Cool story bro. I actually have had someone I cared about killed by a drunk driver. Who was an American citizen.

So tell me, what percentage of drunk drivers are citizens vs. illegals?

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_______________________________________________

The rather obvious point is that the drunk driver shouldn't have been in the country to begin with. If we had a serious anti illegal alien policy in this country Jackson would be alive today.

We don't know, because DOJ refuses to keep statistics segregating illegal-versus-legal-immigrant-versus-US citizen crime out in such a manner. But we do know, from recent study, that illegals of a certain age and population cohort are committing crimes at twice the rate of US citizens of the same age and demographic.

It's pretty clear that there are numerous cases of illegals who commit crimes. You can pull up many stories of such on a daily basis. As another poster here has already noted, they shouldn't be here in the first place. Remove this particular illegal immigrant from the picture, and Jackson is still walking around today.

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"Politics is just show business for ugly people."

Post legit stats Kahuna. I'm not taking your word for it.

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_______________________________________________

A lot of crimes are committed by Southern, white, rednecks. So by that logic, if we deported all of them, there would be a serious decrease in crime.

Seem logical to me.

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_______________________________________________

We don't know because DOJ refuses etc. but it's twice as much. Gotcha. You're full of shit.

He was deported twice already, throw out and he's back again, how would this prevented his death? Only option for repeat offenders is prison (which of course costs us 10's thousands yearly).

Would wall saved him, no idea, have to figure out how he got in.

BK got the data from the Crime Prevention Research Center. Funded by John Lott, columnist at Fox News. And actually was 'data' (between quotes because, it's dubious at the most as everything else he's done...check the part referring to him in Freakonomics) was convictions of illegal vs. legal for 15-35yo in Arizona ... the state of the great sheriff Arpaio...That's all you need to know.

BK is the prototype of data cherry picker to substantiate his BS. Not worth engaging because he's just fundamentally intellectually dishonest.

Why not a free (or minimal fee) national ID card? All of Europe uses something like that. It would address many issues related to immigration, voting rights, etc.

Because requiring people to get an ID is racist. Even if they're free.

No shit, that's real here.

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----------------------------------------------------------------

My training

Glad someone else picked up on that!

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who's smarter than you're? i'm!

I'm willing to bet you'd be too afraid to make that point using urban blacks instead of Southern rednecks. The point is that those rednecks have a legal right to be in the U.S. The killers of Jackson, Kate Steinle etc. did not.

Never one to miss an opportunity to politicize a tragedy:


"So disgraceful that a person illegally in our country killed @Colts linebacker Edwin Jackson. This is just one of many such preventable tragedies. We must get the Dems to get tough on the Border, and with illegal immigration, FAST!"
- Donald J Trump

And of course he sent the above Tweet out a few minutes before this afterthought:


"My prayers and best wishes are with the family of Edwin Jackson, a wonderful young man whose life was so senselessly taken. @Colts"

- Donald J Trump

I'm with BK. Any time someone commits a crime, we should round up people with similar characteristics and kick them out of the country. We wouldn't have very many people left, but we'd reduce the likelihood of crime dramatically.

/pink

I hope that you're equally upset about Obama and other Democrats talking about gun control in the aftermath of a mass shooting. They would both be, using your terms, politicizing a tragedy.

This honestly is one of the worst threads I have ever seen on ST. The responses are awful, mean spirited and miss the point entirely. It is ashame when anyone is killed by drunk driving. And when the person is not here legally, there actually are things we can do to prevent it from happening again. Anyone not willing to look at doing those things (within the law) is a moron and idiot. Anyone arguing that american citizens should be deported are morons and idiots.

Francios, actually made a valid point by suggesting an ID card, but as someone else noted here in the great US, that is frowned upon because free cards are too hard for people to get... Stupid argument really, but it is the reality today. Kay immediately jumps to Trump is bad.... Maybe it would be a good time to come up with a new argument to make yourself feel better about yourself....

This thread is embarrassing and I'll take my ball and go home on this one. But maybe, just maybe when there is a valid problem, we should talk about real solutions rather than attacking the messenger just because we don't like the facts....

You're right, many politicians politicize tragedies, though most will spare a thought for the victims before doing so. He has done that a number of times, and he even did it with the Amtrak train crash in WA, Tweeting this:

"The train accident that just occurred in DuPont, WA shows more than ever why our soon to be submitted infrastructure plan must be approved quickly. Seven trillion dollars spent in the Middle East while our roads, bridges, tunnels, railways (and more) crumble! Not for long!"

before sending out this (after getting criticism for not thinking of the victims):

"My thoughts and prayers are with everyone involved in the train accident in DuPont, Washington. Thank you to all of our wonderful First Responders who are on the scene. We are currently monitoring here at the White House."

We may hear more about this case, but for the most part it sounds like immigration law was enforced in this case. The illegal immigrant was deported repeatedly, and was being sought for deportation again. He wasn't granted some kind of amnesty, he wasn't given a driver's license. There's obviously an issue with how he kept getting into the country, but honestly that's not so difficult if you really want to, and a border wall isn't going to prevent that.

---

Slowguy

(insert pithy phrase here...)

I'm not sure those two things are analogous.

The vast majority of mass killings in the US are done with guns. If the vast majority of mass killings in the US were done by illegal immigrants, it would probably be fair to ask if illegal immigration needs to be dealt with for the safety of citizens.

Is it politicizing a tragedy if a primary characteristic of a crime is almost identical to every other tragedy, and is known to play a very significant role? And the people look to the government and law enforcement to keep them safe, shouldn't a president address something that appears to be a systemic safety issue instead of pretending it doesn't exist?

Again, if most DWIs or most mass murders were carried out by immigrants, then it would be prudent to address them as a safety issue.

putting the victims first should be how it's done, but it'd be nice if they at least were honest and accurate directing their disgust.

http://www.wnd.com/...tate-stabbing-spree/
http://thefederalist.com/...io-state-university/

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ΜΟΛΩΝ-ΛΑΒΕ
we're doomed

That's not really why we don't have ID cards. Think about history and the term "your papers, please."

---

----------------------------------
"Go yell at an M&M"

The situations are analogous. Analogies don't have to keep across all possible contexts.

That's also a pretty dumb reason not to have ID cards in 2018. Just because one group of people who also used identification papers did something bad, doesn't mean the ID cards or papers are bad.

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Slowguy

(insert pithy phrase here...)

This is America. If the dumb reason works, we go with it.

The semantics of "analogy" aside, the fundamentals of the two situations are different. If 50 people are killed in a mass shooting, it's reasonable to raise the question of gun safety because guns are involved in nearly all mass killings in the US. If 50 people are killed by illegal immigrants in the last five years, but 500 were killed by non-immigrants, then it's not reasonable to zero in on the immigrants' legal status as a crucial indicator of the public's safety.

