In reality, your $15 pays the salaries for USAT staff and helps fund their olympic development program. What do you get? Pretty much nothing, although they will tell you that their sanctioned events are safer/better because they comply with their standards. And wait, there's more! If you race sanctioned events, then that event is numerically scored; and providing you do at least 3 triathlons in a year, then you will get a USAT Ranking at the end of the year. Don't you feel better now? And there are some folks on this forum who think that a USAT Ranking is the bees knees.

Pretty much nothing

-----

Except you get entry into the membership event that you aren't a member of that you are bitching about having to pay to enter, lol.

ETA: that's all you get. entry into the race and whatever medical coverage that comes with the race.

This isn't some new concept. Go to local YMCA/pool/lifetime and tell them you are a non member and see what they say when you want to enter...pay a fee or don't enter.

---

Brooks Doughtie, M.S.
Exercise Physiology
-USAT Level II

You also get supplemental medical insurance in the case you need it.

https://www.teamusa.org/...xcess-Medical-Policy

agreeing with the above. our local series dropped USAT when the one-day fee moved from $12.


I've spoken with the RD. he said a handful of people complained about the lack of points but other than that, happy faces that the races are a couple of bucks cheaper.

I think you get great overall value.

---

Dave Campbell | Facebook | @DaveECampbell | h2ofun@h2ofun.net

Boom Nutrition code 19F4Y3 $5 off 24 pack box | Bionic Runner | PowerCranks | Velotron | Spruzzamist

Lions don't lose sleep worrying about the sheep

If you actually join USAT ($45) instead of paying the $15 per event, you get a bunch of discounts that offset that cost a bit. Why do you pay Active.com a "handling fee"? Because you have to.

---

I'm closer to the feathered end of the spear than the point.

Whenever I register for a large triathlon, I get hit with a $15 fee for a one day membership to USAT.


You have to pay the salaries of the people who are hired to collect money from you.

Oh come now. I renewed last night (now $50) so I can register for a race next July. The discounts aren't worth spit because you can find equal or better discounts from those same services without being a member.

Dave, saying it is so doesn't make it so. It is abundantly clear that you are enamored with all things USAT, but please make your case to the OP. In this case, what is the value to an individual paying a ONE DAY $15 membership fee. What great things does USAT offer the occasional athlete who races one or two sanctioned events per year? I contend that it is just a freaking gouge.

Sounds good in practice, but wait till you try and collect. I've read a few stories about that.

I can tell you that if you crash you get supplimental insurance. This will cover a portion of your medical deductibles.
I crashed in a small USAT sanationed race, and I have very good insurance (PPO, through my job fortune 100 company). For an ambulance ride, paramedics (yes I got double dinged on this because of the location of the crash / race) emergency room, accompaning xrays, and Dr appts for a dislocated collarbone I was out of pocket about a 1000 to 1500 (it has been a few years). USAT covered a very large chunk of this about 75% or so if memory serves me right.
At this point I have no issue with the USAT charge going forward.

---

2017 Cervelo P2
2017 Cervelo S2
itraininla.com
#itraininla

It is insurance for the race director/event. In reality, the USAT is in the insurance business . . . that is the economic engine that drives the organization. Certainly there are benefits - Race Directors would not be able to, in general, easily, adequately, and economically obtain insurance without the USAT. There are flaws too :-)!

---

David
* Ironman for Life! (Blog) * IM Everyday Hero Video * Daggett Shuler Law *
Disclaimer: I have personal and professional relationships with many athletes, vendors, and organizations in the triathlon world.

Here's a link to their FAQ regarding this question.

https://www.teamusa.org/usa-triathlon/membership-services/membership-faq


There are also member discounts, although I've not found any value in those personally... i.e. I can rent a car cheaper with my wife's corporate account, book hotel rooms for less, etc.


That said, I've noted when I do a cycling race I have to pay a one day race fee of ~$12 for a one day. For swimming I think the fee exceeds $50 which has kept me away from some swimming events.


I look at is as a fee to compete since most of the races I do are USAT events.

It is so easy for you and others to just attack, attack attack. I bet many would attack if I made the comment the sun was coming up tomorrow.

So just do not do anything USAT is involved with. Do you really think our sport would be where it is at without USAT? No way!!!

Again, you can live you life just bitching. I am trying to do a better job being thankful I am even alive and able to compete in this sport.

---

Dave Campbell | Facebook | @DaveECampbell | h2ofun@h2ofun.net

Boom Nutrition code 19F4Y3 $5 off 24 pack box | Bionic Runner | PowerCranks | Velotron | Spruzzamist

Lions don't lose sleep worrying about the sheep

You do get a little insurance but it's not really about you ;-).

The primary benefits of going with USAT (or any of the other sanctioning bodies in other sports) are some decent insurance for the race promoters and the benefits to them of putting on a sanctioned race which can make it easier to attract a larger number of entries. Race promoters check those boxes because those two things make it easier, potentially more profitable (or at least less of a loss) and safer (i.e. not putting the house on the line) to put on a race.

So, in theory, your 'get" is a race to go to.

Measurement tools to re-calibrate the swim in half. Or less.

Your response is called a deflection...i.e., you are not answering the question. The OP is asking what you get for your $15 one day membership. Your answer is that you get a wonderful, better sport which means...what? And is there any level at which you would agree that the one day fee is too much?

i really wish if they are going to classify a race as sanctioned, the benefit we get back is the course is marked as certified standard distance. for instance here we have a race listed as Olympic (tri rock sd), but really is 1500m swim, 22mi bike, and 5.5 run . then there is another race coming up marked as international (which should be 1k / 30k/ 10k) but will be 1k / 29k / 9k . sorry but and excuse for not makin a course proper distance is lame. usatf certification gets it right..

Not a deflection. No matter what a person says, you would still argue against it.

Been plenty of posts in this, and many others threads giving folks opinions to why they think it is positive, but you continue to always ask but why. So no answer will ever make you happy.

---

Dave Campbell | Facebook | @DaveECampbell | h2ofun@h2ofun.net

Boom Nutrition code 19F4Y3 $5 off 24 pack box | Bionic Runner | PowerCranks | Velotron | Spruzzamist

Lions don't lose sleep worrying about the sheep

I'm not arguing Dave, I'm simply telling you that you have not addressed the OP's question. And now your response suggests that it is my question. Go back to the top...see who posted the question. Then RTFQ (read the fucking question)...then ATFQ (answer the fucking question). Otherwise, do not post.

I've made a successful claim on it. I was injured during a race, with a $20k ER bill. My insurance covered 18. The supplemental covered all but $200 of the balance.

---

Attacking this day with enthusiasm unknown to mankind.

Score 1 for the insurance!

gold. thank you.

The only benefit is the insurance. I had a medical emergency in a race, and I received significant EMT assistance, medical care, ambulance transport and some follow up and my out of pocket was $0. Could have been in the thousands, so at $15 a pop, I'm still ahead.

Even for some if "only", boy would one be happy if one needed it, which hopefully is never, which allows so many to say there is no benefit.

---

Dave Campbell | Facebook | @DaveECampbell | h2ofun@h2ofun.net

Boom Nutrition code 19F4Y3 $5 off 24 pack box | Bionic Runner | PowerCranks | Velotron | Spruzzamist

Lions don't lose sleep worrying about the sheep

It's like Obamacare for triathlon?

As a member of USAT, I get the satisfaction of knowing that some of my $$'s are used to support our elite athletes. In my opinion, that's good for the sport.

I also know that some of my membership $$'s are used to support our up and coming developmental athletes..again, I believe that's good for the support.

I'm not "'deflecting" anything. Those USAT initiatives are important to me....as well as insurance, discounts, rankings...etc.

---

"Good genes are not a requirement, just the obsession to beat ones brains out daily"...the Griz

Paid me over $2000 after a small deductible following a crash in a race in 2015. Far as I'm concerned that made every annual due worth it. Process was straightforward and easy.

ETA this wa courtesy of gymrat, I didnt know about it until after the crash

I don't recommend crashing as a means of using the benefits but the way I see it I've gotten 44 years or so of membership dues out of it

in my opinion:

1. the $15 is several multiples of the raw cost of the insurance. but USAT vehemently disagrees with the characterization of "insurance". they call it "membership". dave obviously feels the value of the membership is worth the cost. others don't.

2. the insurance (for race directors) is proven good, and one reason RDs are fain to switch is that USAT's insurance always defends, always pays.

