Even for some if "only", boy would one be happy if one needed it, which hopefully is never, which allows so many to say there is no benefit.

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Dave Campbell | Facebook | @DaveECampbell | h2ofun@h2ofun.net

Boom Nutrition code 19F4Y3 $5 off 24 pack box | Bionic Runner | PowerCranks | Velotron | Spruzzamist

Lions don't lose sleep worrying about the sheep

It's like Obamacare for triathlon?

As a member of USAT, I get the satisfaction of knowing that some of my $$'s are used to support our elite athletes. In my opinion, that's good for the sport.

I also know that some of my membership $$'s are used to support our up and coming developmental athletes..again, I believe that's good for the support.

I'm not "'deflecting" anything. Those USAT initiatives are important to me....as well as insurance, discounts, rankings...etc.

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"Good genes are not a requirement, just the obsession to beat ones brains out daily"...the Griz

Paid me over $2000 after a small deductible following a crash in a race in 2015. Far as I'm concerned that made every annual due worth it. Process was straightforward and easy.

ETA this wa courtesy of gymrat, I didnt know about it until after the crash

I don't recommend crashing as a means of using the benefits but the way I see it I've gotten 44 years or so of membership dues out of it

in my opinion:

1. the $15 is several multiples of the raw cost of the insurance. but USAT vehemently disagrees with the characterization of "insurance". they call it "membership". dave obviously feels the value of the membership is worth the cost. others don't.

2. the insurance (for race directors) is proven good, and one reason RDs are fain to switch is that USAT's insurance always defends, always pays.

3. the medical payments, and i think it's capped at $75,000, is variously good or not depending on whether you have insurance. this insurance is secondary to your medical insurance, so, AFTER your medical insurance has paid everything it's going to pay you then invoke this. when i crashed in a USA cycling race, and after a LOT of hassle, which really i just went thru as an experiment, the USAC medical provision paid about $200, while I paid several thousand in deductible and co-insurance the USAC policy didn't pay. this is because the USAC policy would not pay more than the primary insurance i kept, that is, they treated my deductible and co-pay on my BX policy as it if was the same deductible/co-pay on the USAC medical paymts policy. in short, it was horrible insurance. is USAT's better? i don't know. but one thing i do know: it's REALLY good to have if you have no insurance, because then it's primary, and that's way better than nothing.

4. here's what bothers me about the $15 one-day: it's designed as if it's goal was to make sure our sport gentrifies, doesn't grow, and selectively punishes newcomers and the RDs who want to put on newcomer races. by definition newcomers aren't annual members. newcomers are likely to enter cheaper, shorter, smaller events. the incremental cost of BOTH the full-service registration company and the $15 one-day relative to the overall cost of the day is high. I feel USAT, now especially, in a declining market, should address this.

5. i don't get the sense there is any thought given to "rating" or adjusting the fee so that it's scaled to the risk. to me, we ought to consider identifying the risk. is the risk identical regardless of whether it's an in-city race or a rural race? whether it's a 12hr race, 6hr, or 1hr? i don't know. but it seems to me that's a consideration.

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Dan Empfield
aka Slowman

I assume you are an annual member. I am an annual member...paid up through 30 April 2019. The OP is asking about ONE day memberships.

Every race that I know, USAT sanctioned or not, are required to get permissions or permits either from the govt or from the private owners that own the land where the races are taking place. As condition of that, they are required to show proof of insurance. So, if every race, USAT sanctioned or not, are required to carry insurance, how is it a USAT benefit if it does go beyond what every other non-sanctioned races are doing? Your $15 USAT fees give you access to the same insurance that non-sanctioned races charge you $0 for.

Your argument can be valid if few or none of the non-sanctioned races do not carry insurance.

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My marathon PR is "under three, high twos. I had a two hour and fifty-something."

I'm not sure what's more discouraging: a member of this forum not being a USAT annual member, or the suggesting that giving to our sport's organizing body is a waste. What do you get out of it? You get to be a member our community.

Ooh, well written. I never thought about a scaled system before.