One is clearly a safety issue that we as a nation have to address somehow. The other is the cherry picking of a trait of a criminal to suggest all people with that trait are a safety risk because doing so supports your political point of view.

Who can ask you for your papers, and under what circumstances? Who tracks your ID as you move about the country? Do you have to show your papers when you cross state borders? Can authorities set up roadblocks to check your papers?

The fact that these questions can be asked makes it a damned good reason not to have ID cards.

---

----------------------------------
"Go yell at an M&M"

So you are saying a better analogy would be that just even though a few young black men have been killed by cops, the vast majority are killed by other young black men. So we should not be going after the cops.

The fact that you have questions is NOT a "damned good reason" not to have ID cards. It's just a good reason to establish sound policy. We already have social security cards, driver's licenses, etc. They haven't led to fascist Nazi rule, so let's not be unnecessarily and overly dramatic.

---

Slowguy

(insert pithy phrase here...)

If we had a serious anti illegal alien policy in this country Jackson would be alive today.

Imagine how many Americans would be alive if you just deported all the Americans who committed a serious crime.

Do they speak English is whatever fantasyland you live in?

By definition you cannot deport American citizens.

I don't think that's a good analogy at all, and I'm not sure how my quote led you there.

If a drunk white woman had killed Jackson no one would suggest white women ought to have their licenses revoked. If she were Jewish, nobody would suggest Jewish people shouldn't be allowed behind the wheel. Just because this person was an illegal immigrant does not support the idea that illegal immigration is a safety risk. Being an idiot drunk does. If Trump had "used this tragedy" to broach the issue of drunk driving, that's entirely appropriate.

Your cop example is not analogous. Law enforcement officers are not regular citizens - they have wide discretion to use force against the citizenry - and so they should be held to a much higher standard. Any bad cop should be removed, and at the same time efforts should be made to stop black men (or anyone) killing black men (or anyone). There's no reason you can't hold your police force accountable while dealing with other violence issues at the same time.

Whatever. Your points are as cherry picked and as capricious as anybody's points. We all know you've got your position on guns and you look for your data thusly. You aren't venturing out into the world as a blank slate.

I don't think I've cherry picked my points, but I'm open to being convinced otherwise. Of course I'm not a blank slate, but I'd like to think I'm willing to understand someone else's point of view.

Using one obscure aspect of a crime to highlight an agenda is the epitome of cherry picking. That's what Trump did.

Using a primary aspect of a crime to highlight something that is clearly a public safety issue is what Obama did. It served his agenda, but it's tough to argue it's cherry picking.

I don't know really. Europeans actually lived through this during WWII and no one (left or right) has any issue with the concept of a national ID card.

Usually we agree on a lot of things but I don't agree with you at all here. We already have this in place in airports, to enter some federal buildings, when you live close to the border (in El Paso, it's pretty common). I don't think have a national ID card with some regulations as to who can ask you for your ID and where and under what circumstances is particular problematic, provided everyone can easily get one.

For the record in France it is the law to carry a piece of ID with you at all times and the police can ask you for it. The issue usually is with "délit de faciès"...and it is common, but it's not like it doesn't happen without an ID (I'm looking at you Arizona ...)

Some do.

---

----------------------------------
"Go yell at an M&M"

That link doesn't demonstrate that Europeans have any issue with the concept. Additionally, that link provides mostly unsupported speculation at the worst case scenarios. If we have an ID, it will result in a Big Brother constant surveillance no privacy State, and we'll all DIE!!!!!

Like I said, there's no reason to be so overly dramatic,....well except that in many cases the ACLU seems to think their entire reason for existing is to be overly dramatic.

If you oppose a national ID because you think it would be expensive, lead to unnecessary additional bureaucracy, or not solve the issue that concerns people, that's reasonable. If you oppose it because you're too afraid to put the effort into providing adequate policy and protections in place, that's just laziness.

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Slowguy

(insert pithy phrase here...)

Imagine how many Americans would be alive if you just deported all the Americans who committed a serious crime.

Do they speak English is whatever fantasyland you live in?

By definition you cannot deport American citizens.

I really meant it sarcastically to make the broader point that Americans commit far more crime than illegal immigrants. Deporting the illegal immigrants who commit serious crime is not going to change your crime rates but it can serve a political purpose

Deporting, and keeping out illegal aliens (particularly if they commit crimes), will prevent them from committing more crimes (like murder).

The (political) point is that this appears to be a completely avoidable crime/death, if laws had been (better) enforced.

I'd feel similarly if a murder was committed by an American who had been convicted of a crime but released early.

Why do we not mark people with DUI’s licenses in a way that does not allow them to purchase any kind of alcohol. Then sting bars and liquor stores for serving them like we do with minors.

1 year first offense, 5 years second offense and life for third or something?

It seems reasonable if you can’t drink and make good choices that you take a break from drinking.

I don't want illegals clogging the roads while I'm driving drunk!!

Several reasons not to do that.

1. You don't need a license to buy alcohol. Just ID. A passport will do.
2. Drinking isn't the crime. Driving impaired is.
3. The person could surrender their license and never drive again (by their own choice).

Okay 1 is hard
But for 2. Being free isn’t a crime, but if you kill someone driving drunk while you’re free we still take it away.
3. I’m total cool with. So maybe they could choose if they want to surrender their license or get it marked.

I don’t really want to pay for prison I’d rather we just block the root cause as both a way to reduce the issue and deter future infractions. This would I assume not apply in injury or death cases- just people caught where others were not involved.

I'd prefer to see the expanded use of ignition interlocks (at the drivers expense) for DUI offences. Actually, if we really cared, they'd be a standard feature on all new cars.

don't do that ... I like it here

Yup. When a crime is committed if we rounded up similar criminals then we'd reduce crime dramatically.

Ok.

