My wife and I lived paycheck to paycheck for far too long, and absolutely, we could have cut if we had tried hard enough. But we weren't disciplined to say "no" to ourselves, until we finally saw the light and made some big changes in our spending habits. Would love to have the first 10 years of my working life back in that arena, but thankfully we made the changes when we did. And, truth be told, it really wasn't that painful to live within our means and finally start saving money, just discipline to not buy things we really didn't need.

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___________________________________________________
Taco cat spelled backwards is....taco cat.

Nobody making over $100,000 a year has to have finances that tight. They just choose to spend.

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How does Danny Hart sit down with balls that big?

I worked a hail claim for a couple that had a $5000 deductible. In conversation with them and later their contractor, she earned about $250k a year, and he was an engineer. They didn't have enough money to pay for their deductible. She drove a BMW and their children went to a private school, but they couldn't afford to get their home repaired.

the stat i hear the most often is 40% of families can't cover a $400 emergency

it's from a study by the Fed Reserve back in 2016. I've also heard that 50% of all people live paycheck-to-paycheck

at the upper end, one'd figure that the stories are more anecdotal than they are representative

Why do you hate America?

This concept is mind boggling and scary. It doesn't take much to avoid living paycheck to paycheck if you're making that kind of money. You don't have to build a complex monthly budget or scrimp and save. You just have to not spend stupidly.

I am by no means a particularly financially savvy guy, and I frequently think I should be doing more with my money, but I manage to put money into savings every month, make sure my credit cards are paid off, etc, and never have to worry about whether my paycheck will cover my bills. And this is with two mortgages, and military pay (albeit an officer's pay). It's not like I'm rolling in riches, Scrooge McDuck style.

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Slowguy

(insert pithy phrase here...)

Because its like living in the Veggie Tales Stuff Mart episode.



Of course that leads to mental health issues.

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Just Triing
Triathlete since 9:56:39 AM EST Aug 20, 2006.
Be kind English is my 2nd language. My primary language is Dave it's a unique evolution of English.

How many of those care caused by health care bills? Health care is the biggest cause of bankruptcies, so I would not be shocked if some people have avoided bankruptcy, but are barely staying above water.

I don’t know how people do it. My cousin and her husband have come close to losing their home a couple of times. Have almost no equity in it despite owning it for 30 some years and now he’s driving a big new looking F250.

He fell off the roof last summer cleaning gutters and broke his ankle amongst other injuries. Surprised I didn’t hear that almost pushed them over the edge.

I don't have much sympathy for those making over $100k who live paycheck to paycheck.

But back in the day, I wasn't getting paid a lot as a 2Lt in the USAF. I married Ms. Tostig while I was going through F-4 RTU, and that entailed some extra expenses (1st month's rent, cleaning deposit, AT&T phone deposit, some furniture, dishes, pots and pans, etc.) while setting up an apartment in Victorville, CA. Two months later, it was time to move to Las Vegas. More deposits (up front cash) to be made while still waiting for the Victorville deposits to be refunded. No financial help from mom and dad, not because they were jerks, but 22-year olds were expected to support themselves back then. Ms. Tostig and I had a week or so to wait until payday (the USAF paid us at the beginning of each month and again on the 15th). Must have had less than $100 in the checking account, and this was before anyone (base commissary or local grocery stores) would take plastic for groceries. We got by on peanut butter and butter sandwiches for a week.

Things got much better after that, but it's no fun to be in that situation.

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"Human existence is based upon two pillars: Compassion and knowledge. Compassion without knowledge is ineffective; Knowledge without compassion is inhuman." Victor Weisskopf.

About ten years ago, I was reading a library book when someone's bank statement fell out. Nobody I knew (I forget if their name was even on it...) but anyway, they had a line of credit with about $180k owing on it, and they were evidently making *minimum* payments on it as well as on their credit card. So they might be scrimping by on actual day to day expenses, but whatever they had bought in the past had put them in a world of hurt relative to the bank, and the bank was taking all their money, month after month.

I think that generally, the currently low interest rates (at least in Canada and the US), and the banks' willingness to extend credit, have put many people into a really bad situation where they splurged to get stuff (including maybe a house bigger or more expensive than they could really afford) and now they can't get out of the interest trap. It's worse for anyone that got hooked by a paycheck lender for any reason... it floors me that those loan sharks are allowed to have a legitimate store front and effectively charge about 2400% interest.

What is needed is some education in high school on how credit cards and any other financing really works - evidently too many young kids think it's free money until it's too late.

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Less is more.

I agree with you completely that there should be a class in high school on personal finance. I think many of the poor in the U.S. are poor because they make terrible decisions with their money. I'm not blaming them because it's likely that their parents were also made terrible financial decisions.

I just wonder what there expenses really are and if there is not places they could cut they just don't want to.


I lived on a bike and in a tent for a few years and then in a 3rd world country so really have a good grasp of what you "need" verses what you "want". As long as those are mixed up then there will always be people who live paycheck to paycheck.


Most people now "need" the latest smart phone, television, cable, Netflix or have to go to a coffee shop each day and those small things alone can add up to significant savings in a year. Kids are learning at a young age that they need a phone and computer to keep up with their classmates so I would guess the problem will get much worse in the years ahead.

Conversation I had with an old coworker who had serious money troubles. Both families were making around $60K at the time (8 years ago).

"My brother and his wife make what you do. Here's how they manage their budget:

They have a used car and a really old used car. You bought two new cars this year.
They have a small flat screen TV that was a gift. You bought a large flat screen for $1500.
They had a computer built for $300. When your wife's computer broke, you gave her your $2000 Macbook and bought a new $2500 macbook.
They have flip phones. You buy a new Iphone whenever a new model comes out with 5 more pixels on the camera.
They don't have any expensive non essentials. You tried to save money on gas by spending $5K on a scooter."

A couple of years later I saw on facebook that he traded his scooter in and bought a Harley and had a concrete basketball court poured into his back yard.


Over spending is a disease that most Americans are afflicted with.

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-----------------------------Baron Von Speedypants
-----------------------------RunTraining articles here:
http://forum.slowtwitch.com/...runtraining;#1612485

Median household income in the US is $59,039. Why would the 80% number be surprising?

And living paycheck to paycheck could mean different things. It still feels like I am living paycheck to paycheck even though I am not, because the thought of being without a job in my 50's terrifies me since it could jack up retirement. So if you asked me I may very well say yes because I want/need every paycheck to do what I want to do when I want to do it.

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I'm beginning to think that we are much more fucked than I thought.