Dan, come on, 15 bucks. I see this attitude by many just like the crap going on with insurance. So many want it basically for free. So many do not want to pay anything until they get hurt, then they want the insurance, and basically for free.

Insurance is risk management. If you want what a USAT race provides with insurance, 15 bucks is cheap to pay. If you do not like it, go do another race. Pretty simple. I have plenty of races in my area I can do, both USAT and non USAT. I only do USAT races.

I know when an RD was putting on some new races I asked why not USAT. He said because folks did not want. I got him to do a FB poll, and guess what, the majority came back wanting it USAT, so he ate crow and made them USAT.

There are times you put in for the better of the whole. I sure do not like paying my taxes and see so much of it wasted, but, ....

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Dave Campbell | Facebook | @DaveECampbell | h2ofun@h2ofun.net

Boom Nutrition code 19F4Y3 $5 off 24 pack box | Bionic Runner | PowerCranks | Velotron | Spruzzamist

Lions don't lose sleep worrying about the sheep

i'm not suggesting free. i just don't think an extra $22 beyond a $45 entry for a pool swim tri is good for business. and, in fact, we have a declining market. so, i'm more interested in seeing the market grow than in trying to convince people of the value of the $22 (or whatever the charge) they're paying for active + usat.


exactly. and that's what people are doing. pretty simple. they're either going to non-sanctioned races or they're going to races out of the sport. i don't mind if you don't mind.


i think that's fine. i don't fault you that. is it okay if others choose a path different from yours?

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Dan Empfield
aka Slowman

What do you get out of it? You get to be a member our community.

Well, if we get to be a member of a community, we should all pay way more...

I get to be a member of the running community, running anything from a Turkey Trot to a marathon, without having to incur USTF fees like I do with USAT fees.

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My marathon PR is "under three, high twos. I had a two hour and fifty-something."

Come on it's 15 bucks.

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Reality we are all really *reasonably* talking about $3-$5 difference not $15. No one can say it should be free (if you do, your just being obtuse), so my guess is an reasonable person would say $8. So let's meet in the middle of what you think you should pay and what you have to pay and instead of $15 it's $11. So it's $3 or $4 more than what you think you should pay.


So then you look at issues like dan brings up. With declining numbers would they get more racers if it was $11 or $7? But $7 means they have to double entries to "make the same" that they currently value it.

So my question to Huff is what should 1 day fee be? $5 $7 $9 $12 ???

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Brooks Doughtie, M.S.
Exercise Physiology
-USAT Level II

Lots of WTC events which I have no interest. But I am not on ST all the time bashing WTC.

I support folks getting off their butts to do whatever gets them exercise.

BUT, it just gets SO old having a few do nothing but bad mouth our sport, which bad mouthing WTC or USAT or ITU implies just do something else.

Your numbers are covered by most taking one trip to starbucks, which I think is a total rip off. So we can all justify what things cost one way or another.

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Dave Campbell | Facebook | @DaveECampbell | h2ofun@h2ofun.net

Boom Nutrition code 19F4Y3 $5 off 24 pack box | Bionic Runner | PowerCranks | Velotron | Spruzzamist

Lions don't lose sleep worrying about the sheep

There are plenty of races that are not USAT that you can do. I assume they are some running races you have to be a member of USTF to compete?

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Dave Campbell | Facebook | @DaveECampbell | h2ofun@h2ofun.net

Boom Nutrition code 19F4Y3 $5 off 24 pack box | Bionic Runner | PowerCranks | Velotron | Spruzzamist

Lions don't lose sleep worrying about the sheep

i'm with you, brother. and if i was bad mouthing any of those entities you'd have a great point! what i'm suggesting is that USAT consider a variable rate for one-day membership based on risk and race cost, and i think in so doing there could be an easier path whereby an RD could see his way clear to put on his first-timer race without adding 50 percent to the base cost for insurance/registration that, in their raw form, cost a quarter of the fees charged.

i think we all want the same thing, which is to be charged an amount commensurate with the service delivered. for someone brand new to the sport, his first taste, it would be nice if it was a good taste.

the alternative, dave, is that people continue to leave, or to not ever enter in the first place. if we keep doing what we're doing, we'll keep getting what we're getting. so, i have ZERO problem with the $50 annual. i have no problem with a $15 one-day when it's warranted. i just don't think it's warranted for low-cost, first-timer events. i don't think i'm bashing when i say this; i think i'm helping when i say this.