• 
  August 2017 — Martel Valencia-Cortez, a human smuggler from Mexico, was sentenced to eight years in American Prison for assaulting a U.S. Border Patrol agent with a rock; he was also charged with three counts of human smuggling. Valencia-Cortez has been listed as one of the most dangerous human smugglers in the San Diego area. Previous to the most recent charge, Valencia-Cortez served three years in prison for human smuggling charges and was then deported back to Mexico. (U.S. News, August 29, 2017)
  
• 
  August 2017 — Thirty three-year-old nanny Lidia Quilligana, an illegal alien from Ecuador, was convicted and sentenced to fifteen years in prison for the brutal torture and abuse of three small children. Nanny cam footage caught Quilligana burning the hands and legs of the three-year-old child as well as grabbing her by the hair and hitting her in the face. The torture was described as “sustained and depraved cruelty” by the District Attorney, and the judge admitted that the sentence nowhere near fit the heinous nature of the crime. Quilligana cited her own abusive childhood in Ecuador as justification for her actions. (Newstimes, August 22, 2017)
  
• 
  July 2017 — Ariel Cuellar Guizar will face thirty-one years in prison for a collection of charges relating to his activities as a human trafficker. He has been found guilty of trafficking, pimping women out to prostitution, and the rape of a fifteen-year-old girl. Guizar will also be registered as a sex offender for life. (ABC7, July 20, 2017)
  
• 
  June 2017 — Vanessa Hernandez, an illegal alien from Mexico, was sentenced to 100 months in prison for importing nearly 9 pounds of methamphetamine. Hernandez is expected to face deportation proceedings after she is released from prison. (ICE.gov, June 9, 2017)
  
• 
  May 2017 — Illegal alien, Edwin Velasquez Curuchiche, has been sentenced to fifty years in prison after being convicted of two counts of producing child pornography. Specifically, Curuchiche has been charged with sneaking into the room of a six year old girl and filming himself molesting her while she slept. Originally apprehended entering the country illegally in 2013, the Guatemalan national never returned for his immigration hearing and was living in the U.S. illegally at the time he assaulted the child. (Tennessean, May 15, 2017)
  
• 
  May 2017 — An Uzbek refugee serving 25 years behind bars for a plot to kill U.S. military personnel or civilians has been charged with stabbing the warden at the California federal prison where he was serving his sentence, prosecutors said Thursday. (Fox News, May 27, 2017)
  
• 
  May 2017 — Pasqual Mendez, 24, of Morganton, was given an active prison term of 12 to 19 years for felony human trafficking of a child, assault on a female, interfering with emergency communication and statutory rape of a child less than 15 years of age (News Herald, May 23, 2017)
  
• 
  May 2017 — Oscar De La Rosa-Mendoza, 31, of Mission — a Mexican citizen who wasn't lawfully present in the United States — pleaded guilty to driving while intoxicated, a Class B misdemeanor, on May 9. (CBS News, May 18, 2017)
  
• 
  May 2017 — Carlos Santiago-Alvarez, 41, of Holyoke, was sentenced Monday to six to eight years in state prison followed by five years probation in a child rape case. (Mass Live, May 4, 2017)
  
• 
  April 2017 — Ignacio Luque-Verdugo, 32, was convicted Friday in Adams County District Court of first-degree murder and attempted first-degree murder charges. (Denver Channel, April 18, 2017)
  
• 
  April 2017 — Four Charlotte-area members of the El Salvadoran gang MS-13 were convicted Tuesday of federal racketeering charges. (Charlotte Observer, April 18, 2017)
  
• 
  April 2017 — Pablo Gonzales Sanchez will spend at least 18 years in prison for molesting a young teenage girl an estimated 50 times. The girl's mother, an illegal alien, has also been sentenced to prison for not reporting her daughter's allegations of abuse. Both she and Sanchez also were ordered to be added to the Sex Offender Registry. (Shelby Star, April 11, 2017)
  
• 
  April 2017 — Abdirahman P. Sahel was sentenced Monday, April 10, to 20 years in prison for sexually assaulting and terrorizing a young woman nearly four years ago. (Jamestown Sun, April 11, 2017)
  
• 
  April 2017 — Gil Gaxiola was convicted of first-degree attempted murder of a National Park Service employee, as well as armed robbery, three counts of aggravated assault, kidnapping and theft of means of transportation, following an 11-day trial. (Wilcox Range News, April 1, 2017)
  
• 
  March 2017 — Mexican National Miguel Rangel-Arce, 36, has been convicted of trafficking methamphetamine in New Mexico and Navajo Nation land. He will serve 10 years in prison. He is one of eight others who were charged with trafficking drugs between November 2015 and March 2016. When they were apprehended, the police also found 2 1/2 pounds of meth and 10 firearms. (Daily Times, March 8, 2017)
  
• 
  February 2017 — 29-year-old Ricardo Solis Garcia was sentenced to 20-29 years in prison after being convicted of raping a 13-year-old girl in Burke County, North Carolina in March of 2015. Garcia lured the girl into his car on the pretense of giving her a ride but instead took her to a motel room where he forced her to have sex with him. Garcia will be scheduled to be deported after he has served his prison sentence. (WHKY, February 2, 2017)
  
• 
  January 2017 — A Mexican illegally in the United States;, Leonard Pennelas-Escobar, was shot dead in Arizona as he assaulted a police officer by banging his head against cement after Pennelas shot and wounded the officer who had stopped to render assistance after Pennelas driving at a high speed had rolled the car killing the woman passenger.
  
• 
  January 2017 — Alexis De La Rosa Sosa, an illegal alien from Mexico, was sentenced in Texas to four concurrent terms of 12 years in prison for the deaths of two persons as a result of his crashing into their vehicle while driving recklessly and then fleeing the scene of the crime. (Breitbart News, January 11, 2017)
  
• 
  November 2016 — A Mexican illegal alien , Claudia Raquel Herrera Ibarra, pled guilty to possession of a firearm in Laredo Texas and was sentenced to three years imprisonment. She and a partner were caught smuggling weapons to the violent “Los Zetas” narcotics smuggling gang in Mexico. (Breibert News, November 30, 2016)
  
• 
  October 2016 — A previously deported illegal alien is jailed in Michigan after admitting to strangling his girlfriend. Raul Perez had been deported to Mexico in 2004 and again in 2005 after a judge found him guilty of illegal reentry. He also had been in police custody five days before the murder for driving under the influence. The local authorities established his identity from his fingerprints – he was using an assumed name – but according to a news account – there was no request from ICE that he be detained (perhaps because he was detained on a weekend). ICE has now issued a detainer request for whenever Perez is released. (WoodTV, Channel 8, Grand Rapids Mich.)
  
  • 
    September 2016 — Cecil Burrows, an immigrant from India, is due to be deported following more than three years imprisonment for his involvement in orchestrating a gang rape in his home in 2012. (Washington Post, September 25, 2016)
    
  • 
    September 2016 — A British illegal alien, Michael Steven Sandford, pled guilty in Nevada to possession of a gun—that he tried to take from a policeman – and disrupting and official function—a campaign rally by GOP presidential candidate Donald Trump. Sandford said he was attempting to kill the candidate. A psychiatrist found that Sandford was “delusional” according to an AP report. Sentencing guidelines call for 18 to 27 months in prison. (Daily News. September 13, 2016)
    
  • 
    September 2016 — September 2016 – Jorge Elizade Sanches, an illegal alien confessed to the beating death of his common-law spouse in Texas. (12newsnow.tv September 15, 2016)
    
  • 
    September 2016 — September 2016 – Walter Gomes DaSilva, a Brazilian illegal alien, pled guilty to the murder of his teen-aged daughter in Massachusetts. (Boston Herald, September 7, 2016)
    
