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Re: Run Training - The Program (part 2) [BarryP] [ In reply to ]
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In other words, in order to be properly trained to run the 5K segment of a sprint triathlon, you should train to be in 10K stand alone racing shape. For a Half Ironman, you want to be in marathon shape.

Thank you for the great info Barry... I'm happy to know that my deductive reasoning skills are working. After 5 years of trying to get faster (and only minimally doing so), I am approaching next year with the above approach. My big goal races for 2010 are Olympic Distance, but I am training through the winter to run fast half-mary's using Daniels'. I believe it will work well, but I guess we'll see.

Tony
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Re: Run Training - The Program (part 2) [JibberJim] [ In reply to ]
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Fantastic stuff Barry. Thanks.
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Re: Run Training - The Program (part 2) [BarryP] [ In reply to ]
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In other words, in order to be properly trained to run the 5K segment of a sprint triathlon, you should train to be in 10K stand alone racing shape. For a Half Ironman, you want to be in marathon shape.

My question is: Where does this end?

I've definitely found that I seem to get the best results if I've trained for a distance longer than the race, but
in running I feel there is no way for me to "over distance" for a marathon. I.e. For a HM I can over distance
but are you supposed to train for Ultras in order to run the fastest marathon?

-Jot




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Re: Run Training - The Program (part 2) [navytriathlete] [ In reply to ]
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Barry, two things...

1) I've got my Oly tomorrow. Thanks for the PM guidance. Hoping, with 4 months of running, that I'll fire off a 42' 10K tomorrow. I'd be thrilled, considering that I was running 6 miles (1M/day x 6 days) 22 weeks ago, and am at ~30 miles easily/week, with some relatively hard efforts thrown in there.

2) about the 1:2:3 ratio. What if it was 50%:75%:100%. So, 5 mile easy, 7-8 mile medium, 10 mile long? Just curious, as especially the first several weeks, I 'violated' the 1:2:3 rule for the 50-75-100 (but not in the mileage I gave as an example).

Thanks, and my success tomorrow (or complete flamout!!!) is due, in no small part, to your help.

Mike
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Re: Run Training - The Program (part 2) [BarryP] [ In reply to ]
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Great post Barry...and timely for me as I'm working on my BQ plan ;-)

I'm glad you pointed out the typical "I want to do well at A and at B where A and B are completely different beasts" scenario that are the jist of so many posts on ST... N=1, but I have always found my performance improves far more when I am focused on one goal. Perhaps it's the ability to focus not only on training but also on the race itself that leads to achieving my racing goals. I often think triathletes in particular (as compared to runners or cyclists) are a bit too ADD/underfocused/distracted by the nature of multisport, so that when confronted with trying to achieve a single-sport goal, the triathlete is a bit handicapped compared to the single-disciplined athlete.

When I do a long block of single-sport training (my current running block as an example), I spend the first weeks trying to regain the ability to focus. Focus on the goal, focus on and during each session, focus on recovery. Once I get that focus back, then pushing hard during intervals, or hills, or threshold sessions is achievable. Likewise, having increased confidence to do an easy, recovery run that actually is an easy run returns... I am far less likely to feel I have to man-up and go hard all the time.

I am often surprised at how many triathletes do little to no mental training, including realistic goal setting, and yet expect great results. If you keep doing things the same way, why do you expect different results?

Keep 'em coming, Barry.


AP

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"How bad could it be?" - SimpleS
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Re: Run Training - The Program (part 2) [LarryP] [ In reply to ]
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You do realize substrate utilization is dependent upon intensity don't you?

Of course vo2 workouts will increase the % of cho vs fat utilized....for that workout.

But in the grand scheme of things you really think doing a few vo2 sessions will increase your marathon intensity so much that your RER is going to skew that much?

Brian Stover
Accelerate3 Coaching
Insta Twitter Bike fitting & Aero testing April 20 & 21 at A2 wind tunnel

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Re: Run Training - The Program (part 2) [JibberJim] [ In reply to ]
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How is 5km or even 3km pace a VO2max training effort? 5km pace is nowhere near a VO2max effort.