My first wife and I lived that way. We were poor students or so long that we went a bit crazy with "the wants" once we started to make money and deluded ourselves that having credit was the same as having money in the bank. We were making above average incomes but were spending like drunken sailors and were always broke at the end of the month. We got ourselves into trouble but fortunately we had a bought a building just before a huge real estate boom. We sold it at a good profit and bailed ourselves out. Just pure good luck but a lesson learned. Still wouldn't call myself a tight ass fiscal conservative, but have learned since then that living beyond your means is like having a loaded gun cocked against your head.

It's not inconceivable

My wife and I made good money and we saved a lot of it.

Then, and it does not matter what order this happened in, I lost my job, an apartment burnt down and an apartment I committed to buy was delivered nearly two years late making it a little tricky to get a mortgage with no job

The burnt down apartment took more than a year to deliver the first insurance payment. It took 30 months to receive all my money.

So, I'm in the situation where I'm haemorrhaging cash at the rate of 5-6k a month with zero income.

Three months savings is insufficient for anything.

I can honestly say that money related stress is the worst and can make you ill.

We are okay now, but it does not surprise me how many people are pay check to pay check.

I don't think that's what hardly anyone else considers "living paycheck to paycheck." It's a pretty commonly understood phrase. It means you rely on every single bit of your paycheck to meet all you financial obligations, every time you get a paycheck. No extra money to go into savings or investments. If you can afford that, you are, by definition, not living paycheck to paycheck.

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Slowguy

(insert pithy phrase here...)

I'm not surprised 80% are living paycheck to paycheck. As jpo said, the median household income is $59K. Subtract all necessary expenses and the math doesn't work out for many of those people to save 3-6 months of expenses for an emergency, especially if they have kids. Plus, they're supposed to save for retirement.

I'm not saying there isn't an over-spending problem for many, but income is the biggest issue for most of them.

I've held the same opinion for years. My University has recognized this problem. The sort of intro to college 1 credit course all freshman take now includes sections on the basics of personal finance and another one on health (diet, exercise, etc.).

My wife's cousins grew up in one of the most affluent counties in the country. They had courses on the stock market in high school.

I brought this up in the other thread. Our starter home mortgage and childcare for one kid is around $75,000 a year. That doesn't account for food, gas, etc. We are both pretty frugal, have good jobs and work hard. While we are not paycheck to paycheck, a few months without work would be very financially painful. Life is expensive in some places.

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Long Chile was a silly place.

I'd be curious to see a study that shows how effective this is. I suspect that it will only be marginally effective because humans are frequently impulsive and want what other people have.

Give those people credit... and boom. Idiocy abounds.

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How does Danny Hart sit down with balls that big?

Yes. And you choose to live in Victoria. That's cool but you don't have to live there.

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How does Danny Hart sit down with balls that big?

I agree. We know from the health literature that just giving people about disease, health, fitness is not all that effective if achieving the desired outcome means changing their lifestyle.

People barely graduating HS don’t need Earth science geology electives and creative writing.

They need a budgetary life skills course and a requirement to graduate with a certificate in a trade skill if they don’t have a college acceptance.

On thing though outside of poor choices is that wages have stagnated for decades now relative to both inflation and productivity.

Chapter 7: Why you never should have come here.

Yes, but my point is $100k doesn't get you far in an area with high cost of living. Could we move? Sure. Our salaries would drop considerably.

Your statement of nobody making over 100k a year has to have finances that tight is pretty oversimplified.

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Long Chile was a silly place.

In an affluent crowd of triathAlon enthusiasts this may be weird and a surprise but this truly is how the other 3/4 live. Razor thin margin between 'makin' it and financial ruin.

My wife is a teacher - I don't know who would even teach a financial responsibility class in school. Virtually all of her coworkers are financially illiterate (i.e.: part of that 80% who live paycheck to paycheck). Sometimes we'll talk about finances with friends, who are inevitably other teachers, and none of them have the slightest clue how good they have it and how they could do better. Totally dependent on the pension which is getting shittier with each tier and is really not all that great of a deal for young teachers entering the system (my wife). But none of them have the skills and tools to evaluate that. My point is - with 80% of the country fiscally irresponsible, where do you find the talent to teach kids the right approach?

Another data point with regards to this shutdown and high salaries. Several of these teachers are married to CBP agents so I hang out with them a lot as well. Young teacher - 40K-60K and a CBP agent in his mid-30s...easily another 80-100K with OT. So these families are pulling in 120 - 160K/year. We went to a birthday party for one of their kids literally yesterday. 3 CBP agents who missed their check last week. The quiet panic was palpable. None of them outright broke down but all 3 families were totally bewildered by what was happening and talking about defaulting on at least something this month.

I've helped one of them with some vanilla financial planning about 2 years ago but they've implemented exactly none of my suggestions...so now they're about to go bankrupt...with a 140K household income...

If they have a pulse we take 'em. I think something like 50% of our students are the first person in their family to attend college.

Do they pay nurses considerably more in BC than Ontario?

Obviously you would have to develop a new customer base but it wouldn't be the end of the world.

Would it be painless, no clearly not. But as I said you made a choice to live there.

It really is as simple as that.

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How does Danny Hart sit down with balls that big?

My theory is the gap started with my parents generation.

The plastic eliminated the line item checkbook balancing of my grandparents and you didn’t have a live internet statement to look at.

I got lucky and spent lots of time with my grandpa who religiously balanced his checkbook and took me on his errands to pay bills in person.

I also had a negative view of living wrong with money hearing parents argue through the walls at night. I just knew I didn’t want that and would rather have next to nothing.

My apartment during my first engineering job had a bed, a side table with cheapo alarm clock, a borrowed recliner, my college desk and computer, and a set of 4 place Ikea plates and utensils.

I had the closet full of tools to repair my car I had accumulated.

That’s it. Oh, and a 7 year old tube tv set. Bunny ears, no cable.

I had a sad existence for about 4 years out and of college paying off the car loan early and then getting a house.

One shit thing is the nearly zero ability to stay at jobs longer for Americans. Moving sucks equity and tons of money when you’d prefer stay at a place.

Holy shit, do none of them have a line of credit that they can draw on for a few weeks?

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How does Danny Hart sit down with balls that big?

Um no.. it depends upon where you live. $100k in Louisville or Oklahoma City looks a lot different than NYC, San Francisco, or Los Angeles.

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2017 Cervelo P2
2017 Cervelo S2
itraininla.com
#itraininla

Correct. And you don't have to live in those places.

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How does Danny Hart sit down with balls that big?

Cars SUCK the finance of people. Leases with significant monthly, with deposit then hand over the car, and pay for dings and over mileage.

Furniture, go to auction and find well made stuff that people are throwing out for the new styles. Don't like the color, refinish it.

Who NEEDS a 2000-3000 sq ft plus house?

