The semantics of "analogy" aside, the fundamentals of the two situations are different. If 50 people are killed in a mass shooting, it's reasonable to raise the question of gun safety because guns are involved in nearly all mass killings in the US. If 50 people are killed by illegal immigrants in the last five years, but 500 were killed by non-immigrants, then it's not reasonable to zero in on the immigrants' legal status as a crucial indicator of the public's safety.

One is clearly a safety issue that we as a nation have to address somehow. The other is the cherry picking of a trait of a criminal to suggest all people with that trait are a safety risk because doing so supports your political point of view.

Who can ask you for your papers, and under what circumstances? Who tracks your ID as you move about the country? Do you have to show your papers when you cross state borders? Can authorities set up roadblocks to check your papers?

The fact that these questions can be asked makes it a damned good reason not to have ID cards.

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"Go yell at an M&M"

So you are saying a better analogy would be that just even though a few young black men have been killed by cops, the vast majority are killed by other young black men. So we should not be going after the cops.

The fact that you have questions is NOT a "damned good reason" not to have ID cards. It's just a good reason to establish sound policy. We already have social security cards, driver's licenses, etc. They haven't led to fascist Nazi rule, so let's not be unnecessarily and overly dramatic.

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Slowguy

(insert pithy phrase here...)

If we had a serious anti illegal alien policy in this country Jackson would be alive today.

Imagine how many Americans would be alive if you just deported all the Americans who committed a serious crime.

Do they speak English is whatever fantasyland you live in?

By definition you cannot deport American citizens.

I don't think that's a good analogy at all, and I'm not sure how my quote led you there.

If a drunk white woman had killed Jackson no one would suggest white women ought to have their licenses revoked. If she were Jewish, nobody would suggest Jewish people shouldn't be allowed behind the wheel. Just because this person was an illegal immigrant does not support the idea that illegal immigration is a safety risk. Being an idiot drunk does. If Trump had "used this tragedy" to broach the issue of drunk driving, that's entirely appropriate.

Your cop example is not analogous. Law enforcement officers are not regular citizens - they have wide discretion to use force against the citizenry - and so they should be held to a much higher standard. Any bad cop should be removed, and at the same time efforts should be made to stop black men (or anyone) killing black men (or anyone). There's no reason you can't hold your police force accountable while dealing with other violence issues at the same time.

Whatever. Your points are as cherry picked and as capricious as anybody's points. We all know you've got your position on guns and you look for your data thusly. You aren't venturing out into the world as a blank slate.

I don't think I've cherry picked my points, but I'm open to being convinced otherwise. Of course I'm not a blank slate, but I'd like to think I'm willing to understand someone else's point of view.

Using one obscure aspect of a crime to highlight an agenda is the epitome of cherry picking. That's what Trump did.

Using a primary aspect of a crime to highlight something that is clearly a public safety issue is what Obama did. It served his agenda, but it's tough to argue it's cherry picking.

I don't know really. Europeans actually lived through this during WWII and no one (left or right) has any issue with the concept of a national ID card.

Usually we agree on a lot of things but I don't agree with you at all here. We already have this in place in airports, to enter some federal buildings, when you live close to the border (in El Paso, it's pretty common). I don't think have a national ID card with some regulations as to who can ask you for your ID and where and under what circumstances is particular problematic, provided everyone can easily get one.

For the record in France it is the law to carry a piece of ID with you at all times and the police can ask you for it. The issue usually is with "délit de faciès"...and it is common, but it's not like it doesn't happen without an ID (I'm looking at you Arizona ...)

Some do.

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"Go yell at an M&M"

That link doesn't demonstrate that Europeans have any issue with the concept. Additionally, that link provides mostly unsupported speculation at the worst case scenarios. If we have an ID, it will result in a Big Brother constant surveillance no privacy State, and we'll all DIE!!!!!

Like I said, there's no reason to be so overly dramatic,....well except that in many cases the ACLU seems to think their entire reason for existing is to be overly dramatic.

If you oppose a national ID because you think it would be expensive, lead to unnecessary additional bureaucracy, or not solve the issue that concerns people, that's reasonable. If you oppose it because you're too afraid to put the effort into providing adequate policy and protections in place, that's just laziness.

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Slowguy

(insert pithy phrase here...)

Imagine how many Americans would be alive if you just deported all the Americans who committed a serious crime.

Do they speak English is whatever fantasyland you live in?

By definition you cannot deport American citizens.

I really meant it sarcastically to make the broader point that Americans commit far more crime than illegal immigrants. Deporting the illegal immigrants who commit serious crime is not going to change your crime rates but it can serve a political purpose

Deporting, and keeping out illegal aliens (particularly if they commit crimes), will prevent them from committing more crimes (like murder).