Keep in mind that I said "V02max training" and not "trainining at V02max pace." I actually sent Jack Daniels an email about this a while ago and got a response. His contention was that 11 minutes a mile is, if I remember correctly, V02max pace. It's quite possible that it is 98% of V02max pace.

Nevertheless, the purpose of the interval sessions are to improve performance.....nothing more, nothing less. Even at 45 minute race pace, which is....I think....something in the range of 88% of V02max, you are still siginificantly stimulating improvements in V02max.

There is some benefit to training faster for certain people, for certain work/rest intervals, to prepare for certain race distances. However, I have found that the cosequences of running this type of workout any faster outweigh the benefits for most people, especially if not under the guidance of a coach.


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and 3 1/2 minute intervals at 3:55 with 2 minute recoveries are an easy workout.

I find that quite interesting as I've seen hoards of people at the University of Delaware adult track practice do exactly the same workout and finish gasping for air. I wouldn't be able to comment any further without actually seeing you do the workout, starting at 5K pace for your first 1,000m and finishing at 3K pace on your 5th or 6th 1,000m and actually observing it being "easy."


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Could you define your use of the term "over training" here?

Racing times can decrease because one doesn't train enough (undertraining) or because they train too hard (overtraining). An example would be a person who adds 3 miles a week to their training plan. Starting from zero, they will see race performances improve over the weeks. Their fitness at 10 weeks (30 miles) will likely be greater than their fiteness during their 3 mile week. However, their race times at 40 weeks, assuming they are an average athlete, will likely be worse (assuming they managed to avoid injury) as they are now running 120 miles a week, a number which is well above their recovery rate.


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Very overloaded term, and I think a suggestion that you can become overtrained simply by doing the odd interval session such that you have to take a short walk break at the end of each interval would lead to it isn't too normal.

Normal defined by what? What the average person who doesn't know what they are doing thinks? What is "normal" is usualy bad training conventions based off of locker room myths and misconceptions of training fundamentals.

One of those myths is that hammering workouts to death week in and week out is going to be the magic ingredient toward stellar race performances. That simply isn't true, and more often than not, it leads to early plateaus and inhibits long term improvements.

One of my favorite quotes comes from a training partner of mine: "If you think this workout is too easy, you should try and complete it after a 120 mile week." That's the problem I see. People hammer away at workouts so hard that they end up compromising the rest of their week's training. The tradeoff is not between working harder in a given session or working less. It's between working harder and running less throughout the week/month/year, or working *an appropriate amount* and maintaining a higher volume of overall training over the long term.


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On the general point, 20minute 5km is something any averagely fit male under 40 should comfortably be able to train to (how much training will purely depend on pre-start of exercise fitness - and particularly weight) and most should be able to get there with just about any sort of training rather than a carefully laid plan.

Can you back this statement up?

I just looked up a random race in which 213 people of which 10 broke 20 minutes. Perhaps these people all had "carefuly laid out plans" resulting in their inability to break 20 minutes. Had they, instead, followed your "any sort of training" philosphy, they would have been able to achieve this average level of competence you spoke of. ; ^ P

http://www.r2rresults.com/...amp;rid=748&ss=0






(3:55/km vs 3:15/km for me) and 3 1/2 minute intervals at 3:55 with 2 minute recoveries are an easy workout.

-----------------------------Baron Von Speedypants
-----------------------------RunTraining articles here:
http://forum.slowtwitch.com/...runtraining;#1612485
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Re: Run Training - The Program (part 2) [trekhilo] [ In reply to ]
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I'm not sure what you mean by "pace." If you mean how fast should your runs be, there's a pace calculator in the OP.

If you mean, how quickly should you build mileage, the answer is no more than 10% a week. It won't be long before you begin to plateau, at which point it may be much much less than that rate.

If you mean how soon should you be at 6 days a week, the answer is immediately. Take your weekly mileage and divide it by 10. That will be the length of a short run. Medium runs are twice as long, and long runs are 3 times as long.