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You should actually look at the study that you are talking about. If someone went bankrupt and had any healthcare related debt on it they counted that as healthcare related. So if I had 150k in credit card debt and 500 in medical debt they counted that as health care related.

No, apparently. But they're all at their borrowing capacity carrying other revolving debt (credit cards) so even if they had enough time to tap into equity the whole application process would probably take too long. 2 SUVs (or truck and SUV), homes that are unnecessarily large, toys coming out their kids' ears, motorcycles, snowmobiles, jetskis, boats, trailers, tractors, guns, motorhomes. You name it. Everything except a manageable debt to income ratio / debt to equity ratio.

Actual quote from one of them pre-shutdown when my wife suggested I review their finances (they were worried what Christmas was going to do to them financially): "we live comfortably"

My dad taught tech ed and had a section in his class where he taught his students how to fill out a job application and balance a checkbook. His thinking was that most of his students weren't going on to college and needed those basic skills. I think it should be taught to all students in high school because they don't really teach that in college either. I think I had to take a home economics class in middle school, but they taught us how to make a pillow.

I got a call a while ago from my alma mater trying to raise money for something. They started the call by asking me some questions about what I'm doing now, how my degree has helped me, etc. Then the student who called said she's graduating soon and asked if I had any advice. It caught me off guard and the only thing I could think of was to tell her to start putting money in her 401K as soon as she gets a job. She said, 'cool...what's a 401k?'

They really need to start teaching this stuff.

You also make less in those places.

I make less here than I did in Bermuda 15 years ago. Take home pay between my wife and I is lower than what I was making on my own there.

My standard of living is similar.

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Swimming Workout of the Day:

Favourite Swim Sets:

2020 National Masters Champion - M50-54 - 50m Butterfly

But as another poster said incomes are and jobs are available in these locations. I work for a large global company, if I were to laterally transfer from Metro Los Angeles to say Louisville my base pay would go down by about $20-30k per year. Being in sales, the oppty to sell more accounts would also go down so less performance income as well.
So lower cost of living, in a place I don't want to live, with lower income = treading water and shoveling snow.

But if I gave the tri habit I would have a lot more $$$ ;>)

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2017 Cervelo P2
2017 Cervelo S2
itraininla.com
#itraininla

Interesting. I have no debts. Equity in my home. Stock portfolio. Retirement accounts. But I don't have a 'line of credit'. Do you consider them necessary or an integral part of a good financial plan?

Good point car/house culture. They can be hard to overcome, even for the rational and educated. I drive a 5 y.o. Focus. I catch myself ogling a Tesla and have to tell myself to STFU. Or driving through downtown La Jolla and seeing rich people in high-end Beemers eyeball me like I'm there to clean the toilets.

But the plus side is our reserve cash is measured in years, even without using retirement money.

You clearly don't need one. We have one, it's nice to have. Once in a while we use it then pay it off.

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How does Danny Hart sit down with balls that big?

You all have no idea what living paycheck-to-paycheck means for most people. These aren't the people who went to your high school, or with whom you work who don't have a clue how to manage their 100k+ household incomes. They exist, of course (my teacher wife knows them), but that's not the majority of this group.

These are the people who work three part-time jobs, 60-80 hours per week, at near-minimum wage jobs. Or those who work full-time jobs at $12.50/hour, and try to support a family. 401(k)? Yeah, instead of eating, maybe.

Being poor is very expensive. You can't afford a monthly metro pass to get to your shitty job(s), so you have to pay more for daily or weekly passes. You can't afford to buy a couple of months' supply of household basics, so you end up paying more for smaller amounts of TP, napkins, rice, etc. You don't have access to a line of credit, because you don't own a home or anything else of value on which to borrow. Your "line of credit" is the payday loan shark down the street (and whose regulation is being stripped by this administration).

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"Go yell at an M&M"

I agree, it is not. But if you asked me I very well might say yes.

I don't keep a crap ton of cash I can get to this afternoon (it keeps me from being dumb, which I may or may not have a tendency to do) so my walking around money depends on the next check.

So what I was trying to say, when you ask people if they live paycheck to paycheck, some people who might not really be doing it would say yes because it feels that way

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I'm beginning to think that we are much more fucked than I thought.

Yeah, I know...and agree that most aren't the people making decent money but managing it poorly. Those are the students my dad taught. That's basically what I was getting at with my earlier comment that for many the problem is income more than their spending habits. The math simply doesn't work out for some to save up an emergency fund.

I worked at a lumber yard then a factory for a while after high school before going back to college. I worked with a lot of people living paycheck to paycheck not making much money. I don't think most overspent that much actually. I remember one guy who worked two full time jobs for a while. He wanted to save up some money. I don't think I've ever seen anyone so tired. He had a tooth get infected and that cost him a fair amount of money. Then his car broke down and he had to get that fixed. He eventually had to quit one job because he was so tired. I think he spent the money on his tooth and car and didn't really get ahead.

It's hard to get ahead when there isn't much coming in and opportunities for better jobs for people like that are few and far between.

"As jpo said, the median household income is $59K. Subtract all necessary expenses and the math doesn't work out for many of those people to save 3-6 months of expenses for an emergency, especially if they have kids. Plus, they're supposed to save for retirement. "

What do people who make $49K do? Can't the people who make $59K live like the ones who make $49K but also stash away $10K a year?

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-----------------------------Baron Von Speedypants
-----------------------------RunTraining articles here:
http://forum.slowtwitch.com/...runtraining;#1612485

Certainly - they're not in the same class (and I'm familiar with those as well. We buy them presents around major holidays because my wife - their teacher - knows they won't get any).

Subjectively, though, the 100K+ crowd that's one mishap away from a complicated financial mess is also going through a lot of stress to maintain the precarious balance. If some of our friends DO get into a reportable default situation on any of their numerous debt obligations it will set them back YEARS of work. Much better than homelessness but still pretty crazy considering their gross income. Their credit will be shit, they'll forever overpay for all of their future debt-financed purchases (because why change now?). Their kids will also be taught the wrong spending habits and fall on their face as soon as they get out of debt-financed college. Be stressed all their life, work jobs they don't like, die early. Rinse and repeat.

Well, some of us do. I was raised in a family with 9 kids, a mom who didn't work outside the home (could you imagine the child care costs?), and a dad who worked construction, which meant many winters on unemployment.

My wife and I spent many years going to school and working 30 - 40 hours a week and choosing food service jobs because you could eat there too. I have delivered and eaten more pizza than any human should ever see. And that is part of why I would probably still say I live paycheck to paycheck because it is hard to forget that is how I lived for so long.