3. the medical payments, and i think it's capped at $75,000, is variously good or not depending on whether you have insurance. this insurance is secondary to your medical insurance, so, AFTER your medical insurance has paid everything it's going to pay you then invoke this. when i crashed in a USA cycling race, and after a LOT of hassle, which really i just went thru as an experiment, the USAC medical provision paid about $200, while I paid several thousand in deductible and co-insurance the USAC policy didn't pay. this is because the USAC policy would not pay more than the primary insurance i kept, that is, they treated my deductible and co-pay on my BX policy as it if was the same deductible/co-pay on the USAC medical paymts policy. in short, it was horrible insurance. is USAT's better? i don't know. but one thing i do know: it's REALLY good to have if you have no insurance, because then it's primary, and that's way better than nothing.

4. here's what bothers me about the $15 one-day: it's designed as if it's goal was to make sure our sport gentrifies, doesn't grow, and selectively punishes newcomers and the RDs who want to put on newcomer races. by definition newcomers aren't annual members. newcomers are likely to enter cheaper, shorter, smaller events. the incremental cost of BOTH the full-service registration company and the $15 one-day relative to the overall cost of the day is high. I feel USAT, now especially, in a declining market, should address this.

5. i don't get the sense there is any thought given to "rating" or adjusting the fee so that it's scaled to the risk. to me, we ought to consider identifying the risk. is the risk identical regardless of whether it's an in-city race or a rural race? whether it's a 12hr race, 6hr, or 1hr? i don't know. but it seems to me that's a consideration.

---

Dan Empfield
aka Slowman

I assume you are an annual member. I am an annual member...paid up through 30 April 2019. The OP is asking about ONE day memberships.

Every race that I know, USAT sanctioned or not, are required to get permissions or permits either from the govt or from the private owners that own the land where the races are taking place. As condition of that, they are required to show proof of insurance. So, if every race, USAT sanctioned or not, are required to carry insurance, how is it a USAT benefit if it does go beyond what every other non-sanctioned races are doing? Your $15 USAT fees give you access to the same insurance that non-sanctioned races charge you $0 for.

Your argument can be valid if few or none of the non-sanctioned races do not carry insurance.

---

__________________________________________________________________________
My marathon PR is "under three, high twos. I had a two hour and fifty-something."

I'm not sure what's more discouraging: a member of this forum not being a USAT annual member, or the suggesting that giving to our sport's organizing body is a waste. What do you get out of it? You get to be a member our community.

Ooh, well written. I never thought about a scaled system before.

Dan, come on, 15 bucks. I see this attitude by many just like the crap going on with insurance. So many want it basically for free. So many do not want to pay anything until they get hurt, then they want the insurance, and basically for free.

Insurance is risk management. If you want what a USAT race provides with insurance, 15 bucks is cheap to pay. If you do not like it, go do another race. Pretty simple. I have plenty of races in my area I can do, both USAT and non USAT. I only do USAT races.

I know when an RD was putting on some new races I asked why not USAT. He said because folks did not want. I got him to do a FB poll, and guess what, the majority came back wanting it USAT, so he ate crow and made them USAT.

There are times you put in for the better of the whole. I sure do not like paying my taxes and see so much of it wasted, but, ....

---

Dave Campbell | Facebook | @DaveECampbell | h2ofun@h2ofun.net

Boom Nutrition code 19F4Y3 $5 off 24 pack box | Bionic Runner | PowerCranks | Velotron | Spruzzamist

Lions don't lose sleep worrying about the sheep

i'm not suggesting free. i just don't think an extra $22 beyond a $45 entry for a pool swim tri is good for business. and, in fact, we have a declining market. so, i'm more interested in seeing the market grow than in trying to convince people of the value of the $22 (or whatever the charge) they're paying for active + usat.


exactly. and that's what people are doing. pretty simple. they're either going to non-sanctioned races or they're going to races out of the sport. i don't mind if you don't mind.


i think that's fine. i don't fault you that. is it okay if others choose a path different from yours?

---

Dan Empfield
aka Slowman

What do you get out of it? You get to be a member our community.

Well, if we get to be a member of a community, we should all pay way more...

I get to be a member of the running community, running anything from a Turkey Trot to a marathon, without having to incur USTF fees like I do with USAT fees.

---

__________________________________________________________________________
My marathon PR is "under three, high twos. I had a two hour and fifty-something."

Come on it's 15 bucks.

----

Reality we are all really *reasonably* talking about $3-$5 difference not $15. No one can say it should be free (if you do, your just being obtuse), so my guess is an reasonable person would say $8. So let's meet in the middle of what you think you should pay and what you have to pay and instead of $15 it's $11. So it's $3 or $4 more than what you think you should pay.


So then you look at issues like dan brings up. With declining numbers would they get more racers if it was $11 or $7? But $7 means they have to double entries to "make the same" that they currently value it.

So my question to Huff is what should 1 day fee be? $5 $7 $9 $12 ???

---

Brooks Doughtie, M.S.
Exercise Physiology
-USAT Level II

Lots of WTC events which I have no interest. But I am not on ST all the time bashing WTC.

I support folks getting off their butts to do whatever gets them exercise.

BUT, it just gets SO old having a few do nothing but bad mouth our sport, which bad mouthing WTC or USAT or ITU implies just do something else.

Your numbers are covered by most taking one trip to starbucks, which I think is a total rip off. So we can all justify what things cost one way or another.

---

Dave Campbell | Facebook | @DaveECampbell | h2ofun@h2ofun.net

Boom Nutrition code 19F4Y3 $5 off 24 pack box | Bionic Runner | PowerCranks | Velotron | Spruzzamist

Lions don't lose sleep worrying about the sheep

There are plenty of races that are not USAT that you can do. I assume they are some running races you have to be a member of USTF to compete?

---

Dave Campbell | Facebook | @DaveECampbell | h2ofun@h2ofun.net

Boom Nutrition code 19F4Y3 $5 off 24 pack box | Bionic Runner | PowerCranks | Velotron | Spruzzamist

Lions don't lose sleep worrying about the sheep

i'm with you, brother. and if i was bad mouthing any of those entities you'd have a great point! what i'm suggesting is that USAT consider a variable rate for one-day membership based on risk and race cost, and i think in so doing there could be an easier path whereby an RD could see his way clear to put on his first-timer race without adding 50 percent to the base cost for insurance/registration that, in their raw form, cost a quarter of the fees charged.

i think we all want the same thing, which is to be charged an amount commensurate with the service delivered. for someone brand new to the sport, his first taste, it would be nice if it was a good taste.

the alternative, dave, is that people continue to leave, or to not ever enter in the first place. if we keep doing what we're doing, we'll keep getting what we're getting. so, i have ZERO problem with the $50 annual. i have no problem with a $15 one-day when it's warranted. i just don't think it's warranted for low-cost, first-timer events. i don't think i'm bashing when i say this; i think i'm helping when i say this.

---

Dan Empfield
aka Slowman

Thank you for proving my point, which is, you can "get to be a member our community" without having to pay a $15 USAT fee

---

__________________________________________________________________________
My marathon PR is "under three, high twos. I had a two hour and fifty-something."

I totally agree that USAT needs to look at are their ways to try and get more folks into the sport, which means more money in the kitty, which means, I am not sure. :)

I am seeing USAT trying to different things to do this. One I saw was a TEamUSA ambassador program.

But, I am not convinced that lower costs will do much. Yes, folks always like to bitch about costs. But since I am racing or helping at events just about every weekend, and talk to lots of folks, I sure am not hearing anyone say they stopped doing races directly because of costs. Have you and can they prove it?
I just see the normal one and out stuff. I see too many jumping into full, getting burned out, hurt or divorced. I just see most who want to be social, like color runs,etc. and have no desire to be competitive. I see that we as adult mentors have done very little to support and encourage younger folks to be active, vs just hand them an Ipad to keep them quiet.

How many grandparents do you see racing with their grandkids as an example? I do lots of this and basically see none. Most parents I see could not run a mile to save their lives, so how are they role models?

So yes, I think any sport with declining numbers needs to see if there are ways to start growing it again. I just do not see entry fee being the biggest item but nothing wrong with us have different opinions.

Too bad we never crossed paths to race this season. Still have Donner coming up. :)

---

Dave Campbell | Facebook | @DaveECampbell | h2ofun@h2ofun.net

Boom Nutrition code 19F4Y3 $5 off 24 pack box | Bionic Runner | PowerCranks | Velotron | Spruzzamist

Lions don't lose sleep worrying about the sheep

Only for scoring in prize money competitions. As for triathlons with no USAt sanctions, im sure they still need insurance to cover their ass. So some people just dont want insurance since they have their own , or are against the capitalist nature if insurance and do not want to support

adding a real world example to Dan, our local series has the Try-It Tri. as you can imagine, its an easy sprint aimed at new people. I think its .25 - 10 - 2, with the bike entirely in a park. you can sign up in the spring for around $50-$60. its popular and does draw new people. the kids version was cheaper and extremely popular.


a $15 USAT Fee is excessive for such a race. the RD knows his clientele and does not subscribe.

