And that $40k is a pretty big mortgage payment. Not sure I'd call that a "starter house" as he described it.

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Slowguy

(insert pithy phrase here...)

Of course since this is a self reported thing, you would have answered yes, even though you are contributing to savings, have an emergency cash and savings. So maybe the issue is a part of that 80% are not what most think living paycheck to paycheck means.

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Just Triing
Triathlete since 9:56:39 AM EST Aug 20, 2006.
Be kind English is my 2nd language. My primary language is Dave it's a unique evolution of English.

Dude, did I comment on the validity of that statistic?

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"Go yell at an M&M"

So paycheck to paycheck means I allocate all money to savings? I guess I could say I can't even make it between paychecks cause I put everything into savings then have to dip into it to pay my bills?

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Just Triing
Triathlete since 9:56:39 AM EST Aug 20, 2006.
Be kind English is my 2nd language. My primary language is Dave it's a unique evolution of English.

Come on thats only a $600,000 house with 10% down and 30yr mortgage.

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Just Triing
Triathlete since 9:56:39 AM EST Aug 20, 2006.
Be kind English is my 2nd language. My primary language is Dave it's a unique evolution of English.

That's crap. In the workforce, you will see people from all walks of life, and income/education levels. To imply a lot of these people "can't help it" or "they are just surviving" is BS. Yes, there are some like that but the majority of these people live above their means, don't wanna work 40 hours a week, and are not surviving but living a life they can't afford.

"Dude, did I comment on the validity of that statistic? "

I think the point is that while a lot of people struggle for real reasons, our culture is not very good at financial planning. The point isn't that the number should be 50%. Its that we should at least agree that those who are in the 50th-80th percentile (or what have you) are not managing their money well at all.

I remember going on a run with a young engineer and I cited the stat that most Americans couldn't come up with $1000 in two months without selling something. He then told me that he couldn't do it either. The guy was about 32 years old and made todays equivalent of about $90K a year, and not in a particularly high cost of living area.

Americans are simply not savers, regardless of how much money they make. They spend 100% of the money they have.

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-----------------------------Baron Von Speedypants
-----------------------------RunTraining articles here:
http://forum.slowtwitch.com/...runtraining;#1612485

Not living paycheck to paycheck isn't about having available credit. If you need your next paycheck to be able to pay your living expenses, you're living paycheck to paycheck. If you can miss a paycheck and still pay your living expenses without resorting to credit, you're not living paycheck to paycheck.

According to a quick Google, and from the Federal Reserve, about 50% of households make between $20,000 and $30,000/year. Do you think they are "surviving" or "living a life they can't afford?"

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"Go yell at an M&M"

According to the IRS data, the median household income is closer to $53,000/year.

Regardless of what numbers you want to play with, I've been on both ends of the spectrum regarding income. If my car had over 200,000 miles on it, and it still worked, I drove it. I didn't even have a cell phone until I was 31.....because I knew I needed to use that money for necessities. Everyone seems to think they deserve the best right here, right now. Yes there are people "surviving" but I think some people just make bad decisions. It's part of our "no consequences for our actions society".

I had a conversation with a 38 year old a few days ago talking about turning her car in because she wants a Forerunner. I said "that's expensive" and she said "yeah, I'll be about $10,000 underwater but I really want it!!!" I mean, there is so much non-sense.

Another employee has six kids, he's constantly asking other employees for money, and he just purchased a brand new F-150 pickup. One of those really nice ones. Brand new!!! It makes no sense. They see something they want, and they buy it, with no regard of "how am I going to afford this down the road".

A friend, who is a single mom with two kids, has always chosen to work only 2-3 days per week so she can stay home with her kids (her mother lives with her and could watch the kids). She admits this is why she does not work more. She lives paycheck to paycheck. I've even offered to help pay for her to go back to school so she could become a nurse but she has turned me down because "that's too much work". Every year, she gets a big fat tax return (child tax credit is how she gets it because she pays zero taxes). Instead of using that tax return for a "rainy day" fund, she blows every bit of it on goofy stuff. A month later and she's telling my wife "I hope they don't come repossess my car". We've tried teaching her to save that money, or pay down debt, but she refuses. As soon as she gets the money, it's gone. It's crazy.

N=1 anecdote.....not at all implying that this represents the majority.


