I have had a LOC for 10 years. I've used it twice and paid it off immediately both times. It's nice to have as a last resort.

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Long Chile was a silly place.

Mo money, mo problems.

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I'm beginning to think that we are much more fucked than I thought.

I don't know, but I doubt it's quite that simple. I suspect for a lot of people making that kind of money, living like a family making $10K less means living in a (more) dangerous neighborhood.

I believe there are groups of people who have extenuating circumstances but you (Sanuk) hit the nail on the head here as to our real problems.

I have employees who live paycheck to paycheck, and most of my employees make over that magical $15/hour number. They drive brand new cars, have the latest iPhone (every time a new one comes out), and eat out every day. One employee was telling me how she never has any money in her bank account and, in the next breath, started talking about the venti triple shot soy caramel macchiato she gets from Starbucks twice per day every day (I don't know exactly how much that cost but its goota be $5/drink, so $10/day, or $300+/month just for a specialized coffee!!!).

The same employees complain about not having money but also only want to work 30 hours per week. This is despite bill collectors and such. If you try to suggest they work a 40 hour week, or take on a second job, you would think we've suggested they kill their parents.

A lot of our society is play now and figure out how to pay for it later.

Again: more of our society doesn't have the kind of jobs you describe, and are "survive now and hope s*** doesn't happen later."

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"Go yell at an M&M"

Or live with roomates. Or get cheap rent from family.

I know a family who doesn't make much and have a daughter that has a very expensive medical condition who make it by living in a triple decker one of their parents own - parents own it and live in it and the family pays no rent.

I think you are missing the point. There is no question $100k goes further in some places than others. But, the point is, you cannot make $100k in many of those places where it goes further.

My daughter-in-law is a perfect example. For her profession, she would be making about $60k in the Milwaukee area. Instead, she is making $80k in the Las Vegas area. The cost of living is 26% greater in Henderson, NV than it is in Muskego, WI.

In the Milwaukee area, she would top out at $80k. In the Las Vegas area, she will top out at $100k. Yes, she could move back to WI, but, she would not be making $100K. Given the cost of living "adjustment" she is making the same in both locations.

You seem to be saying no one making $100k should live paycheck-to-paycheck. That implies that, for people making under $100k, living paycheck-to-paycheck is a possibility. So, using your logic, if my DIL was living paycheck-to-paycheck in WI ($80k), it would be understandable, but, it is inconceivable if she were doing the same in NV ($100k). That makes no sense.

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If there are no dogs in Heaven, then when I die I want to go where they went. - Will Rogers

Emery's Third Coast Triathlon | Tri Wisconsin Triathlon Team | Push Endurance | GLWR

Shifts in housing costs/appreciation, student loans, revolving debt, medical costs, wage stagnation all play a role. One needs to also look at the 78% demographically. A huge percentage of folks under 30 (maybe 35 with the economic collapse) live paycheck to paycheck. Beyond that, it begins to diverge: poor and lower middle-class earners never get out from debt. middle and upper-middle vary greatly: Some manage debt, some sink themselves in it further. others may live frugally, but save/invest strategically, so that they live pseudo "paycheck to paycheck". High earners mostly do just fine, if it lasts for many years, though they may certainly get trapped by really bad times or personal profligacy (remember 90% of those making over 100K DON'T live paycheck to paycheck).

Personally, I definitely was broke with lower middle-class earnings (or lower) until I was 35. Finances only improved significantly when I got married, and we had two folks with graduate degrees working full time.

Yeah my brain doesn’t always work at full capacity.

I am sure you’ve noticed.

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How does Danny Hart sit down with balls that big?

Another major money factor:
- Lotto tickets
- Cigarettes
- Booze

Sales higher in lower income areas.

Out of grad school I bought a condo and had a roommate who for two years lived on a paco pad while working in management at IBM. No bed. Just some kayaks and a camping pad. He brought girls back to his camping pad too. He was the Mac daddy. He is now a financial advisor - and I bet a good one if you’re willing to listen to him.

ETA I felt paycheck to paycheck at this time. I could not buy groceries on my budget without the rent check. But I was putting 10% in 401k and any bonuses into savings as part of my budget. So I do think the definition of paycheck to paycheck differs by person quite a bit. If you see savings as an obligation it can feel you are living paycheck to paycheck while saving - since your outgoing equals your incoming and any change would cut into your obligations.

"I don't know, but I doubt it's quite that simple. I suspect for a lot of people making that kind of money, living like a family making $10K less means living in a (more) dangerous neighborhood. "

I honestly think that's where a significant portion of money problems come from. Trashy people extend themselves so that they can get out of the ghetto, but blue collar people don't want to live near trashy people, so they extend themselves to get into white collar neighborhoods, which is full of people who don't want to live next door to blue collar people, etc. etc.

