How would you revise, modify or ammend these concepts for experienced AGers age 55+? If at all.
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Re: Run Training - The Program (part 2) [BarryP] [ In reply to ]
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so why don't more athletes focus on the mental aspect of racing?

I did a half-marathon last weekend where I raced (and finished in the top 10% in my Ag - yay!) but I was amazed at how many folks had no idea how to "pysche" them selves up to race (as opposed to participate)... how many didn't have a clue how to prep to race hard...

I dunno, maybe I'm just becoming too elitist...

AP

------------------------
"How bad could it be?" - SimpleS
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Re: Run Training - The Program (part 2) [AndyPants] [ In reply to ]
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I did a half-marathon last weekend where I raced (and finished in the top 10% in my Ag - yay!)

Congrats! Does the result put you on track for your BQ race? For that matter, where are you going to qualify?

I was amazed at how many folks had no idea how to "pysche" them selves up to race (as opposed to participate)...

I agree. Marathon is way to hard not to try hard. Then again, at my end of the talent pool I wouldn't be all that thrilled to be sharing a corral with some hyper-hardcore git either.
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Re: Run Training - The Program (part 2) [Tri N OC] [ In reply to ]
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Yep, it definitely does put me on track - Mr McMillan says I should be ready now, but I want to have a little more margin. I'm now aiming for Austin in Feb for the actual attempt...

It's that balance between under and overarousal - can't be too hyper or you get a punch in the back of the head ;-)

Off to the Octoberfest BrewskiDawdle this morning (5k) - time to see what kind of running shape Khai's in ;-)

AP

------------------------
"How bad could it be?" - SimpleS
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Re: Run Training - The Program (part 2) [BarryP] [ In reply to ]
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Barry -

Couple questions - I ran a lot (for me) last winter with a couple months of 50 miles/wk. Unfortunately I developed patellar tendonosis/opathy/itis. I kept running but it persisted so I finally gave up and I'm taking a few months off to rehab. I'll be doing some quad strengthening/stretching/eccentric squats....so my questions (assuming my knee feels good):

1) Do you still start with 6 runs/week?
2) How do you pick a volume per week to start?
3) Anything else you'd change?
4) Any other tips with patellar tendonitis? I've asked world class runners, world class running coaches, orthopedists, and sports med guys....and my conclusion is that nobody knows what causes it and how to treat it. My impression was that really good runners don't get it much....must be a disease of wanna-be runners.

Thanks,

Dave
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Re: Run Training - The Program (part 2) [BarryP] [ In reply to ]
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Awesome, Barry.

Why are striders done at the *end* of a run?

I was taught to do them at the beginning of a run (after a short warm-up). The idea (as I was taught) was that the efficiency and good form induced by the striders, would help encourage good form for the remainder of that run.

Thanks.
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Re: Run Training - The Program (part 2) [BarryP] [ In reply to ]
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Don't leave us hangin'! Where's part 3?
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Re: Run Training - The Program (part 2) [Oleander] [ In reply to ]
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In Reply To:
Awesome, Barry.

Why are striders done at the *end* of a run?

I was taught to do them at the beginning of a run (after a short warm-up). The idea (as I was taught) was that the efficiency and good form induced by the striders, would help encourage good form for the remainder of that run.

Thanks.
I would *assume* (:D) that it's done for the same reason that our coach always had us finish our runs up tempo. Theory being that finishing runs with striders, up tempo, whatever, you get used to making your body step up the effort when tired. Not sure how valid it is. :D

John



Top notch coaching: Francois and Accelerate3 | Follow on Twitter: LifetimeAthlete |
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Re: Run Training - The Program (part 2) [BarryP] [ In reply to ]
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Barry,
Looking forward to Part 3.
What are your thoughts on running on a treadmill? Not for all of the runs. Long Run outdoors, but maybe 50% of the other runs on a treadmill. What do you recommend for incline (assuming the treadmill run is not meant to be a "hill" session). Are speed days okay on a treadmill?
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Re: Run Training - The Program (part 2) [timboricki] [ In reply to ]
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Not BarryP but I've have extensive experience running on the treadmill.

Short answer: YES

Long answer see below:

I used to do >50% of my running for 9-10 months of the year on the treadmill. Never stopped me from out running the majority of the folks in races. In fact you can use it to your advantage over people who run outdoors.

The things I recommend instead of jacking up the elevation to = outside running, increase the speed. All increasing the incline does is increase the workload which is the same thing that happens when you increase the speed. If the goal is to run faster, well then why not just run faster on the treadmill instead of running up some ridiculous 4% hill?