The (political) point is that this appears to be a completely avoidable crime/death, if laws had been (better) enforced.

I'd feel similarly if a murder was committed by an American who had been convicted of a crime but released early.

Why do we not mark people with DUI’s licenses in a way that does not allow them to purchase any kind of alcohol. Then sting bars and liquor stores for serving them like we do with minors.

1 year first offense, 5 years second offense and life for third or something?

It seems reasonable if you can’t drink and make good choices that you take a break from drinking.

I don't want illegals clogging the roads while I'm driving drunk!!

Several reasons not to do that.

1. You don't need a license to buy alcohol. Just ID. A passport will do.
2. Drinking isn't the crime. Driving impaired is.
3. The person could surrender their license and never drive again (by their own choice).

Okay 1 is hard
But for 2. Being free isn’t a crime, but if you kill someone driving drunk while you’re free we still take it away.
3. I’m total cool with. So maybe they could choose if they want to surrender their license or get it marked.

I don’t really want to pay for prison I’d rather we just block the root cause as both a way to reduce the issue and deter future infractions. This would I assume not apply in injury or death cases- just people caught where others were not involved.

I'd prefer to see the expanded use of ignition interlocks (at the drivers expense) for DUI offences. Actually, if we really cared, they'd be a standard feature on all new cars.

don't do that ... I like it here

Yup. When a crime is committed if we rounded up similar criminals then we'd reduce crime dramatically.

Ok.

• 
  August 2017 — Martel Valencia-Cortez, a human smuggler from Mexico, was sentenced to eight years in American Prison for assaulting a U.S. Border Patrol agent with a rock; he was also charged with three counts of human smuggling. Valencia-Cortez has been listed as one of the most dangerous human smugglers in the San Diego area. Previous to the most recent charge, Valencia-Cortez served three years in prison for human smuggling charges and was then deported back to Mexico. (U.S. News, August 29, 2017)
  
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  August 2017 — Thirty three-year-old nanny Lidia Quilligana, an illegal alien from Ecuador, was convicted and sentenced to fifteen years in prison for the brutal torture and abuse of three small children. Nanny cam footage caught Quilligana burning the hands and legs of the three-year-old child as well as grabbing her by the hair and hitting her in the face. The torture was described as “sustained and depraved cruelty” by the District Attorney, and the judge admitted that the sentence nowhere near fit the heinous nature of the crime. Quilligana cited her own abusive childhood in Ecuador as justification for her actions. (Newstimes, August 22, 2017)
  
• 
  July 2017 — Ariel Cuellar Guizar will face thirty-one years in prison for a collection of charges relating to his activities as a human trafficker. He has been found guilty of trafficking, pimping women out to prostitution, and the rape of a fifteen-year-old girl. Guizar will also be registered as a sex offender for life. (ABC7, July 20, 2017)
  
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  June 2017 — Vanessa Hernandez, an illegal alien from Mexico, was sentenced to 100 months in prison for importing nearly 9 pounds of methamphetamine. Hernandez is expected to face deportation proceedings after she is released from prison. (ICE.gov, June 9, 2017)
  
• 
  May 2017 — Illegal alien, Edwin Velasquez Curuchiche, has been sentenced to fifty years in prison after being convicted of two counts of producing child pornography. Specifically, Curuchiche has been charged with sneaking into the room of a six year old girl and filming himself molesting her while she slept. Originally apprehended entering the country illegally in 2013, the Guatemalan national never returned for his immigration hearing and was living in the U.S. illegally at the time he assaulted the child. (Tennessean, May 15, 2017)
  
• 
  May 2017 — An Uzbek refugee serving 25 years behind bars for a plot to kill U.S. military personnel or civilians has been charged with stabbing the warden at the California federal prison where he was serving his sentence, prosecutors said Thursday. (Fox News, May 27, 2017)
  
• 
  May 2017 — Pasqual Mendez, 24, of Morganton, was given an active prison term of 12 to 19 years for felony human trafficking of a child, assault on a female, interfering with emergency communication and statutory rape of a child less than 15 years of age (News Herald, May 23, 2017)
  
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  May 2017 — Oscar De La Rosa-Mendoza, 31, of Mission — a Mexican citizen who wasn't lawfully present in the United States — pleaded guilty to driving while intoxicated, a Class B misdemeanor, on May 9. (CBS News, May 18, 2017)
  
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  May 2017 — Carlos Santiago-Alvarez, 41, of Holyoke, was sentenced Monday to six to eight years in state prison followed by five years probation in a child rape case. (Mass Live, May 4, 2017)
  