But your point is not lost at all. A few years ago, ok, it was probably 10, I was talking with people I worked with. At the time Franklin County, OH had a median household income right around $45k. They simply refused to believe it. Everyone they knew made so much more than that they assumed the numbers were faked because no one could live on that. And Everyone they grew up with made way more than that.

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I'm beginning to think that we are much more fucked than I thought.

I have had a LOC for 10 years. I've used it twice and paid it off immediately both times. It's nice to have as a last resort.

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Long Chile was a silly place.

Mo money, mo problems.

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I'm beginning to think that we are much more fucked than I thought.

I don't know, but I doubt it's quite that simple. I suspect for a lot of people making that kind of money, living like a family making $10K less means living in a (more) dangerous neighborhood.

I believe there are groups of people who have extenuating circumstances but you (Sanuk) hit the nail on the head here as to our real problems.

I have employees who live paycheck to paycheck, and most of my employees make over that magical $15/hour number. They drive brand new cars, have the latest iPhone (every time a new one comes out), and eat out every day. One employee was telling me how she never has any money in her bank account and, in the next breath, started talking about the venti triple shot soy caramel macchiato she gets from Starbucks twice per day every day (I don't know exactly how much that cost but its goota be $5/drink, so $10/day, or $300+/month just for a specialized coffee!!!).

The same employees complain about not having money but also only want to work 30 hours per week. This is despite bill collectors and such. If you try to suggest they work a 40 hour week, or take on a second job, you would think we've suggested they kill their parents.

A lot of our society is play now and figure out how to pay for it later.

Again: more of our society doesn't have the kind of jobs you describe, and are "survive now and hope s*** doesn't happen later."

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"Go yell at an M&M"

Or live with roomates. Or get cheap rent from family.

I know a family who doesn't make much and have a daughter that has a very expensive medical condition who make it by living in a triple decker one of their parents own - parents own it and live in it and the family pays no rent.

I think you are missing the point. There is no question $100k goes further in some places than others. But, the point is, you cannot make $100k in many of those places where it goes further.

My daughter-in-law is a perfect example. For her profession, she would be making about $60k in the Milwaukee area. Instead, she is making $80k in the Las Vegas area. The cost of living is 26% greater in Henderson, NV than it is in Muskego, WI.

In the Milwaukee area, she would top out at $80k. In the Las Vegas area, she will top out at $100k. Yes, she could move back to WI, but, she would not be making $100K. Given the cost of living "adjustment" she is making the same in both locations.

You seem to be saying no one making $100k should live paycheck-to-paycheck. That implies that, for people making under $100k, living paycheck-to-paycheck is a possibility. So, using your logic, if my DIL was living paycheck-to-paycheck in WI ($80k), it would be understandable, but, it is inconceivable if she were doing the same in NV ($100k). That makes no sense.

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If there are no dogs in Heaven, then when I die I want to go where they went. - Will Rogers

Emery's Third Coast Triathlon | Tri Wisconsin Triathlon Team | Push Endurance | GLWR

Shifts in housing costs/appreciation, student loans, revolving debt, medical costs, wage stagnation all play a role. One needs to also look at the 78% demographically. A huge percentage of folks under 30 (maybe 35 with the economic collapse) live paycheck to paycheck. Beyond that, it begins to diverge: poor and lower middle-class earners never get out from debt. middle and upper-middle vary greatly: Some manage debt, some sink themselves in it further. others may live frugally, but save/invest strategically, so that they live pseudo "paycheck to paycheck". High earners mostly do just fine, if it lasts for many years, though they may certainly get trapped by really bad times or personal profligacy (remember 90% of those making over 100K DON'T live paycheck to paycheck).

Personally, I definitely was broke with lower middle-class earnings (or lower) until I was 35. Finances only improved significantly when I got married, and we had two folks with graduate degrees working full time.

Yeah my brain doesn’t always work at full capacity.

I am sure you’ve noticed.

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How does Danny Hart sit down with balls that big?

Another major money factor:
- Lotto tickets
- Cigarettes
- Booze

Sales higher in lower income areas.

Out of grad school I bought a condo and had a roommate who for two years lived on a paco pad while working in management at IBM. No bed. Just some kayaks and a camping pad. He brought girls back to his camping pad too. He was the Mac daddy. He is now a financial advisor - and I bet a good one if you’re willing to listen to him.

ETA I felt paycheck to paycheck at this time. I could not buy groceries on my budget without the rent check. But I was putting 10% in 401k and any bonuses into savings as part of my budget. So I do think the definition of paycheck to paycheck differs by person quite a bit. If you see savings as an obligation it can feel you are living paycheck to paycheck while saving - since your outgoing equals your incoming and any change would cut into your obligations.

"I don't know, but I doubt it's quite that simple. I suspect for a lot of people making that kind of money, living like a family making $10K less means living in a (more) dangerous neighborhood. "

I honestly think that's where a significant portion of money problems come from. Trashy people extend themselves so that they can get out of the ghetto, but blue collar people don't want to live near trashy people, so they extend themselves to get into white collar neighborhoods, which is full of people who don't want to live next door to blue collar people, etc. etc.

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-----------------------------Baron Von Speedypants
-----------------------------RunTraining articles here:
http://forum.slowtwitch.com/...runtraining;#1612485

I don't know. If the median household income is 59,000 and the average deductable for a family is 3,000. So that is 5% of your income, before taxes. Unless you luck out on timing, it is easy for the bills to span a couple years, so not suprising if some medical expense costs 6,000. That would make a big impact on how much you can save. And remember that is median income, lots of people making less than that.

And also get their kids into better schools, which are generally in places with a higher cost of living.

Its one of the reasons why my parents stretched their budget (at least at the time they did it). I was in a God awful school system from 6th-10th grades.

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-----------------------------Baron Von Speedypants
-----------------------------RunTraining articles here:
http://forum.slowtwitch.com/...runtraining;#1612485

I particularly care about my N+1 situation. Neither of my children live paycheck to paycheck. Both in their 30's. Both max out retirement plans. Both have their net paycheck paid into their MMA. Both take a fixed amount out of it monthly to live on. My daughter just bought her first 'new' car because someone totaled her 12 year old one (that I had given her when she graduated). She had 6 figures sitting in her MMA and paid cash for the car.

Not everyone gets taught about money. Some do. We did. We have always taught them that credit cards are for convenience, not finance. To set their Standard of Living far below their income. We also walk the walk and that is a powerful teaching tool.

Really you think this is typical? or that 80% of people are going through this? Also if you have no income your not really living paycheck to paycheck cause there is no paycheck. You must have had an emergency fund built up and not been living paycheck before or after. I think your more in the 20% not living paycheck to paycheck

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Just Triing
Triathlete since 9:56:39 AM EST Aug 20, 2006.
Be kind English is my 2nd language. My primary language is Dave it's a unique evolution of English.