  • 
    September 2016 — September 2016 – Ecuadorian illegal aliens, Paul Esteban Estrella Villota and his wife Magaly Alemania Malagon Sandoya were respectively sentenced in Texas to six and five years respectively in federal prison for an alien smuggling operation. (Breibart News September 7, 2016)
    
  • 
    August 2016 — Two Salvadoran illegal alien gang members were convicted of murder in the Virginia suburbs of Washington DC. Jose Lopez Torres was convicted of a brutal stabbing death of another MS-13 gang member suspected of being an informer. He was sentenced to life imprisonment plus 20 years. According to the Washington Post, “His conviction was part of a sweeping federal case against Northern Virginia members of the El Salvador-based gang, in which six defendants pleaded guilty and six more were found guilty at trial.” The other just convicted Salvadoran was Jesus Alejandro Chavez, who was sentenced to two life terms plus 10 years for two murders. (Washington Post, August 11, 2016)
    
  • 
    July 2016 — Mauricio Morales-Caceres, an illegal alien from El Salvador was sentenced in Montgomery County, Maryland to life in prison without parole for the stabbing death of another Salvadoran. Morales identified himself as an MS-13 gang member, and testimony indicated he had no remorse for his crime. (Washington Post July 15, 2016)
    
  • 
    June 2016 — Aroldo Castillo-Serrano, a Guatemalan illegal alien, was sentence to 15 years in prison in Ohio for forced labor conspiracy, forced labor, witness tampering and encouraging illegal entry into the country. Castillo paid smugglers to smuggle teen-aged Guatemalan youth into the country under the promise of getting them into school and then put them to work as indentured servants in an egg farm. (Fox News Latino, June 27, 2016)
    
  • 
    June 2016 — A Mexican illegal alien, Juan Carlos Sepulveda-Castro, was sentenced to two and one half years in prison in Idaho for threatening people with an assault rifle. The news report notes that illegal aliens are prohibited from possessing a firearm. (Pocatello TV channel 8)
    
  • 
    June 2016 — Eleven illegal alien members of the Salvadoran MS-13 gang have been convicted of a series of crimes including murder. Jorge Enrique Moreno-Aguilar, Juan Alberto Ortiz-Orellana and Minor Perez, all from Maryland were convicted in mid-May of murder and conspiracy in a racketeering enterprise. (MRC-TV May 24, 2016) New Jersey gang members Santos Reyes-Villatoro, Mario Oliva, Roberto Contreras, Julian Moz-Aguilar, Hugo Palencia, Jose Garcia, Cruz Flores, and Esau Ramirez were convicted in late May in New Jersey of various murder, racketeering and firearms crimes. (MRC-TV, June 2, 2016)
    
  • 
    May 2016 — Illegal aliens, Reinol Vergara and Edson Benitez, pled guilty to second degree murder for the death of a 90 year-old Minnesota man they beat and tied up while they stole from his home, leaving him to bleed to death. (Breibart News May 11, 2016)
    
  • 
    April 2016 — A Salvadoran illegal alien, Mauricio Morales-Caceres, was convicted of first degree murder in Maryland and sentenced to life imprisonment. (Washington Post, April 30, 2016)
    
  • 
    March 2016 — Juan Razo, a Mexican illegal alien living in Painesville, Ohio, agreed to plead guilty to a crime spree that included the shooting death of a 60-year old woman, attempted rape of a 14-year old girl, kidnapping and burglary. His plea was to avoid the death penalty and accept a life sentence. (Cleveland.com, March 4, 2016)
    
  • 
    February 2016 — Three illegal aliens from Mexico were sentenced to federal prison for alien smuggling and illegally re-entering the U.S. after previous deportations. One man was sentenced to 57 months, another will serve 24 months, and the last man was sentenced to serve 12 months and one day in prison. (U.S. Immigration and Customs Enforcement, February 2, 2016)
    
  • 
    January 2016 — An illegal alien from Mexico was sentenced to nearly 6 years in prison after having been convicted for transporting illegal aliens, which resulted in the death of two illegal aliens. (U.S. Immigration and Customs Enforcement, January 20, 2016)
    
  
  

https://fairus.org/...rimes-illegal-aliens

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If there are no dogs in Heaven, then when I die I want to go where they went. - Will Rogers

Emery's Third Coast Triathlon | Tri Wisconsin Triathlon Team | Push Endurance | GLWR

You understand states have provisions for free non-driver IDs, right?

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If there are no dogs in Heaven, then when I die I want to go where they went. - Will Rogers

Emery's Third Coast Triathlon | Tri Wisconsin Triathlon Team | Push Endurance | GLWR

Drivers licences don't identify nationality. Unless a national ID card. You understand that, right?

Lots of pro-illegal-alien/pro-amnesty types completely missed the point of the OP and the first response but that's par for the course. 'But for' the illegal immigrant's illegal presence here in the US, Jackson would still be alive. At any rate, DACA recipients, Dreamers (that's a warm and fuzzy name) and all other illegal immigrants are here... illegally. What are we going to do to regulate their presence here in the US and prevent their entry in the future?

As well, it looks like the next gambit in the game between the White House and the pro-amnesty/pro-illegal crowd is that Donny Two Scoops probably isn't going to extend DACA beyond the March drop-dead date, but also won't make Dreamers a priority for immediate deportation.

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"Politics is just show business for ugly people."

I disagree that the immigration law was enforced in this case. He was arrested in Boone County in early 2017 and should have been deported, but, ICE was not notified. Why? Because they were not legally required to notify ICE. Combine that with sanctuary cities/counties/states and the immigration law seems to be highly ignored in many of these cases.

The Boone County Sheriff's Office said in a news release Tuesday evening that local authorities did not notify ICE of the arrest because they were not legally required to under the circumstances nor did Orrego-Savala's fingerprints trigger an alert when submitted to the Indiana State Police and the FBI.

https://www.indystar.com/...last-year/312173002/

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If there are no dogs in Heaven, then when I die I want to go where they went. - Will Rogers

Emery's Third Coast Triathlon | Tri Wisconsin Triathlon Team | Push Endurance | GLWR

You understand it isn't a driver's license, it is an ID card, right? That's why I used the phrase "free non-driver IDs."

Wow.

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If there are no dogs in Heaven, then when I die I want to go where they went. - Will Rogers

Emery's Third Coast Triathlon | Tri Wisconsin Triathlon Team | Push Endurance | GLWR

You may want to go back to the point I was making about having a national ID card that identifies your nationality (which a DL doesn't do) instead of being a usual fuckwit. Did you learn that in law school?

"Wow".

Oh gee, I dunno, maybe when you:

1. Buy alcohol.
2. Buy tobacco.
3. Open a bank account.
4. Apply for food stamps/welfare/social security.
5. Apply for a job.
6. Buy a house or rent an apartment.
7. Drive/buy/rent a car.
8. Get on an airplane.
9. Get married.
10. Rent a hotel room.