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  April 2017 — Ignacio Luque-Verdugo, 32, was convicted Friday in Adams County District Court of first-degree murder and attempted first-degree murder charges. (Denver Channel, April 18, 2017)
  
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  April 2017 — Four Charlotte-area members of the El Salvadoran gang MS-13 were convicted Tuesday of federal racketeering charges. (Charlotte Observer, April 18, 2017)
  
• 
  April 2017 — Pablo Gonzales Sanchez will spend at least 18 years in prison for molesting a young teenage girl an estimated 50 times. The girl's mother, an illegal alien, has also been sentenced to prison for not reporting her daughter's allegations of abuse. Both she and Sanchez also were ordered to be added to the Sex Offender Registry. (Shelby Star, April 11, 2017)
  
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  April 2017 — Abdirahman P. Sahel was sentenced Monday, April 10, to 20 years in prison for sexually assaulting and terrorizing a young woman nearly four years ago. (Jamestown Sun, April 11, 2017)
  
• 
  April 2017 — Gil Gaxiola was convicted of first-degree attempted murder of a National Park Service employee, as well as armed robbery, three counts of aggravated assault, kidnapping and theft of means of transportation, following an 11-day trial. (Wilcox Range News, April 1, 2017)
  
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  March 2017 — Mexican National Miguel Rangel-Arce, 36, has been convicted of trafficking methamphetamine in New Mexico and Navajo Nation land. He will serve 10 years in prison. He is one of eight others who were charged with trafficking drugs between November 2015 and March 2016. When they were apprehended, the police also found 2 1/2 pounds of meth and 10 firearms. (Daily Times, March 8, 2017)
  
• 
  February 2017 — 29-year-old Ricardo Solis Garcia was sentenced to 20-29 years in prison after being convicted of raping a 13-year-old girl in Burke County, North Carolina in March of 2015. Garcia lured the girl into his car on the pretense of giving her a ride but instead took her to a motel room where he forced her to have sex with him. Garcia will be scheduled to be deported after he has served his prison sentence. (WHKY, February 2, 2017)
  
• 
  January 2017 — A Mexican illegally in the United States;, Leonard Pennelas-Escobar, was shot dead in Arizona as he assaulted a police officer by banging his head against cement after Pennelas shot and wounded the officer who had stopped to render assistance after Pennelas driving at a high speed had rolled the car killing the woman passenger.
  
• 
  January 2017 — Alexis De La Rosa Sosa, an illegal alien from Mexico, was sentenced in Texas to four concurrent terms of 12 years in prison for the deaths of two persons as a result of his crashing into their vehicle while driving recklessly and then fleeing the scene of the crime. (Breitbart News, January 11, 2017)
  
• 
  November 2016 — A Mexican illegal alien , Claudia Raquel Herrera Ibarra, pled guilty to possession of a firearm in Laredo Texas and was sentenced to three years imprisonment. She and a partner were caught smuggling weapons to the violent “Los Zetas” narcotics smuggling gang in Mexico. (Breibert News, November 30, 2016)
  
• 
  October 2016 — A previously deported illegal alien is jailed in Michigan after admitting to strangling his girlfriend. Raul Perez had been deported to Mexico in 2004 and again in 2005 after a judge found him guilty of illegal reentry. He also had been in police custody five days before the murder for driving under the influence. The local authorities established his identity from his fingerprints – he was using an assumed name – but according to a news account – there was no request from ICE that he be detained (perhaps because he was detained on a weekend). ICE has now issued a detainer request for whenever Perez is released. (WoodTV, Channel 8, Grand Rapids Mich.)
  
  • 
    September 2016 — Cecil Burrows, an immigrant from India, is due to be deported following more than three years imprisonment for his involvement in orchestrating a gang rape in his home in 2012. (Washington Post, September 25, 2016)
    
  • 
    September 2016 — A British illegal alien, Michael Steven Sandford, pled guilty in Nevada to possession of a gun—that he tried to take from a policeman – and disrupting and official function—a campaign rally by GOP presidential candidate Donald Trump. Sandford said he was attempting to kill the candidate. A psychiatrist found that Sandford was “delusional” according to an AP report. Sentencing guidelines call for 18 to 27 months in prison. (Daily News. September 13, 2016)
    
  • 
    September 2016 — September 2016 – Jorge Elizade Sanches, an illegal alien confessed to the beating death of his common-law spouse in Texas. (12newsnow.tv September 15, 2016)
    
  • 
    September 2016 — September 2016 – Walter Gomes DaSilva, a Brazilian illegal alien, pled guilty to the murder of his teen-aged daughter in Massachusetts. (Boston Herald, September 7, 2016)
    