"Too bad we never crossed paths to race this season."

monty and i were looking at tinley's new location just this morning, at huntington lake (china peak ski resort). i've got a run problem. but i can hoof it for 2 or 3 miles, i think. it's in september. thinking about that.

---

Dan Empfield
aka Slowman

Just over a year ago I did my first tri, a short sprint that was part of a local series.

I remember finding out about the fee, felt like a bit of a scam, but as I was thinking of doing the series I decided to just get the annual and be done with it.

I'm glad I did, the scoring system & the oppertunity to get a slot at nationals was well worth $50. I don't even know if similar systems exist for running, but even if they did they obiously don't include all runners.

A reduced first-year one-day fee is all good, but rolling new members in with a cheap first-year membership ($20/$25) would also mitigate the $15/race hump.

Could it be just perception? What if the cost was embedded into the race fee and then USAT members get a discount? That way, instead of an add-on fee, it's a discount, a benefit of membership. It looks more attractive that way. Every race I do outside of triathlon (running road races, trail races, big bike rides (Solvang Century, etc.) (but Masters swim meets & OW swimming being the exceptions - USMS required) has no add-on fees other than Active, should they use Active. I think because of that, most events that I enter have moved away from Active. So, all I see is the one fee I pay and I'm in. I'm doing less and less triathlons, frankly because they are so expensive.

---

Proud member of FISHTWITCH: doing a bit more than fish exercise now.

Maybe its better to hide it in the cost... give discount to annual members

---

___________________________________________
http://en.wikipedia.org/...eoesophageal_fistula
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cerebral_palsy
2020 National Masters Champion - M40-44 - 400m IM
Canadian Record Holder 35-39M & 40-44M - 200 m Butterfly (LCM)

Tim is a good friend of mine and even though it is a long drive for me, if I am healthy, I might go race it to support him. Would be great if you and Mark could come.

So you are another older person with a run problem? :) Sorry to hear but the statics do not lie.

---

Dave Campbell | Facebook | @DaveECampbell | h2ofun@h2ofun.net

Boom Nutrition code 19F4Y3 $5 off 24 pack box | Bionic Runner | PowerCranks | Velotron | Spruzzamist

Lions don't lose sleep worrying about the sheep

yeah, i don't really know him, but he stepped out big when he left kirkwood to buy and run china peak. at the beginning of the biggest drought in recorded california history. so, yeah, i'd love to see if we can help bring him some summer business and, really, that place ought to be an endurance sport disneyland in the summer.

---

Dan Empfield
aka Slowman

You could look at it that way. Or you could look at it as giving a curious newcomer a cheaper alternative than requiring a full year membership.

I'm also a member of the Sports Car Club of America. Annual dues are +/- $90, depending on your region and level of membership. Membership is required to compete in a sanctioned event like an autocross or rallycross. For non-member newbies just wanting to try an event, " 'Weekend' Memberships" (actually 5 days) are available for, you guessed it, $15. You can apply up to two Weekend Memberships towards a Annual Membership upgrade, as long as they were purchased within the last 60 days.

---

"They're made of latex, not nitroglycerin"

Chris M
You can thank Annika, as she was the person who advised me....
Pete

---

2017 Cervelo P2
2017 Cervelo S2
itraininla.com
#itraininla

i would be happy looking at it that way if we had something other than fewer people participating than last year. and last year was below the year before. and so on for the last 4 years.

i'm not saying that 1-day fees are the reason. but i have been complaining about this for about the last 5 years, predicting this. our service fees are too high. people vote with their feet. they're voting. against us. so, we can tell them what a great deal they're getting. or we could take the approach that it's our behavior, not theirs, that needs to be reconsidered.

---

Dan Empfield
aka Slowman

So what would you discount it to specifically for the events you are talking about.

If your suggesting like $5-$8 for a 1 day license to do a $50 pool sprint, ok cool. But I also think you would have to acknowledge you likely lose that person to doing annual fee if "cost" is really this big of a deal. Because $8 for beginners would likely view it as "wow so I can do 6 races before I need to be a member financially".

So I get what your saying and agree with what your saying. But at the same time at some point there has to be line in sand so that it doesn't devalue the actual membership.

So again are we down to $3-7 difference as the breaking point of whether people would do it or not. $10 if you think pool sprint should be $5 license fee.

---

Brooks Doughtie, M.S.
Exercise Physiology
-USAT Level II

I'll tell you one thing you get that I did not see mentioned here, you push the profit margin for the RD. This has been the dirty little secret(at least was) that if you sign up for a race, pay the one day fee and then don't show up, the RD keeps that money. In some races that is $1000's of dollars. After the race is over the RD goes through and pulls out all the no shows(maybe even DNF's) and then pays the one day fees to USAT. Unless the system has changed, that is what I remember used to happen.

And it makes sense in that the athlete did not take advantage of the USAT insurance by not showing up, but shouldn't said athlete get that money back? Just saying....

I cringe when I see confusion on race morning or packet pickup for first timers on the fees. It seems like it could be a very simple math formula to bake these fees into races in terms of how many people are typically members of USAT and how many one-day licenses you spend. Average it out, bake it into the race fees ... the RD pays USAT a certain amount and we're done.

The downside, of course, is you've deincentivized people from buying the yearly membership to avoid paying the race-by-race fees. But again, I think math ultimately solves this problem.

Hidden or add-on fees suck. I don't think people say "screw this sport" because of them, but they're annoying and don't make for a great first impression from people who are already likely nervous and intimidated walking into their first race.

Whenever the USAT fees pop up in conversation, I always compare it to other "Olympic" sports in which I've competed. There is a broad range of fee structures, but most only require you to pay some form of membership in order to be included in the national or international pool of athletes; kind of the entry into an being (or attempting to be) an elite (at least in your age group). Not sure how swimming jibes, but it seems to me that USAT took its cues from USAC: if you want to race at all, you must be targeting that top 1%, therefore must be a member of some stripe. USAT calls being included in the rankings a feature, but, realistically, that just isn't the case. The problem is that the vast majority of people taking part in triathlon view it more as pursuit of a healthy lifestyle, rather than trying to make it to the Olympics or (de facto) Kona. You can run a 5k, 10k, or marathon every weekend of the year and never (directly) pay USATF, even if the course is certified. Not typically the case with triathlon.

I can absolutely see the case for USAT certification from the RD perspective. Much less so from the "casual competitor" perspective.

Other than running, my primary lens for this is versus wrestling in which (until you hit the senior/Olympic/masters age) you can compete in folkstyle meets without paying any USAW dues, but you need to be a member to compete events that channel/funnel you to being a part of team USA. At the senior/Olympic age, there are basically no "weekend warrior" events and scant few at the masters level. But that is due to the nature of the sport and general public perception. It just never had its version of Jim Fixx.

to me, it's not the money. it truly is "the thought that counts." we have migrated from a sport that used to welcome beginners and first timers toward competitive bike racing:

- we read 1st person accounts of how a black person does a triathlon and feels isolated and borderline unwelcome. what that black person doesn't know is that almost everybody feels that way now in his or her first race unless brought by friends. too many of us hang out with our clubs under our custom printed pop up tents. very few of us walk up to people who look like they might be first timers or, at least, at the race alone, with an outstretched hand: "hi, my name is dan. how was your race today?"

- we do a poor job of explaining the simplest of the rules so, predictably, we have a lot of people who pass on the right, ride on the left, don't understand the draft zone and so forth. so we yell at them, of course, for what they did, rather than educate them on what we take for granted but they don't know.

- likewise doping. waaaay too many people still think if a doctor prescribes it it's legal for competition, because USAT completely washes its hands of anti-doping education and newcomers don't even know what USADA is.

in short, we are no longer a welcoming sport. if we explained that we have a newcomers program that includes discounts, and information, and community building, and instruction, and smiles, and answers, that would solve it. we explain that for your first race you get *this* and this includes a discount on your one-day fee. i don't care if the discount is $5. it at least is a recognition that the costs add up and we're cognizant of that.

---

Dan Empfield
aka Slowman

I always compare it to other "Olympic" sports in which I've competed. There is a broad range of fee structures, but most only require you to pay some form of membership in order to be included in the national or international pool of athletes
---

Most triathletes have had experience with running events through USATF. Entry fees are rather cheap. The required paperwork before the race is minimal. The entry fee posted is exactly what you pay (unless you're using one of those online registration companies that charge a ridiculous amount for 'processing'- but that's a different thread). The RD pays USATF for the insurance and the courses are certified by an official that comes out and measures the course.