For long runs, there is no slacking off the pace in the middle. Many people tend to have long runs that slow in the middle, it's not going to happen on the treadmill. I will admit 80-100min on the treadmill can get boring, but just create a long main set to do. 2 that I like are a series of 4-10 hill repeats of .62miles long + .13 flat (for a total of .75miles per repeat) or some sort of threshold set of 5-20 min long repeats.

For speed days once you figure out what what is the = speed for what you do outside, it's easy to control. For me I find that indoors I run about :05-:07 per mile faster then outdoors. If my threshold pace is 5:50 outside, then I run 5:45-5:40 indoors. The great thing about the treadmill is you can control the workout. Want to run quarters at 1;15 pace, you won't get a workout that has you running @ 1:17, 1:14, 1:16, you get 1:15, 1;15 etc. Mile repeats at x:xx? Highly controllable and repeatable.

It's not a question of running inside vs running outside. It's a question of doing the work in your runs to get faster.

Indoors or out, if you don't run the miles and quality, you don't get faster.

Brian Stover
Accelerate3 Coaching
Insta Twitter PM for info on aero testing, bike fitting or both in April at the tunnel

Last edited by: desert dude: Oct 21, 09 8:52
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Re: Run Training - The Program (part 2) [Oleander] [ In reply to ]
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I try to be as open and honest as I can. It's mainly done that way because that's how my last two coaches did it. ; ^ P


Though approaching it with an open mind, it would be best to do them after you are warmed up, so I would at least give it a warmup period before attemting them (especially if you are old!).

-----------------------------Baron Von Speedypants
-----------------------------RunTraining articles here:
http://forum.slowtwitch.com/...runtraining;#1612485
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Re: Run Training - The Program (part 2) [NM Rob] [ In reply to ]
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Quote:
Hey BarryP, thanks for all this. One question, with regard to your prescribed amount of strides (3-4) would you suggest these be done on the 3 non-recovery runs? Thereby allowing the three recovery runs to be just that with no additional stress added?

I do them when I feel good. Sometimes that's on a hard day. Sometimes its on a recovery day. I do agree that if your recovery day is rough, then yes, you need the recovery.

What's most important is that you do them regularly, however that happens.

-----------------------------Baron Von Speedypants
-----------------------------RunTraining articles here:
http://forum.slowtwitch.com/...runtraining;#1612485
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Re: Run Training - The Program (part 2) [desert dude] [ In reply to ]
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In Reply To:
Not BarryP but I've have extensive experience running on the treadmill.

Short answer: YES

Long answer see below:

I used to do >50% of my running for 9-10 months of the year on the treadmill. Never stopped me from out running the majority of the folks in races. In fact you can use it to your advantage over people who run outdoors.

The things I recommend instead of jacking up the elevation to = outside running, increase the speed. All increasing the incline does is increase the workload which is the same thing that happens when you increase the speed. If the goal is to run faster, well then why not just run faster on the treadmill instead of running up some ridiculous 4% hill?

For long runs, there is no slacking off the pace in the middle. Many people tend to have long runs that slow in the middle, it's not going to happen on the treadmill. I will admit 80-100min on the treadmill can get boring, but just create a long main set to do. 2 that I like are a series of 4-10 hill repeats of .62miles long + .13 flat (for a total of .75miles per repeat) or some sort of threshold set of 5-20 min long repeats.

For speed days once you figure out what what is the = speed for what you do outside, it's easy to control. For me I find that indoors I run about :05-:07 per mile faster then outdoors. If my threshold pace is 5:50 outside, then I run 5:45-5:40 indoors. The great thing about the treadmill is you can control the workout. Want to run quarters at 1;15 pace, you won't get a workout that has you running @ 1:17, 1:14, 1:16, you get 1:15, 1;15 etc. Mile repeats at x:xx? Highly controllable and repeatable.

It's not a question of running inside vs running outside. It's a question of doing the work in your runs to get faster.

Indoors or out, if you don't run the miles and quality, you don't get faster.

Thanks for this Brian.

https://www.miles4matt.run/
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Re: Run Training - The Program (part 2) [pdxjohn] [ In reply to ]
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Quote:
Barry, terrific stuff. Thanks.

Question: How would you revise, modify or ammend these concepts for experienced AGers age 55+? If at all.

Unfortunately I don't know much about the changes as one ages (though I'm starting to learn as I age!!!). The fundamentals are the same. In general, you just have to take care of yourself.

One myth I can dispell is that older people shouldn't run every day. People are under the misconception that running 6 days a week is harder. This is completely false. Running 3 times a week is harder, given the same total weekly volume. If you are running 15 miles a week by doing three 5 milers, I have you doing 3 1.5 milers, 2 3 milers, and a 5 miler. That will be the easier training load....running 5 once a week, instead of 3 times a week.