Ok lets pretend everyone below median income is living paycheck to paycheck THATS STILL ONLY 50% (plus that includes single people) but lets take this and say its everyone below the 80% well thats $86,867 household income.

Hard to believe that level everyone below that income would be living paycheck to paycheck.

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Just Triing
Triathlete since 9:56:39 AM EST Aug 20, 2006.
Be kind English is my 2nd language. My primary language is Dave it's a unique evolution of English.

Ok you just made the point. YOUR NOT in the 80% even with an absurd Mortgage and Child care expense.

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Just Triing
Triathlete since 9:56:39 AM EST Aug 20, 2006.
Be kind English is my 2nd language. My primary language is Dave it's a unique evolution of English.

You know if you lose your job, the first thing you do is drop your kid from childcare, that takes your $75k number down to $40k.

Not sure if you moved some where less expensive your salary's would drop as far as your mortgage payment.

I know right out of college 2 of my offers were $30k in SE michigan or $23k in Pacific Northwest. (GM / Boeing) so rest of package was the same. I told my former boss at Boeing no way can't make those numbers work. He said yeah don't blame you financially its hard to get people to work here. And from my time there, it was clear a lot of workers, didn't mind living paycheck to paycheck and not putting anything away.

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Just Triing
Triathlete since 9:56:39 AM EST Aug 20, 2006.
Be kind English is my 2nd language. My primary language is Dave it's a unique evolution of English.

This is why I have a hard time feeling sorry for a lot of these people and others that complain about their finances. They have bought all kinds of toys and took all kinds of trips I choose not to, because of finances but now they are paying for their fun and I am suppose to feel bad for them.

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Just Triing
Triathlete since 9:56:39 AM EST Aug 20, 2006.
Be kind English is my 2nd language. My primary language is Dave it's a unique evolution of English.

Really you have no Credit cards? most bills can be put on a Credit Card. (Not the best but one way of at least paying the bills)

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Just Triing
Triathlete since 9:56:39 AM EST Aug 20, 2006.
Be kind English is my 2nd language. My primary language is Dave it's a unique evolution of English.

You are not "supposed to" feel anything for them. But, you are expected to have the common sense to understand the myriad of variables that make one person's finances wholly inapposite to another person's finances.

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If there are no dogs in Heaven, then when I die I want to go where they went. - Will Rogers

Emery's Third Coast Triathlon | Tri Wisconsin Triathlon Team | Push Endurance | GLWR

Dude you really think 80% of the households (so incomes below $80k) live this way>??? sure maybe 40 50% of the country is in that space, but the number was 80 not 50.

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Just Triing
Triathlete since 9:56:39 AM EST Aug 20, 2006.
Be kind English is my 2nd language. My primary language is Dave it's a unique evolution of English.

Really you pay cash for everything, and at the end of the week have no cash left, Thats living paycheck to paycheck. I have enough credit in CC to easily pay a $5000 unexpected bill tomorrow - that's not living paycheck to paycheck.

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Just Triing
Triathlete since 9:56:39 AM EST Aug 20, 2006.
Be kind English is my 2nd language. My primary language is Dave it's a unique evolution of English.

And that $40k is a pretty big mortgage payment. Not sure I'd call that a "starter house" as he described it.

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Slowguy

(insert pithy phrase here...)

Of course since this is a self reported thing, you would have answered yes, even though you are contributing to savings, have an emergency cash and savings. So maybe the issue is a part of that 80% are not what most think living paycheck to paycheck means.

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Just Triing
Triathlete since 9:56:39 AM EST Aug 20, 2006.
Be kind English is my 2nd language. My primary language is Dave it's a unique evolution of English.

Dude, did I comment on the validity of that statistic?

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"Go yell at an M&M"

So paycheck to paycheck means I allocate all money to savings? I guess I could say I can't even make it between paychecks cause I put everything into savings then have to dip into it to pay my bills?

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Just Triing
Triathlete since 9:56:39 AM EST Aug 20, 2006.
Be kind English is my 2nd language. My primary language is Dave it's a unique evolution of English.

Come on thats only a $600,000 house with 10% down and 30yr mortgage.

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Just Triing
Triathlete since 9:56:39 AM EST Aug 20, 2006.
Be kind English is my 2nd language. My primary language is Dave it's a unique evolution of English.

That's crap. In the workforce, you will see people from all walks of life, and income/education levels. To imply a lot of these people "can't help it" or "they are just surviving" is BS. Yes, there are some like that but the majority of these people live above their means, don't wanna work 40 hours a week, and are not surviving but living a life they can't afford.

"Dude, did I comment on the validity of that statistic? "

I think the point is that while a lot of people struggle for real reasons, our culture is not very good at financial planning. The point isn't that the number should be 50%. Its that we should at least agree that those who are in the 50th-80th percentile (or what have you) are not managing their money well at all.

I remember going on a run with a young engineer and I cited the stat that most Americans couldn't come up with $1000 in two months without selling something. He then told me that he couldn't do it either. The guy was about 32 years old and made todays equivalent of about $90K a year, and not in a particularly high cost of living area.

Americans are simply not savers, regardless of how much money they make. They spend 100% of the money they have.

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-----------------------------Baron Von Speedypants
-----------------------------RunTraining articles here:
http://forum.slowtwitch.com/...runtraining;#1612485

Not living paycheck to paycheck isn't about having available credit. If you need your next paycheck to be able to pay your living expenses, you're living paycheck to paycheck. If you can miss a paycheck and still pay your living expenses without resorting to credit, you're not living paycheck to paycheck.

According to a quick Google, and from the Federal Reserve, about 50% of households make between $20,000 and $30,000/year. Do you think they are "surviving" or "living a life they can't afford?"

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----------------------------------
"Go yell at an M&M"

According to the IRS data, the median household income is closer to $53,000/year.

Regardless of what numbers you want to play with, I've been on both ends of the spectrum regarding income. If my car had over 200,000 miles on it, and it still worked, I drove it. I didn't even have a cell phone until I was 31.....because I knew I needed to use that money for necessities. Everyone seems to think they deserve the best right here, right now. Yes there are people "surviving" but I think some people just make bad decisions. It's part of our "no consequences for our actions society".

I had a conversation with a 38 year old a few days ago talking about turning her car in because she wants a Forerunner. I said "that's expensive" and she said "yeah, I'll be about $10,000 underwater but I really want it!!!" I mean, there is so much non-sense.

Another employee has six kids, he's constantly asking other employees for money, and he just purchased a brand new F-150 pickup. One of those really nice ones. Brand new!!! It makes no sense. They see something they want, and they buy it, with no regard of "how am I going to afford this down the road".