Triathlon's additional fees do not guarantee that the course was accurate or even measured. Most will not see any actual benefit from the membership fee. The fees typically go towards people that do very little to grow the amateur side of the sport.

---

---

---

Take a short break from ST and read my blog:
http://tri-banter.blogspot.com/

The whining post that will never die...
It could be worse. It could be mandatory membership if you wanted to compete. Just about every single NGB has some sort of "one day fee" if one does not buy an annual membership. No one forces you to do USAT sanctioned events. That's what makes this system work OK. If you want to race a USAT sanctioned race you can. If you don't you can. Try cycling races that are not USAC.

I choose to support "my" NGBs (USAT, USAC, USA Swimming, USMS). I buy an annual membership, get a magazine, accident insurance, voting rights & some warm fuzzies knowing I'm supporting Olympic athletes.

---

#swimmingmatters
Laugh hard. Run fast. Be kind.
The Doctor (#12)

Na, that's not true.

(Edit) although I agree with all your other points, just not the summation tagline (/edit)

Whenever you enter any new group/sport/tribe/whatever you've gotta spend some time understanding thier ways/rules/etiquette.

Tri's got some tent-clique stuff, but that's negilgable, overall its really welcoming.

yep

---

Dave Campbell | Facebook | @DaveECampbell | h2ofun@h2ofun.net

Boom Nutrition code 19F4Y3 $5 off 24 pack box | Bionic Runner | PowerCranks | Velotron | Spruzzamist

Lions don't lose sleep worrying about the sheep

Most will not see any actual benefit from the membership fee. The fees typically go towards people that do very little to grow the amateur side of the sport.

-----

No actually most are too lazy to use the benefits that are attached with the membership.

ETA: If you travel and stay in a hotel or flight once a year, your discount that can gain from it likely covers half your fee on one tri trip. So this whole narrative that members receive no benefits or your paying all these elites and staff members is mostly bullshit. Just because you don't think the value is there doesn't give you the right to make up information.

ETA # 2- here is what USAT publishes as money spent (on the dollar).

$1 total:
.02- volunteer support
.04- IT
.04- Region support
.04- Grassroots
.05- Para triathlon
.06- Marketing/communications
.09- RD, officials, coaching education
.10- National Team Programs
.15- National office operations
.16- services to local sanctioned vents
.24- membership services/benefits


So like I said that's what they are putting out there. Want to call their bluff, I'm all for it, show us where/how; not just ST members talking. Show where the amateurs are getting screwed.

---

Brooks Doughtie, M.S.
Exercise Physiology
-USAT Level II

pretty harsh words for your fellows! can you show me where on USAT's website i can access this benefit? i see the page with the list of benefits. i see the travel discounts. i'm not seeing it as clearly as you're explaining it. a little help?

---

Dan Empfield
aka Slowman

Not harsh words, jusy tired of people talking as if it's gospel. If USAT is screwing amateurs just show us how/where?

Here is usat's funding per dollar. So I'm showing you what your money goes toward. Want to come up with a different narrative, great...just show us where the screw job is happening at.

https://www.teamusa.org/...ECFBC11CF369D4919A1A


ETA: Here is the breakdown if you dont click the link. It's per 1 dollar. All I can tell you is this is what they tell us. If you want to say they are full of shit, ok fine. Just show me where it's happening at. That's my whole point. Everyone talks about members not having much benefits or amateurs are screwed over. How?

$1 total:
.02- volunteer support
.04- IT
.04- Region support
.04- Grassroots
.05- Para triathlon
.06- Marketing/communications
.09- RD, officials, coaching education
.10- National Team Programs
.15- National office operations
.16- services to local sanctioned vents
.24- membership services/benefits

---

Brooks Doughtie, M.S.
Exercise Physiology
-USAT Level II

Be careful, if you provide facts, how will these folks continue to bitch? Right, they never listen to facts. :)

---

Dave Campbell | Facebook | @DaveECampbell | h2ofun@h2ofun.net

Boom Nutrition code 19F4Y3 $5 off 24 pack box | Bionic Runner | PowerCranks | Velotron | Spruzzamist

Lions don't lose sleep worrying about the sheep

you said the very people who YOU depend on to pay membership fees are liars (they make up information), they're lazy, and what they're saying is "bullshit." i consider those harsh words when spoken to the very people you need to pay up so that you can enjoy the benefits that USAT provides. me, i would speak to them in a different tone. but that's up to you.

and that goes for you, too, dave. and i say this as someone who does believe in the value of the annual membership, and i've had an annual membership off and on for many years, even in years i don't race. i don't dispute the value of the membership. i just don't see the reason to castigate those who are questioning the value.

now, to the question i asked. where is it that this travel benefit is described? "If you travel and stay in a hotel or flight once a year, your discount that can gain from it likely covers half your fee on one tri trip." can you show me how to access this? because i'm not seeing it.

---

Dan Empfield
aka Slowman

Nice breakdown, but where is the money that goes to pad the bank account? Last I saw they had 10's of millions in savings, how could that be if each and every dollar is spent and accounted for?

Dan there is no way that I am going to sit back and let a small group of snowflake bullies continue to attack USAT without pushing back. Why should they get an open platform to just foam at the mouth about USAT? We do not need these kind of folks in our sport. The only place I see this is on ST. I do not hear these negative folks at races. So if you think that challenging these folks is castigation, well, I guess we can agree to disagree.

No group or person is perfect. But, I would rather try to work with things than always be attacking. Nothing wrong with tough questions, which I love to ask. But if the intent is just to be negative,.. And what do these few do to help our sport? Do they help at races? Do they engage with USAT with ideas for improvement?
I have been around ST long enough to know these are the same folks who just always see life half empty, and many can just hide behind their keyboards since you do not force folks to use real names.

---

Dave Campbell | Facebook | @DaveECampbell | h2ofun@h2ofun.net

Boom Nutrition code 19F4Y3 $5 off 24 pack box | Bionic Runner | PowerCranks | Velotron | Spruzzamist

Lions don't lose sleep worrying about the sheep

Good question, as I said, I can only show you what they provide. If you have the info to show then show it. That's my whole point. If the screw is on, just show where it's happening at.

---

Brooks Doughtie, M.S.
Exercise Physiology
-USAT Level II

So, let me see if I understand this correctly: As an amateur triathlete, more money goes towards National Team stuff than towards actual membership services and you want me to be happy with a potential hotel/ flight discount, even though I don't fly or stay in hotels?

I think you're falling into the same rut as USAT. The clients aren't happy and expressing why. Then, you guys are telling us why we're wrong. None of the benefits offered by USAT appeal to me as an athlete (I suppose that means I'm too lazy to use them). The benefits don't even apply to athletes purchasing a 1-day membership fee, which makes you wonder what the 1-day'ers get for their money (since it's not really covered in your expense report). The stuff I want from USAT (certified courses, more efficient officiating) aren't happening.

---

---

---

Take a short break from ST and read my blog:
http://tri-banter.blogspot.com/

Are those numbers audited? Do they even have audited financial statements?

If not, they are not worth the PDF they were created in.

Nope, I do not believe the majority of clients are unhappy. There are always a few that no matter what, will bitch, always.

So, if you have some facts that show the majority of "clients" are unhappy, please post some data. And a reduction in USAT memberships does not show anything in specific other than all sports grow and contract over time.

---

Dave Campbell | Facebook | @DaveECampbell | h2ofun@h2ofun.net

Boom Nutrition code 19F4Y3 $5 off 24 pack box | Bionic Runner | PowerCranks | Velotron | Spruzzamist

Lions don't lose sleep worrying about the sheep

Why not pay for an annual license?

---

no sponsors | no races | nothing to see here

dave, please, take the snowflake verbiage to the lavender room. these aren't bullies. they're questioners. based on USAT's own math that brooks quoted ($.24 toward member benefits) as well as i can tell USAT is spending about $4 million a year for these benefits and that's not including salaries (because USAT appears to place this in a different cost bucket).

we need all kinds of folks in our sport.

good idea, dave. i agree with you.

---

Dan Empfield
aka Slowman

Dan,

I spoke in a different tone at the beginning of this entire thread. Someone asked what $15 membership got them. I said exactly what they wanted- access to a membership race + insurance from said race that they weren't a member of. In the same light, if you go to Lifetime fitness, you have to pay a guest fee to enter. People then said even after that very statement of fact, that they dont see any benefit from the $15 membership fee. The benefit is simply being able to race a race for which you aren't a member of. I'm not sure where the discount is?