-----------------------------Baron Von Speedypants
-----------------------------RunTraining articles here:
http://forum.slowtwitch.com/...runtraining;#1612485
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Re: Run Training - The Program (part 2) [gamebofh] [ In reply to ]
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My question is: Where does this end?

I've definitely found that I seem to get the best results if I've trained for a distance longer than the race, but
in running I feel there is no way for me to "over distance" for a marathon. I.e. For a HM I can over distance
but are you supposed to train for Ultras in order to run the fastest marathon?



Again, keep in mind that I'm not talking about total volume of training, but rather which training zones you should be training and in what proportions.

No matter what distance you are training for, your current fitness level is like a finite amount of $$$ that you have. You then have to decide where you want to invest it. No matter what you do, you want to invest all of it, and can certainly invest no more than you have. A sprinter would invest all of it in speed work. An ultramarathoner would invest all of it in endurance work. A 5K runner would invest a lot in endurance work, but some in speed, some in threshold, and some in V02max.

Your two extremes are 100% speed and 100% endurance. Some people reach 100% endurance for even a 5 mile race. Many, however, will reach that for the marathon or the ultra marathon.



So to answer your question, yes, an IM is like an open ultra marathon. Some people.....the really good ones like Macca, are going to be in such good shape that they would still do some faster paced training for an IM run. Others, like people who think they will have to walk half of it, are likely better off investing all of thier training in building their endurance.

Assuming these two people were to do an ultra instead of an IM, their training mixes would likely be similar.


The big exception here is that the standalone races, which are longer, will have an added component of an ultra long run. HIM training an marathon training are very similar, but there's no reason to push the long run as much in an HIM as you would in a marathon.






-----------------------------Baron Von Speedypants
-----------------------------RunTraining articles here:
http://forum.slowtwitch.com/...runtraining;#1612485
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Re: Run Training - The Program (part 2) [mjpwooo] [ In reply to ]
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2) about the 1:2:3 ratio. What if it was 50%:75%:100%. So, 5 mile easy, 7-8 mile medium, 10 mile long? Just curious, as especially the first several weeks, I 'violated' the 1:2:3 rule for the 50-75-100 (but not in the mileage I gave as an example).

Most of what I write is meant to be ballpark guidelines. If anything, my short runs might be a little of the short side. I think your plan looks fine. The key is to make sure that you are recovering on those short days.

-----------------------------Baron Von Speedypants
-----------------------------RunTraining articles here:
http://forum.slowtwitch.com/...runtraining;#1612485
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Re: Run Training - The Program (part 2) [AndyPants] [ In reply to ]
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Great points!

-----------------------------Baron Von Speedypants
-----------------------------RunTraining articles here:
http://forum.slowtwitch.com/...runtraining;#1612485
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Re: Run Training - The Program (part 2) [BarryP] [ In reply to ]
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Thanks for the detailed reply. That makes sense.

I guess I'm also curious about the volume of training too, but what you have there
makes a lot of sense to me.

-Jot
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Re: Run Training - The Program (part 2) [BarryP] [ In reply to ]
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Keep in mind that I said "V02max training" and not "trainining at V02max pace." [..] It's quite possible that it is 98% of V02max pace.

Yet 5km pace is often not even 95% of VO2max pace, let alone 98% For elite runners in the sub 14minute range perhaps, but for your 20minute target group, not at all.

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[on overtraining...] However, their race times at 40 weeks, assuming they are an average athlete, will likely be worse (assuming they managed to avoid injury) as they are now running 120 miles a week, a number which is well above their recovery rate.

So, previously you used overtraining refering to going too hard in single intervals, now you use it in the more normal sense of a very long term effect. It's clearer certainly, but I fail to see how having to walk a bit in a couple of intervals has any relevance to what happens after 40 weeks.


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One of those myths is that hammering workouts to death week in and week out is going to be the magic ingredient toward stellar race performances.

I've never heard this myth (other than as a strawman) perhaps it's a belief in the US, but it's not a belief anywhere near me, in fact it's generally the reverse, people believe volume alone will reach their goals.