A friend, who is a single mom with two kids, has always chosen to work only 2-3 days per week so she can stay home with her kids (her mother lives with her and could watch the kids). She admits this is why she does not work more. She lives paycheck to paycheck. I've even offered to help pay for her to go back to school so she could become a nurse but she has turned me down because "that's too much work". Every year, she gets a big fat tax return (child tax credit is how she gets it because she pays zero taxes). Instead of using that tax return for a "rainy day" fund, she blows every bit of it on goofy stuff. A month later and she's telling my wife "I hope they don't come repossess my car". We've tried teaching her to save that money, or pay down debt, but she refuses. As soon as she gets the money, it's gone. It's crazy.

N=1 anecdote.....not at all implying that this represents the majority.


I worked a government job and there was a young girl there who did not have her shit together. Her job was okay, but didn't pay well and there wasn't much future. She wanted to go to school to become a nurse, but couldn't figure out how to afford it.

AND then she also said this:

She married young and divorced almost immediately. The car she was driving was her one her ex picked, so she wanted to buy a new car despite the fact that her car only had 15,000 - 20,000 miles on it. One day I heard her talk about how she found a car that she liked, but it didn't have push button start, and she really wanted push button start (keep in mind, this was 10 years ago). One day I saw her drive in with her new car, a Nissan 350z:





Oh, did I mention, she couldn't afford nursing school?

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-----------------------------Baron Von Speedypants
-----------------------------RunTraining articles here:
http://forum.slowtwitch.com/...runtraining;#1612485

Statistics like this blow my mind, it's crazy to see it in action. Lots of people don't realize how truly good they have it.

Interesting to me, when I first got my current job, there were 4 of us in the workgroup ~ 3 of us in essentially the same salary range plus a supervisor who was in the next range up (about 10% more); of the 3, 1 had been here several years and was topped out already while I got hired somewhere mid-range and the next guy got hired soon after I assume at the next step below where I was. The noteworthy part was that the 2 youngest/lowest-paid among us both lived in bigger houses and drove nicer cars than the 2 senior guys making more, cuz both of our wives also worked while 1 of theirs didn't and the other only worked part-time. In fact the newest/youngest guy was easily the most well-off cuz they didn't have their first kid until later, while the other 3 of us all had 2 each at roughly similar ages (making that a fairly consistent variable by way of comparison).

The former supervisor ended up getting promoted to a manager and makes substantially more now so he can still afford to support his household on the 1 income, while my other buddy had some health problems that limited his work availability and they are living in a world of financial shit now as his wife still makes less than his disability payments (which in turn are only 60% of his former salary). They definitely fall into the pay(disability) check-to-paycheck category now and do a lot of things like barter pet/house-sitting for their neighbors in return for firewood to heat their home (they live in the rural fringe just out of town). He even used to sell weed on the side, but there's no money in that anymore since the rec market went legal in our state.

But is that chicken or egg...?

Sorta joking. I have to admit I buy at least my share of booze and, uh, 'alternative' smokes, but can afford not to feel any interest in the Lotto (although the Mrs considers it a cheap thrill on occasion without having to put up w/ going to a casino). But I can kinda see the allure of 'jackpot' fantasies for those who see that sort of thing played up in the media but have no grasp of the mathematical probabilities involved. That whole system is kinda geared toward preying on those who can't afford it, because those who can afford it aren't in a position to be susceptible to its pull... hence the kinda chicken/egg relationship.

our culture is not very good at financial planning
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Or the day-to-day stuff. Our school has an option for staff to purchase meals made and delivered around lunch time at reasonable prices, as compared to restaurant food. A meal typically ranges from $4-$10, freshly prepared daily. My TA, who is a single mom x4, living with her parents and no working vehicle (despite her outspoken desire to get out of her parents and get said vehicle) takes advantage of this on a daily basis. I'll often see her buying from the vending machines. She'll then make fun of me for making a sandwich and bring in some fruit as my meal. My daily lunch costs less than $1.50 daily. I've talked to her about costs and finances. Some people simply don't want to save.

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Take a short break from ST and read my blog:
http://tri-banter.blogspot.com/

You hijacked that from a different path which was the need for a line of credit. Plus someone had said they lived paycheck to paycheck cause they had no cash to pay a bill, there savings were tied up and it would take time to get it.

My point is just cause you don't have $5000 in cash available to pay for the new engine in your car, if you can buy it take the money from savings and move on your fine, Sure you float it on your cc while you get the cash, but that does not mean your living paycheck to paycheck.

We both agree on the definition.

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Just Triing
Triathlete since 9:56:39 AM EST Aug 20, 2006.
Be kind English is my 2nd language. My primary language is Dave it's a unique evolution of English.

So your at 25% living paycheck to paycheck.. a long ways from 80%

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Just Triing
Triathlete since 9:56:39 AM EST Aug 20, 2006.
Be kind English is my 2nd language. My primary language is Dave it's a unique evolution of English.

Coworkers go to lunch nearly every day and I have brown bagged it 99% of the time in my 28 working years. Between that and doing my own yard work, I have pocketed well north of $75k that has gone to paying off mortgages or investing in retirement or non-retirement. Choices matter.

Fuck that. The only thing that keeps me sane is going out for lunch every day. I drive a base model car to make up for it.

= )

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-----------------------------Baron Von Speedypants
-----------------------------RunTraining articles here:
http://forum.slowtwitch.com/...runtraining;#1612485

I know you are joking but ...

We used to go to lunch every day. Wife and I work for the same company. I'd get two bottles of diet pepsi a day, she'd get two cups of coffee. I really am not that big of a fan of leftovers for lunch but then we did the maths. Calculated off of actual costs bringing cans of pop from home, coffee brewed at home brought in a thermos, and approximate increased costs of grocery bill. And we were very conservative on the cost of lunch bought and generous on how much it cost to pack. Used 20 days/mth to account for days off.

Diet Pepsi - 2 a day x 5 days x $1.60 = $16.00/wk = $64/mth
Coffee - 2 a day x 5 days x $2.00 = $20.00/wk = $80/mth
Lunch - 2 a day x 5days x $10.00 = $100/k = $500/mth

Diet Pepsi - 2 a day x 5 days x $0.23 = $2.30/wk = $9.20/mth
Coffee - 2 a day x 5 days x $0.25 = $2.50/wk = $10/mth
Lunch - 2 a day x 5 days x $3.00 = $30/wk = $120/mth

Costs prior = $644.00
Costs after = $139.20

It has legitimately saved us $500+/mth. That was our second biggest bill behind the mortgage.

ETA - it was actually the pop and coffee savings that made us say, "Fuck me."

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I'm beginning to think that we are much more fucked than I thought.