Dan are you asking where you access the membership benefits? That will be when you login to your account. Then click on "my account"....Next page look on the right under "exclusive sponsor discounts". That will bring up the sponsor page.

Partner Discounts- 13 company discounts for training (trainingpeaks, QR, 2xu, etc)

Travel Discounts- 4 company discounts for flights, and rental cars (apparently i mis-spoke no longer are hotels on there)

Supplier Discounts- 3 different companies under this part (not sure of what they provide or used any of them).

https://www.teamusa.org/USA-Triathlon/Membership-Services/Benefits/Discounts/Member-Discounts

---

Brooks Doughtie, M.S.
Exercise Physiology
-USAT Level II

i know where the member benefits page sits. i just linked to it. it's just that my ears perked up when you said if i travel and stay in a hotel that i get half my annual membership money back. i just don't see that.

so, i just don't think calling me (or anyone) lazy and a bullshitter and a liar because we don't recognize that these values is helpful, because i really don't think there is a travel value that i can access. there are far easier ways to achieve value for hotel rooms, rental cars, and airlines.

were i running USAT i would stop all that running around looking for phantom discounts and instead focus ALL my attention on getting bikes to races cheap.

i've just been elected the president of our industry association, and i'm taking a different tack. rather than telling folks they should be TBI members because of patriotism or some such thinking, i'm going to try to generate real value that attaches to membership. the only reason people are annual members of USAT is because they need annual membership to attend a particular race, or because it's cheaper than several 1-days. the last time i polled, 5 percent of slowtwitchers said they'd be annual USAT members if such membership sat above and beyond a fee for race insurance. in other words, there is virtually no recognition of a member benefit.

therefore, there either needs to be a member benefit, or if there is then USAT ought to to a better job of explaining it.

---

Dan Empfield
aka Slowman

I guess we again can agree to disagree. I know what these folks are, and I use the correct words to identify them. These folks never use facts, just attack.
So if you can show me any of them that use facts, not fake news, but real facts we can all cross check, then great, they would just be questions.
But they are making accusations, assumptions, etc without any facts that can be cross checked to back them up. Just like I see all the time in the media now which is basically nothing more than fake news. Sure would hate to see ST be nothing more than that also.

So, as is being asked, can you or anyone else provide facts that can be crossed checked for these negative comments being made about USAT? I am all ears.
Are they perfect? Nope. Could anyone that is complaining do a better job? Probably not.

Let's take the example that was posted recently about USAT rankings and how they are not done either in a timely manner or at all. Folks, as usual, starting posting and attacking USAT for this. Well, I even had a person who had been posting the negative stuff on ST PM with the issues, his facts, about why USAT was 100% at fault.
I took the initiative to write the USAT ranking group with this persons concerns on races and asked for status. They got back to me twice in the same day and guess what, one of the results have never been sent and received even though this guy said the RD had sent weeks ago. On the second race,USAT had found differences between what was sent to them and what the RD had posted on their website for results and had asked the RD for clarification . I thought this was a great going beyond by the USAT ranking group. I sent this info back to the person who did not say much back to me. I said I thought he should go back on ST and apologize since he had made accusations about the USAT ranking group on ST that were totally false. Nothing happened so I then posted what USAT sent me back. Did anyone respond that wow, that was great that USAT was doing a great job trying to make sure things were correct before posting rankings? Nope. Why not????????

---

Dave Campbell | Facebook | @DaveECampbell | h2ofun@h2ofun.net

Boom Nutrition code 19F4Y3 $5 off 24 pack box | Bionic Runner | PowerCranks | Velotron | Spruzzamist

Lions don't lose sleep worrying about the sheep

: As an amateur triathlete, more money goes towards National Team stuff than towards actual membership services and you want me to be happy with a potential hotel/ flight discount, even though I don't fly or stay in hotels?


Can you explain that to me. 10 % goes toward national team (which is the elites); 24% goes towards member services, or am i reading my own chart wrong? US National Team Programs and National Office Operations aren't the same. Many of the people that you email when you have an issue are part of the national office operations and do nothing with "elites". Could you claify?



---------------------------------------
The clients aren't happy and expressing why. Then, you guys are telling us why we're wrong. None of the benefits offered by USAT appeal to me as an athlete (I suppose that means I'm too lazy to use them).


What helmet do you wear? Do you use body glide? Do you use online training? What tri suit do you wear? Use tape for recovery? There are 13 different discounts that are specific to help athletes, if you can't find 1 of them to use, fair enough.



The benefits don't even apply to athletes purchasing a 1-day membership fee, which makes you wonder what the 1-day'ers get for their money (since it's not really covered in your expense report).

I already showed you what you got for the 1 day fee. Access to a member service that you arent a current member for. That's it. Doesn't need to be more, doesnt need to be less. You are an athlete wanting to do a race that you aren't a member for. You are going to have to pay for that opportunity. That's fair right? Now you may want it for less and great, I understand that.




The stuff I want from USAT (certified courses, more efficient officiating) aren't happening.


Great things to want, and course certs are one I read about a lot on here. Officiating I think is always going to be an issue because it's volunteer based. That's likely one of the last things they'll ever be able to fix.

---

Brooks Doughtie, M.S.
Exercise Physiology
-USAT Level II

I guess I continue to be in the minority in your opinion. With my membership I Get the USAT magazine, which I love to read, and think it is the best about our sport.
I have yet to use any of the discount USAT has, but I might in the future. I love the USAT ranking process that allows me to compare myself to others across the country for fun. I love that I am not forced to go to Nationals to try and get a TeamUSA spot but can try and work my butt off and get a decent ranking position to get a TeamUSA spot with a roll down, which I have had happen many times. I love that USAT can provide officials for races to try and make them as fair and safe as possible. I love that USAT is able to put on National events which for folks who have never been to one, they have no idea what they are missing. I love to watch a few of our best athletes compete in our sport in the Olympics. So these are just a few things off the top of my head that happen because I elect to pay for USAT dues to support the above. Now, you or others may think these are BS, but, some of us think they are not. And this gets to my comment about snowflakes and bullies. These folks can never accept that we all have different opinions and we should not be attacked for having them.

---

Dave Campbell | Facebook | @DaveECampbell | h2ofun@h2ofun.net

Boom Nutrition code 19F4Y3 $5 off 24 pack box | Bionic Runner | PowerCranks | Velotron | Spruzzamist

Lions don't lose sleep worrying about the sheep

i know where the member benefits page sits. i just linked to it. it's just that my ears perked up when you said if i travel and stay in a hotel that i get half my annual membership money back. i just don't see that.

----------

I errored by including hotel. But didn't error on the flight info, as united flight you get 2-10% discount. So if you fly 1 time a year on $500 flight, you get $10 back (20% of your discount). If you get 10% back on that $500 flight, you just gained back $50. So again, I errored by including hotels, at some point I know hotels were on there or I may have that mixed up. Flights + rental car have been a discount service pretty much the whole time.

So if you don't fly or rent a car, then yes you wont get any of the "travel" perks that I said were worth likely half your membership there. So that was my error for including hotel, but it is also a big incentive not to have because that likely would be used 10x more than flight/rental car.

---

Brooks Doughtie, M.S.
Exercise Physiology
-USAT Level II

Why do we need certified courses? I sure do not care. Just as long as we all race on the same course, why does it matter if it is off a few inches? And it is basically impossible to certify a swim course.

More efficient officiating? What the heck does that mean? Since most never ever step up to the plate and get certified to be an official at a race, again it is always someone else that is causing the issue, but they never jump in and try to help improve things.

---

Dave Campbell | Facebook | @DaveECampbell | h2ofun@h2ofun.net

Boom Nutrition code 19F4Y3 $5 off 24 pack box | Bionic Runner | PowerCranks | Velotron | Spruzzamist

Lions don't lose sleep worrying about the sheep

Dave, that was a conversation I was having with previous poster. His comments are in regular font, my replies were in italic. I have no clue how to post each part of a post, when I wanted to talk about each segment.

But to answer your question, I think course certs are useful and not so useful. Like I've seen people have a big deal when they see an olympic with 22 mile bike instead of 40k. That I'm not so worried over. The most likely case for these races to have that odd distance is likely ease. IE, instead of having U-Turn in middle of a road where it's exactly that distance, they have it at a more safer place. Or they have an 22 mile loop instead of 24, etc.

Officiating is something that I just dont think ever really gets better. Too few officials out there, no real incentive to do it (IE it's volunteer based), and it's kinda hard. Like it's hard to do and then you have to deal with the consequences of the guy knowing he didnt draft, when you thought he did. Now I also think it's much different for your local run of the mill sprint vs IM type of event but I get that WTC is also still dependent on volunteers to do it (drivers + officials).