I worked a government job and there was a young girl there who did not have her shit together. Her job was okay, but didn't pay well and there wasn't much future. She wanted to go to school to become a nurse, but couldn't figure out how to afford it.

AND then she also said this:

She married young and divorced almost immediately. The car she was driving was her one her ex picked, so she wanted to buy a new car despite the fact that her car only had 15,000 - 20,000 miles on it. One day I heard her talk about how she found a car that she liked, but it didn't have push button start, and she really wanted push button start (keep in mind, this was 10 years ago). One day I saw her drive in with her new car, a Nissan 350z:





Oh, did I mention, she couldn't afford nursing school?

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-----------------------------Baron Von Speedypants
-----------------------------RunTraining articles here:
http://forum.slowtwitch.com/...runtraining;#1612485

Statistics like this blow my mind, it's crazy to see it in action. Lots of people don't realize how truly good they have it.

Interesting to me, when I first got my current job, there were 4 of us in the workgroup ~ 3 of us in essentially the same salary range plus a supervisor who was in the next range up (about 10% more); of the 3, 1 had been here several years and was topped out already while I got hired somewhere mid-range and the next guy got hired soon after I assume at the next step below where I was. The noteworthy part was that the 2 youngest/lowest-paid among us both lived in bigger houses and drove nicer cars than the 2 senior guys making more, cuz both of our wives also worked while 1 of theirs didn't and the other only worked part-time. In fact the newest/youngest guy was easily the most well-off cuz they didn't have their first kid until later, while the other 3 of us all had 2 each at roughly similar ages (making that a fairly consistent variable by way of comparison).

The former supervisor ended up getting promoted to a manager and makes substantially more now so he can still afford to support his household on the 1 income, while my other buddy had some health problems that limited his work availability and they are living in a world of financial shit now as his wife still makes less than his disability payments (which in turn are only 60% of his former salary). They definitely fall into the pay(disability) check-to-paycheck category now and do a lot of things like barter pet/house-sitting for their neighbors in return for firewood to heat their home (they live in the rural fringe just out of town). He even used to sell weed on the side, but there's no money in that anymore since the rec market went legal in our state.

But is that chicken or egg...?

Sorta joking. I have to admit I buy at least my share of booze and, uh, 'alternative' smokes, but can afford not to feel any interest in the Lotto (although the Mrs considers it a cheap thrill on occasion without having to put up w/ going to a casino). But I can kinda see the allure of 'jackpot' fantasies for those who see that sort of thing played up in the media but have no grasp of the mathematical probabilities involved. That whole system is kinda geared toward preying on those who can't afford it, because those who can afford it aren't in a position to be susceptible to its pull... hence the kinda chicken/egg relationship.

our culture is not very good at financial planning
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Or the day-to-day stuff. Our school has an option for staff to purchase meals made and delivered around lunch time at reasonable prices, as compared to restaurant food. A meal typically ranges from $4-$10, freshly prepared daily. My TA, who is a single mom x4, living with her parents and no working vehicle (despite her outspoken desire to get out of her parents and get said vehicle) takes advantage of this on a daily basis. I'll often see her buying from the vending machines. She'll then make fun of me for making a sandwich and bring in some fruit as my meal. My daily lunch costs less than $1.50 daily. I've talked to her about costs and finances. Some people simply don't want to save.

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Take a short break from ST and read my blog:
http://tri-banter.blogspot.com/

You hijacked that from a different path which was the need for a line of credit. Plus someone had said they lived paycheck to paycheck cause they had no cash to pay a bill, there savings were tied up and it would take time to get it.

My point is just cause you don't have $5000 in cash available to pay for the new engine in your car, if you can buy it take the money from savings and move on your fine, Sure you float it on your cc while you get the cash, but that does not mean your living paycheck to paycheck.

We both agree on the definition.

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Just Triing
Triathlete since 9:56:39 AM EST Aug 20, 2006.
Be kind English is my 2nd language. My primary language is Dave it's a unique evolution of English.

So your at 25% living paycheck to paycheck.. a long ways from 80%

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Just Triing
Triathlete since 9:56:39 AM EST Aug 20, 2006.
Be kind English is my 2nd language. My primary language is Dave it's a unique evolution of English.