Etc. Etc. Etc.

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If there are no dogs in Heaven, then when I die I want to go where they went. - Will Rogers

Emery's Third Coast Triathlon | Tri Wisconsin Triathlon Team | Push Endurance | GLWR

Or ... and I am just spit balling here ... we could expel those who are not legally here in the first place.

But, that's just kooky talk, isn't it?

---

If there are no dogs in Heaven, then when I die I want to go where they went. - Will Rogers

Emery's Third Coast Triathlon | Tri Wisconsin Triathlon Team | Push Endurance | GLWR

Ok, I'll try this in a slower manner. It. Is. Not. A. Drivers'. License. It. Is. An. ID. Card. Wow.

As to your point about a DL, you can only get a DL if you are legally in the US. An illegal cannot get a DL. Why do we care about nationality? All we care about is being in the US legally and a DL holder must be legal to get a DL. So, if he/she has a DL, he/she is here legally.

I'll quit being a fuckwit when you quit being a dipshit. Don't hold your breath ...

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If there are no dogs in Heaven, then when I die I want to go where they went. - Will Rogers

Emery's Third Coast Triathlon | Tri Wisconsin Triathlon Team | Push Endurance | GLWR

It doesn't identify citizenship. It. Doesn't. Say. If. You're. An. American. Fuckwit.

Those are just examples, where are the stats?

I can post tons of examples of lawyers committing violent crimes but it tells us nothing about what percentage of lawyers are violent criminals.

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who's smarter than you're? i'm!

There you go, being a dipshit again.

Who. Cares. About. Citizenship. If. You. Are. Here. Legally???

The thread is about illegal aliens, not all foreigners. No one here has suggested we should deport all foreigners. The only suggestion has been to deport illegal aliens. If you are a foreigner, legally in the US, you can get a DL (in most states).

We. Don't. Want. Those. People. Deported.

If you are an illegal alien, you cannot get a DL.

We. Want. Those. People. Deported.

So, the DL accomplishes what is necessary - being here legally.

You really are one of the most ignorant posters in the LR and you are on a roll tonight!

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If there are no dogs in Heaven, then when I die I want to go where they went. - Will Rogers

Emery's Third Coast Triathlon | Tri Wisconsin Triathlon Team | Push Endurance | GLWR

You're right, those aren't stats. We should discard that entire site and all the data contained in that link.

Wow.

The LR has really caught a case of stupid tonight.

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If there are no dogs in Heaven, then when I die I want to go where they went. - Will Rogers

Emery's Third Coast Triathlon | Tri Wisconsin Triathlon Team | Push Endurance | GLWR

Lol. Can I hire you as my attorney? You look awesome.

LOL! You couldn't afford me!!!

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If there are no dogs in Heaven, then when I die I want to go where they went. - Will Rogers

Emery's Third Coast Triathlon | Tri Wisconsin Triathlon Team | Push Endurance | GLWR

I'll make you an offer you can't refuse.

You seem upset today. Don't forget your BP medication. Or breathe and relax. 7 more months to wait before football season starts again.

Signed "one of the most ignorant posters of the LR" (A compliment if it's from JSA)

Upset? Nope. Not even a little bit. Good day today.

Your admission of your ignorance is the first step towards recovery. But, I fear you lack the intelligence to do anything about it.

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If there are no dogs in Heaven, then when I die I want to go where they went. - Will Rogers

Emery's Third Coast Triathlon | Tri Wisconsin Triathlon Team | Push Endurance | GLWR

You have a bad day today or something? You're really not trying very hard to play nice.

The issue that was being discussed is a national ID card to help identify citizens. Not sure why you're being such an ass with Francois.

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Slowguy

(insert pithy phrase here...)

Cute.

The responses are awful, mean spirited and miss the point entirely. //

I agree, it really is a story about drunk driving. Who does the driving is irrelevant except for statistical purposes. I would imagine that most the problems are with the under 25 crowd, and especially teenagers in regards to drunk driving. We began targeting this issue a very long time ago, and it has been working on a macro scale, but of course the micro one still exists and is a nightmare for those affected.. People that like to cherry pick a single episode and pretend that it is part of some larger problem, lets just say they are sharpening their axe for who knows what..

I had a great day. Thank you for asking.

The issue isn't citizenship, it is about being in the US legally. We have over 650,000 people here on H-1B visa. Then we have:

I found these three estimates: naturalized citizens, 15.5 million (Census Bureau), LPRs, 12.5 million (DHS), and illegal aliens, 10.8 million (DHS again). All the estimates are for 2009.

https://cis.org/...ze-H1B-Population-US

So, we have over 13M non-citizens legally here just using LPRs and H-1B visas. That is not including the student visas and other legal non-citzens in the US. Add those and was have as many as 22M non-citizens in the US (source: https://www.google.com/...p;client=firefox-b-1).

The issue isn't citizenship, it is being legally in the US. A legal non-citizen can get a DL in most states. An illegal cannot. In addition, we are moving to the REAL-ID soon, which will be required in every state. So, what do we need a national ID to do that the current system cannot?

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If there are no dogs in Heaven, then when I die I want to go where they went. - Will Rogers

Emery's Third Coast Triathlon | Tri Wisconsin Triathlon Team | Push Endurance | GLWR

That's a good and reasonable question. As I mentioned earlier, there are plenty of legitimate reasons to argue against a national ID card.

Still not sure why you decided you needed to be such a dick to Francois.

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Slowguy

(insert pithy phrase here...)

I can confirm this.....

This is a little dated, but, the age is not skewed as much as one may think at first blush:

Drivers between the ages of 21 and 24 cause 34% of all alcohol-impaired deaths. This age group is closely followed by the 25 to 34 year olds, who cause 30% of alcohol-impaired deaths, and then the 35 to 44 year olds, who cause 25% of these fatal accidents.

https://www.scramsystems.com/...th-every-51-minutes/

DD in my state (Wisconsin) is embarrassing. The number of repeat offenders is ridiculous and inexcusable.

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If there are no dogs in Heaven, then when I die I want to go where they went. - Will Rogers

Emery's Third Coast Triathlon | Tri Wisconsin Triathlon Team | Push Endurance | GLWR

I like to keep my pimp hand strong.

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If there are no dogs in Heaven, then when I die I want to go where they went. - Will Rogers

Emery's Third Coast Triathlon | Tri Wisconsin Triathlon Team | Push Endurance | GLWR

Drivers between the ages of 21 and 24 cause 34% of all alcohol-impaired deaths. This age group is closely followed by the 25 to 34 year olds, who cause 30% of alcohol-impaired deaths, and then the 35 to 44 year olds, who cause 25% of these fatal accidents.