The lunch math assumes no value to your time though. My husband and I both get lunch at the work cafeteria daily. It’s about $6 but I save about an hour a week not planning and making lunches. As a working mom an hour of my time is quite valuable.

That said I do make my own coffee at home and we’re thankfully not living paycheck to paycheck.

We are good about taking breakfast/lunch for work but when I think about differences between our expenses and my parents when growing up, a big one is eating out. When I was growing up we would once in a blue moon go out for dinner. I would guess my wife and I eat out on average somewhere between 1-2 times per week, sometimes with kids sometimes without. Again just guessing that we are averaging somewhere between $100-150 per week on that.

Just bragging here but:

This summer I bought $1.29 pack of butternut squash seeds, these plants require little to no maintenance, I harvested about 30+ squash in the fall. 30 minute prep for the slow cooker and assuming about $2-$3 of spices, onions & apple sauce I got tons of butternut squash soup. We got dinner and enough lunch leftovers for 2-4 days each.

All being said, My lunches for half of this week cost about $.50 a piece.

Best part, both my young daughters asked for 2nds the night I made it.

It is a 1400 sq ft house, built in 1958, with an unfinished basement, on a small lot. Never been renovated (hell, it had original paint in every room, and 2 pronged electrical outlets... couldn't even plug in a toaster when we took possession). It doesn't get much more 'starter home' then that without being absolute bulldozer bait. It was like an immaculately preserved time capsule from the 50's.

It cost $565,000 when we bought it, 3 years ago.

Spent the remainder of our savings and a year of evenings and weekends turning the unfinished basement in to a rental suite and doing some basic upgrading (heating, perimeter drains, etc, nothing frivolous). Monthly rent from the suite is now $1600 plus utilities. We are located near two colleges so demand for the suite is always there.

The house is worth $875,000 today.

It was definitely a gamble when we bought it, and it led to an incredible amount of stress for a couple of years. Had we waited to save more, we would never have been able to get in.

Again, the whole point of my comment is that $100,000 a year isn't buying you much in a lot of areas.

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Long Chile was a silly place.

Butternut squash soup is one of my standard lunch goes to. Went a bit ape shit last year and grew too many, so most have rotted in my too damp basement by now.

Another good one is potato and leek soup.

If you have the land you can grow a lot of high calorie foods relatively easily. Potatoes, corn, squash, beans are all pretty easy to grow. Add some leaks, onions, garlic, tomatoes and you can grow a decent amount of food.

My goal for this year is to get the gear to process corn and make tortillas.

This is something we have battled with too. My wife and I are insanely busy and sometimes the temptation not to make lunches for the week is very strong. But, I have found meals that I love, are delicious and healthy, and that really take very little prep time. Definitely worth the savings, even if it means staying up a bit later after the kids go down to do 10 min of prep a night.

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Long Chile was a silly place.

Holy shit! Dude, BLeP was right in his comments about where you live. Damn.

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If there are no dogs in Heaven, then when I die I want to go where they went. - Will Rogers

Emery's Third Coast Triathlon | Tri Wisconsin Triathlon Team | Push Endurance | GLWR

It does because my wife loves to cook and most lunches are gourmet leftovers. Or at most meat for a sandwich and bread with vegetables and fruit.

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I'm beginning to think that we are much more fucked than I thought.

There is a lot more to weigh in the equation of where to live then just housing costs.

Like I said, if we were were looking at buying now, we would have no chance. We would certainly move.

Part of me wants to sell now, take the money and run. But our quality of life here is outstanding. It really is among the best places in the world to live (and starting to be priced accordingly...)

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Long Chile was a silly place.

Going to try sweet potatoes & onions this year. We have a ~5x30 plot we use for the squash & zuccini and another 10x30 plot for tomatoes, green beans, and other stuff. I might try and do onions around the squash and replace the zuc with potatoes.

Yeah, gardens are great investments. I planted tomatoes. My dog thought it was a ball tree and kept pulling them off the vines (labs can be so smart about some things but the desire to play with a ball seems to evaporate all of that) so I had to buy a fence... wind blew the fence down - bought new posts etc etc etc

And then I had 8 $64 a piece tomatoes!

Amateurs! Try the Bay Area. The math is perverse, as long as housing rises over 4%, it is an incredibly good investment (leveraged x5). Of course, at some point it becomes over-valued, the bubble pops, and all new buyers lose bigly. Hence, speculative investing and skyrocketing valuations in the most desirable locations (and some very wealthy folks living "paycheck to paycheck"). Waiting for the music to stop....

I've had good luck with onions. I live in Maine so fairly short growing season. I start a tray inside and the transplant when it warms up. Usually get more than I can use (i.e. they end up rotting in the basement before I can use all of them). Don't think I could grow sweet potatoes here but never looked into it.

Damn, I gotta step up my gardening game. I live on 2 acres so I've got the space. Climate is quite similar to Maine so it takes a bit of extra work/planning. I also want to grow heirloom corn and make my own nixamal. Bit of a homesteader spirit given that my family grew a substantial amount of our own food in eastern Europe (plants, animals, even a small vineyard for wine).

Yep. We were watching prices climb year over year. We had been aggressively searching for a house for 2 years and kept getting out bid. Houses would be for sale for an hour then sold with no conditions.

Our only condition upon purchase was financing. I did the inspection myself upon viewing the house. I actually liked the fact that it was completely un-renovated. Renovated houses can be like peeling back layers of an onion, you never know what you might find. At least I knew what I was walking in to.

The reason we decided to stay put is because we still felt our area was undervalued. If you look up and down the coast of both Canada and the US, we are the most undervalued area of our size, still. Great weather, safe, the city is on a peninsula, so you can't really sprawl out and land value can't get too diluted, our economy is robust and well diversified, and not prone to recession (Victoria barely felt 2008. Government jobs and weed production are recession proof :-) ). Very different then say, Calgary, where prices shot up, then collapsed when oil prices dropped.

I look at places like Vancouver and Seattle and see there is still room to go up here. We could have moved somewhere cheaper, but, my income would have temporarily dropped probably by 50%, and more importantly the ceiling of my potential future income would drop dramatically, and we would be moving somewhere where prices would still be booming but the area wouldn't have the stability, economy wise, that we enjoy here.

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Long Chile was a silly place.

My challenges are I try to do it on the cheap and the fertility is getting played out. I didn't have a garden in the main area last year to give it a chance to rest and build up some fertility again. I need a truck and to find someplace I can get a bunch of manure. Not going to pay hundreds of dollars to have it shipped in. I just can't make enough compost fast enough to replace the fertility.

I also don't have a good cellar for storage. Our's is too wet so most things rot much faster than if I had a decent cold room.