  • 
    September 2016 — September 2016 – Ecuadorian illegal aliens, Paul Esteban Estrella Villota and his wife Magaly Alemania Malagon Sandoya were respectively sentenced in Texas to six and five years respectively in federal prison for an alien smuggling operation. (Breibart News September 7, 2016)
    
  • 
    August 2016 — Two Salvadoran illegal alien gang members were convicted of murder in the Virginia suburbs of Washington DC. Jose Lopez Torres was convicted of a brutal stabbing death of another MS-13 gang member suspected of being an informer. He was sentenced to life imprisonment plus 20 years. According to the Washington Post, “His conviction was part of a sweeping federal case against Northern Virginia members of the El Salvador-based gang, in which six defendants pleaded guilty and six more were found guilty at trial.” The other just convicted Salvadoran was Jesus Alejandro Chavez, who was sentenced to two life terms plus 10 years for two murders. (Washington Post, August 11, 2016)
    
  • 
    July 2016 — Mauricio Morales-Caceres, an illegal alien from El Salvador was sentenced in Montgomery County, Maryland to life in prison without parole for the stabbing death of another Salvadoran. Morales identified himself as an MS-13 gang member, and testimony indicated he had no remorse for his crime. (Washington Post July 15, 2016)
    
  • 
    June 2016 — Aroldo Castillo-Serrano, a Guatemalan illegal alien, was sentence to 15 years in prison in Ohio for forced labor conspiracy, forced labor, witness tampering and encouraging illegal entry into the country. Castillo paid smugglers to smuggle teen-aged Guatemalan youth into the country under the promise of getting them into school and then put them to work as indentured servants in an egg farm. (Fox News Latino, June 27, 2016)
    
  • 
    June 2016 — A Mexican illegal alien, Juan Carlos Sepulveda-Castro, was sentenced to two and one half years in prison in Idaho for threatening people with an assault rifle. The news report notes that illegal aliens are prohibited from possessing a firearm. (Pocatello TV channel 8)
    
  • 
    June 2016 — Eleven illegal alien members of the Salvadoran MS-13 gang have been convicted of a series of crimes including murder. Jorge Enrique Moreno-Aguilar, Juan Alberto Ortiz-Orellana and Minor Perez, all from Maryland were convicted in mid-May of murder and conspiracy in a racketeering enterprise. (MRC-TV May 24, 2016) New Jersey gang members Santos Reyes-Villatoro, Mario Oliva, Roberto Contreras, Julian Moz-Aguilar, Hugo Palencia, Jose Garcia, Cruz Flores, and Esau Ramirez were convicted in late May in New Jersey of various murder, racketeering and firearms crimes. (MRC-TV, June 2, 2016)
    
  • 
    May 2016 — Illegal aliens, Reinol Vergara and Edson Benitez, pled guilty to second degree murder for the death of a 90 year-old Minnesota man they beat and tied up while they stole from his home, leaving him to bleed to death. (Breibart News May 11, 2016)
    
  • 
    April 2016 — A Salvadoran illegal alien, Mauricio Morales-Caceres, was convicted of first degree murder in Maryland and sentenced to life imprisonment. (Washington Post, April 30, 2016)
    
  • 
    March 2016 — Juan Razo, a Mexican illegal alien living in Painesville, Ohio, agreed to plead guilty to a crime spree that included the shooting death of a 60-year old woman, attempted rape of a 14-year old girl, kidnapping and burglary. His plea was to avoid the death penalty and accept a life sentence. (Cleveland.com, March 4, 2016)
    
  • 
    February 2016 — Three illegal aliens from Mexico were sentenced to federal prison for alien smuggling and illegally re-entering the U.S. after previous deportations. One man was sentenced to 57 months, another will serve 24 months, and the last man was sentenced to serve 12 months and one day in prison. (U.S. Immigration and Customs Enforcement, February 2, 2016)
    
  • 
    January 2016 — An illegal alien from Mexico was sentenced to nearly 6 years in prison after having been convicted for transporting illegal aliens, which resulted in the death of two illegal aliens. (U.S. Immigration and Customs Enforcement, January 20, 2016)
    
  
  

https://fairus.org/...rimes-illegal-aliens

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If there are no dogs in Heaven, then when I die I want to go where they went. - Will Rogers

Emery's Third Coast Triathlon | Tri Wisconsin Triathlon Team | Push Endurance | GLWR

You understand states have provisions for free non-driver IDs, right?

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If there are no dogs in Heaven, then when I die I want to go where they went. - Will Rogers

Emery's Third Coast Triathlon | Tri Wisconsin Triathlon Team | Push Endurance | GLWR

Drivers licences don't identify nationality. Unless a national ID card. You understand that, right?