Something seems fishy with these numbers, what about the 15 to 20 year olds?? Have to imagine they have a decent % in this stat too, maybe one of the biggest?? I mean there is only 11% left for everyone over 45 and under 21, really??

Ah, you are talking about arrests rather than accidents? If you are talking about arrests, yes, that group has more incidents. 2016 arrest numbers.

https://www.statisticbrain.com/...i-arrests-per-state/

16 – 17 years old1.8 %
18 – 24 25.3%
25 – 29 15%
30 – 34 12.2%
35-39 10.6%
40 – 44 9.8%
45 – 49 8.9%
50 – 54 7.3%
55 – 59 4.6%
60 – 64 2.7%
65 and older1.8 %

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If there are no dogs in Heaven, then when I die I want to go where they went. - Will Rogers

Emery's Third Coast Triathlon | Tri Wisconsin Triathlon Team | Push Endurance | GLWR

How many of those 13,000,000 commit violent crimes?

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who's smarter than you're? i'm!

I cannot understand why people are incapable of understanding the simple fact that illegals who are here illegally driving while illegally drunk and killing people in accidents is completely solvable. Unlike legal citizens who have a legal right to be here.

If the illegals were not here these people would be alive. Making matters worse are states like CA who refuse to notify ICE when illegals are in a jail. They just end up back on the streets.

In fact in CA, one can be prosecuted for reporting an illegal to the feds

My wife and kids were driving home from an event and were hit head-on by a wrong way driver. Illegal, drunk, no insurance, cars totalled. Bad scene all around. This guy was back on the streets after a short stint in county jail. No sweat. I’m sure we will read about him killing some family and I’ll get to read here that it was unavoidable.

In CA, we have this:

http://www.sacbee.com/...rticle163623103.html

From the San Diego Tribune:

“DMV documents reveal that it will cost the state $141.8 million through 2017 to issue licenses to an estimated 1.4 million applicants. At $33, the state will recoup $46.2 million of its costs during that span.“

From freebeacon.com

“California Attorney General Xavier Becerra on Thursday warned employers in the state that they will face legal consequences if they voluntarily provide information on their employees' immigration statuses to federal authorities.“

Why does it matter? Two people are dead at the hand of a guy who should not have been in this country.

This guy held his daughter in his arms as she bled out, crying out "Daddy, help me," at the hands of a guy who should not have been in this country:





Are all crimes committed by illegals? Of course not. Are they even a majority of the crimes? Absolutely not. But, why should we tolerate even one death at the hands of someone here illegally?

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If there are no dogs in Heaven, then when I die I want to go where they went. - Will Rogers

Emery's Third Coast Triathlon | Tri Wisconsin Triathlon Team | Push Endurance | GLWR

I don't get it either.

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If there are no dogs in Heaven, then when I die I want to go where they went. - Will Rogers

Emery's Third Coast Triathlon | Tri Wisconsin Triathlon Team | Push Endurance | GLWR

The issue isn't that people don't understand that. It's that they don't think that the relatively rare instance of an illegal immigrant killing someone in a drunk driving accident should be a driving factor behind immigration policy.

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Slowguy

(insert pithy phrase here...)

It shouldn't and it isn't. But, it certainly is a basis for criticizing those who do not enforce current immigration laws and for pointing out the gaping holes in the current system.

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If there are no dogs in Heaven, then when I die I want to go where they went. - Will Rogers

Emery's Third Coast Triathlon | Tri Wisconsin Triathlon Team | Push Endurance | GLWR

Theory is ICE is going after the easy ones like this. To get their numbers up, while the really bad ones continue to hide out.

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Just Triing
Triathlete since 9:56:39 AM EST Aug 20, 2006.
Be kind English is my 2nd language. My primary language is Dave it's a unique evolution of English.

OK, let's try this again.

If you have a national ID card, and have to carry it, LEOs can assess citizenship status.

If you are not a citizen, and entered as under a temporary immigrant visa (say J1, F1, H1B), you are actually supposed to carry your passport with you, with your visa on it, I94 etc.
If you don't have any of this on you, then it would be legitimate for LEO to question you further.

If you are not a citizen but are a permanent resident, you have to carry your green card with you. If you don't have it, then LEO could question further.

It does not entirely address the issue of checking immigration status, as some non-immigrant enter the country for a day or a few days and are not given an I-94. But a minimal modification to this process, along with a national ID card would then allow LEOs to assess citizenship status and/or immigration status, be it permanent or not.



Also, the issue with a DL is that it is usually given far beyond visa validity. So, I can enter the country legally under a J1 visa, get a DL, and then extend my stay for years.
I'm here legally and I can keep my DL, renew it etc.

OK, let's try this again.

You suggesting that we have a national ID card makes you a racist. Thus, you are a Trump supporter and a Nazi.

End of discussion.

Seriously, that's where we are at here.

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My training

Racist, nazi and Trump supporter....okaaaay. not sure which one is the funniest.
I guess it's logic day in the LR :)

list of anecdotes is not the same as stats. Thanks though

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To reinforce, collection of anecdotes are not data either. Do you really think someone couldn't put together a list 10X that long about all the illegal immigrants who haven't broken any laws (outside of the immigration one) who live productive lives and contribute to society? I bet you wouldn't be convinced by that "data" so why should anyone else be convinced about a few cherry-picked examples?

Here's a decent summary of crime rates from a non-partisan entity (you can find differing point of views from the NYT and the Heritage Foundation, for example, but this is as close to unbiased as probably exists)

http://www.politifact.com/california/statements/2017/aug/03/antonio-villaraigosa/mostly-true-undocumented-immigrants-less-likely-co/

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To go back to this:

many countries in Europe still have national ID cards. They're used to identify citizenship, and that's it. First name, last name, DoB, height, signature, country of citizenship.
With that said, France has changed its law regarding its national ID card. It's still provided, it's free, but it's not mandatory.

As for stal, bent on racism, nazism, and Trump: google teudat zehut...sigh.

Ok, I'll bite. What happens when a Spaniard is legally in France and is asked to show his national ID card?

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If there are no dogs in Heaven, then when I die I want to go where they went. - Will Rogers

Emery's Third Coast Triathlon | Tri Wisconsin Triathlon Team | Push Endurance | GLWR

Nothing. He's legally allowed in. And he can live there and work there etc. Borders have been open for a while nw.

Ok. So, what is the point of the national ID card?

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If there are no dogs in Heaven, then when I die I want to go where they went. - Will Rogers

Emery's Third Coast Triathlon | Tri Wisconsin Triathlon Team | Push Endurance | GLWR

To know if you're there legally. You have to carry it across borders in Europe. If you don't have it, you can get arrested, as you may be there illegally.
It's a lot easier to prove you are here legally if there is a law that requires you to carry a piece of ID that identifies citizenship than it is to prove that you here legally
when you don't carry one and don't have to. I'm not sure exactly what you are not following here.