-----------------------------Baron Von Speedypants
-----------------------------RunTraining articles here:
http://forum.slowtwitch.com/...runtraining;#1612485
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Re: Run Training - The Program (part 2) [daveinmammoth] [ In reply to ]
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Quote:
1) Do you still start with 6 runs/week?
2) How do you pick a volume per week to start?
3) Anything else you'd change?
4) Any other tips with patellar tendonitis? I've asked world class runners, world class running coaches, orthopedists, and sports med guys....and my conclusion is that nobody knows what causes it and how to treat it. My impression was that really good runners don't get it much....must be a disease of wanna-be runners.

1) yes.

2) it depends on what kind of shape you are in. Terrible shape? 5, 10, and 15 minute runs (5, 10, 5, 10, 5, 0, 15) is a good start. If it seems way too easy, then you can always increase it a little faster than usual. The big thing that Desert Dude has to remind me is to think long term. Add 5 minutes to the short runs each week (which is very aggressive) and you are at 25, 50, 25, 50, 25, 1:15 in a month. The point is, if you start out too easy, you'll eventually get to a challenging level. If you start out too hard......well.....you can start out easy again in a few months when you are back where you started. ; ^ P

3) Nope.

4) Unfortunately I'm not of much help.

-----------------------------Baron Von Speedypants
-----------------------------RunTraining articles here:
http://forum.slowtwitch.com/...runtraining;#1612485
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Re: Run Training - The Program (part 2) [desert dude] [ In reply to ]
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Quote:
Not BarryP but I've have extensive experience running on the treadmill.

What he said.

-----------------------------Baron Von Speedypants
-----------------------------RunTraining articles here:
http://forum.slowtwitch.com/...runtraining;#1612485
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Re: Run Training - The Program (part 2) [BarryP] [ In reply to ]
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Barry,

I thought of a couple f/u questions for you. I'm starting with short =10 min, medium = 20, long = 30. Mcmillan (?sp) calculator asks you for a race and a time - Do you use your best recent race or a rough estimate of what I could run today? I haven't run for 2+ months.

Then for "base" phase 1 - you say all at easy pace. Easy pace is faster than recover pace or long pace (well they all start the same but recovery and long are longer ranges with a slower slow end....). Do I run all my runs as easy pace or some at recovery/long? I know to make it feel "easy" and adjust and all - just wondering....

Thanks,

Dave
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Re: Run Training - The Program (part 2) [daveinmammoth] [ In reply to ]
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train based upon the current shape you are in. If you have not run in 2 months your race times from then are worthless now.

When he says easy, i think he is talking about a pace you can sustain day in day out for your runs, something that doesn't make you wake up and think wtf was I thinking during yesterdays run.

Why should easy pace be faster then long run pace?

Since you know how to make it easy, run easy.

When you are starting back, the consistency of running day after day far outweighs being a hero on day 1 then logging zero's on days 2 & 3.

Brian Stover
Accelerate3 Coaching
Insta Twitter PM for info on aero testing, bike fitting or both in April at the tunnel

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Re: Run Training - The Program (part 2) [desert dude] [ In reply to ]
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Brian this is for you or anyone that has used McMillan calc before....

My paces to start Barry's program are as follows:
Recovery Jogs 8:12-8:42
Long Runs 7:12-8:12
Easy Runs 7:12-7:42

For the short/med/long setup I would use the "easy runs" pace for the medium runs correct?

__________________________
Paul
AmateurEndurance.com
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Re: Run Training - The Program (part 2) [sandiegopj] [ In reply to ]
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yes.
The majority of your running imo should be easy pace. I'm familiar with mcmillian but admit I have not spent a ton of time on there playing with the calculator.

That being said, never underestimate how fast you can get off of easy running.

Brian Stover
Accelerate3 Coaching
Insta Twitter PM for info on aero testing, bike fitting or both in April at the tunnel

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Re: Run Training - The Program (part 2) [daveinmammoth] [ In reply to ]
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I'd recommend rest immediately. I beat mine up for a while - hard to recall but I think I continued to run for about a year. I then took several months off but recurred quickly. I think I tried that twice. Finally stopped training for about 2 years I think. I then started training again without recurrence. I never did formal PT. I tried a program of the knee bends on a slanted board on my own - can't recall how long I tried that but not too long....didn't seem to help. I think my major problem was that I continued to run initially on it. Maybe if I stopped immediately and did a 2-3 month program, i could have gotten through it......hard to know. It was the hardest injury I've had to get through....shin splints, plantar fasciitis, weird outer foot things, hip things have all been a few weeks to 2-3 months at most to recover.

I tried the patellar knee straps - didn't like those.

Dave
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