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I just looked up a random race in which 213 people of which 10 broke 20 minutes.

That's an extremely poor result. At my local run around the park free event, every saturday morning, specifically designed to encourage new runners. It does have the occasional elite athlete running when they're visiting the area and want some PR. Yet still
25% of all male finishers including the 70 year olds have a PB under 20 minutes. This is off road (although other than the first 200m on full on grass the trails are pretty good)

Most people I know running this are not following any plan, they just run, maybe with their running club, but still just running. see http://www.parkrun.org.uk - Bushy Park is my local event.

I guess the US running field is just poor, I can only assume the group upon entering training are very unfit and overweight that it takes longer to attain what is a very average standard. Perhaps such a group does need training. Although why they'd want a plan which talked about 120miles a week I have no idea.
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Re: Run Training - The Program (part 2) [JibberJim] [ In reply to ]
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Yet 5km pace is often not even 95% of VO2max pace, let alone 98% For elite runners in the sub 14minute range perhaps, but for your 20minute target group, not at all.

What's your point?



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......but I fail to see how having to walk a bit in a couple of intervals has any relevance to what happens after 40 weeks.


Then clearly I have failed to convince you. You might try looking elsewhere as you are beyond anything that I am capable of providing here. I could elabroate, but it seems like it would be a waste of my time.


Edit: Sorry, I couldn't help myself. The results I provided you which you referred to as "extremely poor" had 20 minutes at 10th/213 which is upper 4.6%. The results you provided had 20 minutes at 37th/495 which is upper 7.4%. I could have easily picked a different race, like this one:

http://www.r2rresults.com/...php?rid=162&ss=0

where 20 min was 48th/327 which is upper 14.7% and then say something assinine like, "maybe running just really sucks in the UK."


It doesn't really matter if we are talking about 4% or 7% or 15%, 20 minutes is NOT average for a 40 year old man.........which whether it is or not, its a completely irrelavent point. You seem to have come here looking for an argument, and nothing more. This room is for abuse. Arguments are down the hall.

-----------------------------Baron Von Speedypants
-----------------------------RunTraining articles here:
http://forum.slowtwitch.com/...runtraining;#1612485
Last edited by: BarryP: Oct 17, 09 12:50
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Re: Run Training - The Program (part 2) [JibberJim] [ In reply to ]
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I'm actually heading out the door and won't be back until wednesday, but I did want to address this before I left.


It is true that the slower one runs, the further away from V02max 3K-5K pace becomes. In part 3, I provide training guidelines for each distance, but delineate min and max times for each distance and recommend slower athletes to follow the plans for longer distances to take this into consideration. A 32 minute 10K runner and a 32 minute 5K runner are actually running in the zame energy zones in those two races respectively, thus I have them follow the same guidelines.

With respect to interval training, again, the slower one is, the further they get away from V02max. HOWEVER, consequently, the less important V02max is actually to that person for that race, since they will need to pace themselve slower to handle the longer duration of that race.


Nevertheless, I checked daniels VDot tables and found that my recommendation for 5K, reducing to 3K pace leaves everyone in his I pace zone even up to 25 minute 5K runners (which would, of course, include 20 minute 5K runners).

As to what percent of V02max it actually is, I don't really know. I believe it is somewhere between 88% (45 minute race pace) and 98% (11 minute race pace). What I do know is that it is a very effective training zone for certain race goals and has been successful with my athletes and is backed by several authors and coaches that I know.

As I stated in my OP in part 1, I make no pretense to provide the only plan. I am only providing *my* approach. If you have a system that works for you that involves faster interval training, good luck to you. I can't personally comment on it other than I have seen a lot of people fail if doing so without proper guidance, and that experience has shown that it is very easy to get into trouble if training too aggresively.