You might as well ask "what's the point of having a physical driver's license card?" If a cop pulls you over and asks to see your license, and you provide it, because you're legally licensed and allowed to drive, nothing happens. So what's the point? Well obviously, the point of having the actual card is because some people aren't licensed or legally allowed to be driving, and having the card is an easy way of demonstrating that you're allowed to drive.

Similarly, having a national ID card is a quick and easy way of demonstrating that you're a citizen and allowed to be in the country, or vote, or whatever.

Again, whether or not we need that, or whether the cost is worth whatever benefit is gained is a separate question. However, you look silly pretending like you don't understand the purpose of the ID in the first place.

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Slowguy

(insert pithy phrase here...)

So, you think it's ok to kill someone, so long as enough other people like you do nice things?

The point is, none of those crimes should have occurred, because none of the people who committed them should have been in the country in the first place.

I was stating the information as a fact. And to show how ridiculous it is.

Ask Vega or Kay to explain why having/requiring ID's is racist. I'm sure they have received their talking points on it.

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My training

My apologies. It is not always easy to figure out sarcasm especially with someone you haven't talked much with.

Cheap Shot!!! Peas in a pod!!!

Wait a minute. In my example, a Spaniard is legally in France. The Spaniard has a Spanish ID. The Spanish ID does not indicate the Spaniard is legally in France. If the Spaniard was illegally in France, the Spaniard would still have a Spanish ID. How does the Spanish ID prove the Spaniard is legally in France?

I'll turn it back to the US. We have upwards of 22M legal non-citizens in the US. If law enforcement stops one and is shown a Spanish ID, what difference does that make? How does that show the person is or is not legally in the US?

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If there are no dogs in Heaven, then when I die I want to go where they went. - Will Rogers

Emery's Third Coast Triathlon | Tri Wisconsin Triathlon Team | Push Endurance | GLWR

You cannot be Spanish and in France illegally. Borders are open.

If you are a legal immigrant in the US, you are supposed to carry your passport with Visa and I94 or green card at all times.

You are required to have a license to drive and required to physically have it on your person when driving. Operating a vehicle without one is a crime. So, you need to have a DL in your possession when driving.


We have upwards of 22M non-citizens legally in the US. If all 22M had national IDs from their home country, what would that tell us about whether they were legally in the US? I would assume a non-citizen could not get a US ID, but a non-citizen here legally can get a DL. So, the DL tells us the individual is in the country legally. The US ID does not. That's my point. You would have upwards of 22M people in the US who did not have a US ID, but were still here legally. Their lack of possession of a US ID would mean nothing.

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If there are no dogs in Heaven, then when I die I want to go where they went. - Will Rogers

Emery's Third Coast Triathlon | Tri Wisconsin Triathlon Team | Push Endurance | GLWR

Ok, so you agree with me the ID would not tell whether a person was or was not in legally in a country, right?


Then why would the US need a national ID?

Let me try this from another angle. Is the point of a US national ID to prove US citizenship or to prove a person is legally in the US? I will agree a US national ID would prove US citizenship. But, you must agree with me the absence of a US ID would not prove the person was illegally in the US, right?

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If there are no dogs in Heaven, then when I die I want to go where they went. - Will Rogers

Emery's Third Coast Triathlon | Tri Wisconsin Triathlon Team | Push Endurance | GLWR

I guess I'm not expressing myself well.

1. Yes European countries (of the EC) have laws requiring that you carry an ID card with you. If you are anywhere in the EC with your national ID card, it demonstrates you are here legally. So, if I go to Spain with a national ID card from France or Germany and am asked by LEOs to show it, it demonstrates I'm in the country legally. It applies to all the EC. If you don't have an ID card, either you are in this country illegally or you are breaking the law going to a country without your national ID (or passport for that matter. You can see a national ID card as a small more convenient passport that demonstrates citizenship). If you immigrate to Europe from a non EC country you're supposed to carry proof of being there legally.

2. If you are asked by LEO for a national ID card then it shows you are a citizen. If you are not then you are still required to show your Visa or I94 and passport or green card. If you can't show any of this it goes back to the previous point: you are either here illegally or are breaking the law by not carrying your information showing you are here legally eg green card etc.

Ok, now I think we are tracking. So, if the US had a national ID card, then possession would prove you are a citizen. Lack of possession would not show you were in the US illegally, but, it would prompt law enforcement to ask for the other papers required to show you are here legally. Ok. Fair enough.

FWIW, the REAL ID Act of 2005 is pushing in that direction. Whether this improves anything is yet to be seen. But, even though the REAL ID will be the required identification for most things that require ID, it will still not be mandated for all citizens to possess.

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If there are no dogs in Heaven, then when I die I want to go where they went. - Will Rogers

Emery's Third Coast Triathlon | Tri Wisconsin Triathlon Team | Push Endurance | GLWR

Exactly. Took a bit longer than expected but I guess I anticipated that how things are handled elsewhere are known. But yes that's the idea.

Yes. And the proposal that some people have in mind, as I understand it, is that you would be legally required to physically have a national ID, or your appropriate immigration paperwork (if you're a legal immigrant and not a citizen) with you.


I don't think anyone is suggesting that we can or should mandate for other countries to have their own national IDs. The proposal is for American citizens to have a national ID, and legal immigrants to have their appropriate paperwork, and then anyone who didn't have either of those categories of documents would be identifiable as likely not being here legally.

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Slowguy

(insert pithy phrase here...)

If that is the proposal, that's crazy.


Where Francois and I were talking past one another is - I thought his claim was a national ID card would show whether one is or is not in this country illegally. I argued it would show whether a person was a citizen or not, but would not show whether the person was in the US legally. But, he clarified the card would be shown to prove citizenship and, if no card, would prompt law enforcement to request the other required paperwork to show the person was there legally.

This then leads to the other discussion you mentioned - whether such an ID is necessary.

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If there are no dogs in Heaven, then when I die I want to go where they went. - Will Rogers

Emery's Third Coast Triathlon | Tri Wisconsin Triathlon Team | Push Endurance | GLWR

To add to this, I have no idea if this is doable in the US, if this would work, and if it did whether it's a good solution, let alone the best one.
My experience from how this works in Europe is that it the answer is yes to the first two questions but I still have no clue whether it's anywhere near the best solution. At the very least, I think it's starts addressing the problem but I can understand the reluctance.

You do realize that you said: "...all the illegal immigrants who haven't broken any laws..."? An illegal immigrant cannot legally work or obtain welfare benefits, which means they are breaking laws simply by living in the US beyond their illegal immigrant status.