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-----------------------------Baron Von Speedypants
-----------------------------RunTraining articles here:
http://forum.slowtwitch.com/...runtraining;#1612485

I don't know. If the median household income is 59,000 and the average deductable for a family is 3,000. So that is 5% of your income, before taxes. Unless you luck out on timing, it is easy for the bills to span a couple years, so not suprising if some medical expense costs 6,000. That would make a big impact on how much you can save. And remember that is median income, lots of people making less than that.

And also get their kids into better schools, which are generally in places with a higher cost of living.

Its one of the reasons why my parents stretched their budget (at least at the time they did it). I was in a God awful school system from 6th-10th grades.

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-----------------------------Baron Von Speedypants
-----------------------------RunTraining articles here:
http://forum.slowtwitch.com/...runtraining;#1612485

I particularly care about my N+1 situation. Neither of my children live paycheck to paycheck. Both in their 30's. Both max out retirement plans. Both have their net paycheck paid into their MMA. Both take a fixed amount out of it monthly to live on. My daughter just bought her first 'new' car because someone totaled her 12 year old one (that I had given her when she graduated). She had 6 figures sitting in her MMA and paid cash for the car.

Not everyone gets taught about money. Some do. We did. We have always taught them that credit cards are for convenience, not finance. To set their Standard of Living far below their income. We also walk the walk and that is a powerful teaching tool.

Really you think this is typical? or that 80% of people are going through this? Also if you have no income your not really living paycheck to paycheck cause there is no paycheck. You must have had an emergency fund built up and not been living paycheck before or after. I think your more in the 20% not living paycheck to paycheck

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Just Triing
Triathlete since 9:56:39 AM EST Aug 20, 2006.
Be kind English is my 2nd language. My primary language is Dave it's a unique evolution of English.

Ok lets pretend everyone below median income is living paycheck to paycheck THATS STILL ONLY 50% (plus that includes single people) but lets take this and say its everyone below the 80% well thats $86,867 household income.

Hard to believe that level everyone below that income would be living paycheck to paycheck.

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Just Triing
Triathlete since 9:56:39 AM EST Aug 20, 2006.
Be kind English is my 2nd language. My primary language is Dave it's a unique evolution of English.

Ok you just made the point. YOUR NOT in the 80% even with an absurd Mortgage and Child care expense.

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Just Triing
Triathlete since 9:56:39 AM EST Aug 20, 2006.
Be kind English is my 2nd language. My primary language is Dave it's a unique evolution of English.

You know if you lose your job, the first thing you do is drop your kid from childcare, that takes your $75k number down to $40k.

Not sure if you moved some where less expensive your salary's would drop as far as your mortgage payment.

I know right out of college 2 of my offers were $30k in SE michigan or $23k in Pacific Northwest. (GM / Boeing) so rest of package was the same. I told my former boss at Boeing no way can't make those numbers work. He said yeah don't blame you financially its hard to get people to work here. And from my time there, it was clear a lot of workers, didn't mind living paycheck to paycheck and not putting anything away.

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Just Triing
Triathlete since 9:56:39 AM EST Aug 20, 2006.
Be kind English is my 2nd language. My primary language is Dave it's a unique evolution of English.

This is why I have a hard time feeling sorry for a lot of these people and others that complain about their finances. They have bought all kinds of toys and took all kinds of trips I choose not to, because of finances but now they are paying for their fun and I am suppose to feel bad for them.

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Just Triing
Triathlete since 9:56:39 AM EST Aug 20, 2006.
Be kind English is my 2nd language. My primary language is Dave it's a unique evolution of English.

Really you have no Credit cards? most bills can be put on a Credit Card. (Not the best but one way of at least paying the bills)

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Just Triing
Triathlete since 9:56:39 AM EST Aug 20, 2006.
Be kind English is my 2nd language. My primary language is Dave it's a unique evolution of English.

You are not "supposed to" feel anything for them. But, you are expected to have the common sense to understand the myriad of variables that make one person's finances wholly inapposite to another person's finances.

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If there are no dogs in Heaven, then when I die I want to go where they went. - Will Rogers

Emery's Third Coast Triathlon | Tri Wisconsin Triathlon Team | Push Endurance | GLWR

Dude you really think 80% of the households (so incomes below $80k) live this way>??? sure maybe 40 50% of the country is in that space, but the number was 80 not 50.

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Just Triing
Triathlete since 9:56:39 AM EST Aug 20, 2006.
Be kind English is my 2nd language. My primary language is Dave it's a unique evolution of English.

Really you pay cash for everything, and at the end of the week have no cash left, Thats living paycheck to paycheck. I have enough credit in CC to easily pay a $5000 unexpected bill tomorrow - that's not living paycheck to paycheck.

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Just Triing
Triathlete since 9:56:39 AM EST Aug 20, 2006.
Be kind English is my 2nd language. My primary language is Dave it's a unique evolution of English.