---

Brooks Doughtie, M.S.
Exercise Physiology
-USAT Level II

I agree.

Since I took the RD cert class, and USAT official cert class, etc., I feel I know a few things about this sport. I also have been an RD for a race where I live so I know first hand the BS an RD has to deal with from Type A athletes who think they are entitled. But they will never change, but I will also never change that I will not sit back and let the bullies win by not being challenged. If this makes me a bad person, so be it. I always stick up for the person, group, etc generally that are being attacked without facts.

I have never seen anything that says our courses have to be certified to a distance. In running that can be critical, like you cannot get into Boston without running a certified marathon course, but in Triathlon, totally different. Swim will always be different, even if you have anchors on the bottom since wind or current can still move them around. A bike turn around as to be, as you stated, put in a safe place, not just at a distance. Same happens for runs. So again, where is the issue? I see no rule that stated a race has to be specific certified distances, even though some like to complain. And it is always funny that they try to use a GPS unit for their justification. They are just not that accurate. I believe for run courses to be certified, they have to use the old wheel method?

---

Dave Campbell | Facebook | @DaveECampbell | h2ofun@h2ofun.net

Boom Nutrition code 19F4Y3 $5 off 24 pack box | Bionic Runner | PowerCranks | Velotron | Spruzzamist

Lions don't lose sleep worrying about the sheep

the only reason people are annual members of USAT is because they need annual membership to attend a particular race, or because it's cheaper than several 1-days. the last time i polled, 5 percent of slowtwitchers said they'd be annual USAT members if such membership sat above and beyond a fee for race insurance. in other words, there is virtually no recognition of a member benefit.

---------

Here's my question. Is being able to race "membership" races in and of itself a value that no one seems to see? Or is that not part of it, because that seems to be one part that is missing. It was missing from exactly what I said the 1 day license is for...... You get to race an USAT race, nothing more, nothing less.

Or are people saying there shouldnt be a organization that oversees the sport, and forces you to be a member of? Turn it into run races, where you dont need to be a member of to run in your local 5k?

---

Brooks Doughtie, M.S.
Exercise Physiology
-USAT Level II

OK Dave -

I sent them a message asking about when duathlon nationals will be next year. Did not receive a response.

Perhaps since you like them and they like you, you could get an answer for us?

1/2 way through 2017 they should have 2018 scheduled....

Your analogy with United is incredibly flawed. First, the discount savings don't mean anything if the flight cost is far greater than you can find from a competitor. Second, United is one of the worst gougers on bike bag fees, so the $50 you claimed to have saved was just eaten up @ $200 each way for the bike bag. You need to look at a lot of factors when determining the lowest cost travel option from pt A to pt B.

Which race? LC or standard? Standard likely will be back in Bend in mid June based on 2 year cycles minimum (usually how it's setup). LC I have heard is going to be moved from May to later in year according to one of the threads on here. Couldn't remember where they said it was going.

---

Brooks Doughtie, M.S.
Exercise Physiology
-USAT Level II

This is easy to answer, and I heard it directly out of Tim Yount's mouth at the Du townhall meeting in Bend Nationals. They do not know yet. Pretty simple. It could be early, like I have now see in the TEamUSA FB group posted they think it is April, https://www.facebook.com/groups/781961558480877/ or Tim said could be in October. So, until a contract is signed not possible to get a response. These type of questions get asked and answered from folks on the TeamUSA FB group. Tim will post answers to questions at times.

copied this as part of the discussion about your question from the FB group;.

I just called Greenville SC and they told me it's sometime in April 2018. They also told me that USAT will post all the information in July! April is a good time!
http://www.visitgreenvillesc.com/events/sports/

---

Dave Campbell | Facebook | @DaveECampbell | h2ofun@h2ofun.net

Boom Nutrition code 19F4Y3 $5 off 24 pack box | Bionic Runner | PowerCranks | Velotron | Spruzzamist

Lions don't lose sleep worrying about the sheep

Bend has had std already for 2 years and is done. I have a post on the TEamUSA FB page where I put all the USAT races, nationals and worlds that are known for the next many years at the top. Take a look, the known info is there and posted.

---

Dave Campbell | Facebook | @DaveECampbell | h2ofun@h2ofun.net

Boom Nutrition code 19F4Y3 $5 off 24 pack box | Bionic Runner | PowerCranks | Velotron | Spruzzamist

Lions don't lose sleep worrying about the sheep

I see no rule that stated a race has to be specific certified distances, even though some like to complain. //

No Dave that is not the problem. I don't believe anyone here cares that much what the distance is given it is as close as possible to the genre of the race. What "WE" all care about is what is the actual distance. Like you said, don't care if it is exactly 1.5/40k/10k, just tell me what the actual race distances are. Don't be that RD that quietly shortens their course and don't tell anyone so that everyone goes home with a new PR and can now brag to their friends how fast there went. And of course it is a huge incentive to go back the next year too, fast courses(or short ones) always garner huge fields. With all the technology now that just doesn't fly anymore, so just tell us what it is. Is that too difficult a thing to ask? Is that being a snowflake? Is wanting to know what distance you raced make you a complainer, or USAT basher?


And if you still don't care about this, just ignore my post and move on.

How is this a USAT issue? Seems like you have an RD issue. If they do not provide accurate stuff, why do you do the race?

I had this battle with my co RD at the race at my lake. What he measured was not accurate. When I pushed him that we needed to tell athletes what it really was,
it got all upset and told me no one cares and has car distance was perfect.

I have seen RD's lie about water temps. I measured over 82 with my USAT approved tester, and the RD said it was under 78. When I confronted him that he had to follow the USAT rule for his sanctioned race, he told me to my face his races will NEVER be over 78.

So I 100% agree the RD should tell us the accurate distances. But this is not a USAT issue!!!!!!

---

Dave Campbell | Facebook | @DaveECampbell | h2ofun@h2ofun.net

Boom Nutrition code 19F4Y3 $5 off 24 pack box | Bionic Runner | PowerCranks | Velotron | Spruzzamist

Lions don't lose sleep worrying about the sheep

this is why i was hoping you would run for USAT board. your scaling the one day fee to race distance is brilliant. it is a punishment to a newbie coming to sprint race paying $15 when their walmart bike is 1/4th that price already...., while to a 70.3 participant $15 is just a small percentage. As for perks of discounts, i love how you mention phanton. the hotel/car rental price just artifically raises the price, to account for the percentage discount USAT offers, yet you use many online booking sites you get that discount anyways. In addition with things like AirBnB, who the hell books hotels anymore?


most amatures will have one strong leg in tri, not all three. swim course is difficult to do yes... BUT 2/3s of tri participants are bike or run strong, which are courses easy to certify with a wheel. it gives them something to look forward to. for instance the bike strong user may want to compare their 20k tri bike leg to a 20km tt time. or runner, comparing their 10k tri run to and open 10k. course certification is useful also, as some may try to BQ in iron distance tri.

Unless the bike or run is 100% the same, like flat, no curves or turns, no wind, no humidity, no heat, you are never going to be able to compare.

---

Dave Campbell | Facebook | @DaveECampbell | h2ofun@h2ofun.net

Boom Nutrition code 19F4Y3 $5 off 24 pack box | Bionic Runner | PowerCranks | Velotron | Spruzzamist

Lions don't lose sleep worrying about the sheep

I remember when the run boom took off, in the latter 70s. I was already a runner. It was a revelation to me when anyone could enter a footrace, rather than previously, when we all had to have AAU cards. There's a lesson in there somewhere.

---

Dan Empfield
aka Slowman

ETA # 2- here is what USAT publishes as money spent (on the dollar).

$1 total:
.02- volunteer support
.04- IT
.04- Region support
.04- Grassroots
.05- Para triathlon
.06- Marketing/communications
.09- RD, officials, coaching education
.10- National Team Programs
.15- National office operations
.16- services to local sanctioned vents
.24- membership services/benefits

Those are all very vague. Are there details published?

no, you will be able to compare. you will know if a race is difficult compared to others, to know if you gave it your all. how the hell can i compared a sprint 400m swim / 20k bike / 6k run to a race with 750m s / 18k bike / 5k run

Not that I know but I do know they post annual reports (where they would be exactly Idk).

---

Brooks Doughtie, M.S.
Exercise Physiology
-USAT Level II

I really could care less. I have raced around 200 tri's, and I play with the results, but never get too excited. I have done many with short or long portions of each leg. Do I care? Nope. All that matters is the finish time compared to others. I understand for some, this is an OCD issue, but it will never happen our sport, and has nothing to do with USAT.