Coworkers go to lunch nearly every day and I have brown bagged it 99% of the time in my 28 working years. Between that and doing my own yard work, I have pocketed well north of $75k that has gone to paying off mortgages or investing in retirement or non-retirement. Choices matter.

Fuck that. The only thing that keeps me sane is going out for lunch every day. I drive a base model car to make up for it.

= )

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-----------------------------Baron Von Speedypants
-----------------------------RunTraining articles here:
http://forum.slowtwitch.com/...runtraining;#1612485

I know you are joking but ...

We used to go to lunch every day. Wife and I work for the same company. I'd get two bottles of diet pepsi a day, she'd get two cups of coffee. I really am not that big of a fan of leftovers for lunch but then we did the maths. Calculated off of actual costs bringing cans of pop from home, coffee brewed at home brought in a thermos, and approximate increased costs of grocery bill. And we were very conservative on the cost of lunch bought and generous on how much it cost to pack. Used 20 days/mth to account for days off.

Diet Pepsi - 2 a day x 5 days x $1.60 = $16.00/wk = $64/mth
Coffee - 2 a day x 5 days x $2.00 = $20.00/wk = $80/mth
Lunch - 2 a day x 5days x $10.00 = $100/k = $500/mth

Diet Pepsi - 2 a day x 5 days x $0.23 = $2.30/wk = $9.20/mth
Coffee - 2 a day x 5 days x $0.25 = $2.50/wk = $10/mth
Lunch - 2 a day x 5 days x $3.00 = $30/wk = $120/mth

Costs prior = $644.00
Costs after = $139.20

It has legitimately saved us $500+/mth. That was our second biggest bill behind the mortgage.

ETA - it was actually the pop and coffee savings that made us say, "Fuck me."

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I'm beginning to think that we are much more fucked than I thought.

The lunch math assumes no value to your time though. My husband and I both get lunch at the work cafeteria daily. It’s about $6 but I save about an hour a week not planning and making lunches. As a working mom an hour of my time is quite valuable.

That said I do make my own coffee at home and we’re thankfully not living paycheck to paycheck.

We are good about taking breakfast/lunch for work but when I think about differences between our expenses and my parents when growing up, a big one is eating out. When I was growing up we would once in a blue moon go out for dinner. I would guess my wife and I eat out on average somewhere between 1-2 times per week, sometimes with kids sometimes without. Again just guessing that we are averaging somewhere between $100-150 per week on that.

Just bragging here but:

This summer I bought $1.29 pack of butternut squash seeds, these plants require little to no maintenance, I harvested about 30+ squash in the fall. 30 minute prep for the slow cooker and assuming about $2-$3 of spices, onions & apple sauce I got tons of butternut squash soup. We got dinner and enough lunch leftovers for 2-4 days each.

All being said, My lunches for half of this week cost about $.50 a piece.

Best part, both my young daughters asked for 2nds the night I made it.

It is a 1400 sq ft house, built in 1958, with an unfinished basement, on a small lot. Never been renovated (hell, it had original paint in every room, and 2 pronged electrical outlets... couldn't even plug in a toaster when we took possession). It doesn't get much more 'starter home' then that without being absolute bulldozer bait. It was like an immaculately preserved time capsule from the 50's.

It cost $565,000 when we bought it, 3 years ago.

Spent the remainder of our savings and a year of evenings and weekends turning the unfinished basement in to a rental suite and doing some basic upgrading (heating, perimeter drains, etc, nothing frivolous). Monthly rent from the suite is now $1600 plus utilities. We are located near two colleges so demand for the suite is always there.

The house is worth $875,000 today.

It was definitely a gamble when we bought it, and it led to an incredible amount of stress for a couple of years. Had we waited to save more, we would never have been able to get in.

Again, the whole point of my comment is that $100,000 a year isn't buying you much in a lot of areas.

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Long Chile was a silly place.

Butternut squash soup is one of my standard lunch goes to. Went a bit ape shit last year and grew too many, so most have rotted in my too damp basement by now.

Another good one is potato and leek soup.

If you have the land you can grow a lot of high calorie foods relatively easily. Potatoes, corn, squash, beans are all pretty easy to grow. Add some leaks, onions, garlic, tomatoes and you can grow a decent amount of food.

My goal for this year is to get the gear to process corn and make tortillas.