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Dan Empfield
aka Slowman

Thank you for proving my point, which is, you can "get to be a member our community" without having to pay a $15 USAT fee

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My marathon PR is "under three, high twos. I had a two hour and fifty-something."

I totally agree that USAT needs to look at are their ways to try and get more folks into the sport, which means more money in the kitty, which means, I am not sure. :)

I am seeing USAT trying to different things to do this. One I saw was a TEamUSA ambassador program.

But, I am not convinced that lower costs will do much. Yes, folks always like to bitch about costs. But since I am racing or helping at events just about every weekend, and talk to lots of folks, I sure am not hearing anyone say they stopped doing races directly because of costs. Have you and can they prove it?
I just see the normal one and out stuff. I see too many jumping into full, getting burned out, hurt or divorced. I just see most who want to be social, like color runs,etc. and have no desire to be competitive. I see that we as adult mentors have done very little to support and encourage younger folks to be active, vs just hand them an Ipad to keep them quiet.

How many grandparents do you see racing with their grandkids as an example? I do lots of this and basically see none. Most parents I see could not run a mile to save their lives, so how are they role models?

So yes, I think any sport with declining numbers needs to see if there are ways to start growing it again. I just do not see entry fee being the biggest item but nothing wrong with us have different opinions.

Too bad we never crossed paths to race this season. Still have Donner coming up. :)

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Dave Campbell | Facebook | @DaveECampbell | h2ofun@h2ofun.net

Boom Nutrition code 19F4Y3 $5 off 24 pack box | Bionic Runner | PowerCranks | Velotron | Spruzzamist

Lions don't lose sleep worrying about the sheep

Only for scoring in prize money competitions. As for triathlons with no USAt sanctions, im sure they still need insurance to cover their ass. So some people just dont want insurance since they have their own , or are against the capitalist nature if insurance and do not want to support

adding a real world example to Dan, our local series has the Try-It Tri. as you can imagine, its an easy sprint aimed at new people. I think its .25 - 10 - 2, with the bike entirely in a park. you can sign up in the spring for around $50-$60. its popular and does draw new people. the kids version was cheaper and extremely popular.


a $15 USAT Fee is excessive for such a race. the RD knows his clientele and does not subscribe.

"Too bad we never crossed paths to race this season."

monty and i were looking at tinley's new location just this morning, at huntington lake (china peak ski resort). i've got a run problem. but i can hoof it for 2 or 3 miles, i think. it's in september. thinking about that.

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Dan Empfield
aka Slowman

Just over a year ago I did my first tri, a short sprint that was part of a local series.

I remember finding out about the fee, felt like a bit of a scam, but as I was thinking of doing the series I decided to just get the annual and be done with it.

I'm glad I did, the scoring system & the oppertunity to get a slot at nationals was well worth $50. I don't even know if similar systems exist for running, but even if they did they obiously don't include all runners.

A reduced first-year one-day fee is all good, but rolling new members in with a cheap first-year membership ($20/$25) would also mitigate the $15/race hump.

Could it be just perception? What if the cost was embedded into the race fee and then USAT members get a discount? That way, instead of an add-on fee, it's a discount, a benefit of membership. It looks more attractive that way. Every race I do outside of triathlon (running road races, trail races, big bike rides (Solvang Century, etc.) (but Masters swim meets & OW swimming being the exceptions - USMS required) has no add-on fees other than Active, should they use Active. I think because of that, most events that I enter have moved away from Active. So, all I see is the one fee I pay and I'm in. I'm doing less and less triathlons, frankly because they are so expensive.

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Proud member of FISHTWITCH: doing a bit more than fish exercise now.

Maybe its better to hide it in the cost... give discount to annual members

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2020 National Masters Champion - M40-44 - 400m IM
Canadian Record Holder 35-39M & 40-44M - 200 m Butterfly (LCM)