---

Dave Campbell | Facebook | @DaveECampbell | h2ofun@h2ofun.net

Boom Nutrition code 19F4Y3 $5 off 24 pack box | Bionic Runner | PowerCranks | Velotron | Spruzzamist

Lions don't lose sleep worrying about the sheep

the same way you compare a hilly run versus a flat run etc. Athletes know what they did. And almost all athletes get splits so there is that way.

Also if I know 2 sprints are "different" I'm not going to go split by split in the same way if I do a easy 5k versus a hilly 5k. I'm not going to be able to straight up compare the 2.

Give me a course that you measure and give me that as your announced course and that's about as good as it gets. Having 3 different courses is going to always create harder demands on RD. So give me accurate measured courses over a set specific race demand sprint course of 750/20k/5k (that in reality was 2.9 miles not 5k, etc).

---

Brooks Doughtie, M.S.
Exercise Physiology
-USAT Level II

I like USAT. I know many small tri's can't find insurance and they go to usat it's just a very simple way to organize things. I like USAT All American rankings and i like that some of my money goes to help pro's. Triathlon has been good to me and for me . No matter the price i pay i will never be able to pay back for the fun, thrills, enjoyment and excitement . It has changed my life and the life of my children and grandchildren. I have met many great people at races and have many great memories. I find triathletes to be fun, kind and good people. I think the people at USAT are the same.

Pretty much anything I can think of that adds value to a race is due to the RD, staff, volunteers, and sponsors. Some of the absolute worst races I've done have been USAT sanctioned, and some of the best were not.

---

"I'm thinking of a number between 1 and 10, and I don't know why!"

I think the USATF comparison is somewhat enlightening; as a member of both USAT and USATF, I often find myself shaking my head at USATF (which my teammates and I often call USAWTF) and wondering why they can't be as competent as USAT.

What USATF does better than USAT: provide team-based competition. As synthetic wrote, you only have to be a USATF member if you want to score in certain races, but in my region (USATF New England) there are several series (road, mountain, XC) that have team competition. There are separate divisions by 10-yr age group in the team competition, so it really is competitive (especially in road racing). My experiences with regional USAT team (club) competition have been utterly disappointing--you have to dig to figure out which race is the club championship, and the scoring is not that well thought out to help smaller clubs be competitive. Very few clubs even seem to try--my club "won" the regional championship one year with only 2 other teams even showing up.

What USAT does better than USATF: most everything else, as far as I can see--and to be clear, the team based stuff I've referred to above is from the regional, not the national, organization. The national championships from USAT (I've only ever done the Olympic AG) are orders of magnitude better than the national championships USATF puts on for amateurs. You can't even tell you're at a championship road race, except that one or two clubs show up from out of town. The ranking system, while surely not perfect, is pretty fun. The website sometimes has interesting stuff on it. Is all this stuff (plus the other benefits) worth my membership fee? That's kind of a personal choice. But I do agree that the one-day membership thing is kind of ridiculous--USATF does nothing like that.

I wrote a question to the USAT ranking team about an hour ago on a Sunday. Was hoping to hear back tomorrow on Monday.
Well, I just got an answer back from USAT a few minutes ago on a Sunday. So sorry, I continue to be impressed with the responses
that USAT provides and tries to support their members.

---

Dave Campbell | Facebook | @DaveECampbell | h2ofun@h2ofun.net

Boom Nutrition code 19F4Y3 $5 off 24 pack box | Bionic Runner | PowerCranks | Velotron | Spruzzamist

Lions don't lose sleep worrying about the sheep

You can now just do Lifetime Tri and avoid the $15 altogether! It's only 400-something for the rest!

http://www.triathlete.com/2017/07/news/life-time-tri-plans-make-short-course-triathlon-great_303437

---

808 > NYC > PDX > YVR
2024 Races: Taupo

OP here....

Oh wait! I just got an email indicating that I qualified for USA Triathlon National Championship based on the result of my race! I *did* have a pretty good race, but I'd hardly call it "national class". Since I have never qualified for anything before, I question the legitimacy.

I still don't know what to think. I acknowledge that the USAT offers value. But for $15/race - I feel like the value ought to be manifestly evident on race day.

I would say not legitimate based on the fact that I also 'qualified' and I am a solid MOP at best... sorry

---

808 > NYC > PDX > YVR
2024 Races: Taupo

And with such insightful posts like that, sometimes I think it would be good for ST'rs to have to follow the type of guidelines used over in the 'change my mind' Reddit group: https://www.reddit.com/...ngemyview/wiki/rules, but especially so when I see your posts... like that classic crank length thread you participated in.

---

wovebike.com | Wove on instagram

Rule used to be you need to qualify in Olympic dist races to get to Nats, now any bozo at sprint on hybrid bike can get in... as long as 'race' is usat certified.

Why be so negative? You met the rules of doing a race to get an invite. Yep, I get them all the time. If you want to go and race in the deepest field in the US for an Olympic distance, go test yourself. If not, why knock others that are thrilled?

But line, all sports, etc are a business. If they do not make money, they do not exist. If the 99% of folks who go to nationals, who are not FOP elites, do not go, there is not race for anyone. Is this what you are saying you would want.

Man, do you buy starbucks? I bet I can find things anyone does that I would say is a waste of money. But this 15 bucks stuff is just amazing what some will get all worked up about. I just lost 500 bucks on my airline ticket changes for Penticton since I screwed it up. I guess I have better start a thread attacking the airline industry for being thieves, and just forget I am the one who did not read the details correctly.

---

Dave Campbell | Facebook | @DaveECampbell | h2ofun@h2ofun.net

Boom Nutrition code 19F4Y3 $5 off 24 pack box | Bionic Runner | PowerCranks | Velotron | Spruzzamist

Lions don't lose sleep worrying about the sheep

I don't recall what my personal insurance paid and my copay, but I do recall getting a check from USAT for several hundred dollars after breaking my collar bone in a race.

Oh come the fuck on. There's more to life than running proficiency. My dad was a cat 1 bike racer for years. Has absolutely no relevancy to his parenting.

And... if you go to Duathlon Nationals or another low attendance "National Championship" race... you can make TeamUSA by showing up and finishing. I get why they make it easier to get to Nats... quite simply its about getting a higher attendance to the these Nationals and to some degree International events.

We're getting off track though, I like having a governing body of safety rules, race insurance, competition rules/officials and think there is some merit to having a reduced or sliding one day license fee.

So, what is the issue, those that show play, those that do not seem to bitch

---

Dave Campbell | Facebook | @DaveECampbell | h2ofun@h2ofun.net

Boom Nutrition code 19F4Y3 $5 off 24 pack box | Bionic Runner | PowerCranks | Velotron | Spruzzamist

Lions don't lose sleep worrying about the sheep

And why is this an issue?

---

Dave Campbell | Facebook | @DaveECampbell | h2ofun@h2ofun.net

Boom Nutrition code 19F4Y3 $5 off 24 pack box | Bionic Runner | PowerCranks | Velotron | Spruzzamist

Lions don't lose sleep worrying about the sheep

Who says anything about running proficiency? Why do they have kids run around a track in PE for school? My point is most parents could not even pass the PE standards, like run just one lap around a track they are in such poor
physical shape. If parents are out of shape, do you think their kids are in shape?

---

Dave Campbell | Facebook | @DaveECampbell | h2ofun@h2ofun.net

Boom Nutrition code 19F4Y3 $5 off 24 pack box | Bionic Runner | PowerCranks | Velotron | Spruzzamist

Lions don't lose sleep worrying about the sheep

the bar has been lowered. maybe difficulty was the original reason for the explosive growth in tri 8 years ago. now that everyone is a winner, what is to strive for?

No issue from me... just a realization for me at least that TeamUSA isn't really something that is hard to attain, outside of paying a registration fee and traveling somewhere. When I got into this sport a mentor of mine was an Elite AG female... I figured going to Nats and qualifying for TeamUSA and competing at ITU Worlds took being a great athlete with focused training... going by her. Now that I've made TeamUSA a few times myself and raced a few Worlds, I see things a little differently after being immersed in it myself. A local acquaintance of mine showed up to a race with a TeamUSA kit... solid MOP'er in small local races, so I'm scratching my head, turns out they qualified at Duathlon Nats. The Sprint and Olympic triathlons can be competitive but even they seem to roll deep.

How many grandparents do you see racing with their grandkids as an example? I do lots of this and basically see none. Most parents I see could not run a mile to save their lives, so how are they role models?

It sounds like you are a great role model for everyone...