-----------------------------Baron Von Speedypants
-----------------------------RunTraining articles here:
http://forum.slowtwitch.com/...runtraining;#1612485
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Re: Run Training - The Program (part 2) [JibberJim] [ In reply to ]
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Hey BarryP, thanks for all this. One question, with regard to your prescribed amount of strides (3-4) would you suggest these be done on the 3 non-recovery runs? Thereby allowing the three recovery runs to be just that with no additional stress added?
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Re: Run Training - The Program (part 2) [BarryP] [ In reply to ]
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In Reply To:
20 minutes is NOT average for a 40 year old man.........which whether it is or not, its a completely irrelavent point. You seem to have come here looking for an argument, and nothing more. This room is for abuse. Arguments are down the hall.
that's correct, what you said, about 20 min is not average time for a 40 year old. a more realistic average would be around 22-23 min range. I have trying to go sub 20 but not happening!!

Very well explained writing though. I like your inputs on the run training. You seem to know your shit!!!
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Re: Run Training - The Program (part 2) [NM Rob] [ In reply to ]
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3-4 strides isn't going to cause that much stress at all.

Brian Stover
Accelerate3 Coaching
Insta Twitter Bike fitting & Aero testing April 20 & 21 at A2 wind tunnel

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Re: Run Training - The Program (part 2) [BarryP] [ In reply to ]
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Barry, terrific stuff. Thanks.

Question: How would you revise, modify or ammend these concepts for experienced AGers age 55+? If at all.
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Re: Run Training - The Program (part 2) [BarryP] [ In reply to ]
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so why don't more athletes focus on the mental aspect of racing?

I did a half-marathon last weekend where I raced (and finished in the top 10% in my Ag - yay!) but I was amazed at how many folks had no idea how to "pysche" them selves up to race (as opposed to participate)... how many didn't have a clue how to prep to race hard...

I dunno, maybe I'm just becoming too elitist...

AP

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"How bad could it be?" - SimpleS
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Re: Run Training - The Program (part 2) [AndyPants] [ In reply to ]
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I did a half-marathon last weekend where I raced (and finished in the top 10% in my Ag - yay!)

Congrats! Does the result put you on track for your BQ race? For that matter, where are you going to qualify?

I was amazed at how many folks had no idea how to "pysche" them selves up to race (as opposed to participate)...

I agree. Marathon is way to hard not to try hard. Then again, at my end of the talent pool I wouldn't be all that thrilled to be sharing a corral with some hyper-hardcore git either.
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Re: Run Training - The Program (part 2) [Tri N OC] [ In reply to ]
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Yep, it definitely does put me on track - Mr McMillan says I should be ready now, but I want to have a little more margin. I'm now aiming for Austin in Feb for the actual attempt...

It's that balance between under and overarousal - can't be too hyper or you get a punch in the back of the head ;-)

Off to the Octoberfest BrewskiDawdle this morning (5k) - time to see what kind of running shape Khai's in ;-)

AP

------------------------
"How bad could it be?" - SimpleS
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Re: Run Training - The Program (part 2) [BarryP] [ In reply to ]
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Barry -

Couple questions - I ran a lot (for me) last winter with a couple months of 50 miles/wk. Unfortunately I developed patellar tendonosis/opathy/itis. I kept running but it persisted so I finally gave up and I'm taking a few months off to rehab. I'll be doing some quad strengthening/stretching/eccentric squats....so my questions (assuming my knee feels good):

1) Do you still start with 6 runs/week?
2) How do you pick a volume per week to start?
3) Anything else you'd change?
4) Any other tips with patellar tendonitis? I've asked world class runners, world class running coaches, orthopedists, and sports med guys....and my conclusion is that nobody knows what causes it and how to treat it. My impression was that really good runners don't get it much....must be a disease of wanna-be runners.

Thanks,

Dave
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Re: Run Training - The Program (part 2) [BarryP] [ In reply to ]
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Awesome, Barry.

Why are striders done at the *end* of a run?

I was taught to do them at the beginning of a run (after a short warm-up). The idea (as I was taught) was that the efficiency and good form induced by the striders, would help encourage good form for the remainder of that run.

Thanks.
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Re: Run Training - The Program (part 2) [BarryP] [ In reply to ]
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Don't leave us hangin'! Where's part 3?
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