The problem is the bureaucracies benefit from illegals using their services and they do nothing to stop that fraud. I personally investigated a case in 1994 where a Mexican national living in Mexico, not even an illegal alien, was obtaining welfare benefits from 5 different states, and multiple counties/cities in each state. She used drop boxes and other peoples address, and made a trip each month from Tijuana to Matamoros via California, Nevada, Arizona, New Mexico and Texas. All told she made around $10K each month on her trip, enough to buy a new car and fund her tienda in Mexico.

When I contacted those states with my information only one location ever spoke to me, San Antonio, TX. They told me this: We understand your concern but we cannot do anything to stop this abuse. Our job is to give out the benefits and not investigate any fraudulent benefit applicants. You need to speak with the law enforcement agencies over Texas, but I can tell you from my own experiences that they do not have the resources to chase these people down.

The US may as well just flush it all down the toilet. The average empire dies around the 250 year mark, and the US empire is just about there.

Looks like these Dreamers (that really is a cute name) do have a place to return to -- pro-illegal-immigration groups' protestations to the contrary:

"Alex and Daniela Velez have come to peace with the difficult choice they will need to make if Congress doesn't reach a deal for those covered by the Deferred Action for Childhood Arrivals program by its March 5 deadline: They will leave the country. "Alex and I are both over this [DACA situation]," said Daniela, who is 24 years old. "If DACA ends, I will leave with Alex. I will close my business, leave work and school.""

DACA was a program brought into being by former President Obama's pen and phone and executive order. There is no such thing as a DREAM Act, because it never made it into law. But the skilled use of words -- such as "Dreamer" and "Deferred Action for Childhood Arrivals" -- has been effective in glossing over the previous commonly accepted meaning -- by law and tradition -- of illegal immigration.

I'm generally an immigration hardliner (though our immigration system isn't hardline, at least compared to Mexico's and even New Zealand's) and I'm not ashamed or embarrassed by that. We as a nation have a right to safeguard our borders and decide just who can and can't come here and then stay here.

If you come here you need to do it legally and then you need to obey the law while you're here. That you came here illegally should already stand against you. Break the law again -- while you're already here illegally? You go to the head of the line for deportation and possibly a prison sentence here before you're sent packing.

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"Politics is just show business for ugly people."

Why aren't we doing this: Payroll expenses for illegals are not a valid business expense. You want to deduct the cost of an employee, provide the employee's national ID number. Have the IRS crunch the data to identify find anomalies. Make it in businesses' best interest to not hire illegals.

We are basically doing this. Companies who willingly or ignorantly employ illegals do not declare these expenses due to the possibility of an audit or other investigation. The companies that do this often do so b/c they don't pay them overtime or pay them sub-min wage. That's where they get their incentive to employ illegals, knowing the illegal is not going to file a wage claim. Thus, they are not bringing any undue attention to themselves.

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If there are no dogs in Heaven, then when I die I want to go where they went. - Will Rogers

Emery's Third Coast Triathlon | Tri Wisconsin Triathlon Team | Push Endurance | GLWR

 
As to your point about a DL, you can only get a DL if you are legally in the US. An illegal cannot get a DL. Why do we care about nationality? All we care about is being in the US legally and a DL holder must be legal to get a DL. So, if he/she has a DL, he/she is here legally.

Not true.

You can get a DL in California even if not here legally. It's clearly maker as an AB-60 license and only authorizes the person to drive a non-commercial vehicle. It cannot be used in any circumstances as proof of identification. Essentially, it means that (1) if pulled over in California, the driver won't be cited for driving without a license (which is a misdemeanor subject to arrest and impoundment of the vehicle), and more importantly (2) the driver can obtain insurance.

When young and poor, I only maintained the minimum required coverage, which doesn't include uninsured motorist. Sure enough, I was hit by an undocumented, uninsured driver who was entirely at fault, which really sucked. As ridiculous as the California law may sound, illegals are going to drive regardless. I'd much rather they be insured.

I said in the US. I said nothing about California.

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If there are no dogs in Heaven, then when I die I want to go where they went. - Will Rogers

Emery's Third Coast Triathlon | Tri Wisconsin Triathlon Team | Push Endurance | GLWR

fair enough.

Always interesting when you ask someone a question then instruct them how not to answer.

I feel your pain re an illegal with no ID or insurance causing an accident. My wife and kids were hit head on in a wrong way driving accident caused by a very intoxicated illegal. No ID, no insurance, repeat offender, repeat border crosser. FWIW my wife is first generation Hispanic with family here legally through proper immigration system.

The answer is comprehensive immigration reform, including strong cooperation between local authorities and Fed authorities.

Comprehensive includes, but is not limited to:

- enforcement of current immigration laws
- bolster border security (electronic methods, agents, Wall where appropriate, etc)
- fines for employers who hire illegals
- E-Verify
- prison sentences for repeat border crossers
- no benefits for illegals
- reformed immigration system
- solid path to citizenship for those already here
- reformed guest worker program allowing streamlined path for companies needing workers
- National ID
- States not allowed to override or circumvent Federal immigration laws (we CA for examples of what NOT to do).

I agree with you almost completely on your points above, with the exception of prison sentences for repeat crossers (why should the taxpayer pay to incarcerate them, just deport them repeatedly, it's cheaper).

But your sensible proposal is doomed. The lefties, trying to court the Hispanic vote, won't go along with the loss of benefits ("Think of the children!"), the business community won't go along with fines for employers, the righties won't go along with a path to citizenship ("Amnesty for lawbreakers!"), and the libertarians won't go along with National ID.

So we're screwed.

Our current system is reminiscent of the old kids game of Red Rover. If one can penetrate the border and make it into California then they’re good. Get a job, DL, medical care, fake name, fake social and a state legal system committed to supporting, defending and keeping you away from the Feds.

The only reason I suggest repeat crossers go to prison is because without addressing all the incentives to be here illegally they’ll just cross again. Prison would act as a major deterrent for repeat crossers - I agree re the taxpayer cost.

I hear you. If we had your other reforms, though, you probably wouldn't need that one, since most of the incentives for illegal crossing would be gone.

Wow dude. Read much?

illegal immigrants who haven't broken any laws (outside of the immigration one)

And again, your one story, even if true, doesn't make a big picture. The fact is, illegal immigration succeeds because these people do work Americans won't do (like seasonal harvesting) or big companies know they'll do the work cheaper.

Listen, I'm all for an intelligent upgrade of our border control capabilities (a big dumb "wall" solely because some NYC ignoramus pulled it out of his ass does not qualify) and continued prosecution and deportation of illegals who are committing actual crimes. But as you say, there are not enough resources out there and I'm not in favor of massive influxes of money for mass deportations at the expense of more useful programs simply because some a bunch of bigots blame their problems on Mexicans. We've had at least a couple reasonable, bipartisan immigration packages rejected by the right, first the Tea Party and lately by white nationalist (who's only qualification to be in government seems to be that he's a white nationalist) Stephen Miller

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