My brother (former triathlete/college swimmer) is really out of shape these days. But his son plays soccer, and his daughter is a gymnast...

---

"I'm thinking of a number between 1 and 10, and I don't know why!"

Interesting. I CALLED them on monday with a question about my membership. Still havent heard back.

Maybe they only work on sunday?

They only respond to Dave.
Their SuperFan.

---

float , hammer , and jog

Dave, Are you not sort of contradicting yourself here? The thread is about the value of USAT... Is USAT supposed to be a for-profit business, or a non-profit supporting organization?

If the 99% of folks going to Nationals are, as you suggest, not FOP elites, then... does that not right there illustrate the lack of depth in the field? Some people here have posted that the only way to really fill the field is to ...ahem.... lower the entry standards, as you admit has been done, but then they question the legitimacy of that race as a true Nationals and you call them out for bitching about it. It seems like a legitimate question, don't you think?

As for your Starbucks statement leading into your childish comment about the airline ticket and you running off to start an irrelevant thread.... well.... (that is just childish....and irrelevant).

Have you been to nationals to compete with the big boys? What was your results? What is your USAT rankings?

Yes, I call out folks, most of which are MOP races, who have no results to even talk about. So, why would they even care? Other than to be elitists.

---

Dave Campbell | Facebook | @DaveECampbell | h2ofun@h2ofun.net

Boom Nutrition code 19F4Y3 $5 off 24 pack box | Bionic Runner | PowerCranks | Velotron | Spruzzamist

Lions don't lose sleep worrying about the sheep

I apologize for what seems to be your lack of comprehension - I coherently used YOUR posts to show an apparent contradiction, and to illuminate legitimacy for an often-asked question that you refer to as bitching ...and you respond with a dick-measuring challenge??

I'm out ....
signed .... pee wee :)

Yes I have....podium. TeamUSA is not that hard Dave and I have been fortunate to be top 10 at ITU WC a couple of times. USAT has become completely worthless. As I like Tim so much it pains me to see that, but it seems some people end up going with the flow and not making waves. Their marketing VP is a complete liar and who I called out in very specific detail in e-mails to both him and Tim; he refused to respond further and the swept a very shady deal under the rug.

Looks like we can just agree to disagree

---

Dave Campbell | Facebook | @DaveECampbell | h2ofun@h2ofun.net

Boom Nutrition code 19F4Y3 $5 off 24 pack box | Bionic Runner | PowerCranks | Velotron | Spruzzamist

Lions don't lose sleep worrying about the sheep

Dave, I was as big a fan as you are in past times. Sadly, the power grabs and underhanded ways they do things now, when lying to my face just soured me on them. Their demise is their own doing and it seems to be dramatically accelerating.

And how elitist is it to keep pulling out the "what are your results/rankings" card every time someone disagrees with you?

And funny how its mostly the "MOP racers who have no results to even talk about" who largely subsidize the USAT, and therefore your ability to even have any results/rankings...

---

"I'm thinking of a number between 1 and 10, and I don't know why!"

Yes, I call out folks, most of which are MOP races, who have no results to even talk about. So, why would they even care? Other than to be elitists.

There is an irony in there somewhere, I just can't put my finger on it.

I have seen things i shake my head at also on the past. So if i were in your shoes i might feel the same way. But there are so many in usat who work hard. I try now to stay out of usat politics as much as possible.

---

Dave Campbell | Facebook | @DaveECampbell | h2ofun@h2ofun.net

Boom Nutrition code 19F4Y3 $5 off 24 pack box | Bionic Runner | PowerCranks | Velotron | Spruzzamist

Lions don't lose sleep worrying about the sheep

Yes, especially Tim, who is simply amazing. But sadly, they have let politics consume them. I think you know I was proposing a new uniform supplier as TYR had really dropped the ball. Chuck, the marketing VP completely ignored attempts to give the team an extremely good kit from a supplier who has made a number of Olympic team uniforms including medalists. He then tried a cover up and flat out lied to me. Fortunately I had documentation to contradict his points and once I forwarded such info to both Chuck and Tim, I was given a cold shoulder and no further replies. They wanted a conference call, but I knew that meant that meant there would be nothing on the record. I'm not stupid enough to fall for that. Combine that with the virtual board "take over" and Barry's power play and I have had enough with them. Once a very solid TeamUSA advocate I saw the money grabbing, "screw the athletes" stance and saw through their BS as to what was best for the team. It has purely and simply become a money grab, playing on people's egos so they can say they are on a TEAM USA. To have slots roll down as far as they do is really sad. It's actually quite sad as I had some wonderful times and met some wonderful people who I still consider friends. You have seen the classic clusterfu*k that Roka has done with the uniforms, which is the deal I was referencing before. That was NEVER an open bid, and they elected a vendor who had never made a tri kit before.I'm sure there was some cash under the table but that is hidden better than Russian collision. A long distance suit, probably sourced from a vendor in China (based on the terrible delivery timeline) , with no pad as you know well, a VERY poor cut that will leave the athletes in pain and chafed. How is it that time after time they screw up and still demand loyalty. They sit in the high tower in the Springs and have people that have never competed at a high level or even raced recently dictate things. Instead of asking for opinions, they dictate. It's a dinosaur that will die a very slow lingering death and wonder when and why the sheep left the barn.

You. You are the one judging people's parenting skills based on whether or not they could run a mile.

And it's ridiculous. There is more to life, and certainly more to parenting.

I agree the roka uniforms are a joke as many posts pn the teamusa fb page have shown. I have always bought a new uniform but i sent the roka back. The design cut is terrible.

We have different opinions on teamusa. I believe we should fill the teams starting with the best. Other countries have plenty worse than our weakest. I believe we should roll all the way down in ranking aa's like in the past for teamusa. I believe aa should be 5% not 10 but doesn't hurt anyone at 10

---

Dave Campbell | Facebook | @DaveECampbell | h2ofun@h2ofun.net

Boom Nutrition code 19F4Y3 $5 off 24 pack box | Bionic Runner | PowerCranks | Velotron | Spruzzamist

Lions don't lose sleep worrying about the sheep

I guess what bothers me the most is that they do not even consider the opinion of athletes or people "in the know". I'm sorry, but if I am in charge of a company or group, I'm finding the best experts I can to help with decisions. They keep everything inside, with no transparency. The kit issue was a major one and everything was done wrong there. The recent "election" basically ensured that there would be a very large possibility that things would be done in private and without input or regard from members. They no longer serve, but dictate. I understand your feelings on TeamUSA as once one is there, the multitude of under the table and hidden inflated costs are masked by the wonderful people on the team and fellow competitors. But emotion does not clear them of the terrible wrongs they do to the (paying) members.

Still havent gotten a call back yet.

Probably will on sunday

"Child Protective Services here. Sir, we understand that you are no longer capable of running a mile, so we will be taking your children into protective custody. They will be placed in foster care with a couple training for Ironman Arizona..."

---

"I'm thinking of a number between 1 and 10, and I don't know why!"

;-)

---

Dan Empfield
aka Slowman

Still waiting on a reply to e-mail I sent a few weeks ago... maybe if I send it to Dave he can route it for me?

I joke somewhat, they tend to answer me pretty quickly, but this time not so much.

I just used a USAT discount code to buy my refill of boom gel.

---

Dave Campbell | Facebook | @DaveECampbell | h2ofun@h2ofun.net

Boom Nutrition code 19F4Y3 $5 off 24 pack box | Bionic Runner | PowerCranks | Velotron | Spruzzamist

Lions don't lose sleep worrying about the sheep

Good for you. But I don't use Carb boom, and have never seen a USAT discount that I can't match or beat from another source. Even Dan said these were phantom discounts.

Well here's my story about the USAT insurance. I hit a rut in the road and went over the handlebars at the Boise HIM. Two ambulance rides, two hospitals, multiple cat-scans plus surgery and a bunch follow up medical visits later I was thankful I had really good health insurance at work because my medical costs went over $75,000. The bad news is I still found myself stuck with about $8,000 in uncovered costs and deductibles. Yes, it was a hassle to get the USAT insurance to pony up, not the least of which was getting the HIM race director to acknowledge I had crashed in his race. But in the end the USAT insurance paid every cent of my out of pocket beyond a small deductible of something like $150.

This triathlon thing is a hobby. I think of the impact on my family if I would have been hurt even worse or if I had to pay that $8,000 medical bill out of pocket. As a result, I now willingly pay my annual USAT membership fee because I know firsthand that the insurance is a very valuable benefit, when needed. Further, I've made a promise to myself to ONLY race in USAT certified events where I know if I augur again I'm not putting the finances of my family in unnecessary jeopardy.