Your free time has no value if the choice is living paycheck to paycheck. You need to be doing all you can to save, so if that means taking 10 min to make lunch to save $500 a month you do it.

That is one of the sayings that leads to bad financial decisions.

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Just Triing
Triathlete since 9:56:39 AM EST Aug 20, 2006.
Be kind English is my 2nd language. My primary language is Dave it's a unique evolution of English.

We eat out once or twice a year. (not including pizza brought home $5 pizza from Little ceasars once or twice a month)

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Just Triing
Triathlete since 9:56:39 AM EST Aug 20, 2006.
Be kind English is my 2nd language. My primary language is Dave it's a unique evolution of English.

Your life makes me sad.

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If there are no dogs in Heaven, then when I die I want to go where they went. - Will Rogers

Emery's Third Coast Triathlon | Tri Wisconsin Triathlon Team | Push Endurance | GLWR

Yeah, that is not something I would aspire to.

Part of what made it easy to pack lunch is that we were eating crap we didn't actually like to eat.

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I'm beginning to think that we are much more fucked than I thought.

That is correct for my small cohort, although I don't think I was ever trying to claim otherwise ~ only expanding on old&slow's point about the changing state of finances as you get older and have a dual-income household. In my example, the 2 highest-income households are the ones with dual incomes (both wives have grad degrees, in fact); the 3rd-highest household income is the one w/ the manager making the single highest income (also has grad degree) but wife doesn't work; and the only one living paycheck-to-paycheck is the guy whose wife only works part-time/low-skill and lost his full-time white-collar job to medical disability.

If you now add in the new guy just hired to replace the former peer lost to disability, he & his GF both work and have no kids yet ~ so it would either drop to 0% of the current workgroup, or 20% if we still count our ex-colleague.

Yeah, but that's CAD. $1M CAD is worth like one moose reach around

Two points:

1) Check your math there, bro. You are off by 100 bucks a month.

And more importantly:
2) You could reduce costs even further with more asparagus lunches, no?

Sweet potatoes supposedly don't like frost. Maybe in a large mobile pot?

And my point is that a house that costs more than half a million isn’t a starter house, no matter how basic it is.

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Slowguy

(insert pithy phrase here...)

As a Packers fan, he probably thinks the same about you!

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Long Chile was a silly place.

You don't think that the price of the house is relative to what your income is?

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Long Chile was a silly place.

I'm sitting here thinking, wtf is he talking about. Then, ohhh, no I got it. :)

That's only good for abut a month in the Spring.

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I'm beginning to think that we are much more fucked than I thought.

Uhm. He's a Lions fan, so, his life is sad in oh so many ways.

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If there are no dogs in Heaven, then when I die I want to go where they went. - Will Rogers

Emery's Third Coast Triathlon | Tri Wisconsin Triathlon Team | Push Endurance | GLWR

I don't follow your silly American sports too well, so, I will have to take your word on that.

But in seriousness, I agree with your initial comment. There's saving and being financially responsible, but... You can't take all that cash with you when you die.

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Long Chile was a silly place.

Oh, I wan't joking at all. I really do eat out every day. One of my standard lunches costs $14. Factoring in the drive, minus an inexpensive meal made at home, and we're looking at $20 a day.

But it is, quite literally, one of the luxuries in my life that I look forward to. I don't need an expensive car, or a hot tub, or a bigger house, or a fancier vacation, or a new high end computer every 2-3 years, etc. etc. I also don't have cable. Hell, this is a triathlon forum and I've bought two bikes in the last 30 years. One for $300, and one for $1,200. But there's no f'ing way I'm going to sit cooped up in my house and eat a cheap lunch every day. Not if I can afford not to.

But, I have done the math on morning coffee before and that was one place, when I used to commute, where I stopped getting the $3.50 Starbucks every morning.

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-----------------------------Baron Von Speedypants
-----------------------------RunTraining articles here:
http://forum.slowtwitch.com/...runtraining;#1612485

My challenges are I try to do it on the cheap and the fertility is getting played out. I didn't have a garden in the main area last year to give it a chance to rest and build up some fertility again. I need a truck and to find someplace I can get a bunch of manure. Not going to pay hundreds of dollars to have it shipped in. I just can't make enough compost fast enough to replace the fertility.



Our town dump, which is only used for leaves and grass, is where I get compost. When I lived in California, I'd ask a dairy farmer if I could take a tiny bit of manure from their huge pile. I doesn't take a lot of cow manure to improve the soil a lot.

What I have trouble growing is any root vegetable. Carrots and beets always end up with beautiful greens but barely anything underground.

Hah! 500k barely gets you into a trailer park around these parts.

I don't think that "starter home" is a term that applies to people who are buying half million dollar houses. I do think that whether a home is affordable is relative to your income. Separate issues.

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Slowguy

(insert pithy phrase here...)

I've experimented a lot with gardening. I've landed on only growing high cost produce. So I grow a lot of berries, because those suckers cost a lot in the store (and these taste so much better) but I'm not going to grow things that are cheap like onions and potatoes. (I'm in California, so I have to factor in water costs). I'll grow lettuce in the spring while it's still raining because one packet of spring mix grows a lot of lettuce. Lots of tomatoes because you can get a ton of yield off one plant. etc.

Yep, previous owners left us with about 30 feet of raspberry bushes along the perimeter of our property. Freeze those suckers and add them to smoothies.

Our general collection is radishes, beets, tomatoes, carrots, peas/beans, peppers and squash. The taste of carrots and tomatoes compared to what you buy at the store is so much richer.

The downside to gardening is the endless weeding, thankfully my wife takes care of most of this, but I'll till and put the fence up so it evens out right? Each year we take tons of our neighbor's and friends raked leaves and put them down as a mulch around are garden. It works great in two ways 1) stops weeds from coming up 2) composts over time and adds nutrition to the ground.

Look around for a sheep or goat farmer. We get a load of manure in the fall from a guy down the street and spread it out to cook the soil all winter. Top it with shredded leaves and the soil is great in the spring.

Yes my life is sad in so many ways to so many people. But very enjoyable to me. Wife (Environmental Engineer grad top of her class) has stayed home and raised our kids, I have a job that has allowed me to leave and go to my kids activities during the day. Provide a nice home with great schools. Yup they have never been to Disney, lived without cable and didn't get cell phones till 16. Life sucks. Yup they view going out to eat as a luxury special thing not just another Tuesday night.

Its all about choices, Family was way more important then $$ or career or status or even a winning football team.

I'll take low stress, few worries or concerns in the world any day over living paycheck to paycheck so that I can eat out.

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Just Triing
Triathlete since 9:56:39 AM EST Aug 20, 2006.
Be kind English is my 2nd language. My primary language is Dave it's a unique evolution of English.